REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Vancouver Auto Chat

Vancouver Auto Chat 2016 VAC Community Head Moderator: Raid3n

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-27-2014, 05:42 PM   #1
MiX iT Up!
 
tiger_handheld's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,034
Thanked 2,021 Times in 841 Posts
School me on car audio

I'm trying to put together a sub and amp and i'm trying to figure out how to buy the correct 'amp wiring kit'. I've reached out the two favourite audio sponsors here and they've given me their quotes/advise on how it should be done. I figured I should at least learn a thing or two even though I will take my car to one of them.

So, the amp has the following specs:

4-ohm Power:
200 watts x 1

2-ohm Power:
300 watts x 1

1-ohm Mono Power:
500 watts x 1

Peak Power:
1000 watts


The wire kit has the following specs:
  • 8 Gauge OFC Amp Kit Power/Ground Amp Install Kit
  • HEPTAflex ultra-flexible MAXX blue power wire
  • 735 strands of high-grade pure copper
  • For systems up to 700 watts RMS
  • FLEXIbrass AGU fuse holder with 60amp AGU fuse installed
  • Tinned copper resists oxidation
  • Easy-open perforated packaging


This is all french to me. Can someone explain the following:

1-Peak power vs 4ohm power? Do I not get 1000W? I only have 1 sub



2-What is RMS power and how does that convert to 4ohm, 2ohm, peak power?



3-Gauge I presume is the thickness of wire. Is thicker the better?

4-I was told Oxygen Free is better than Copper Clad Alum. Whats the chemistry behind this?
Advertisement
__________________

Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.


Make the effort and take the risk..

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
tiger_handheld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2014, 05:51 PM   #2
Need to Seek Professional Help
 
LenovoTurbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: H2K
Posts: 1,002
Thanked 290 Times in 100 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld View Post
I'm trying to put together a sub and amp and i'm trying to figure out how to buy the correct 'amp wiring kit'. I've reached out the two favourite audio sponsors here and they've given me their quotes/advise on how it should be done. I figured I should at least learn a thing or two even though I will take my car to one of them.

So, the amp has the following specs:

4-ohm Power:
200 watts x 1

2-ohm Power:
300 watts x 1

1-ohm Mono Power:
500 watts x 1

Peak Power:
1000 watts


The wire kit has the following specs:
  • 8 Gauge OFC Amp Kit Power/Ground Amp Install Kit
  • HEPTAflex ultra-flexible MAXX blue power wire
  • 735 strands of high-grade pure copper
  • For systems up to 700 watts RMS
  • FLEXIbrass AGU fuse holder with 60amp AGU fuse installed
  • Tinned copper resists oxidation
  • Easy-open perforated packaging


This is all french to me. Can someone explain the following:

1-Peak power vs 4ohm power? Do I not get 1000W? I only have 1 sub



2-What is RMS power and how does that convert to 4ohm, 2ohm, peak power?



3-Gauge I presume is the thickness of wire. Is thicker the better?

4-I was told Oxygen Free is better than Copper Clad Alum. Whats the chemistry behind this?

Peak power is the power that may be reached at one point so it does not matter at all. RMS is the continuous power that it will run at.

The RMS depends on your subwoofer configuration. Since your amp is 1 ohm stable, you would want a 2+2 ohm dual voice coil subwoofer. Wired in parallel would put you at 1ohms. When subwoofer is wired at 1 ohms, it will be driven at 500 watts.

Yes thicker wire would be better, but for 500 watts, a true 8 gauge is good enough.
LenovoTurbo is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-27-2014, 08:14 PM   #3
I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
 
gramser57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: .
Posts: 3,689
Thanked 339 Times in 103 Posts
I would go straight to OFC 4gauge power wire, it would give you an option to upgrade to a more powerful amp down the road.
__________________
FB6 Si
F26 M Sport
C11 SL
gramser57 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-27-2014, 08:26 PM   #4
MiX iT Up!
 
tiger_handheld's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,034
Thanked 2,021 Times in 841 Posts
Do do you compare RMS to wattage at 1ohm then? Is 1 ohm the true power of the amp?

Wire parallel? 2 + 2 ohm? What? Is there perpendicular wiring? What if its 4 + 4? I'm lost on this point.

