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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 10-16-2014, 04:26 PM   #1
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Disputing a driving without due care ticket

Spoilered for being longer than a LOTR novel....
Spoiler!


Coles:

-Owned a car for 2 years with remote start.
-One morning Remote started, accidentally in first gear and it drove slowly down the block and into a bus post.
-Before I could report damage (minimal), police contact me because of witness
-Meet up with officer to eventually charges me with driving without due care
-Was okay with this ($3XX) felt it was deserved
-Found out its 6 points, license possibly suspended, and $600 after DPP
-Can't be without a license due to where I lived, school, work etc.
-Disputed in hopes of not losing license, still okay with fees/points though

extra notes:
I didn't know leaving it in gear would cause this to happen, from experience it never could start in first gear.
Looking for outside perspectives on what I should actually be charged with, I feel I learned my lesson the minute I found out this happened. Losing my license wouldn't further make me learn a lesson. Thought this could maybe be equal to not properly parking and letting my car roll or something.

These coles notes make it seem a lot worse than I thought it was though...and I doubt anybody will read the full thing now haha
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Every time I'm there I usually see Jgresch's name under "Best Lap Times"

Last edited by Jgresch; 10-16-2014 at 09:39 PM. Reason: Added coles
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:06 PM   #2
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For starters, I'm pretty sure by using a remote start you become "in care and control" of the vehicle once you hit that button. Second, just removing the remote doesn't disable the system, you need to remove the fuse or disconnect the remote start wiring. Not so relevant when parking outside, but if the car is ever parked in a garage the remote start needs to be fully disabled on the cars end to prevent a carbon monoxide issue. Third, this is more an an FYI, the remote start won't disable the steering lock, you still need the key for that, so it could only go forward (ish, depends on the wheel orientation), not pull a u turn.

IMO "fleeing an accident" and "driving without due care" aren't really applicable charges, since as you said the accident didn't involve another car, I'd think whatever charges would be applied to a car rolling down a hill or something would be more appropriate, I think you're in violation of MVA 191.2b (turning the wheels on a grade) and maybes 195.1 (vehicle moving on a highway with an obstructed view)? for that.
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:30 PM   #3
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The remote start will continue to apply power to the starter until it hits whatever RPM is that tells the computer the engine is running.
There is no anti grind, or other super natural forces that will keep the car from rolling forward when remote start is initiated with the car in gear.. This is why most installers, legally, will not install remote start on a manual car. Autotragic cars obviously do not have this problem. What you could do is put the car in second or third gear instead of first and that should stall the car upon start up keep the car from lurching too far forward.

As for the ticket itself, I feel for you. First off, as I always tell people, phone the office and as for full disclosure. With his notes from that day, you can then see how strong of a case he has with this charge. As underscore said, by setting off the remote start and allowing the car to roll away, it is understandable that the officer felt driving without due care is the appropriate offense.

Officers are humans and they too can respond negatively in emotional situations.
Perhaps you can speak to him before going to court to see if he can change the charge or withdraw the ticket. Basically tell him what you told us today. You learned your lesson. You are truely remorseful and you need your license. You can even go as far as to show him your car and how you had the remote start disabled so that there is no chance of a repeat for this.

Last thing you can do is go to court, and tell the JP that you admit to the offense but ask to waive the 6 pts or have a reduced fine.
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:30 PM   #4
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nobody gonna read all that brah
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:38 PM   #5
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Thanks for reading and the responses, will respond directly when I'm not on my phone.
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:05 PM   #6
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This incident is not much different than ghost riding incidents. Those guys get charged with the driving without due care as well.

Someone started the car and someone put the car into gear. It doesn't matter which order these steps occurred, there was still an accident.

Driving without due care covers a lot of different situations, but it applies to them all. The "driver" was unable to control their vehicle in a safe manner, whether it be falling asleep at the wheel, ghostriding or autostarting your car in gear.

Not sure what you are trying to dispute here, you started the car that you left in gear. That essentially makes you the driver.
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:23 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by underscore View Post
For starters, I'm pretty sure by using a remote start you become "in care and control" of the vehicle once you hit that button. Second, just removing the remote doesn't disable the system, you need to remove the fuse or disconnect the remote start wiring. Not so relevant when parking outside, but if the car is ever parked in a garage the remote start needs to be fully disabled on the cars end to prevent a carbon monoxide issue. Third, this is more an an FYI, the remote start won't disable the steering lock, you still need the key for that, so it could only go forward (ish, depends on the wheel orientation), not pull a u turn.

IMO "fleeing an accident" and "driving without due care" aren't really applicable charges, since as you said the accident didn't involve another car, I'd think whatever charges would be applied to a car rolling down a hill or something would be more appropriate, I think you're in violation of MVA 191.2b (turning the wheels on a grade) and maybes 195.1 (vehicle moving on a highway with an obstructed view)? for that.
^ That's what I was also thinking (not sure if I wrote it in my post anywhere), but possibly a charge of not securing my vehicle properly to allow it to roll. I pm'd one of the officer members a while back about this and that is also what he said he might have issued me.

