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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 04-11-2014, 09:32 AM   #26
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I understand the part that RCMP cant validate if the china DL is real or fake, but at the same time how can the DL holder prove it if it is real?
If you hold the international DL, that alone is prove that your original countries ID is real.
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:44 AM   #27
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RCMP/vpd/police in general should supersede icbc.

If someone gets in an accident due to someone with a license that can't be verified if it's real or not should be forced to pay all damages and injuries out of their own pocket...then have the victim sue icbc for allowing someone with a fake ID to drive without doing their due diligence.(if it is fake)


I bet you could probably get a Chinese DL template online, add your photo in it, print it on photo paper and laminate it, walk into icbc and they'd believe you.
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:51 AM   #28
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If you hold the international DL, that alone is prove that your original countries ID is real.
Right away, first thing that pops into my mind is the Big Bang theory...

FBI agent asks Sheldon if she can ask him some questions and flashes her FBI badge only for him to reply "here is my Justice League membership card, but that doesn't prove I know Batman."
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:20 PM   #29
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If you hold the international DL, that alone is prove that your original countries ID is real.

No, it does not. The IDL is a translation of what appears on your "real" DL and it is NOT a driver's license. IDLs are not always issued by the Govt. For instance, in Germany and Austria and New Zealand they are issued by the local version of BCAA. I obtained one while on holiday in Germany a few years back. The local automobile assn. gave me one for money at their Munich office. The rental car company would not rent to me without one.
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:21 PM   #30
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Right away, first thing that pops into my mind is the Big Bang theory...

FBI agent asks Sheldon if she can ask him some questions and flashes her FBI badge only for him to reply "here is my Justice League membership card, but that doesn't prove I know Batman."
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Then I guess my Flash Gordon decoder ring is not real either?
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:46 PM   #31
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There have been some pretty good counterfeit bills in circulation over the years. Even the banks have been known to make a mistake with them.

I guess anyone caught with paper money should have it seized in the off chance it could be fake.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:07 PM   #32
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No, it does not. The IDL is a translation of what appears on your "real" DL and it is NOT a driver's license. IDLs are not always issued by the Govt. For instance, in Germany and Austria and New Zealand they are issued by the local version of BCAA. I obtained one while on holiday in Germany a few years back. The local automobile assn. gave me one for money at their Munich office. The rental car company would not rent to me without one.
Yes that's correct, what i meant was...by having a IDL, it implies you hold a legit driver's license somewhere. You are not allowed to operate a vehicle without both the IDL and your country's DL.

see..that's where ICBC is wrong. China is not in agreement with the IDL thing, so there's no reason why we should allow them to drive here.
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:14 PM   #33
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Yes that's correct, what i meant was...by having a IDL, it implies you hold a legit driver's license somewhere. You are not allowed to operate a vehicle without both the IDL and your country's DL.

see..that's where ICBC is wrong. China is not in agreement with the IDL thing, so there's no reason why we should allow them to drive here.
I agree 100% with you but ICBC has a legal valid point with the MVA. Now as long as its like that ICBC will fight this because they are making way too much money off this. If they pass a new law, guarantee they executives will not have a nice Christmas bonus until they find another way to screw us!
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:32 PM   #34
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I agree 100% with you but ICBC has a legal valid point with the MVA. Now as long as its like that ICBC will fight this because they are making way too much money off this. If they pass a new law, guarantee they executives will not have a nice Christmas bonus until they find another way to screw us!
ICBC's argument isn't valid. The issue isn't what allows an international driver to drive in BC. The issue is whether the document(s) the driver has is authentic. If ICBC wants to be liable and say the licence is "authentic", fine. Right now, the Police are the ones in a predicament where they see a foreign licence, and can't assume it is real. If it isn't and the driver goes on to kill someone in a collision, the Police will probably face some legal issues.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:37 PM   #35
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What the BC MVA says about having a DL is that you must have a BC DL....unless you have a valid OOP DL (out of province) & produce it roadside. The translation (IDL) is NOT a requirement, but it is a way to show that your foreign DL is appropriate for the class of vehicle you are driving. If your home DL is fake then the IDL still is worthless...and a valid IDL does not make a fake DL a valid one. If you are from Kuwait you could probably produce a bank of Kuwait bank card and an IDL that says the bank card is a valid DL. I would doubt the average Copper who stops you would be able to decide what was legit unless you came from there & were familiar with the local DL requirements, specially if it is in a foreign language. I speak French, German and Maori and would have a better than average shot at telling if your French, German or NZ DL was valid. Show me one in Mongolian and it could be a Monty Python fish license for all I know.

