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-   -   Palestine & Israel (https://www.revscene.net/forums/696945-palestine-israel.html)

m!chael 07-24-2014 10:09 AM
I think it's easy to get caught up in the mayhem and pick sides, but that does nothing but trivialize the hardships that both sides experience. Instead of becoming human rights experts only when lives are lost, people should be active in encouraging peace and social progress. I know that there is a strong center-left movement in Israel that has been making grounds in the last couple of years. Politicians that flat out said that the two-state solution is the only way Israel can survive into the future. People need to support these movements and politicians, and encourage the same on the Palestinian side. Palestinians need to demand more from their politicians and representatives. Hamas spends tens if not hundreds of millions building tunnels underground into Israel while complaining that they don’t have enough money to pay their civil servants.

It's easy to watch a few youtube videos and become a middle-east conflict expert, but there are real people in these conflicts. They deserve better than generalizations and catchy slogans.

Lomac 07-24-2014 10:30 AM
Make Jerusalem and Bethlehem no-state cities, perhaps run by the UN and patrolled by peacekeepers. Revert the Palestine/Israel border to what it was like back in '47 and make sure all countries sign an agreement that places severe sanctions on either country that attempts to invade the other.

Boom.

:p

falcon 07-24-2014 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld (Post 8507024)
this may sound stupid and noob but why can't there be two states (Gaza + west bank) + Israel?
I understand both places want Jerusalem as the capital so why can't they have a east/west.

Do educate my noobness. I'm ears.
The only reason, Hamas wants Israel gone and dead. They will never agree to a two state solution. Look up the Khartoum Resolution, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution.

The Arabic countries, mostly Gaza but others have shown support of this "Resoltion" which basically says; no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.

The three "no's"

Also, Hamas's charter is quite disturbing, read it if you have time.

StylinRed 07-24-2014 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4444 (Post 8507197)
not to want to start an argument, but it's better than just flattening it.

i assume they target locations for the purpose of disabling the terrorists, who use residential locations to store weapons.

I'd rather have a warning, as a civilian, that my place is going to get flattened, than just getting killed. I may have nothing, but at least i'd be alive.
as mentioned these warnings are bs there's about 1 minutes time from the warning to the bombs landing, you've said you watch the bbc daily surely you've seen them mention this on the news?

you have to remember these are apartment buildings with large families in them how in the hell are they expected to get out and away from the blast zone in time?

Quote:
these innocent people have nothing anyway, Hamas has made sure of that by not relinquishing power (i say this from the perspective that if Hamas truly cared about it's country and people, it'd do what's best for them in the here and now - there will never be true freedom for the Palestinian people)
Hamas was democratically elected...and from that moment they were ostracized by the international community (fine) but so were the Gazans
This is just like the IRA split where a faction decided to continue being warring militants while another faction was trying the legal/democratic route. after all Hamas was keeping with a ceasefire while still having members being assassinated by Israel and they were forming a unity government with the West Bank... positive steps that were stamped out with this current situation.

Are there better ways to go about occupation/invasion, especially in the case of the Palestinians? certainly but unless something changes health wise, educationally, psychologically, socially, I don't see that changing and the only way those changes can come about is if Israel stops impeding and destroying life for them especially when Palestinians & Hamas tries to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvst8 (Post 8507199)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Presto (Post 8507204)
^^^
What a steaming load of propaganda
Actually that's accurate...

multicartual 07-24-2014 11:57 AM
Look at all the time and energy you people wasted over this bullshit!

StylinRed 07-24-2014 01:02 PM
So Israel just bombed a UN run school in Gaza which was housing families escaping the destruction 15 were killed 200 injured while the BBC was filming at the hospital an Israel tank shell hits outside the hospital. The death toll stands at over 750 now

Video in the link BBC News - Gaza UN school shelter hit, 'killing 15'

Quote:
Gaza UN school shelter hit, 'killing 15'


At least 15 people were killed and more than 200 injured when a UN-run school used as a shelter in Gaza came under fire, Gazan health officials say.

Palestinian families were in the school in Beit Hanoun, fleeing Israel's offensive against Hamas militants.

In the past 16 days of fighting, more than 750 Palestinians and 33 Israelis have been killed, officials say.

