B.C. real estate firm looks for luxury buyers in China

[tool001]

China has been crackingdown on wealthy people..party officials..etc. getting $ out of china must have accelerated since new leader took office

[J____]

Originally Posted by SlySi

Yep. You dont own in Asia.
You own here.

Also, the mentality of the rich Chinese culture.
Save the money, not only for your kids, or grand kids. But for your grand kids grand kids.
Creating the successful path throughout the family generation.

Different than other cultures. Kick your kids out of the house at 19. Spend all your money before you move on in life.

But lets not kid ourselves. The same saving asians are also balling.

technically you only "own" property here if you pay your property tax. If you don't pay, your property eventually gets foreclosed and auctioned off.

In China the property tax is so low it's literally non existent. When you buy property it's a 70 year lease. No one knows what happens after 70 years yet.

So in reality, you don't really OWN your property in north america.

[4444]

Originally Posted by J____

technically you only "own" property here if you pay your property tax. If you don't pay, your property eventually gets foreclosed and auctioned off.

In China the property tax is so low it's literally non existent. When you buy property it's a 70 year lease. No one knows what happens after 70 years yet.

So in reality, you don't really OWN your property in north america.

You think having to pay property tax means u don't own something? What are you smoking?

[Carl Johnson]

Canadian loonie hit new low against Chinese RMB. Almost 20% devaluation againest RMB since the beginning of 2011. But keep buying the mega-mansions in Vancouver please.

[$_$]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

Canadian loonie hit new low against Chinese RMB. Almost 20% devaluation againest RMB since the beginning of 2011. But keep buying the mega-mansions in Vancouver please.

You obviously don't understand that money ain't a thing to these people.

[Carl Johnson]

Losing 20% is not insignificant even to the riches. In terms of money, Chinese is up there with the jews.

[jackmeister]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

Losing 20% is not insignificant even to the riches. In terms of money, Chinese is up there with the jews.

losing 20% on 10mil on canadian house/property but gaining 20% on 200+mil RMB in cash

thats the type of filth that's going on, mainland chinese just laughing now

[$_$]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

Losing 20% is not insignificant even to the riches. In terms of money, Chinese is up there with the jews.

Again, I think you are missing the point of the difference of having your money there and having your money here.

You can take your Canadian money and move to a third world country and increase your standards of living by a huge margin - bigger house, more food and disposable income. Why don't most people do it?

The same psychology happens in reverse here. Theres a reason why rich chinese people flock by the tens of thousands out of China. Instead of trying to find reasons why they shouldn't, why don't you try to take a second and think about why they do?

These people are shitting money out of their asses right now. I don't see anybody losing any money investing in Vancouver real estate for the past little while, do you?

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by $_$

Again, I think you are missing the point of the difference of having your money there and having your money here.

You can take your Canadian money and move to a third world country and increase your standards of living by a huge margin - bigger house, more food and disposable income. Why don't most people do it?

The same psychology happens in reverse here. Theres a reason why rich chinese people flock by the tens of thousands out of China. Instead of trying to find reasons why they shouldn't, why don't you try to take a second and think about why they do?

These people are shitting money out of their asses right now. I don't see anybody losing any money investing in Vancouver real estate for the past little while, do you?

When it comes to investing I dont look in the rear-view mirror. And honestly I have zero home bias when it comes to investing as well. Why should i accept another bullshit story that is probably sponsored by RE firm to pump up Vancouver real estate.

I merely point out the things Rich Chinese should be aware of like the currency risk, taxation, and the risks of putting money in a dead BC economy that is losing tons of full-time jobs to Alberta.

[$_$]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

When it comes to investing I dont look in the rear-view mirror. And honestly I have zero home bias when it comes to investing as well. Why should i accept another bullshit story that is probably sponsored by RE firm to pump up Vancouver real estate.

I merely point out the things Rich Chinese should be aware of like the currency risk, taxation, and the risks of putting money in a dead BC economy that is losing tons of full-time jobs to Alberta.

