REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events

Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-21-2013, 07:26 PM   #1
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: bedroom
Posts: 3,111
Thanked 3,491 Times in 1,176 Posts
Health Canada to provide heroin to select addicts

Wanna get hiiiiiigh?

Reality check: Is Health Canada giving addicts free heroin? - National | Globalnews.ca

Quote:

Reality check: Is Health Canada giving addicts free heroin?

The short answer is yes. Kinda: Health Canada has approved funding for medically administered heroin for 16 addicts – and only these 16 – under its Special Access Program. The program’s designed to provide nonmarketed drugs to people suffering from “serious or life-threatening conditions when conventional therapies have failed, are unsuitable, or unavailable.”

It has since been slammed by Health Minister Rona Ambrose on the grounds that its decision contradicts Conservative government policy.

Health Canada made its decision based, for all appearances, on the evidence available: The patients in question are the hardest-core heroin addicts out there. Conventional treatments haven’t worked. They’re participating in a study designed to assess whether hydromorphone (another potent opioid, present in prescription drugs such as Dilaudid and Hydromorph Contin) is as effective in treating heroin addiction as the active ingredient in heroin itself.

The SALOME (Study to Assess Longer-term Opioid Medication Effectiveness) study’s not yet complete. But in the meantime, doctors say they need a viable way to treat participants who’ve completed their 13-month trials and remain very, very dependent on heroin.

The idea is to administer – in safe doses, in a medical environment and under close observation – an illicit substance these people would otherwise break the law to obtain. Best-case scenario: You stabilize and, eventually, quit.

Several doctors, including Vancouver Coastal Health’s Chief Medical Officer, submitted 1,000-plus pages of studies and missives as part of an application requesting injectable heroin prescriptions for 35 people.

Health Canada approved 16.

Is it ideal? Hardly. But traditional solutions haven’t worked so far.

In her indictment of her department’s decision, Ambrose said she plans to “ensure this does not happen again.”

Giving addicts this heroin, she argued, is “not to treat an underlying medical condition, but simply to allow them to continue to have access to heroin for their addiction even though other safe treatments for heroin addiction, such as methadone, are available.”

She’s right: Methadone maintenance is one of the most commonly used treatments for serious opioid addiction. In some places across the country, it’s insufficiently accessible – especially now that many of those who need it aren’t addicted to illicit heroin, but to licit (highly addictive, frequently abused or misused) prescription opioids.

But the addicts getting this heroin were by definition ones methadone wouldn’t help: They’ve already tried.

It isn’t clear whether the Minister intends to overturn Health Canada’s approval in this instance, or prevent its recurrence in future. Her office says all options are on the table.

If she does, argues Pivot Legal lawyer Scott Bernstein, who represents several of these patients, “the Minister’s action will put lives at risk.”

Bernstein also notes that Ambrose’s intention to tell her department what drugs to approve runs contrary to the practices of her predecessor: Conservative Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq spoke out against government interference in drug policy when she refused to block generic OxyContin last year.

“I want to be crystal clear,” Aglukkaq said at the time. “I do not believe that politicians should pick and choose which drugs get approved.”
So....16 super-duper intense chasers of the dragon will be getting high via Health Canada.

Some say this is a good thing....HC can help 16 "hard-core" heroin addicts continue their addiction? or get clean? and others disagree for obvious reasons.

I can imagine so of you have some pretty strong opinions. Is this where people said In-Site (albeit a different governing body) would lead to...or does this help junkies? I guess you can make the comparison to those shelters that hand out alcohol in small doses.

It doesn't appear the goal of HC is to get these addict clean...
Advertisement
dinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 07:36 PM   #2
Proud to be called a RS Regular!
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VAN/RMD
Posts: 105
Thanked 119 Times in 29 Posts
this may sound mean and immoral but...

why don't we just let these junkies die?
It's not like society needs them anyway, they are just leeching off of tax payers money/ creating crimes/ increasing blood borne infection, and so on

Instead of spending money on people with no real contribution to society, the money should go elsewhere...
Stiig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 07:44 PM   #3
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: bedroom
Posts: 3,111
Thanked 3,491 Times in 1,176 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiig View Post
this may sound mean and immoral but...

why don't we just let these junkies die?
It's not like society needs them anyway, they are just leeching off of tax payers money/ creating crimes/ increasing blood borne infection, and so on

Instead of spending money on people with no real contribution to society, the money should go elsewhere...
I think many many people share these same sentiments. Let's really look at it:

-these people don't pay taxes
-these people are not contributing members to society
-these people most likely live on social assistance that our tax payments cover
-these people have a slim to nil possibility of ever changing the above
-these people are now participating in another socially funded program that we are paying for

Is the money going into this program worth it? What will we, as Canadians, learn from this? Will this contribute anything to medical research?

