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08-11-2013, 01:23 PM
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#51 | | The Speed Syndicate
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Originally Posted by dared3vil0  It's usually 15% from crank to wheel...So the stock BRZ will make around 170whp, to make 200whp it would need to be rated at 230hp at the crank. | around there, but its already been done by AJR with just a tune + I/H/E
so its def do able from factory if they put a bit more effort into it
and if they advertise at as 230bhp, it would make most people go  its faster now!
a stock s2000 is 240bhp and when dyno'd they get around 189-198whp and they weight 1250kg
with 200whp and 1190kg, then it is faster than a s2000 (on paper atleast) then i dont see a reason why a lot of people should be complaining at that point if the car still costs ~30k
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08-11-2013, 01:23 PM
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#52 | | :: Sells McLarens, Not tofu :okay: ::
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Originally Posted by kchan considering the base gt86 is 1190kg, if they shave off a little more down closer to 1150kg and up the power a little (tune etc) so it produces 200whp
look at the AJR BRZ for example, tune + bolt on brought it to 200whp and its producing pretty good lap times at track days at the moment
it doesnt need to have higher HP to make a fast car around a track (look at miatas + elise) and provide a truly excellent driving machine
imagine if the STi version of the BRZ is that, it would be an awesome car and keep those who prefer NA happy + it would be tons of fun | Im pretty sure Toyota/Subaru has the resources to put on more aluminum and CF onto the car.. and make it a limited release model.
CF roof, trunk, hood, carbon buckets, aluminum suspension system, aluminum reinforcements, slap on a intake/ STi specific exhaust system/ tuned ecu and lighter forged wheels... along with reduced sound deadening, then charge $40k for it. Think of it as a present day release Integra type R.
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08-11-2013, 07:15 PM
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#53 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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It would not be hard to remove the 150lbs to get it down to the weights that are being talked about, but remember the kinds of cars that it is being compared to.
An Elise is a purpose built car, it may drive on the road but its made to dart around like a house fly. To drop an FRS to that weight without DRASTICALLY effecting the price tag it would be a matter of removing things like the stereo equipment, back seats and trim, ditch the spare and jack for run flats and a bottle of puncture sealer.
Even doing that will not put it in the same class as an Elise tho. The way the BRZ/FRS moves is so much different than the Elise. Its more numb to the road than an Elise, and for 99.9% of people who drive it this is perfect.
The car is light, nimble and reliable....its an iconic sports car layout.
A better car to compare this to would be a Miata. A "sports car" for the masses. Light, nibble and reliable makes for a drivers car. More power would be fun and can be added via the aftermarket industry.
Just looking at the short time the car has been on the market its impressive. Turbo kits, s/c kits, all kinds of factory bits. Its hard to beat a car like this. Sure you can buy faster cars but the bang for the buck in the FRS/BRZ HUGE!!
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08-11-2013, 07:44 PM
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#54 | | The Speed Syndicate
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Originally Posted by BoostedBB6 It would not be hard to remove the 150lbs to get it down to the weights that are being talked about, but remember the kinds of cars that it is being compared to.
An Elise is a purpose built car, it may drive on the road but its made to dart around like a house fly. To drop an FRS to that weight without DRASTICALLY effecting the price tag it would be a matter of removing things like the stereo equipment, back seats and trim, ditch the spare and jack for run flats and a bottle of puncture sealer.
Even doing that will not put it in the same class as an Elise tho. The way the BRZ/FRS moves is so much different than the Elise. Its more numb to the road than an Elise, and for 99.9% of people who drive it this is perfect.
The car is light, nimble and reliable....its an iconic sports car layout.
A better car to compare this to would be a Miata. A "sports car" for the masses. Light, nibble and reliable makes for a drivers car. More power would be fun and can be added via the aftermarket industry.
Just looking at the short time the car has been on the market its impressive. Turbo kits, s/c kits, all kinds of factory bits. Its hard to beat a car like this. Sure you can buy faster cars but the bang for the buck in the FRS/BRZ HUGE!! | i was phrasing it that if the BRZ/FRS/GT-86 got a small power bump + weight shaved, it would be faster if not the same as a lotus elise
for the most part, if the car got a slight power bump it would make its way to the same territory as the s2000 (which makes 189-198whp) and weighs just about the same then i think most people would stop complaining about the power
sure more power is great, but balance is even better
and i would assume that those who bought a BRZ/FRS, Miata, or elise/exige is not in it for pure power. if so, you are buying the wrong car
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08-11-2013, 08:01 PM
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#55 | | Rs has made me the woman i am today!