4 gauge vs 8 gauge. Lower the number thicker the wire?
__________________

Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.


Make the effort and take the risk..

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
tiger_handheld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2014, 08:36 PM   #5
I subscribe to the Fight Club ONLY
 
Volvo-brickster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Coquitlam
Posts: 7,086
Thanked 2,110 Times in 262 Posts
Shameless plug for an amp if you want one

http://www.revscene.net/forums/69576...block-amp.html



2 and 1 ohm stable
Volvo-brickster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2014, 09:12 PM   #6
I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
 
gramser57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: .
Posts: 3,689
Thanked 339 Times in 103 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld View Post
Do do you compare RMS to wattage at 1ohm then? Is 1 ohm the true power of the amp?

Wire parallel? 2 + 2 ohm? What? Is there perpendicular wiring? What if its 4 + 4? I'm lost on this point.

4 gauge vs 8 gauge. Lower the number thicker the wire?
1ohm is the lowest impedance you can safely run the amp, the lower impedance the more watts in rms the amp will produce.

Dual voice coils on subs will give you options to wire the final impedence. Example on a dual 2 ohm voice coil subwoofer you can wire the subs in either series or parallel to give you 1 ohm or 4ohm options.

Lower the number the thicker the wire.
__________________
FB6 Si
F26 M Sport
C11 SL
gramser57 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-28-2014, 07:24 AM   #7
MiX iT Up!
 
tiger_handheld's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,034
Thanked 2,021 Times in 841 Posts
My sub has these following specs:
Size: 10in
Power Handling
(RMS/Peak):
275/550 watts
Nominal Impedance:
Single 4-ohm or Dual 4-ohm
Voice Coil Size: 2 in
Frequency Response:
33Hz - 500Hz (Single)
33Hz - 500Hz (Dual)
Sensitivity: 86dB
Cutout Diameter: 9 1/8 (230.1mm)
Mounting Depth: 5.25 in
VC Impedance: 4 ohm + 4 ohm
Test Impedance: 1.6 ohms
Fs: 33 Hz
SD: 330.06 sqCM
Vas: 39.7 Ltr
Cms: 256 ÁM/N
Mms: 98.5 g
BL™: 7.44
Qms: 4.85
Qes: 0.566
Qts: 0.51
No: 0.2%
Spl: 86 dB
Xmax: 9.5 mm

Since its only 1 sub, and it says 4+4 ohm, can it still operate at 1ohm? Which means to power this sub 500W sub the amp will put out 500W and the 8 guage wire kit is ok because it can handle upto 700W?

Also, series wiring is christmas lights right? Where one powers the other?


Oxygen Free vs. CCA - What makes Oxygen free better?
__________________

Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.


Make the effort and take the risk..

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
tiger_handheld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 07:40 AM   #8
I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
 
gramser57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: .
Posts: 3,689
Thanked 339 Times in 103 Posts

This is wired in Parallel, the lowest you can wire too is 2ohm. If you wired in series it would be 8ohm.
Oxygen Free Copper VS Copper Clad Aluminum. Copper is a better conductor than aluminum which in return will have steadier voltage feeding your amp. If price of wire is a concern you can pick up welding wire at princess auto for dirt cheap.

Are you running a ported or sealed enclosure?
__________________
FB6 Si
F26 M Sport
C11 SL
gramser57 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-28-2014, 08:12 AM   #9
Head Moderator
 
Lomac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1982
Location: Great White Nor
Posts: 22,643
Thanked 6,409 Times in 2,069 Posts
I've used welding cable in the past. Only downside is that it's more of a solid cable than strand, so trying to get it around tight corners is a PITA.

That's about the extend of my car audio knowledge.
Lomac is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-28-2014, 08:23 AM   #10
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld View Post
So, the amp has the following specs:

4-ohm Power:
200 watts x 1

2-ohm Power:
300 watts x 1

1-ohm Mono Power:
500 watts x 1

Peak Power:
1000 watts


The wire kit has the following specs:
  • 8 Gauge OFC Amp Kit Power/Ground Amp Install Kit
  • HEPTAflex ultra-flexible MAXX blue power wire
  • 735 strands of high-grade pure copper
  • For systems up to 700 watts RMS
  • FLEXIbrass AGU fuse holder with 60amp AGU fuse installed
  • Tinned copper resists oxidation
  • Easy-open perforated packaging


This is all french to me. Can someone explain the following:

1-Peak power vs 4ohm power? Do I not get 1000W? I only have 1 sub
As already noted, 1000W is the peak power that the amp can deliver for a short period. The other ratings are "RMS continuous" power.