Ever day we hear about cuts to this and cuts to that. Long waits for medical treatments, etc. Is this really the right way to be spending money that could be directed elsewhere?

I really don't see what HC is providing heroin. Is it that they can not afford to buy it off the street anymore? Its not like they are doing this to put the dealers out of business.
dinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-21-2013, 07:54 PM   #4
I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
 
Bouncing Bettys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bootyville
Posts: 3,694
Thanked 1,854 Times in 585 Posts
I am for the legalization off all drugs while drugs like heroin are controlled and administered to addicts at safe sites under supervision. They receive a safe, clean product while the need to resort to crime in order to fuel their habit is reduced. Saves health and policing costs. The cost of these sites could easily be covered by requiring pharmacutical companies to pay a portion of the massive increase in profits received from the legalization of drugs. Of course efforts should be made to get addicts off drugs but you can't force it.
__________________
LEAFS!
Bouncing Bettys is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-21-2013, 08:16 PM   #5
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: bedroom
Posts: 3,111
Thanked 3,491 Times in 1,176 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
I am for the legalization off all drugs while drugs like heroin are controlled and administered to addicts at safe sites under supervision. They receive a safe, clean product while the need to resort to crime in order to fuel their habit is reduced. Saves health and policing costs. The cost of these sites could easily be covered by requiring pharmacutical companies to pay a portion of the massive increase in profits received from the legalization of drugs. Of course efforts should be made to get addicts off drugs but you can't force it.
This sounds like a logistical nightmare and something that would never happen.

Though I understand a system where all drugs were legal and controlled by the gov't could be beneficial to some aspects of society, it wouldn't be good for every day, non-drug users. I can't handle the crackhead I see now....couldn't imagine what the streets would look like when it would be deemed socially acceptable.
dinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 08:23 PM   #6
Cant Stop Modding Fat Cars w/ Cheap Pasts!
 
StylinRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CELICAland
Posts: 23,046
Thanked 9,234 Times in 3,293 Posts
Some european countries do this (there are 2 i believe) and of those addicts which receive heroin they are fully functioning adults who work, pay taxes, have families and for all intents and purposes lead 'normal' lives

i know switzerland is one of them but i cant recall the other anyway they were facing a epidemic of users and crime and after prescribing heroin the majority of their troubles turned around

iirc there were documentaries posted in rs in the past do a search



edit: didnt realize the Brits used to prescribe heroin also here read the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment

and here's a reuters article about some british research http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...64R1OZ20100528

Last edited by StylinRed; 09-21-2013 at 08:32 PM.
StylinRed is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-21-2013, 08:28 PM   #7
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: bedroom
Posts: 3,111
Thanked 3,491 Times in 1,176 Posts
I'd like to see these 16 participants....what makes them better/worse than the others who applied for the program.

Are they functioning addict? Or are we talking about the "hasting's shuffle" type addicts?

Maybe there were chosen because they had the best chance to be functioning...
dinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 08:32 PM   #8
I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
 
Bouncing Bettys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bootyville
Posts: 3,694
Thanked 1,854 Times in 585 Posts
In countries where once illegal drugs have been legalized, their use has seen little to no increase, in fact you often see a reduction. You are no more likely to try something just because its legal. People won't flock to heroin administration sites for free heroin just becaus they can. You eliminate many of the falsehoods, stigmas, and misconceptions surrounding various drugs through legalization. People will be better informed and should be able to decide for themselves.
__________________
LEAFS!
Bouncing Bettys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 08:46 PM   #9
WOAH! i think Vtec just kicked in!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,687
Thanked 730 Times in 294 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiig View Post
this may sound mean and immoral but...

why don't we just let these junkies die?
It's not like society needs them anyway, they are just leeching off of tax payers money/ creating crimes/ increasing blood borne infection, and so on

Instead of spending money on people with no real contribution to society, the money should go elsewhere...