This is the buffer zone Israel has created the already densely packed Gaza. Everyone in the buffer zone is called to leave

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image..._14_624map.gif

multicartual 07-24-2014 01:09 PM
Gaza is the muslim militant's dream come true, it is the best recruiting tool for the extremists!


It is basically like the rest of the muslim world wants those people to suffer and get killed and fight a proxy war against Israel to lose so that it helps foster worldwide extremism and solidarity between muslims. Providing a common enemy brings them together.


That place is like, performance art.


"Look at our suffering! The Jews hate us!"

Ulic Qel-Droma 07-24-2014 01:12 PM
excuse my ignorance but.... wouldn't the gaza strip population be exponentially shrinking?

no one can go in or leave? and i'm sure they're being killed faster than they reproduce right?

at this rate of war, when will they lose by default just from being unable to maintain their population rate to cover the amount of land they defend?

StylinRed 07-24-2014 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by multicartual (Post 8507393)
Gaza is the muslim militant's dream come true, it is the best recruiting tool for the extremists!


It is basically like the rest of the muslim world wants those people to suffer and get killed and fight a proxy war against Israel to lose so that it helps foster worldwide extremism and solidarity between muslims. Providing a common enemy brings them together.


That place is like, performance art.


"Look at our suffering! The Jews hate us!"
You may be right as it boggles the mind that the only country willing to provide support, even if its just lip service, is Shia Iran (Palestine's sunni)
All the other countries don't care, even terror groups like the current flavour of the month ISIS says the true enemy are Shias that's why they don't care about Israel http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.605097

Ball.J.Inder 07-24-2014 05:15 PM
An interesting page... whether the majority of it is real I don't know.

https://www.facebook.com/muslim4israel/timeline

CharlesInCharge 07-24-2014 05:38 PM
Im interested in knowing more about the CIC effect :p

We basically have a culture of ignorace, Id like to speculate its because there are many mildy autistic adults in our population but the probable truth is people are heavily indoctornated not to question alternative sources.
Strangley I dont even have to post conspiracy links in the following to prove my points yet people will knowingly or unknowingly stay dumb and never adopt this truth...
The truth, Jews are being used as military and political personal for one world government aspirations.

1. First of all the original Jews of the past are mixed amoung the present day Palestians.
Israel's surprising best seller contradicts founding ideology
Israel's surprising best seller contradicts founding ideology | The Electronic Intifada


2. When the Rothschilds owned the Bank of England it funded the Nazi regime (killing and expelling Jews) during the same time it established Isreal.

Proof of this can be found in an article by the UK Telegrpah which originated before Canada and overtime even Canada's own Conrad Black (once the world's third biggest newspaper magnate) once owned it.
It shows how the Bank of England (owned by Rothschilds as its actual British history) was funding Hitler.
Never mind the Czech gold the Nazis stole... - Telegraph
Quote:
During the war the BIS proclaimed that it was neutral, a view supported by the Bank of England. In fact the BIS was so entwined with the Nazi economy that it helped keep the Third Reich in business.
.....
This interest was used by the BIS to pay dividends to shareholders – which included the Bank of England.

The BBC showing Rothschilds establishment of Isreal.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-20524115
Quote:
The 1917 Declaration, in the form of a letter by the then foreign secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild, is regarded as the first significant assertion by a world power of their support for a Jewish "national home" in what was then known as Palestine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by multicartual (Post 8507393)
Gaza is the muslim militant's dream come true, it is the best recruiting tool for the extremists!
.......
"Look at our suffering! The Jews hate us!"
Multicartual how would you commentary the US fundings?
Spoiler!

bobbinka 07-24-2014 06:52 PM
there he is!

Hondaracer 07-24-2014 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge (Post 8507498)
Spoiler!
http://i40.tinypic.com/k013lg.gif

honestly i think this whole thing talk about "civilians" is irrelevant

neither side gives a fuck about "civilians" to me its actually kind of funny how us sitting over here in safe Canada relaxing in our homes are worried about "civilians" over there

there is no line, it's Israeli's VS Palestinians, thats it.

and i'm sure its exactly like the Israeli's have been saying, that these "targets" which have been shooting rockets from Gaza are indeed hospitals, schools, etc. Hamas just uses them thinking they wont be bombed

StylinRed 07-24-2014 08:02 PM
^^ yeah I'm sure a UN run school and a media-ridden hospital will have militants launching rockets from them

FS1992EG 07-24-2014 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondaracer (Post 8507557)
http://i40.tinypic.com/k013lg.gif

honestly i think this whole thing talk about "civilians" is irrelevant

neither side gives a fuck about "civilians" to me its actually kind of funny how us sitting over here in safe Canada relaxing in our homes are worried about "civilians" over there

there is no line, it's Israeli's VS Palestinians, thats it.

and i'm sure its exactly like the Israeli's have been saying, that these "targets" which have been shooting rockets from Gaza are indeed hospitals, schools, etc. Hamas just uses them thinking they wont be bombed
Your not smart.

