UBC Vantage College

[Marshall Placid]

Originally Posted by TatsuyaKataoka

Post secondary institutions use sky-high international tuition to subsidize tuition for domestic students. It's the reason why we don't have five-digit tuition like in the states (Exhibit A), despite dwindling funding from Ottawa and the provinces.

That is correct.

Pros and cons.

Pros and cons.

--------------

On another note:
Perhaps, this UBC Vantage program will have printed degrees that stipulate that they graduated from "UBC Vantage" instead of "UBC".

This should be on their degree/diploma when they graduate, if UBC has not yet planned on doing this.

This will help in not devaluing the past, current, and future graduands of the UBC (the regular, English taught degrees).

[Carl Johnson]

how is this going to affect Langara? pretty sure it will get hit pretty hard in the pocketbook if it has a lot of international students studying there.

[dinosaur]

Originally Posted by Marshall Placid

That is correct.


On another note:
Perhaps, this UBC Vantage program will have printed degrees that stipulate that they graduated from "UBC Vantage" instead of "UBC".

This should be on their degree/diploma when they graduate, if UBC has not yet planned on doing this.

This will help in not devaluing the past, current, and future graduands of the UBC (the regular, English taught degrees).

I doubt it if the student is transferring to UBC proper after 12 months.

My SFU degree doesn't say "bitch transferred from Kwantlen" on it...

I view this more as a "Here at UBC, our professors are tired of students not being able to speak the god damn language I teach in but I still want their money" program. And, because we are all 'hug-a-tree-save-the-whales' in BC, we need to add a fake university to teach said students before we put them in real university because telling them "NO" when they fail the language test, makes us feel bad.

My issue is, students who can't speak either of the two official languages of Canada shouldn't be in our university system to begin with.

[bing]

These students can pay me a couple g's and I'll write the LPI for them

[bing]

Originally Posted by Marshall Placid

That is correct.

Pros and cons.

Pros and cons.

--------------

On another note:
Perhaps, this UBC Vantage program will have printed degrees that stipulate that they graduated from "UBC Vantage" instead of "UBC".

This should be on their degree/diploma when they graduate, if UBC has not yet planned on doing this.

This will help in not devaluing the past, current, and future graduands of the UBC (the regular, English taught degrees).

This is unnecessary. The program is just for first year courses. If they fail to adapt by year 2, they wouldn't even make it to graduation.

[Marshall Placid]

Originally Posted by bing

This is unnecessary. The program is just for first year courses. If they fail to adapt by year 2, they wouldn't even make it to graduation.

Ah I see.

So, after the first year courses, they transfer into the regular courses.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

I think you guys using the whole official language is X & Y should rethink your strategy.

with enough social and political pressure... a stroke of a pen will all it takes to bust your guys's argument.

quoted myself from the mcdix thread... cuz it's applicable to this thread as well lol.


if you don't include ppl that aren't fluent in english, you exclude like 95.17% of the world... which is a lot of people. that's very ignorant... and arrogant lol.


instead of QQing about this and that... you should realise they are doing what's right, they are evolving with the times. you have to change your system and ways constantly through your life.

shit changes, you must change too.


I think you guys focus too much on your own cultural pride and egos.

everyone knows the education system is a business first. that's already been established, so this move isn't a surprise at all.

those of you who think it lowers your own degree or somehow makes your efforts to get into UBC less meaningful or something... well yeah it does, and guess what... fuck you, no one cares, get over yourself.

I seriously don't think making people learn english is a big deal nor will it make any significant impact. it only deters people and funnels potential bright minded people to other places. from what i've seen... 12-13 years ago when I was doing the LPI and all that crap, a lot of "hongers" and "fobs" i knew that "grew up here" since they were like grade 6-7, failed the LPI many times. some never even got the score needed to get into UBC even after taking it like fuckign 5 times or somthing. but u know what, they were a helluva lot smarter than most people i met at UBC lol... you deny someone that excels in swimming because they cannot climb a hill?


Looking down on someone cuz they can't speak english or refuse to, or holding them to some subjective requirement (fluent in english to a certain level), basically stems from the same area as racism and bigotry.

you may speak english, but they probably speak at least two languages. and if they speak mandarin, that's 3x as many people they can communicate with on this planet vs yourself. and they probably speak more than just mandarin. (native english speakers make up less than 5.6% of the world, and mandarin about 14%)

so it is actually yourselves that you should look down on, and realise that you're only bitching because, it's the only thing you have. and of course you won't admit it but, you are not as superior as you thought you were.