Some of these junkies didn't grow up in proper neighbourhoods with a proper family that supported them. They were literally BORN into a life destined to fail.

Abusive parents, drunk parents, parents that were 14 years old when they had them. parents that were never around. mother was probably a prostitute. never had christmas presents. or never had a normal childhood. couldn't afford clothing, food, shelter, which lead them to hang around the wrong crowds etc. theres a whole bunch of other social issues. race/culture also comes into play. Asian parents try their best to ensure their kids succeed, there's at least some level of support. It's tough to succeed when you're surrounded by degenerates and low-lives.

I know some of you will say: I never had money/good parents or my friend grew up in poverty, drunk dad with mom who was a crackhead and he turned out fine etc etc.

now I'm not taking away personal accountability here, but what are the statistics of someone born in the projects becoming functional beings in society compared to them going to jail? Maybe we are spending too much money on helping these individuals, maybe this specific program isn't helping at all, but as a society, most would agree that we should at least be trying to help those not as fortunate as us.

I always find it funny that my friends who crew up in Britannia, whalley etc have the most sympathy for these people and the people who grew up driving a new $30K car with an N sticker seeming to care the least.
iEatClams is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-21-2013, 09:01 PM   #10
MG1
Fathered more RS members than anybody else. Who's your daddy?
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 18,776
Thanked 8,255 Times in 3,278 Posts
There but for the grace of God, go I.........


Take nothing for granted and thank your lucky stars.
__________________
Quote:
"there but for the grace of god go I"

substitute the word "god" with Allah, Mohammed, Buddha, Odin, your parents, whathaveyou..........
MG1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 09:03 PM   #11
Proud to be called a RS Regular!
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VAN/RMD
Posts: 105
Thanked 119 Times in 29 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by iEatClams View Post
Some of these junkies didn't grow up in proper neighbourhoods with a proper family that supported them. They were literally BORN into a life destined to fail.

Abusive parents, drunk parents, parents that were 14 years old when they had them. parents that were never around. mother was probably a prostitute. never had christmas presents. or never had a normal childhood. couldn't afford clothing, food, shelter, which lead them to hang around the wrong crowds etc. theres a whole bunch of other social issues. race/culture also comes into play. Asian parents try their best to ensure their kids succeed, there's at least some level of support. It's tough to succeed when you're surrounded by degenerates and low-lives.

I know some of you will say: I never had money/good parents or my friend grew up in poverty, drunk dad with mom who was a crackhead and he turned out fine etc etc.

now I'm not taking away personal accountability here, but what are the statistics of someone born in the projects becoming functional beings in society compared to them going to jail? Maybe we are spending too much money on helping these individuals, maybe this specific program isn't helping at all, but as a society, most would agree that we should at least be trying to help those not as fortunate as us.

I always find it funny that my friends who crew up in Britannia, whalley etc have the most sympathy for these people and the people who grew up driving a new $30K car with an N sticker seeming to care the least.
Providing too much support for these people helps to continue this cycle
Remember this video?

Her kid will probably turn out to be like her, and sooner or later being drug addicts.
If you remember going to high school, a lot of these people who turn drug addicts, chose to be drug addicts. These were most likely the people who would skip class, do drugs, steal, etc. Yes I know they didn't choose the proper family to grow up in, but as much as they didn't, they have a choice to turn their life around. Most of them clearly didn't.
You have to also understand the amount of support people in Canada get as is.
People in elementary to highschool are lucky to get "free" education, whereas if you go to another country, goodluck turning your life around when you are born to an improper family. A lot of people born in North America do not understand the true value of education and money and choosing this lifestyle is just the easy way out.