Quote:
2-What is RMS power and how does that convert to 4ohm, 2ohm, peak power?
RMS (Root Mean Square) is a method of averaging that gives you the "real" power of an AC waveform.

Power is derived from the formula P=VI, or voltage times current. At a given voltage, current is derived from Ohm's Law, I=V/R, or voltage divided by resistance. So power can be calculated using P=V^2/R, or voltage squared, divided by resistance.

As you can see, as the resistance becomes less, the power across it increases (because you're dividing it by a smaller number). Now in theory, halving the resistance should double the power; however, there are numerous design factors that may limit the REAL increase in real-world situations - current capability (lower resistance means more current draw, which can cause supply voltage to drop, and also generates more heat), power supply design, types of output stages, the desire to stay below a certain distortion level, and others.

One important thing to note: these calculations are based on DC resistance, while speakers are a very reactive load, and the ACTUAL resistance (or impedance, properly) they present to the amp will vary depending on the frequency... which is another thing that can affect the real-world output.

Quote:
3-Gauge I presume is the thickness of wire. Is thicker the better?
Quote:
4 gauge vs 8 gauge. Lower the number thicker the wire?
Correct. If you want to bend your brain a bit, details are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
Quote:
4-I was told Oxygen Free is better than Copper Clad Alum. Whats the chemistry behind this?
Put simply, the more copper, the more efficiently the cable will carry electricity. Aluminum is a fair conductor, but not as good as copper. For short runs, there won't be a noticeable distance, but for longer runs and higher current draw, the added resistance of CCA will result in voltage loss at the the amp end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld View Post
Wire parallel? 2 + 2 ohm? What? Is there perpendicular wiring? What if its 4 + 4? I'm lost on this point.
The two types of circuits here are parallel and series (not perpendicular). When dealing with resistance or impedance, you calculate total resistance of a series circuit by simply adding the two numbers... so two 2-ohm coils in series would be 4 ohms.

In parallel, you add the reciprocals of those numbers then take the reciprocal of that, ie. Rt = 1/(1/R1 + 1/R2)... so two 4-ohm coils in parallel would be 1/(1/4 + 1/4) = 1/(1/2) = 2 ohm. Easier way to think of that last step is just to flip the result... so 1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2, and flip it over (2/1).


__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"

Last edited by Soundy; 08-28-2014 at 08:35 AM.
Soundy is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-28-2014, 08:28 AM   #11
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
BTW, there's a lot of really great info here, arranged in a sort of "tutorial" format that you can work your way through, learning the basics and then building on that as you go: Car Stereo, Mobile Video, Navigation
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"
Soundy is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-28-2014, 08:29 PM   #12
MiX iT Up!
 
tiger_handheld's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,034
Thanked 2,021 Times in 841 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramser57 View Post
Are you running a ported or sealed enclosure?
I have a sealed box. After reading, I realized I didn't want the big BOOM rather more clear bass, and sealed offered that. Hopefully the amp will be powerful enough to run the sub as a result.


Also, just want to say THANKS! to everyone that's been answering my questions. Hopefully, this thread will help another noob learn as well..
__________________

Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.


Make the effort and take the risk..

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
tiger_handheld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 08:37 PM   #13
MiX iT Up!
 
tiger_handheld's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,034
Thanked 2,021 Times in 841 Posts
So I get the sub to amp wiring now... I think!!

How does the power wire for the amp play the factor?

I presume thicker wire is better because it has more strands?
Also using my example, the 700W wire will be reasonable because the sub/amp max power is 500W.

With that in mind, is the constraint usually the sub? Meaning if the Sub had 1000W but amp had 2000W and the wire had 3500W, no matter what the, the most wattage from the sub is 1000W? If the person had two 1000W subs wired in parellel, the sub would be 500? (assuming 4ohm = 1000 , 2ohm = 500 , 1ohm 250 - is this even a possible?)?
__________________

Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.