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^Agreed. Power isn't the strength of the 86. I bought my BRZ for the lightness and agility it has on its handling. Of course, more power is great but that will come at the sacrifice of something as with any car, whether its weight, cost, etc.
In general, I rather have a slow car that I can drive fast  | |
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08-11-2013, 08:25 PM
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#56 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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Originally Posted by kchan i was phrasing it that if the BRZ/FRS/GT-86 got a small power bump + weight shaved, it would be faster if not the same as a lotus elise
for the most part, if the car got a slight power bump it would make its way to the same territory as the s2000 (which makes 189-198whp) and weighs just about the same then i think most people would stop complaining about the power
sure more power is great, but balance is even better
and i would assume that those who bought a BRZ/FRS, Miata, or elise/exige is not in it for pure power. if so, you are buying the wrong car | A small power bump and drop in weight will not bring it into the same class as an Elise. There is FAR more to the car than just the numbers on a spec sheet.
Look at Team VCMC with there FRS track car. At the level they are at with the car now they are still in running with lotus' that are just running tires.
There car is stripped, turboed and R&D'ed to the max to make it around corners faster than any other BRZ/FRS out there.
Besides, you can not compare those cars. They are completely different, drive different and are made for different purposes.
Also, take a look at Team VCMC. They have now killed 4 sets of CV's in there car. This is something to keep in mind if there were a factory turbo car. It would have to become heavier with the addition of a cast manifold (they would not go factory tubular due to cost/longevity), turbo, and beefed up drivetrain.
Adding a turbo to a factory car is no simple task for a manufacturer. They have to consider the life span of the car. Does it fit with the times (car already requires premium fuel, add a turbo and you will see a decline in fuel mileage and probably an increase in fuel demand aka 93 and up octane).
This all adds significantly to the cost of the car, the weight of the car and its balance as a drivers car.
Sure, now it has more power but your weight balance takes a hit, your weight goes up, cost of owning operating goes up, wear and tear goes up, maintenance goes up....I think you get the idea here.
The FRS/BRZ has a lot of positives with few negatives. Like I said, if you purchased the car for power you purchased the wrong car. Even with the addition of a turbo there are factory cars out there that will walk all over it. You buy this kind of car for the sheer enjoyment of driving, the runs up the mountain with the stereo off and the windows open. This car is made to have A LOT of fun for not much $$....more power = more $$ = less fun
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08-11-2013, 09:17 PM
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#57 | | The Speed Syndicate
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Originally Posted by BoostedBB6 A small power bump and drop in weight will not bring it into the same class as an Elise. There is FAR more to the car than just the numbers on a spec sheet.
Look at Team VCMC with there FRS track car. At the level they are at with the car now they are still in running with lotus' that are just running tires.
There car is stripped, turboed and R&D'ed to the max to make it around corners faster than any other BRZ/FRS out there.
Besides, you can not compare those cars. They are completely different, drive different and are made for different purposes.
Also, take a look at Team VCMC. They have now killed 4 sets of CV's in there car. This is something to keep in mind if there were a factory turbo car. It would have to become heavier with the addition of a cast manifold (they would not go factory tubular due to cost/longevity), turbo, and beefed up drivetrain.
Adding a turbo to a factory car is no simple task for a manufacturer. They have to consider the life span of the car. Does it fit with the times (car already requires premium fuel, add a turbo and you will see a decline in fuel mileage and probably an increase in fuel demand aka 93 and up octane).
This all adds significantly to the cost of the car, the weight of the car and its balance as a drivers car.
Sure, now it has more power but your weight balance takes a hit, your weight goes up, cost of owning operating goes up, wear and tear goes up, maintenance goes up....I think you get the idea here.
The FRS/BRZ has a lot of positives with few negatives. Like I said, if you purchased the car for power you purchased the wrong car. Even with the addition of a turbo there are factory cars out there that will walk all over it. You buy this kind of car for the sheer enjoyment of driving, the runs up the mountain with the stereo off and the windows open. This car is made to have A LOT of fun for not much $$....more power = more $$ = less fun | I still stand by my opinion that it will be faster than a lotus Elise based on the actual lap times
I wouldn't say it's faster than an exige, but Elise.. Yea
In the end, the brz/frs is a really good car with a beautiful platform to work on
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08-11-2013, 09:33 PM
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#58 | | I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
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Originally Posted by BoostedBB6 BRZ is DESIGNED to be a balanced knife of a car, not a brute that overpowers other cars.