Last edited by Stiig; 09-21-2013 at 09:09 PM.
Stiig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 09:05 PM   #12
WOAH! i think Vtec just kicked in!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,687
Thanked 730 Times in 294 Posts
^ should we punish or kill her kid because her kid was lucky enough to be born into this life?
iEatClams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 09:11 PM   #13
Proud to be called a RS Regular!
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VAN/RMD
Posts: 105
Thanked 119 Times in 29 Posts
no the kid isn't born or a drug addict yet

But she probably is,
so yes we should punish her
Stiig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 09:13 PM   #14
Orgasm Donor & Alatar owned my ass twice!
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 16,353
Thanked 5,618 Times in 2,304 Posts
Quote:
In her indictment of her department’s decision, Ambrose said she plans to “ensure this does not happen again.”

Giving addicts this heroin, she argued, is “not to treat an underlying medical condition, but simply to allow them to continue to have access to heroin for their addiction even though other safe treatments for heroin addiction, such as methadone, are available.”
quickly did a check on our health minister

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/bio.asp?id=47

no real background in health care/public health...please give us more sound medical advice
__________________
My BST Feedback
twitchyzero is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-21-2013, 09:36 PM   #15
Wanna have a threesome?
 
MindBomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,886
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,656 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinosaur View Post
What will we, as Canadians, learn from this?

Will this contribute anything to medical research?
The article answers your questions.

The heroin's being provided as part of a medical study that's set to determine whether hydromorphone's an effective treatment for hardcore heroin addiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinosaur
I really don't see why HC is providing heroin. Is it that they can not afford to buy it off the street anymore?
Bring-your-own-heroin wouldn't work well in a medical study.

The scientific process mandates isolation of variables, and the concentration of street heroin varies wildly, so providing the participants a laboratory produced heroin is essential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinosaur View Post
I think many many people share these same sentiments. Let's really look at it:

-these people don't pay taxes
-these people are not contributing members to society
-these people most likely live on social assistance that our tax payments cover
-these people have a slim to nil possibility of ever changing the above
The severely mentally ill and severely addicted occupy a similar position in society, and genetic predisposition's largely the cause of both issues. The mentally ill are not so flippantly dismissed, and that's an unjust imbalance to my mind.

The real issues this, though: "these people have a slim to nil possibility of ever changing the above." That's the simple and accurate truth. Medical science is barely able to treat heroin addiction, leaving hardcore heroin addicts pathologically incapable of quitting. The study's attempting to extend medical science's ability to treat heroin addiction, and give hardcore heroin addicts hope. The optimistic endpoint is the "slim to nil possibility" turning to something seriously possible, to the very significant benefit of all society. A laudable objective.

Last edited by MindBomber; 09-21-2013 at 10:15 PM.
MindBomber is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-21-2013, 09:53 PM   #16
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: bedroom
Posts: 3,111
Thanked 3,491 Times in 1,176 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post
quickly did a check on our health minister

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/bio.asp?id=47

no real background in health care/public health...please give us more sound medical advice
Like any appointment Minister, do they ever have the right qualifications for their title? Most of these people are appointed based on how well they kiss ass...
dinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 10:41 PM   #17
Rs has made me the man i am today!
 
Traum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Paradise, BC
Posts: 3,107
Thanked 2,351 Times in 1,031 Posts
Dafuq?! Whatever happened to prescribing methadone?!
Traum is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 11:18 PM   #18
Cant Stop Modding Fat Cars w/ Cheap Pasts!
 
StylinRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CELICAland
Posts: 23,046
Thanked 9,234 Times in 3,293 Posts
if you read the reuters article i linked u'll find that methadone doesn't work for a segment of addicts (remember methadone is just weaker heroin)
StylinRed is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-22-2013, 12:29 AM   #19
Proud to be called a RS Regular!
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VAN/RMD
Posts: 105
Thanked 119 Times in 29 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
The severely mentally ill and severely addicted occupy a similar position in society, and genetic predisposition's largely the cause of both issues. The mentally ill are not so flippantly dismissed, and that's an unjust imbalance to my mind.
Please don't tell me you study genetics

Mental illness to a degree is related to a genetic predisposition. Improper fetal development is also a contributing factor. I'm sure these junkies continue to use drugs while pregnant, and these harmful drugs are able to cross the placental barrier. And what happens to these junkies brains are now contributing to their child's brain development.