None of the Chinese come here with the explicit intention to make money. They can get better returns doing other shit in other places, at way lower costs. Making money in Canada is more like a bonus. They come to here to retire and grow the next generation of children in a better enviroment. They invest in the local economy because that's what you do when you move somewhere, yes maybe per dollar your investment yields lesser returns but there are other factors at play. You say you don't look in the rear view mirror but you're not the one developing new apartments and having them sell out before it's even built. It's like if your enviromental investment yields 5% and your BP investment yields 20%, maybe you won't but others might. Like I said, when you get to a certain level of wealth, the next dollar isn't all that matters.

[achiam]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

Frankly, I just don't buy this illegal money argument unless you have some data to back up this claim. Not everyone is an angel in Canada just so you know. I am saying I just don't see a whole lot of reasons for well-off Chinese to come to Vancouver either to live or just to invest. Of course this runs contrary all the self-serving real estate agents, insurance brokers, and wealth management bankers would want you to think.

RE: Illegal China Money

I feel a lot of people here do not understand how China works, and why Vancouver is seeing what it is seeing.
As a China national, you are limited to moving the equivalent of $50,000 Canadian out of the country annually. The easy way around this, is many of them are business owners and do work-around (e.g. I own a factory in China, and I'm selling you, a customer in Germany, a product -- I charge $10, but if you send me $8, and put the other $2 in a a Swiss or Grand Cayman/BVI account, we'll settle on a lower price).
There are a lot of big company owners that fall into this somewhat legit group.

Then you have the other crazies -- people who were government authorities. You have filthy rich factories in China who pollute. You are a pollution inspector. They pay you crazy cash to shut up and approve the inspection. Etc Etc.
This latter group is probably the majority of what you see here. Given that the latest China PM has cracked down on corruption, loads of said authorities are off-loading ill-gotten properties in China, and shipping the capital out -- even if they buy the crazy cars in Vancouver and the value drops, it still retains some value. Another way is to purchase properties and soon after offload -- eventually the cash is untraceable.

How much cash is flying outta China?
China's Epic Offshore Wealth Revealed: How Chinese Oligarchs Quietly Parked Up To $4 Trillion In The Caribbean | Zero Hedge

China luxury spending collapsing because their rich have already left China altogether:
China's Luxury Spending Falls Again as More Millionaires Look to Emigrate

Net worth of extended family of the "Immortals" (the men who built the Communist party) -- estimated at $1.6 trillion USD (1 trillion = 1,000 billion)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...r-of-golf.html

They are here in Vancouver, Australia, and the UK simply because it is insanely hard to get into the USA.

Ref: I have plenty of ex-Vancouver friends who run their parent's factories in China. They tell me stories daily. I also have plenty of Chartered Accountant friends sent to audit multi-national company factories in China, and know full well that whores and cash are what really keeps the officials happy. I'm sure others here can continue.

[jackmeister]

^further to that, as a Chinese National IIRC you're allowed to wire out 50K USD per year, per identification card, legitimately. Most filthy money isn't in a bank account so someone can see, track, and freeze. Instead, it goes through underground money transfer agents so it ends up outside of China. Everyone's happy.

I'm pretty sure the wealthy Chinese folks don't give a shit about jobs in BC or the economy going to shit, they're here knowing they can:
1) attain citizenship in a few years
2) evade chinese persecution for making or taking bribes (death penalty)
3) breath clean air
4) enjoy a decent standard of living regardless of income level
5) live under a somewhat more transparent set of laws.

They wouldn't be caring about taxes when the alternative could be getting all your assets taken away without trial

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by $_$

None of the Chinese come here with the explicit intention to make money. They can get better returns doing other shit in other places, at way lower costs. Making money in Canada is more like a bonus. They come to here to retire and grow the next generation of children in a better enviroment. They invest in the local economy because that's what you do when you move somewhere, yes maybe per dollar your investment yields lesser returns but there are other factors at play. You say you don't look in the rear view mirror but you're not the one developing new apartments and having them sell out before it's even built. It's like if your enviromental investment yields 5% and your BP investment yields 20%, maybe you won't but others might. Like I said, when you get to a certain level of wealth, the next dollar isn't all that matters.

I very much doubt the Chinese are simply here to live and retire like the way you put it. The Chinese have been conditioned to invest in property because that's how a lot of them got rich in China. So by simply saying making money on Vancouver real estate is just a "bonus" and not really a priority to them is a bit of stretch in my opinion. Some of them might be retiring here but most of them wants to make money in the property. So even if Vancouver RE move sideways that will hurt them because of property tax, maintenance, and the declining Canadian dollar.