Make the effort and take the risk..

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
tiger_handheld is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-28-2014, 08:52 PM   #14
RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
 
Jmac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Duncan, BC
Posts: 9,585
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,915 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld View Post
So I get the sub to amp wiring now... I think!!

How does the power wire for the amp play the factor?

I presume thicker wire is better because it has more strands?
Also using my example, the 700W wire will be reasonable because the sub/amp max power is 500W.

With that in mind, is the constraint usually the sub? Meaning if the Sub had 1000W but amp had 2000W and the wire had 3500W, no matter what the, the most wattage from the sub is 1000W? If the person had two 1000W subs wired in parellel, the sub would be 500? (assuming 4ohm = 1000 , 2ohm = 500 , 1ohm 250 - is this even a possible?)?
The number of strands doesn't really matter as far as the current-handling capability or resistance of the wire (it'll make an insignificant improvement). What matters is the cross-sectional area (or, more accurately, the circumference). More strands will generally result in a more flexible wire, however, so if you have to make a long run with many turns, more strands can make it easier to route the cable. But yes, thicker is better as a general rule of thumb, but you can go too big (won't fit in your amp, difficult to get through your vehicle, etc.).

Speakers don't have "watts." The rating is simply how much power the sub can handle.

The amplifier's rating is how much power it can produce, usually advertised with a given input voltage (from your alternator/battery) at a given distortion level.
Jmac is online now   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-28-2014, 09:38 PM   #15
I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
 
gramser57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: .
Posts: 3,689
Thanked 339 Times in 103 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld View Post
With that in mind, is the constraint usually the sub? Meaning if the Sub had 1000W but amp had 2000W and the wire had 3500W, no matter what the, the most wattage from the sub is 1000W?
RMS rating for a sub is its thermal limits before the voice coils heat up and fry, peak is what it can handle for short bursts.

The reason why I ask about your enclosure is the sub specs that you posted is aligned better for a ported box.
__________________
FB6 Si
F26 M Sport
C11 SL
gramser57 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-29-2014, 03:33 PM   #16
RS Licensed Vendor
 
Cman333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: 604
Posts: 14,501
Thanked 995 Times in 327 Posts
I've guessing this is for the sub won from us on FB. You basically need a 2ohm stable mono amp that pushes around 300RMS. Depending on the amp and it's current draw likely an 8AWG OFC kit will be sufficient. Lower the "GAUGE" wire, the thicker the wire is. Don't confuse AWG (AKA American Wiring Gauge) with GAUGE. AWG is standardized. Most no name companies use thick insulation but the wiring inside is much thinner. So what they'll call "4 gauge wiring" is really more like 8AWG or less.

Just remember it takes power to make power. If you have a huge amp and use thin wiring, yes it will work, but not properly. Think like a fire hose vs a garden hose. Which is gonna be able to supply more water (Or current).

Like one other member said, I would recommend 4AWG to give you room for expansion down the road. Down the road you may want to add a speaker amp or a bigger sub + sub amp. Price difference is marginal. That way if you do upgrade you don't have to reinstall the power wire again.
__________________
BPG AUTOSOUND
#8-2900 Smith St
Richmond, BC
604.278.4142


"High Fidelity Mobile Audio"

Authorized Retailer For:
Focal, Audison, Mosconi, Hertz, Rockford Fosgate, JVC, Kenwood, Clarion, Escort, AntiLaser Priority, Stinger Radar, Beltronics, Compustar, Thinkware, BlackeVue, Lukas plus much more!

----->BPG Autosound's Facebook<-----
----->BPG Autosound's Instagram<-----
***2017 BEST LASER JAMMER - ANTILASER PRIORITY***






Last edited by Cman333; 08-29-2014 at 03:40 PM.
Cman333 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 08-29-2014, 04:44 PM   #17
14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
 
finbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1966 Mustang
Posts: 616
Thanked 1,979 Times in 262 Posts
The length of power supply conductor matters.




Perry Babin has a useful explanation here with a couple of handy calculators.
__________________
Quote:
Chips, cheese and booze
Bev
finbar is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net