It was "underpowered" but that brought out other skills in the driver to make up for the lack of power. An underpowered car is a great way to learn how to drive a car properly.
Adding a turbo to a car like this will only result in killing off the reason this car was even made.
the lack of power brings out the skill in the driver. | I don't think most people are asking for a 'brute' that will overpower everything else. While I'm personally not complaining about the power, having to drive a car at 9-10 tenths to maximize its balance and chassis potential is not practical for the street or daily use. You shouldn't need to be a skilled professional driver to the most enjoyment out of this car. I think what most would like to see is a bump in power to give it some extra ooomph, nothing earth shattering. Right now the platform just feels a bit neutered with an underpowered motor.
I don't think adding a turbo and associated bits will destroy the reason the car was made. Even then, there are other ways to add power without turbo/FI. In fact I'd rather the extra power not come from a turbo just to make the power more readily accessible and the car easier to drive. Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostedBB6 2JZGE swap with ITB's....I believe there is a swap kit to fit a 2J in there. If I picked up a FRS it would be 2J swapped ASAP. | For somebody who is all on about how a small turbo will screw with balance and handling, this doesn't make a lick of sense at all. Add a huge lump of an inline 6 that is both long and tall  Quote:
Originally Posted by kchan for the most part, if the car got a slight power bump it would make its way to the same territory as the s2000 (which makes 189-198whp) and weighs just about the same then i think most people would stop complaining about the power | I agree completely. How popular would the S2000 be if it came with the ITR's B18c5 good for 200hp?
The GT86 is all about balance and enjoyment as it currently stands. With an extra 50hp you give up a bit of balance (or maybe not) and can get a lot more enjoyment out of it IMO. Sure cost to buy and cost to operate will go up, but those looking for more power through the aftermarket will be spending that money anyways. With modern ECU tuning, no OEM car requires 93+ octane to run properly. Using the VCMC car as a basis of comparison is irrelevant IMO. I don't think the majority are asking Toyota/Subaru to pump out a 350hp beast and expect to run reliably like the NA variants. 250hp would be enough to make 90% of those currently complaining happy, and that is more than within reason for these guys to engineer IMO especially with their respective backgrounds.
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08-11-2013, 09:51 PM
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#59 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Originally Posted by Euro7r ^Agreed. Power isn't the strength of the 86. I bought my BRZ for the lightness and agility it has on its handling. Of course, more power is great but that will come at the sacrifice of something as with any car, whether its weight, cost, etc.
In general, I rather have a slow car that I can drive fast | See i always wanted a car that was faster, always had to be be faster, nothing else mattered to me... I finally get something that's quick (I DIDN'T say fast) and it's not all it was cracked up to be... I can't use the power of the Mustang on a daily basis like i could when i had the FG2 (Si), if i hypothetically go WOT in it for a little fun merging onto the highway, it's 3-4 seconds and you're approaching 40 over (lose your car territory).
While it's just a personal example/analogy, i feel the same would apply to the BRZ/FRS; if you had the same car with wider tires, better suspension, and 260-300hp, you could never use the power in the same way someone can use the current BRZ/FRS, try ringing out that hypothetical power on a mountain road and you're in dangerous territory... Drive it at the same speed you would a "normal" BRZ/FRS and it would be boring. There's something to be said about a "slow car [you] can drive fast", as opposed to a "fast car you can only drive slow[ly]".
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08-11-2013, 09:55 PM
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#60 | | I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
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^all the M3's, 335's, WRX, STi's, Evo's, running around beg to differ.
You get that Mustang power into your Si and I'm pretty sure the experience would be quite different.
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08-11-2013, 10:06 PM
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#61 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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You missed my point completely... My point was it's way more fun to go fast in a slow car, then slow in a fast car. Oh, and a 335i (stock) isn't all that fast...