War is about killing the enemy soldiers, not killing civilians. This ordeal is a war crime and punishable in the World Court. Israel has committed them countless time during this siege to fight the "terrorists"

Israel has never declared it's boarders and don't even recognize Palestine. When Israel pushes the Palestinians into the sea or Eygpt. They will declare themselves as a country and tell the UN that they were not subject to war crimes because they weren't declared a state, country, or nation at the time of the events.

bobbinka 07-24-2014 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS1992EG (Post 8507597)
Your not smart.
:pokerface:

...

..

:lawl:

CharlesInCharge 07-24-2014 09:19 PM
For all the14 dollar ballers in this forum, here's a break down visual of how much the US tax payer sends to Isreal every month... you dont want to know how many decades this has been going on for.


Doing some calculations...
3,200,000,000 billion a year welfare divided by $250,000 (price of used Ferrari Italia) = 12,800 Italia's a year.

12,800 cars divided by 12 months = 1066 Italia's a month

The US gives over 1000 Ferrari Italia's to Isreal every month, or actually 35 a day, Why?
What 1000 Ferrari's look like.

CivicBlues 07-25-2014 09:43 AM
QFT:

Quote:

The differences between Hamas and Israel are so profound, it’s almost as though the two aren’t living in the same century.

The Hamas war against Israel pits cheap rockets — basically the 21st-century version of an exploding cannonball — against a high-tech military so sophisticated, it can send harmless “door-knocking” bombs to land on the roofs of buildings to warn its targets inside that the next live bomb will level the place.

One side is monstrous but hapless: Hamas is looking to create mass terror through the deliberate targeting of enemy civilians, has fired 500 rockets, and has killed exactly one Israeli.

The other side is effective, at times to its own disadvantage: Israel wants to eliminate weapons caches and does whatever it can to minimize civilian casualties but has killed 200 in Gaza — almost entirely because Hamas wants to use its own people both as human shields and as public-relations weapons.

But take the war away, and what do you see about the differences between Hamas and Israel?

It was nine years ago that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. It was seven years ago that Hamas took control of Gaza following an election in which the terrorist group routed the Palestinian Authority (which controls the West Bank).

The area has been entirely under Palestinian dominion.

Since 2005, Israel’s overall econ$omy has grown almost 60 percent larger, with an annual GDP growth rate of 4.5 percent.

Israel, once the globe’s poorest democracy, ranks 37th among nations in overall GDP and its per-capita income of $31,000 per year makes it the 25th-richest country on Earth.

And Gaza? Its economy is largely frozen. Its per-capita income hovers around $2,000. Because its people elected a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel, almost all economic ties between the growing economic giant and the basket case have been severed.

No rational outside investor wants to have anything to do with Gaza, given its management and the simple fact that its government seems to be obsessed with getting itself into a destructive war with its neighbor every couple of years.

And not only that, but Gazans exist in a bizarre condition known nowhere else on Earth. Nearly 1.2 million of the area’s 1.5 million residents are classified as “refugees,” notwithstanding the fact that almost all of them were born there. They live in eight “refugee camps” — towns that are now 65 years old.

As Michael Bernstam of the Hoover Institution has written, “These camps were established in 1949 and have been financed ever since by the United Nations Relief and Work Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. Yet far from seeking to help residents build a new and better life either in Gaza or elsewhere, UNRWA is paying millions of refugees to perpetuate their refugee status, generation after generation, as they await their forcible return to the land inside the State of Israel.”

Ulic Qel-Droma 07-25-2014 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS1992EG (Post 8507597)
War is about killing the enemy soldiers, not killing civilians. This ordeal is a war crime and punishable in the World Court.
nah man.

war is about winning.