Think of it this way, UBC is finally getting over it's own ego. realising the strict english requirement doesn't help them academically, but it was more of an image thing. an ego thing.

[hotshot1]

^^ That was epic

[Energy]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

those of you who think it lowers your own degree or somehow makes your efforts to get into UBC less meaningful or something... well yeah it does, and guess what... fuck you, no one cares, get over yourself.

This move does not lower the value of a UBC degree at all. People who are part of this program are just as smart or might even be smarter than all the other students - their English just isn't up to par and the program will help change that.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

^
i was referring to guys like marshal placid, the tone and content of his posts obviously displays the fact that he feels it.

and he is not unique, there must be others that feel that way too.

they're not targeting the ppl that get in through this program, they're targeting themselves, and focusing on what "they lose". a selfish and egotistical approach. a stupid one, because, they still have yet to realise that their degree was worthless to begin with ahahhahaha

[Gululu]

meanwhile at SFU... you can buy an 'A-' grade for merely $650 cdn

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Gululu

meanwhile at SFU... you can buy an 'A-' grade for merely $650 cdn

On the surface, at least, this guy is only billing himself as a tutor, so I wouldn't call that buying a grade per se. Additionally, I dunno about the linguistics and business courses, but for the other courses, they should still have final exams that are probably worth at least 20 - 30% of the term, so the student would still have to know his stuff well enough to get a decent grade.

[threezero]

Originally Posted by Traum

On the surface, at least, this guy is only billing himself as a tutor, so I wouldn't call that buying a grade per se. Additionally, I dunno about the linguistics and business courses, but for the other courses, they should still have final exams that are probably worth at least 20 - 30% of the term, so the student would still have to know his stuff well enough to get a decent grade.

I guess you don't read chinese. some of them saids guarantee A- B+ and it is possible to have someone else take the exam for you in university.....

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

quoted myself from the mcdix thread... cuz it's applicable to this thread as well lol.


if you don't include ppl that aren't fluent in english, you exclude like 95.17% of the world... which is a lot of people. that's very ignorant... and arrogant lol.






instead of QQing about this and that... you should realise they are doing what's right, they are evolving with the times. you have to change your system and ways constantly through your life.

shit changes, you must change too.


I think you guys focus too much on your own cultural pride and egos.

everyone knows the education system is a business first. that's already been established, so this move isn't a surprise at all.

those of you who think it lowers your own degree or somehow makes your efforts to get into UBC less meaningful or something... well yeah it does, and guess what... fuck you, no one cares, get over yourself.

I seriously don't think making people learn english is a big deal nor will it make any significant impact. it only deters people and funnels potential bright minded people to other places. from what i've seen... 12-13 years ago when I was doing the LPI and all that crap, a lot of "hongers" and "fobs" i knew that "grew up here" since they were like grade 6-7, failed the LPI many times. some never even got the score needed to get into UBC even after taking it like fuckign 5 times or somthing. but u know what, they were a helluva lot smarter than most people i met at UBC lol... you deny someone that excels in swimming because they cannot climb a hill?


Looking down on someone cuz they can't speak english or refuse to, or holding them to some subjective requirement (fluent in english to a certain level), basically stems from the same area as racism and bigotry.

you may speak english, but they probably speak at least two languages. and if they speak mandarin, that's 3x as many people they can communicate with on this planet vs yourself. and they probably speak more than just mandarin. (native english speakers make up less than 5.6% of the world, and mandarin about 14%)

so it is actually yourselves that you should look down on, and realise that you're only bitching because, it's the only thing you have. and of course you won't admit it but, you are not as superior as you thought you were.

Think of it this way, UBC is finally getting over it's own ego. realising the strict english requirement doesn't help them academically, but it was more of an image thing. an ego thing.

some of this is about protectionism, other countries do it, so why can't we? The biggest culprits of protectionism is people from these other countries that want to study here.

It's a culture thing, we live in a globalized world, but it doesn't mean we cant with-hold some of our values and protect some of our culture (for lack of a better word). So what if it's the "only thing" we have, that forces us to bitch even more, because hey, in North America, we still have the numbers when it comes to people that speak english, so who cares if we are ignoring 95% of the world, we're only ignoring a very small % of North Americans. and the majority of people in North America speak english, so shouldn't the students be changing to conform and adapt to the majority in the country that THEY chose to go to? Maybe these other countries have too much cultural pride and EGOs.

