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Police Forum Police Head Mod: Skidmark
Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 10-03-2014, 09:03 AM   #1
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licence plate covers

Hi, i'm just wondering, i got a $230 ticket for a licence plate cover on my dad's vehicle.. call me unlucky as i'm just borrowing the car as my car is in the shop for some body works.. anyways.. the cover in question i have is installed by the dealer. it's a BMW BJ frame cover that's installed by the dealer and it's been on the car for 7years now.. can i

a) go to the dealer and ask them why they put an illegal cover on my car and make them pay the $230?

or

b) try to dispute and see if they'll waive it for 1st time?? $230 is a pretty hefty fine for a cover that's not reflective nor was it meant to obscure vision as it was installed by the dealers and not us..

call me stupid but i didn't know the rules regarding the covers and furthermore i don't even notice them coz it's my parents car and not mine. Also the fact that they've been pulled over once before for speeding and the cop never mentioned anything about the licence plate cover then so they don't even know it's illegal.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:23 AM   #2
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Question - The Cover was installed over the Plate?
Answer - they were breaking the law, just because they never got pulled over before doesn't make it any less against the law. should you have gotten a warning instead? possibly, but it was still breaking the law.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:33 AM   #3
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They sell plastic covers at CT too, it's not illegal for CT to sell them but it's illegal for someone to install it onto their car.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:41 AM   #4
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my question was can i make the dealer pay for it since it's their plate cover that they installed on all their cars. it's not something i went out to buy and installed... i'm not asking if they are legal or not. it's illegal for someone to install it onto their car.. so it's illegal for BJ to install it on my car then.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:43 AM   #5
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All dealers do that. I have it on my car as well. If I were you, I'd take it to the dealer and ask them to pay for it.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:56 AM   #6
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Did you get the ticket at the byrne meet?



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Old 10-03-2014, 10:02 AM   #7
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lol no.. it's unfortunate coz i was just driving this car coz my other car is being wrapped =\
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:16 AM   #8
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Even soccer parents were getting in trouble for having a bicycle rack on their cars.
The racks partially obstructed the plates and police officers were issuing them tickets.

When I had my motorcycle carrier on, my plate is unobstructed. But when I load my sportbike onto it, you cannot see the plate at all, hence why I had the plate zap strapped to the carrier.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:51 AM   #9
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ok the section 3.03 states: A number plate must be kept entirely unobstructed and free from dirt or foreign material, so that the numbers and letters on it may be clearly seen and read at all times and so that the numbers and letters may be accurately photographed using a speed monitoring device prescribed under section 83.1 of the Act

so the act doesn't say I'm not allow to have anything on my plate. it saids i'm not allow to have anything on my plate that prevents them from reading and photographing the plate. So my question is the cover is clear, and i just used a high camera flash in a dark area to flash the plates and it still clearly shows the plate without obstructing it. is it technically legal then? the BMW cover i think is just a dust cover or something.. and it does not obstruct with viewing the numbers and letters clearly on the plate. so in theory i meet the 2 conditions that i bolded?
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:33 AM   #10
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3.03 states: A number plate must be kept entirely unobstructed and free from dirt or foreign material,so that the numbers and letters on it may be clearly seen and read at all times and so that the numbers and letters may be accurately photographed using a speed monitoring device prescribed under section 83.1 of the Act

Fixed.

You can even get a ticket for a dirty plate. It does not need to cause the numbers to be hard to see for it to be illegal.

Plate frames of all types are and have always been illegal however they have been VERY lax about this as they don't cause a problem for seeing or photographing the plate. Regardless of how lax they have been, according to the letter of the law, it is in fact illegal to put these plate frames on cars.

You can ask the dealer, but they are not responsible for knowledge of the law or your car once you leave the dealership.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostedBB6 View Post
3.03 states: A number plate must be kept entirely unobstructed and free from dirt or foreign material,so that the numbers and letters on it may be clearly seen and read at all times and so that the numbers and letters may be accurately photographed using a speed monitoring device prescribed under section 83.1 of the Act

Fixed.