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08-11-2013, 10:15 PM
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#62 | | I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
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No I totally got your point, and I understand it as well. But it's even more fun to ACTUALLY go fast in a slow car, instead of just feeling like you are going fast in a slow car. You can just as easily get your slow car into 40+ over the limit, it just takes a few seconds extra 
You can't directly compare your experience with your Mustang and its power in a bigger number platform vs. your Si and its lack of power/torque in a smaller more nimble platform. So as I said if you had even a bit of the Mustang power into your Si, I think your experience would be vastly different from what you've described.
And also, if Toyota/Subaru can make the GT86 almost as fast a stock 335, we wouldn't even be bothering with this discussion. If you're saying the 335 isn't all that fast, I'd hate to think what you really thought of your Si
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08-11-2013, 10:44 PM
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#63 | | Revscene.net has a homepage?!
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Originally Posted by dared3vil0 You missed my point completely... My point was it's way more fun to go fast in a slow car, then slow in a fast car. Oh, and a 335i (stock) isn't all that fast... | 300 by 300. more than you can afford pal..lol
335xi stock is pretty damn fast, not sure what you are talking about.
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08-11-2013, 10:54 PM
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#64 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Originally Posted by acurael 300 by 300. more than you can afford to spend to stay financially "intelligent" pal..lol | Was i talking about a different model 335? Nope. Just googled 2012 335i specs and this came up: 2012 BMW 335 Overview
7.2 seconds to 60 is slow as fuck.
Oh, btw, I fixed that quote for you.
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08-11-2013, 11:02 PM
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#65 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Those specs are fucked. That can't be right.
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98 technoviolet M3/2/5 Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever Westopher is correct. | Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82 seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked | Quote:
Originally Posted by punkwax Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct. | | 
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08-11-2013, 11:02 PM
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#66 | | #savethemanuals
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That's gotta be wrong. Maybe they were thinking of the 320i. A stock 2012 335i can break 5 seconds based on the times listed online.
Last edited by Energy; 08-11-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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08-11-2013, 11:03 PM
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#67 | | :: Sells McLarens, Not tofu :okay: ::
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what... 7.2? no way...
i swear they are in the 5 sec range... that twin scroll turbo N55 is quite powerful. 2012 BMW 335i First Test - Motor Trend
twin clutch 8 speed is no slouch...
Im pretty sure the upper Hp class would be covered by the upcoming model that is slotted above the FRS
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08-11-2013, 11:03 PM
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#68 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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Everywhere I look its 4.4-4.8
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98 technoviolet M3/2/5 Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever Westopher is correct. | Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82 seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked | Quote:
Originally Posted by punkwax Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct. | | |
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08-11-2013, 11:05 PM
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#69 | | Revscene.net has a homepage?!
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Originally Posted by dared3vil0 Was i talking about a different model 335? Nope. Just googled 2012 335i specs and this came up: 2012 BMW 335 Overview
7.2 seconds to 60 is slow as fuck.
Oh, btw, I fixed that quote for you. | Lol. look around google. that page is wrong. Its more like 5.2-5.4 seconds. The 335xi is rated a bit faster than 335i. but neither is 7.2
You're a fool! I just drove one today. wanna race stang boy?
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08-11-2013, 11:06 PM
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#70 | | :: Sells McLarens, Not tofu :okay: ::
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awww shiett man.. i shoulda bought a 335i to race daredevil0 for the pink slip to his mustang 
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08-11-2013, 11:06 PM
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#71 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Yup, did some more googling, they are more like 5.0-5.4 my argument was based off that one page so yeah. Not mah fault.
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08-11-2013, 11:08 PM
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#72 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Originally Posted by tofu1413 awww shiett man.. i shoulda bought a 335i to race daredevil0 for the pink slip to his mustang |  Fiat 500 Abarth Vs. Mustang for pinks? (straight line only. ))) )
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08-11-2013, 11:09 PM
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#73 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Originally Posted by acurael You're a fool! I just drove one today. wanna race stang boy? | What the fuck is wrong with you? grow up.
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08-11-2013, 11:10 PM
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#74 | | :: Sells McLarens, Not tofu :okay: ::
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Originally Posted by dared3vil0 Fiat 500 Abarth Vs. Mustang for pinks? (straight line only. ))) ) | Lemme get my Magneti Marelli ecu and the alcohol injection kit first
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08-11-2013, 11:12 PM
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#75 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Originally Posted by tofu1413 Lemme get my Magneti Marelli ecu and the alcohol injection kit first | Deal.
I get to procharge it or throw a 50 shot in first though. 
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