At the end of the day, if it's about spots being available and # of kids graduating, I rather have my kids going to these schools than some rich foreign kid if its either my kid or theirs.

I really have no problems with this new program as it will bring in money, but if these students are able to transfer to second year without passing necessary english requirements, then hey, I may have a problem with it.

Think of how people from hong kong feel about mainlanders coming in and taking up all the land and resources and goods and leaving no products for the locals. Sure some businesses are happy, but the majority are just pissed. People will get angry if it negatively affects them personally, right now it doesn't for me, but I do remember the days of university.

I didn't like having students that couldnt speak english in my group projects in university. They contributed nothing, except their money, and contrary to what you said, the majority of them are stupid compared to the other students. They had to study much longer hours just to get the same grades as the non-fobs in class, and we're talking about finance or business classes here where it's mostly calculations. Sometimes I even wonder how the fck these people get in? and then I realize, ohh yeah, $$ and personal hookups. But yes, degrees are stupid to begin with.

In the end, it's my interests vs theirs, and I will always choose mine.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by threezero

I guess you don't read chinese. some of them saids guarantee A- B+ and it is possible to have someone else take the exam for you in university.....

Don't they check for photo IDs anymore during university final exams? When I was going through college and university, the TA or prof would come over during the final exam and do that. Also, for some of the 2nd year courses and especially for 3rd year courses and beyond, class sizes aren't that big anymore, so I find it kind of hard to have someone write the final exam for you.

I'm not saying these measures are un-defeatable. And of course I am aware that widespread cheating exists, especially at SFU. (Didn't a whole bunch of business students get caught cheating a few years ago there?)

[yray]

^

Originally Posted by Gululu

meanwhile at SFU... you can buy an 'A-' grade for merely $650 cdn

My Ad has been spotted

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by yray

My Ad has been spotted

picturing your avatar as i'm reading this

[TatsuyaKataoka]

Originally Posted by TatsuyaKataoka

Post secondary institutions use sky-high international tuition to subsidize tuition for domestic students. It's the reason why we don't have five-digit tuition like in the states (Exhibit A), despite dwindling funding from Ottawa and the provinces.

To reiterate this point, my uncle on my mom's side wrote to me a few days ago. He lives in Maryland and does R&D for a biotech company, and he's feeling the pinch sending his kids to college.

The cost of education in the US is getting absolutely insane. It is hitting hard those who are in the middle like us. The rich can afford the cost ( $50,000 - 60,000/ year) for the top schools. The poor can get assistantship/grant/scholarship. Those with middle income have to cough up their hard earned money if they want their kids to go into the top schools.

He's not kidding either. Assuming you dorm, the cost of education can easily hit $50k+ for places like Cal, UCLA, NYU and Harvard. Even the state colleges are expensive, $15k+ easy. And that's if you have in-state residency.

Yeah, I know. He does R&D and he calls himself "middle income"? Remember that raising a family is like a money sink.

[Traum]

Top schools costing a fortune isn't anything new. Ivy League schools are elite institutions that cater pretty much only to the super rich and/or powerful. (Incidentally, it also seems to have become the de facto training ground for children of the rich and/or politically powerful Mainland Chinese bureaucrats.)

On the other hand, I would argue that state schools being $15k+/yr isn't that expensive. Depending on how many semesters that $15k is for, you're looking at $5k - $7.5k per semester. The UWashington example that you cited is only $12k+/yr for WA residents. It's still a lot of money and more expensive than what we have here, but I wouldn't quite call that out of reach or expensive yet. (For comparison, tuition at UBC starts at ~$160/credit, and SFU at ~$170/credit. So it comes to about ~$3k/semester for tuition only when you include other fees and stuff.)

[TatsuyaKataoka]

Originally Posted by Traum

The UWashington example that you cited is only $12k+/yr for WA residents. It's still a lot of money and more expensive than what we have here, but I wouldn't quite call that out of reach or expensive yet. (For comparison, tuition at UBC starts at ~$160/credit, and SFU at ~$170/credit. So it comes to about ~$3k/semester for tuition only when you include other fees and stuff.)