You can even get a ticket for a dirty plate. It does not need to cause the numbers to be hard to see for it to be illegal.

Plate frames of all types are and have always been illegal however they have been VERY lax about this as they don't cause a problem for seeing or photographing the plate. Regardless of how lax they have been, according to the letter of the law, it is in fact illegal to put these plate frames on cars.

You can ask the dealer, but they are not responsible for knowledge of the law or your car once you leave the dealership.
they are however repsonisble for selling you a car that's MVA compliance before you leave the lot unless you sign a waiver form?
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:50 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terkan View Post
Hi, i'm just wondering, i got a $230 ticket for a licence plate cover on my dad's vehicle.. call me unlucky as i'm just borrowing the car
Get the ticket amended to the registered owner and make your dad pay for not owning a MVA complainant vehicle
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:56 AM   #13
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Cop should've handled it differently IMO.
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terkan View Post
they are however repsonisble for selling you a car that's MVA compliance before you leave the lot unless you sign a waiver form?
The vehicle complies with all regulations of the MVA, the plate frame is not part of the vehicle.
You don't have to keep the plate frames on the car when you take delivery of the vehicle, that's your choice. Personally I don't use one with any dealer name on it, I'm not paid to advertise for the dealer so I'm not putting there crap on my vehicle.
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Old 10-03-2014, 02:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terkan View Post
my question was can i make the dealer pay for it since it's their plate cover that they installed on all their cars. it's not something i went out to buy and installed... i'm not asking if they are legal or not. it's illegal for someone to install it onto their car.. so it's illegal for BJ to install it on my car then.

Sale of motor vehicle contrary to regulations
222 A person must not sell, offer for sale, expose or display for sale or deliver over to a purchaser for use a motor vehicle, trailer or equipment for them that is not in accordance with this Act and the regulations.



If the plate cover was installed when they got the car, then this should be quoted to the dealer. The motor dealer regs/act also says that the sales contract must contain a clause that the vehicle meets the legal requirements. If it did and the car didn't, then the dealer has a problem.
The owner of the vehicle who bought itg from the dealer should be having a conversation with them about the VT. I know dealers who sold all sorts of vehicles with edfective equipment installed. Tinted windown was one of them.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zulutango View Post
Sale of motor vehicle contrary to regulations
222 A person must not sell, offer for sale, expose or display for sale or deliver over to a purchaser for use a motor vehicle, trailer or equipment for them that is not in accordance with this Act and the regulations.



If the plate cover was installed when they got the car, then this should be quoted to the dealer. The motor dealer regs/act also says that the sales contract must contain a clause that the vehicle meets the legal requirements. If it did and the car didn't, then the dealer has a problem.
The owner of the vehicle who bought itg from the dealer should be having a conversation with them about the VT. I know dealers who sold all sorts of vehicles with edfective equipment installed. Tinted windown was one of them.
Section 222 does not apply to dealers or commercial sellers of vehicles. It only applies to an individual.
Section 223 is what applies to a dealer.
223. (1) A manufacturer or distributor of a motor vehicle or trailer manufactured in British
Columbia for sale in British Columbia and a dealer must not sell, offer for sale, display for sale or deliver over to a person for use a new motor vehicle or trailer of a class prescribed by the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) unless the motor vehicle or trailer and its components comply with safety standards prescribed in the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) and the regulations under it, bear the National Safety Mark and display the statement of compliance as required by those regulations.
(2) A distributor or dealer must not modify or alter a new motor vehicle or trailer, or exchange components of a new motor vehicle or trailer of a class for which standards are prescribed, in a manner that the motor vehicle or trailer does not comply with the safety standards prescribed in the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) and the regulations made under it.
(3) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations prohibiting
(a) the installation of components in a motor vehicle or trailer or the removal
or alteration of any components of a motor vehicle or trailer if the
installation, alteration or removal affects or is likely to affect the
functioning of the motor vehicle or trailer so that it no longer meets the
safety standards that were, at the time of its first retail sale, applicable to it
and its components under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), and
(b) the operation, driving or parking on a highway of a motor vehicle or trailer in which a component has been installed or altered or from which a
component has been removed contrary to a regulation made under
paragraph (a).


