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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

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Old 10-05-2013, 05:58 PM   #1
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Switzerland to vote on $2,800 monthly ‘basic income’ for adults

Yahoo News Canada - Latest News & Headlines

Switzerland to vote on $2,800 monthly ‘basic income’ for adults

By Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News | The Sideshow

More than 100,000 residents in Switzerland have signed a petition demanding that the government ensure a minimum monthly income of nearly $2,800 (2,500 Swiss francs) for all adults in the country.

The 120,000 signatures are enough to formally call a vote in the government over whether or not to approve the “CHF 2,500 monthly for everyone" (Grundeinkommen)” funding proposal.

For comparison, the average U.S. worker earned $3,769 in pre-tax, monthly salary in 2011. Food service industry workers earned $1,785 in pre-tax income during the same period.

MSN reports that in a public display of support, advocates tipped over a truck full of 8 million five-cent coins in front of the Swiss capital on Friday, one coin for each of the country’s citizens.

A formal date has yet to be set for the vote but it could come as early as this year, pending guidance from Swiss government.
Funding for the proposed measure would come out of the Swiss social insurance system, which already guarantees universal health care coverage for its citizens, along with other benefits designed to uphold the country’s social safety net.
Because of the relatively low threshold for forcing votes on referendum driven issues, Switzerland typically votes on several public measures each year.
For example, on November 24th, the country will vote on a separate measure that would limit executive pay to the same amount paid to a company’s lowest paid staff member.
The so-called 1:12 initiative has received support from the Swiss government’s Social Democrat bloc.
At least one of Switzerland’s biggest CEO’s has said if the measure passes, he would consider moving his company out of the country .
“I can’t believe that Switzerland would cause such great harm to its economy,” Glencore CEO Ivan Glasenberg told the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation. “And I say that not just as the head of a company, but as a Swiss citizen.”
Glencore said the measure could have a disastrous effect on other Swiss companies, including Nestlé, Novartis and Roche.
Of course, not all of the country’s referendums are meant to promote a socialist state. For example, a majority of Swiss voters have voiced support for a referendum that would maintain the country’s conscription policy , which requires all men in the country aged 18-34 to complete a period of public service.


Swiss "basic income" supporters drop coins outside the capital (Reuters)
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:42 PM   #2
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Think i recall this being discussed in a first year philosophy class, where different methods of welfare were discussed one of them being everyone gets a minimum amount and the idea is that those that wouldn't need the money in the first place would just put that money back into the economy and also since everyone gets the same amount there wouldn't be a need for so much bureaucracy/investigators/distribution offices etc so that the govt. wouldn't be losing money

its been ages anyway so i can't remember the argument exactly
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:10 PM   #3
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How expensive is it to live in Switzerland that each adult needs $2800/month for "basic living" ?
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:12 PM   #4
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How expensive is it to live in Switzerland that each adult needs $2800/month for "basic living" ?
Cost of Living in Switzerland. Prices in Switzerland.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials...l?cid=29178118

http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index


expensive
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:12 PM   #5
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yup $2800 swiss francs is about $3200 Canadian.
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #6
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quick glance at their taxation and it looks comparable to US/Canada?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Switzerland
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:41 PM   #7
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you need to pay to play
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:16 PM   #8
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Those taxation charts aren't always a great, "all in" indicator.

You take our federal and average out our provincial taxes and add them together and you get our tax rate.

There is municipal, prop tax, gas tax, MSP and so on that may not get counted as it isn't a rate that can be easily measured.

They may be well able to afford it.

But when they can't, you have a population that is hooked on entitlements and when the tap gets turned off, you get Greece.
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:37 PM   #9
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Those taxation charts aren't always a great, "all in" indicator.

You take our federal and average out our provincial taxes and add them together and you get our tax rate.

There is municipal, prop tax, gas tax, MSP and so on that may not get counted as it isn't a rate that can be easily measured.

They may be well able to afford it.

But when they can't, you have a population that is hooked on entitlements and when the tap gets turned off, you get Greece.
Well, greece has a problem with not paying taxes as well. So it was a combination of too much entitlements + little to no tax collection.

greece and italy have the highest rates of tax evasions among western countries. for example. almost $300 billion euros of taxes that were suppose to be collected but werent in Italy last year but wasnt. These countries dont even have a proper system for even collecting taxes. And greeks actually worked more than most of their peers in the EU in terms of annual hours.

Personally, I dislike people that try to evade taxes. ie. not claiming rental income, paying people under the table, "cash only" businesses. These guys imo are not paying their fair share and in the end cost us honest guys.

On the other hand, if you are avoiding taxes legally by taking advantage of the income tax act because you have a good accountant that's another thing.
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Old 10-06-2013, 01:19 PM   #10
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^ the best way to avoid your income tax is probably to move your business' headquater to tax haven.