If I were at war, i'd only follow the rules so I don't make more enemies (only if it's strategically sound). but if I could break the rules and get away with it. I would. If I had to drop a small nuke meaning tons of civilian death, I would do it if necessary.

you must remember, the civilians are the backbone of their economy. if you can cripple the source, they're fucked. if it's strategically sound, and my goal is to WIN, then... yeah, sorry dude. THAT'S WAR.

if I won, fuck the world court, i'd kill em off after too if they wanna oppose me.
if I lose, then the world court can do whatever they want with me... I LOST THE WAR. I took the risk and failed.

that being said. I don't wanna go to war.

But your definition of war is fucked up.

there are no rules. you do what you can.

m!chael 07-25-2014 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinRed (Post 8507567)
^^ yeah I'm sure a UN run school and a media-ridden hospital will have militants launching rockets from them
Secretary-General, Outraged at Rockets Found in United Nations-administered School in Gaza, Directs Full Review, Swift Implementation of Security Plan

Quote:
he following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:

The Secretary-General is alarmed to hear that rockets were placed in an UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) school in Gaza and that subsequently these have gone missing. He expresses his outrage, and regret, at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school. By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.

The Secretary-General notes that this is inconsistent with UN Security Council resolution 1860 (2009), which calls for the prevention of arms smuggling. He demands that militant groups, who are responsible, must stop such actions and should be held accountable for endangering the lives of civilians in this manner.

The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation.

The Secretary-General calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.

Finally, the Secretary-General expresses his full support for the tremendous work of the staff of UNRWA, who continue to operate under deeply challenging circumstances.
I think you have a very selective view of the conflict, maybe its a confirmation bias type thing where you only go to news sources that confirm your own opinion. Who knows. Either way, there has been a lot of reports of militants firing rockets from populated neighborhoods, nearby mosques, hospitals, schools, etc. There has also been evidence that they store weapons in such places.

CivicBlues 07-25-2014 12:45 PM
Anybody else think that CharlesInCharge and StylinRed are the same person? I don't know, I don't have any evidence to support this claim but then again I don't have any evidence to disprove it either.

So it must be true.

:suspicious:

StylinRed 07-25-2014 02:29 PM
I stand corrected damn...I am shocked and disgusted...wow

Quote:
I think you have a very selective view of the conflict, maybe its a confirmation bias type thing where you only go to news sources that confirm your own opinion. Who knows. Either way, there has been a lot of reports of militants firing rockets from populated neighborhoods, nearby mosques, hospitals, schools, etc. There has also been evidence that they store weapons in such places.
i go to most of them except for FOX and Conspiracy sites that CIC quotes (i guess you could lump fox into those types of sites)
There have always been accusations but never do you see a quote report like the one you provided above...wow

StylinRed 07-25-2014 03:04 PM
12hr truce while a 7 day truce is being negotiated

over 800 civilians dead and 36 idf agents

BBC News - Gaza conflict: Israel and Hamas 'agree short truce'

Quote:
Gaza conflict: Israel and Hamas 'agree short truce'


Israel and Hamas have agreed to a 12-hour pause in hostilities in Gaza, reports say.

The truce is due to begin at 0800 local time (0500 GMT). Efforts to negotiate a seven-day ceasefire are still ongoing.

Earlier US Secretary of State John Kerry said he was still confident of a longer ceasefire, despite media reports that Israel had rejected one proposal.

Ronin 07-25-2014 03:11 PM
I can see valid arguments on both sides so I just think we need to stay the fuck out of it and let whatever happens happen because regardless of how the West tries to "help", they're just going to fuck it up more.

Let them resolve it themselves. Sure, plenty of people will die but they couldn't play nice so that's the fate they resigned themselves to. TONS of people have tried to resolve this conflict and every time, it just goes back to "WELL OUR GOD SAYS THIS IS OURS!" "NO, YOUR GOD SMELLS! THIS IS OUR LAND!" and so on. If it has to do with religion, people can't act as rational human beings so just let the ideologists work it out amongst themselves who the holy land belongs to.

Until this somehow affects us in Canada, well, I just can't be bothered anymore.

StylinRed 07-25-2014 03:47 PM
BBC Hardtalk has a new interview with the Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal

It's quite a good watch, switch to the BBC if you're by your TV

Unfortunately there are only 1-3min clips online currently

It provides a good insight to the view that Hamas is promoting


you can watch the full 30min interview here http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...eader-of-hamas or whenever its airing on tv


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