With regards to better living standards here, yes I do agree it is better here right now. But when you buy a house here to live you should think 10-20 years ahead. The fact China has shit environment today is because all the manufacturing they are doing by producing low-value added goods. But that is definitely changing as China is moving away from the capital intensive manufacturing and wants to move up the food chain to get into high tech areas, so the pollution should be less and less in the future.

[xpl0sive]

^ you're still missing the point. RE is still considered a "safe" investment. The main thing they are concerned about is holding on to their "hard" earned stolen or "illegal" money. They would much rather spend $10mil here on a few properties and pay property taxes, maintenance costs, etc. than have 20% more RMB in China and risk having the Government come after them.

Maybe you just don't get the point of people being scared of their Government. Imagine that the politicians in Canada were not accountable to anyone. One day they decide that everyone who's net worth is over $10mil should be paying 50% tax to the Government or they go to jail for the rest of their life. What would you do if your net worth was over $10mil? Pay tax/go to jail? OR try get your money out ASAP?

I'm not from China, I'm from Russia, but the bottom line remains the same. Corrupt governments promote corruption on all levels. Russians have been doing the same shit as the Chinese for years, they just invest in Europe and USA.

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

^ you're still missing the point. RE is still considered a "safe" investment. The main thing they are concerned about is holding on to their "hard" earned stolen or "illegal" money. They would much rather spend $10mil here on a few properties and pay property taxes, maintenance costs, etc. than have 20% more RMB in China and risk having the Government come after them.

Maybe you just don't get the point of people being scared of their Government. Imagine that the politicians in Canada were not accountable to anyone. One day they decide that everyone who's net worth is over $10mil should be paying 50% tax to the Government or they go to jail for the rest of their life. What would you do if your net worth was over $10mil? Pay tax/go to jail? OR try get your money out ASAP?

I'm not from China, I'm from Russia, but the bottom line remains the same. Corrupt governments promote corruption on all levels. Russians have been doing the same shit as the Chinese for years, they just invest in Europe and USA.

First of all, RE is not a safe investment because it is just another financial asset that will move with respect to interest rate and general trends of a country's economy. Secondly, you just don't get the effect of compounding do you? China has been growing double digits for the last 20 years. That means people's living standards is doubling every 5-7 years. There were almost no Chinese billionaire just 10 years ago, now they are buying up assets all over the world. I know it is difficult for a lot of people in the west to accept the fact that China has emerged as a super power because it changes to power balance. But don't resort to silly argument like that most wealth accumulated by wealthy Chinese is "illegal money" when you really have no idea what is actually happening on the ground.

[xpl0sive]

The people who are getting money OUT of China are not concerned about growth. They've already made their millions, legally or illegally. Now they want to get it OUT of China. It doesn't matter if Chinese economy is growing "double digits" and the Canadian economy remaining flat. They don't care if they make money from their investment. They care about keeping the money they already have. And in Canada that's a lot easier than in China

[minoru_tanaka]

Originally Posted by 4444

You think having to pay property tax means u don't own something? What are you smoking?

Makes you think though, here we have eminent domain where the govt can just take your land if they see fit.

Meanwhile in communist China an old man says I'm not leaving so this happen

[RFlush]

Rich Chinese continue to flee China

Rich chinese leaving China

[4444]

Originally Posted by minoru_tanaka

Makes you think though, here we have eminent domain where the govt can just take your land if they see fit.

Meanwhile in communist China an old man says I'm not leaving so this happen

I'm actually shocked this happened, and the government didn't just 'remove' him. Canada has some of the best protections for citizen's rights re: protection of assets. Thankfully we have a 'fair' legal system where we should get fair market value plus a small inconvenience premium (built into the fmv via the forced sale) if forced to move.

I'd never buy real estate in a country where I think I don't have full rights to value (though I don't own in Canada, due to my belief our valuations are nuts and will revert)

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by minoru_tanaka

Makes you think though, here we have eminent domain where the govt can just take your land if they see fit.