What Spidey is saying is true...when it hits the fan later on the Cops get left holding the bag....like in pursuits..they continue & the bad guy crashes, they get blamed. They stop and the bad guy crashes & injures someone else & they get blamed for not continuing & warning the public. True...both court liability cases here in BC.
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:52 PM   #36
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ICBC | International driving permits

even ICBC says having an IDP may not be valid in all countries. So why is ICBC accepting licences from China, which is NOT part of the IDP program? They will probably defer their responsibility by stating the MVA.......
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:29 PM   #37
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Spoiler!



I probably should have worded better what I meant, not necessarily proving its the law, but bending it to make it seem.

As for shit hitting the fan yes. If they (or any international) has a big and bad crash all they gotta do is pack up and fly out, and we cant do anything about it.
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:03 PM   #38
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ICBC | International driving permits

even ICBC says having an IDP may not be valid in all countries. So why is ICBC accepting licences from China, which is NOT part of the IDP program? They will probably defer their responsibility by stating the MVA.......
IDP and ICBC have nothing to do with each other. The IDP is a document which is produced by an NGO, and while it holds sway with police officers there is nothing 'legal' about it.

Here's the implications as I understand it:

ICBC accepts driver's licenses from the People's Republic of China; I presume this is because they have access to the a database of valid Chinese licenses and can verify that these licenses are legitimate.

The RCMP does not accept licenses from the People's Republic of China because they do not have access to the database that ICBC presumably does, and as a result they cannot trust the validity of the licenses. Also, while some people holding PRC licenses also have International Driver's Permits (Which are just original-license translations), the PRC is not part of the multinational group that is actually signed on to issue and recognize IDPs.

If I were a police officer, and were handed a document which I knew to be fraudulent because it does not exist in the country of origin, then I would instantly be suspicious of any other documents presented to me.

Primary documents of unknown legitimacy + Fraudulent supplemental documents = Understandable excess of caution.
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:23 PM   #39
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IDP and ICBC have nothing to do with each other. The IDP is a document which is produced by an NGO, and while it holds sway with police officers there is nothing 'legal' about it.
My point wasn't that ICBC and the IDP are associated. I realize that as it clearly states that on the link I posted. I was pointing out that ICBC even warns Canadians who are applying for an IDP that it may not be recognized in all countries. So if they realize this issue, why would they even accept a China DL, which isn't even part of the IDP program (which Canada is a part of). $$$$$$$$$, that's why.

Whether ICBC has databases or the technology to verify international DLs, then they should be the one owning up and providing the international drivers a certificate which says their licence IS VALID or at least entering the driver's info on their system so it can be tracked. But wait.. that would mean ICBC would have to SPEND more money... and decrease bonuses to their head honchos.
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Old 04-13-2014, 04:55 PM   #40
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I'm fairly certain it's not just a question of 'reducing the bonuses to the head honchos'. What you're suggesting is that there be a new type of ICBC-certified license; a sort of...driver's license-license.

As I'm sure you're aware, not too long ago we had to redesign our driver's licenses in order to conform to the new North American standard. This took no small amount of money, and people are STILL bitching about it now. Let's think about how much money and paperwork and TIME it would take to create a certified license-license. Remember that ICBC is a government entity, and that it would have to look into existing regulations in other regions which would have similar regimes, and if none do then they would have to create a new framework from scratch, as well as identify the nations which aren't part of the IDP and would then have to be included, and then whether or not this would be considered discriminatory and whether or not additional testing would be needed...