Assuming 15 credits a semester, UW is $800/credit. That's 5 times what we pay here. Yeah it's not HOLY SHIT IVY LEAGUE expensive, but it's clear that students in Canada are much better off financially if they choose to get an education. Reading the stories of students crushed with loan debt out of college is all the proof you need.

I can't remember the thread, but there was this one girl who had dual citizenship (so she pays domestic tuition in Canada), and said it's cheaper to go to UBC than community college in Portland.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by TatsuyaKataoka

Assuming 15 credits a semester, UW is $800/credit. That's 5 times what we pay here. Yeah it's not HOLY SHIT IVY LEAGUE expensive, but it's clear that students in Canada are much better off financially if they choose to get an education. Reading the stories of students crushed with loan debt out of college is all the proof you need.

I can't remember the thread, but there was this one girl who had dual citizenship (so she pays domestic tuition in Canada), and said it's cheaper to go to UBC than community college in Portland.

Correction here -- the UWashington tuition is ~$12k/yr (not per semester), so the per credit tution works out to $12k / 30 credits = $400/credit. It's about 2.5x more expensive than what we pay, which is why I said it isn't cheap, but I wouldn't quite call it expensive yet.

I 100% agree with you that students in both Canada and the US are getting hit hard by student loan debts, but the student loans themselves aren't the only cause to the problem. To me, the bigger reason is that a ton of university graduates are either working menial jobs after they graduate, or they are unable to find work at all. We can probably write a big long essay to explore the reasons for this, and I will just sum it up with a big sweeping generalization that too many people are graduating with degrees where the cost of their education far outweighs what society will pay for people with those talents.

[dinosaur]

The bigger problem is student attending Uni to major in "English" or "Business" or "PoliSci" on student loan only to walk out and work as a teller for 12$/hr because they just assumed someone would hire them. We have several generation of 25 year olds with $50k of debt. Not the best start in life.

Society puts too much pressure on "going to university" and you are looked down upon if you do something different. For 80% of people its bullshit.

Just watched the news last night. All 19 graduates from the welding program at BCIT have been offered $100K/year with 54 more spots to fill.

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

Just watched the news last night. All 19 graduates from the welding program at BCIT have been offered $100K/year with 54 more spots to fill.

dayum!
how long does that program take to complete...time to start thinking about a change in fields

[dinosaur]

Originally Posted by GLOW

dayum!
how long does that program take to complete...time to start thinking about a change in fields

I thought the same thing....I remember talking to someone who I *think* said the program was 9 months.

Everyone is heading to Kitimat for work....BCIT said nobody has to apply for jobs anymore. Companies just show up at the school and take everyone.

[TatsuyaKataoka]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

The bigger problem is student attending Uni to major in "English" or "Business" or "PoliSci" on student loan only to walk out and work as a teller for 12$/hr because they just assumed someone would hire them. We have several generation of 25 year olds with $50k of debt. Not the best start in life.

Society puts too much pressure on "going to university" and you are looked down upon if you do something different. For 80% of people its bullshit.

Just watched the news last night. All 19 graduates from the welding program at BCIT have been offered $100K/year with 54 more spots to fill.

To add to your point, there is a social stigma against getting into the trades or getting your hands dirty, ESPECIALLY with the immigrant communities in Vancouver. Chief offenders are Chinese, Koreans, Indians and Iranians. They push and push their kids to get top marks in high school and to go to a good university for their family's prestige, not because it's what the kid wants. If you don't like it, you get disowned or kicked out.

I'm doing a BSc in computer science because I enjoy the study of computability and computational theory. I believe I have the intellectual curiosity and discipline to successfully meet the academic rigor of the program. For those kind of people, a university degree might not be a bad idea. University has expanded my horizons and made me a better critical thinker. The brilliant minds I have met and am sure to meet, from instructors and TAs to classmates will benefit me intellectually and financially for years to come.

The point is, this was my decision. This is a free country, you can make whatever decisions you want that you think are best for you. Unfortunately, not everyone sees life this way.

As an end note: CS graduates from UBC and SFU are making $60K/year out of school. They can make even more if they start a business on the side or move to the US. Programming can be considered a trade, a skill that anyone can learn (and I highly recommend everyone try programming!), but a university degree is a prerequisite for these kind of jobs unless you have hella connections or you're Mark Zuckerberg.

Edit: Obviously, university hasn't helped my proofreading.