They are only bound by the Motor Vehicle Safety Act of Canada when producing a vehicle for sale. They must insure that the vehicle is safe to operate, but are not required to do anything further than that.
A plate frame is not part of the car and is also not regulated by the Motor Vehicle Safety Act of Canada.

You can try to convince the dealer its on them but I can assure you that it is not there responsibility to cover this despite it being there plate covers they put on.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:12 PM   #17
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The only exception to the above stated is when dealing with used vehicles.

21.(2) Where a motor dealer makes a written representation in the form of a sales or purchase agreement respecting the sale by him of a used motor vehicle, he shall include the particulars required for a new motor vehicle under subsection (1) and
(a) any documentation or transfer fee,
(b) the recorded odometer reading at the time of sale,
(c) the name of any jurisdiction known to the motor dealer other than British Columbia in which the motor vehicle has previously been registered,
(d) an itemized list of any repairs to be effected and the additional cost, if any,
(e) a statement that the motor vehicle complies with the requirements of the Motor Vehicle Act, and
(f) in the case of a motor vehicle not suitable for transportation a statement to that effect.
(2.1) Repealed. [B.C. Reg. 241/2004, Sch. 1.]
(3) A motor dealer shall give a duplicate copy of the sales or purchase agreement to the purchaser or seller, as the case may be, at the time it is accepted by the motor dealer.


When they sell a used vehicle they are required to insure that it meets the Motor Vehicle Act (not Motor Vehicle Safety Act). if your parents purchased the vehicle used they may have a case to present the dealer, if new they have no leg to stand on other than good will from the dealer.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:48 PM   #18
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dispute it. I think this is where judgement of the officer comes into play.

If everyone on the road drives 60km/h and limit is 50km/h, should the officer ticket everyone for speeding or let it be as it is the "normal flow of traffic".

I respect the officers and what they do, but some are just power tripping jerks.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostedBB6 View Post
The only exception to the above stated is when dealing with used vehicles.

21.(2) Where a motor dealer makes a written representation in the form of a sales or purchase agreement respecting the sale by him of a used motor vehicle, he shall include the particulars required for a new motor vehicle under subsection (1) and
(a) any documentation or transfer fee,
(b) the recorded odometer reading at the time of sale,
(c) the name of any jurisdiction known to the motor dealer other than British Columbia in which the motor vehicle has previously been registered,
(d) an itemized list of any repairs to be effected and the additional cost, if any,
(e) a statement that the motor vehicle complies with the requirements of the Motor Vehicle Act, and
(f) in the case of a motor vehicle not suitable for transportation a statement to that effect.
(2.1) Repealed. [B.C. Reg. 241/2004, Sch. 1.]
(3) A motor dealer shall give a duplicate copy of the sales or purchase agreement to the purchaser or seller, as the case may be, at the time it is accepted by the motor dealer.


When they sell a used vehicle they are required to insure that it meets the Motor Vehicle Act (not Motor Vehicle Safety Act). if your parents purchased the vehicle used they may have a case to present the dealer, if new they have no leg to stand on other than good will from the dealer.
which makes no sense so they can slap on a bunch of illegal cosmetic stuff on the car ie advertisement? and then when the customer gets caught it's their fault coz they don't even know it's illegal?
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:43 AM   #20
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If the OPs parent's car was purchased as used...