Btw..
Tax Haven = Countries where no income tax exist

all your profit will go to tax haven, thus no tax for you.

Tackle Tax Havens Canada | Bring Our Tax Dollars Home! | tackletaxhavens.ca
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Old 10-06-2013, 01:38 PM   #11
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THANKS TIMPO. Lol, this guy...
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Old 10-06-2013, 02:25 PM   #12
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Damn... and to think that I barely make that after tax...

RS Group move?
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:05 AM   #13
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I'd be very interested to see what kind social impact it would have on the country if passed.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:25 PM   #14
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I always feel that min wage sometimes isn't the best solution. You raise min wage and then everything else raise with it (Rent, food, uilities, goods, income tax well you pay more income tax coz your wage went up). So in the end those making min wage will be in the same boat or worse off than before.......
If I am a store owner and I have to pay more to my workers I am goign to incrase price so in the end my profit is the same yet customers have to pay more now.
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Old 10-07-2013, 02:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timpo View Post
^ the best way to avoid your income tax is probably to move your business' headquater to tax haven.

Btw..
Tax Haven = Countries where no income tax exist

all your profit will go to tax haven, thus no tax for you.

Tackle Tax Havens Canada | Bring Our Tax Dollars Home! | tackletaxhavens.ca
The Top Tax Havens - Business Review Canada
That list of tax havens is incredibly short. No mention of Luxembourg, Cook Island, Cyprus, Barbados, Ireland, Bermuda, etc.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:06 PM   #16
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I always feel that min wage sometimes isn't the best solution. You raise min wage and then everything else raise with it (Rent, food, uilities, goods, income tax well you pay more income tax coz your wage went up). So in the end those making min wage will be in the same boat or worse off than before.......
If I am a store owner and I have to pay more to my workers I am goign to incrase price so in the end my profit is the same yet customers have to pay more now.
well that's how our economy get stronger.
do you still wanna be stuck with $1/hr? you won't be able to afford import cars...or any import goods for that matter.

oh shit, what if we raise min wage to $100/hr? sure, food prices will go up and everything but does that mean we can all afford Lambo and Ferrari or what
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:13 PM   #17
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whats the tax rate in swiss?

I guess they can float the cash with all the offshore accounts they have at Swiss Banks.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:02 PM   #18
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If you get caught for tax evasion in Canada you're in serious trouble.

The CRA will investigate if you have a tax haven, which is considered as tax evasion here. As far as I know, from what I've looked into.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:45 PM   #19
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speaking of which Belize has been advertising on Canadian television that it's a tax haven
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:32 PM   #20
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If you get caught for tax evasion in Canada you're in serious trouble.

The CRA will investigate if you have a tax haven, which is considered as tax evasion here. As far as I know, from what I've looked into.
Having a structure involving a tax haven location does not constitute tax evasion.

I have countless clients with such a structure and CRA never come up anything. Most of them got audited by CRA a few times. After a few years, CRA no longer bother them as they always come up empty handed.

Immoral? perhaps, illegal? far from it.
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:42 PM   #21
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^ So they report all of their income earned in Canada under a company in a tax haven?

Or is that tax haven company paid for work done in Canada.

I'm interested in how they do it.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:27 PM   #22
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I am not an accountant, so don't hold me responsible on this, but I will show you how one of the cases I have seen:

The client is an engineering firm. They have their design team registered in a tax haven. The design of an engineering project is of course always among one of the most expensive expenses there is.

Thus, when the Canadian parent company wants to bid on an engineering project, it licenses engineering design from its tax haven subsidiary at fair market value (everyone charges a premium) and the tax portion of the design is minimized. Then through a careful calculation of dividend type and rate, the money flows back to the Canadian parent at a much lower rate than if the company reported the design portion as revenue.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:45 PM   #23
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I think I see. So the work is still done in the tax haven. But the parent company gets money back for referring the bid so to speak. Yeah, that's not out right tax evasion, in my opinion, since the money is not paid to the parent company. Not the entire amount anyways.
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Old 10-08-2013, 07:23 PM   #24
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I think I see. So the work is still done in the tax haven. But the parent company gets money back for referring the bid so to speak. Yeah, that's not out right tax evasion, in my opinion, since the money is not paid to the parent company. Not the entire amount anyways.
The subsidiary basically creates expense for its parent company. And as the expense is significant in the business they are in, it makes a perfect sense to use it as a way to minimize taxes.

The way I see it is that any mean used for tax minimization (whether morally right or wrong), as long as it's legal, it's ok. But to use tax haven or corporate layering for tax evasion (less tax than you are legally obligated to pay), then that's wrong.

The sad part is that tax strategies like these are not available to the general public. Hence creates the moral problem that people who work the hardest have the highest tax burden (proportionally speaking).

My parents use a complex structure for their portfolio... and they pay a fraction of their income in taxes while my paycheck gets a 3x% cut every month.
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