Really, nothing even remotely related to Government is simple or logical. Besides, ICBC doesn't really reap any benefits from fining foreign drivers; I'm fairly certain all that money gets put back into general revenue so as not to encourage 'fine trawling'.
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Old 04-14-2014, 12:03 PM   #41
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Sooo, anyone have a 14/15 year old sibling/cousin? Let's print him/her a fake IDL and see if icbc gives him the "go ahead" to drive...report it to a paper to show just how flawed and fucked up their system really is. Cause what's it going to take to make a change? Have someone high up in icbc have a family member die in a crash due to an IDL that they can't verify yet let them drive?
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Old 04-14-2014, 02:38 PM   #42
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Here's the implications as I understand it:

ICBC accepts driver's licenses from the People's Republic of China; I presume this is because they have access to the a database of valid Chinese licenses and can verify that these licenses are legitimate.
SO why can't ICBC issue a document or license that basically states that they have verified the person has a legitimate foreign license?
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:09 PM   #43
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SO why can't ICBC issue a document or license that basically states that they have verified the person has a legitimate foreign license?
$$$$$$ million dollar question....
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:31 PM   #44
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SO why can't ICBC issue a document or license that basically states that they have verified the person has a legitimate foreign license?
As Spidey said...because China is NOT part of the IDP programme. Unless their Govt enters the programme & shares legit DL info, how can ICBC verify anything?
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Old 04-14-2014, 10:14 PM   #45
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As Spidey said...because China is NOT part of the IDP programme. Unless their Govt enters the programme & shares legit DL info, how can ICBC verify anything?
I'm not sure, but they have been quoted as saying that they can. If they can do it, then they should issue a document or license that is required to be used here. If they can;t, then they should piss off and stop meddling.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:24 AM   #46
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I'm not sure, but they have been quoted as saying that they can. If they can do it, then they should issue a document or license that is required to be used here. If they can;t, then they should piss off and stop meddling.
I wouldn't be surprised if the people who can "authenticate" the DL are those who have knowledge and/or are from China... Not so much ICBC having machines or access to DB to verify lol.
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Old 04-24-2014, 07:06 PM   #47
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RCMP to stop issuing tickets for Chinese-issued driving licences

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METRO VANCOUVER -- The RCMP has reached an agreement with ICBC to stop ticketing, visitors, students or new residents found using Chinese-issued driving licences.

“The RCMP has advised they will not ticket drivers that have a validly issued driver’s licence from a jurisdiction outside of B.C. as long as the driver meets the requirements of the Motor Vehicle Act,” said ICBC spokesman Adam Grossman.

[...]
RCMP to stop issuing tickets for Chinese-issued driving licences
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:35 PM   #48
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So now the RCMP have to check how long they've been in the country for?
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:56 PM   #49
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If you're here on an AB licence, they'd have to check to see how long you've been in BC.... I'd hate to see them burdened with a roadside investigation.
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Old 04-24-2014, 11:25 PM   #50
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Sebberry, when you read the latest article, did you see any real difference? I didn't. Because of this, “The RCMP has advised they will not ticket drivers that have a validly issued driver’s licence from a jurisdiction outside of B.C. as long as the driver meets the requirements of the Motor Vehicle Act,” said ICBC spokesman Adam Grossman.

Guess what. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. The RCMP still cannot verify whether the DL was "validly issued". Thank you. Come again. This situation is far from being over. From what I can see, the Police can still issue tickets and tows if they really wanted to. And will still keep winning in court because the onus is on the driver to prove their licence is valid. If they can, then I am sure the Police issuing the ticket will be more than happy to drop the Charge. You seem to forget that removing driver's who cannot prove their DL being valid from the road, is for the safety of the public, not because we want to pick on Chinese DL holders.

This won't be over unless ICBC straight up takes responsibility for backing up the Chinese DL holders are being "valid". And any civil action would be directly against ICBC in the case of injuries, property damage, and death, caused by an unlicenced foreign driver.

Also, from what I have encountered, nearly all drivers who have translation papers don't have it properly completed, nor do the students have in their possession, their student card.... which makes it easy for us to issue the VT and Tow

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