Meanwhile in communist China an old man says I'm not leaving so this happen

its a toss up though you may get a local govt. that decides its a good idea to let you keep your place but make it inhospitable as possible or that same local govt. will decide to send in a gang to beat everyone out of the area and those who don't leave will die when the bulldozers come through next
so that's not exactly a great example

[willystyle]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

But don't resort to silly argument like that most wealth accumulated by wealthy Chinese is "illegal money" when you really have no idea what is actually happening on the ground.

The Chinese Central Government is cracking down on bribery (illegal business dealings). Those who have a basic understanding of Chinese business relationships and practices would know that in order to be financially successful, you need to bribe, and that happens on all levels of exchanges. The Chinese call it "Guanxi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi), without this basic concept, you will not succeed in China. If you were the Central government, you would obviously work your way from the top to bottom, hence why the super wealthy Chinese are leaving for overseas, re-distributing their wealth, regardless of whether they make a ROI (Return-on-investment) or not.

[bing]

It's Asia, you need connections to get things done. Imagine engaging in commercial activity in a country where they can shut your operations down for no real reason (i.e. they can just make shit up) unless you are a joint venture or something. In many cases you need to bribe. For example, even when you use middlemen to secure a contract, they may later come to you and say you won but only because they agreed to pay in essence a bribe (my brother worked at a prestigious architecture firm based in NY but had an office in China that designed huge projects like hospitals and hotels and this is what he told me). That is just how it is. Connections and "gifting" is an accepted part of the current business environment unless you have a relative who is at least a mid-tier government official who can approve your projects / keep things running smooth.

[Mr.C]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

First of all, RE is not a safe investment because it is just another financial asset that will move with respect to interest rate and general trends of a country's economy. Secondly, you just don't get the effect of compounding do you? China has been growing double digits for the last 20 years. That means people's living standards is doubling every 5-7 years. There were almost no Chinese billionaire just 10 years ago, now they are buying up assets all over the world. I know it is difficult for a lot of people in the west to accept the fact that China has emerged as a super power because it changes to power balance. But don't resort to silly argument like that most wealth accumulated by wealthy Chinese is "illegal money" when you really have no idea what is actually happening on the ground.

You don't get it, do you?

The point isn't to 'invest'. The point is to park your money in a place where the government is somewhat stable and won't seize all your assets. Rich Brazilians do that in the US and Europe, like the Russians. While our government isn't like China, they've been known to do fucked up things, like when a President seized all savings accounts over X amount. he was impeached, but is now a senator. The BRIC is all fucked up, and the wealthy are moving their money out.

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

You don't get it, do you?

The point isn't to 'invest'. The point is to park your money in a place where the government is somewhat stable and won't seize all your assets. Rich Brazilians do that in the US and Europe, like the Russians. While our government isn't like China, they've been known to do fucked up things, like when a President seized all savings accounts over X amount. he was impeached, but is now a senator. The BRIC is all fucked up, and the wealthy are moving their money out.

When was the last time communist party of china confiscated people's money when the money was legit? I think you are brainwashed like the typical westerner that think all wealthy people in China got their money illegally really your motive just trying to marginalize their success. Oh sure you need connections to do business in China, but is that just isolated in China and not other countries? Hell no. The BRI might be fucked but the C - China - is in a league of its own.

[Mr.C]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

When was the last time communist party of china confiscated people's money when the money was legit? I think you are brainwashed like the typical westerner that think all wealthy people in China got their money illegally really your motive just trying to marginalize their success. Oh sure you need connections to do business in China, but is that just isolated in China and not other countries? Hell no. The BRI might be fucked but the C - China - is in a league of its own.

Please show me where I said 'all'. I'll wait.

I grew up in a country that operates *exactly* how China is described, with the exception that in the last fifty years, it was governed by a military junta for twenty years and really corrupt democratic presidents for the following thirty.

You look like you ignored what I wrote; I said that in third world countries, you cannot be wealthy and squeaky clean. It does not happen. Some of your money will be dirty.

But that's not the point. The point is that even if the money is legit, you don't trust your government, and especially not the CCC, which has a history of executing people who fall out of favour. You park your money in a stable North American or European country, so you have a place to go to if shit goes south.