Content of sale or purchase agreement (used vehicles)
(2) Where a motor dealer makes a written representation in the form of a sales or purchase agreement respecting the sale by him of a used motor vehicle, he shall include the particulars required for a new motor vehicle under subsection (1) and
(a) any documentation or transfer fee,
(b) the recorded odometer reading at the time of sale,
(c) the name of any jurisdiction known to the motor dealer other than British Columbia in which the motor vehicle has previously been registered,
(d) an itemized list of any repairs to be effected and the additional cost, if any,
(e) a statement that the motor vehicle complies with the requirements of the Motor Vehicle Act, and


This....Canada Safety Standards
223 (1) A manufacturer or distributor of a motor vehicle or trailer manufactured in British Columbia for sale in British Columbia and a dealer must not sell


Does MB have a plant in BC? If a car salesman does what section 222 says, is he not a "person" acting on behalf of the "person" who owns the dealership? I don't believe the law says that a salesman or dealership can take any legally manufactured vehicle, illegally modify it in an area not covered by the MV Safety Act and that's OK? What if they decided to add Goldflinger shredder wheel hubs...they are not covered by the Act?


Definition of the owner..
Responsibility of owner or lessee in certain cases
86 (1) In the case of a motor vehicle that is in the possession of its owner, in an action to recover for loss or damage to persons or property arising out of the use or operation of the motor vehicle on a highway, a person driving or operating the motor vehicle who

(a) is living with, and as a member of the family of, the owner, or
(b) acquired possession of the motor vehicle with the consent, express or implied, of the owner,
is deemed to be the agent or servant of, and employed as such by, that owner and to be driving or operating the motor vehicle in the course of his or her employment with that owner.
Liability of partners
87 Each member of a licensed partnership is liable to the penalties imposed against licensees for breach of this Act.

Liability of licensees for offences of employees
88 (1) The registered owner of a motor vehicle by means of or in respect of which motor vehicle an offence against this Act or the regulations with respect to the equipment or maintenance of the vehicle is committed by his or her employee, servant, agent or worker, or by any person entrusted by him or her with the possession of the motor vehicle, is deemed to be a party to the offence committed, and is personally liable to the penalties prescribed for the offence as a principal offender.

(2) Nothing in this section relieves the person who actually committed the offence from liability for it.
(3) On every prosecution of a registered owner of a motor vehicle for an offence against this Act or regulations that has been committed by means of or in respect of that motor vehicle, the burden of proving that the offence was not committed by the registered owner and that the person committing the offence was not the registered owner's employee, servant, agent or worker, or a person entrusted by the registered owner with the possession of the motor vehicle is on the defendant.

Last edited by zulutango; 10-04-2014 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:04 AM   #21
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which makes no sense so they can slap on a bunch of illegal cosmetic stuff on the car ie advertisement? and then when the customer gets caught it's their fault coz they don't even know it's illegal?
If it is a brand new car (never been registered through ICBC), the simple answer, yes.
If it is a used car, been registered to an individual/business, then no.

Why the law is like this....no idea. There are loads of stupid laws out there, and this would be one of them. Personally I think that the only limitation to a plate is that is is easily visible to an officer/photo radar.
One of the things that you could get nabbed on even if completely visible with a plate frame is the bottom section, on some plate frames, is raised for more room for a name or what not and will cover the insurance tag info.

I have know about this law for years yet I still have plate frames on my car but they in no way obscure the plate from being visible or photos taken of it.

Do you have a pic of the plate on your parents car?
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:21 AM   #22
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I have know about this law for years yet I still have plate frames on my car but they in no way obscure the plate from being visible or photos taken of it.



Gotcha!!!!
"number plates" means the number plates issued under this Act as well as validation decals for attachment to number plates issued under this Act;

If you obstruct the decal you are obstructing the "number plate". Yeh, I know I'm a smartass.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:35 AM   #23
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I have know about this law for years yet I still have plate frames on my car but they in no way obscure the plate from being visible or photos taken of it.



Gotcha!!!!
"number plates" means the number plates issued under this Act as well as validation decals for attachment to number plates issued under this Act;

If you obstruct the decal you are obstructing the "number plate". Yeh, I know I'm a smartass.


Bad


Good
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:40 AM   #24
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You have an Elise!!!!!??? I'm impressed. My buddy has one and I had a short ride on his...once I finally got inside. The thing must have some sort of downward force magnets in it as it never moves on the road.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:41 AM   #25
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This is the most common dealer plate style I see used. It leaves room for there advertising and still leaves all decals and information very visible.
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