Severe addiction to drugs being largely related to genetics? A lot of people choose to do drugs, even when equipped with a functioning brain. Environmental factors such as peers, media, family are probably bigger contributing factors versus genetics. It's false to assume being a drug addict is LARGELY related to genetics.

If there was a gene for being full retard, then maybe.
Stiig is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 09-22-2013, 12:39 AM   #20
boot boot car
 
PiuYi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,054
Thanked 1,284 Times in 536 Posts
fcking Conservative government ruining scientific research with good intentions... they don't even look at the facts, they just do what they think the public will want them to do
PiuYi is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-22-2013, 12:50 AM   #21
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Infiniti
Posts: 2,470
Thanked 2,121 Times in 669 Posts
thanks for supporting me with your tax dollars gais.
xilley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 12:53 AM   #22
Wanna have a threesome?
 
MindBomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,886
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,656 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiig View Post
Please don't tell me you study genetics

Mental illness to a degree is related to a genetic predisposition. Improper fetal development is also a contributing factor. I'm sure these junkies continue to use drugs while pregnant, and these harmful drugs are able to cross the placental barrier. And what happens to these junkies brains are now contributing to their child's brain development.

Severe addiction to drugs being largely related to genetics? A lot of people choose to do drugs, even when equipped with a functioning brain. Environmental factors such as peers, media, family are probably bigger contributing factors versus genetics. It's false to assume being a drug addict is LARGELY related to genetics.

If there was a gene for being full retard, then maybe.
I, at no point, suggested genetic predisposition to be the only contributing factoring to mental illness or drug addiction. I am aware improper fetal development contributes to mental illness and environmental factors contribute to addiction. I do not broad, unsupportable assumptions. A significant amount of scholarly work shows genetic predisposition among the most largely contributing of precursors to addiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traum
Dafuq?! Whatever happened to prescribing methadone?!
Like Stylin said, methadone's not entirely effective.

"But the addicts getting this heroin were by definition ones methadone wouldn’t help: They’ve already tried."
MindBomber is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 09-22-2013, 12:57 AM   #23
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: bedroom
Posts: 3,111
Thanked 3,491 Times in 1,176 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiig View Post
Please don't tell me you study genetics

Mental illness to a degree is related to a genetic predisposition. Improper fetal development is also a contributing factor. I'm sure these junkies continue to use drugs while pregnant, and these harmful drugs are able to cross the placental barrier. And what happens to these junkies brains are now contributing to their child's brain development.

Severe addiction to drugs being largely related to genetics? A lot of people choose to do drugs, even when equipped with a functioning brain. Environmental factors such as peers, media, family are probably bigger contributing factors versus genetics. It's false to assume being a drug addict is LARGELY related to genetics.

If there was a gene for being full retard, then maybe.
I think you are misunderstanding mindbomber's post.

If I am reading it correctly, he is drawing the parallel of a genetic mental illness resulting in the use of drugs to cope rather than a genetic predisposition to drug use. Thus, at the bottom of all of this, genetics DOES play a large role....larger than your examples of family, media, peers, etc.

Yes, some infants are born with drugs in their system which could lead to issues later in life, however, mental illness plays a larger role.

This is why we are rarely dealing with just drug addicts...the real issue is mental illness. Helping the mental illness will aid in a drug addict's recovery.
dinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 02:31 AM   #24
Orgasm Donor & Alatar owned my ass twice!
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 16,353
Thanked 5,618 Times in 2,304 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinosaur View Post
Like any appointment Minister, do they ever have the right qualifications for their title? Most of these people are appointed based on how well they kiss ass...
I think the past health minister did have a medical background
may be i'm confusing it with the Surgeon General in the US
__________________
My BST Feedback
twitchyzero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:43 AM   #25
Where's my RS Christmas Lobster?!
 
PeanutButter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Burnaby
Posts: 878
Thanked 1,759 Times in 282 Posts
It's not like Health Canada just decided to do give these people drugs..

It appears several MD's compiled a 1000 page report because they felt that 35 people needed this drug. And only 16 of them were approved. It's as if your oncologist submitted a report to Health Canada to cover your chemo therapy.

This isn't like the free needles program people. Take a step back and look at what's actually going on.
PeanutButter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net