After reading your first part about disabling the remote start, I'm not too sure what you mean. I just meant I stopped carrying or using the remote FOB so I wouldn't be able to remote start the car again and run into the same issue. Would carbon monoxide be a problem somehow if the system was still hooked up but never in use?
Third part - didn't know about the steering lock as I never tried, thanks.

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The remote start will continue to apply power to the starter until it hits whatever RPM is that tells the computer the engine is running.
There is no anti grind, or other super natural forces that will keep the car from rolling forward when remote start is initiated with the car in gear.. This is why most installers, legally, will not install remote start on a manual car. Autotragic cars obviously do not have this problem. What you could do is put the car in second or third gear instead of first and that should stall the car upon start up keep the car from lurching too far forward.

As for the ticket itself, I feel for you. First off, as I always tell people, phone the office and as for full disclosure. With his notes from that day, you can then see how strong of a case he has with this charge. As underscore said, by setting off the remote start and allowing the car to roll away, it is understandable that the officer felt driving without due care is the appropriate offense.

Officers are humans and they too can respond negatively in emotional situations.
Perhaps you can speak to him before going to court to see if he can change the charge or withdraw the ticket. Basically tell him what you told us today. You learned your lesson. You are truely remorseful and you need your license. You can even go as far as to show him your car and how you had the remote start disabled so that there is no chance of a repeat for this.

Last thing you can do is go to court, and tell the JP that you admit to the offense but ask to waive the 6 pts or have a reduced fine.
Thank you for the info at the beginning on how the starter works. I honestly did not know, I only assumed when I was shopping for them a while ago that the Anti-Grind was some sort of feature to stop the car from starting if it was in gear. I guess the many times were I attempted to start it but left it in gear, it just must have stalled.

I will contact him for disclosure to see everything he has. I really need to do more research on all of this first, I just wanted to post up to get feedback. I'd love to talk with him and ask for a different fine, or just something that won't jeopardize losing my license. Am I able to even do that? I know I can talk to him and try to settle right before seeing the judge. Will look into this.

Can't show him I've disabled the car because I don't own it any longer. Again, thanks for the post

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This incident is not much different than ghost riding incidents. Those guys get charged with the driving without due care as well.

Someone started the car and someone put the car into gear. It doesn't matter which order these steps occurred, there was still an accident.

Driving without due care covers a lot of different situations, but it applies to them all. The "driver" was unable to control their vehicle in a safe manner, whether it be falling asleep at the wheel, ghostriding or autostarting your car in gear.

Not sure what you are trying to dispute here, you started the car that you left in gear. That essentially makes you the driver.
Wow, that's actually a pretty good analogy and I didn't think of it that way until you mentioned it. And as mentioned multiple times in my post I was looking for other perspectives on this because it's easy to see from my own POV. I disputed it because at the time I weighed my options and knew I couldn't be without my license if it came down to that. Not trying to run away or get off the hook, but I want to make sure it's the right charge. It worst came to worst, I would be okay with the 6 points, $600-$650 in fines, it's just the chance of losing my license would take it to a whole other level to me and in my opinion I didn't feel what I did and my driving record would warrant that.

Thanks all for reading/contributing, I know that original post is massive.
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:29 PM   #8
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^ just to add to that last post though... As far as comparing it to ghost riding a car, people who were doing that had full knowledge of what they were doing. To the best of my knowledge I had no idea that this would ever happen, had I known I obviously would not have been using it in the first place. But then part of me says just because I don't know something doesn't mean I'm not responsible for when something bad happens.

I guess also what I'm getting as is, it's not going to take anything more for me to learn a lesson here, other than finding out this happened in the first place. Even if the police officer never gave me a ticket for this in the first place, and I found out that my car did this, I would take the necessary steps to make sure it never happens again. Hell it could have been so much worse if it had actually hit somebody instead of something.
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:51 PM   #9
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^ just to add to that last post though... As far as comparing it to ghost riding a car, people who were doing that had full knowledge of what they were doing. To the best of my knowledge I had no idea that this would ever happen
That's where I'm sitting a too thinking about your case.

CBA lawyer Referral Service may be a reasonable option, especially if there is a risk of the OSMV reviewing your license.
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:58 PM   #10
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That's where I'm sitting a too thinking about your case.

CBA lawyer Referral Service may be a reasonable option, especially if there is a risk of the OSMV reviewing your license.
Thank you, will give them a call, I had no idea something like that even existed.
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:17 PM   #11
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Any coles notes?
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Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.


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Old 10-16-2014, 09:38 PM   #12
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Sorry, meant to add them when I got home...

-Owned a car for 2 years with remote start.
-One morning Remote started, accidentally in first gear and it drove slowly down the block and into a bus post.
-Before I could report damage (minimal), police contact me because of witness
-Meet up with officer to eventually charges me with driving without due care
-Was okay with this ($3XX) felt it was deserved
-Found out its 6 points, license possibly suspended, and $600 after DPP
-Can't be without a license due to where I lived, school, work etc.
-Disputed in hopes of not losing license, still okay with fees/points though

extra notes:
I didn't know leaving it in gear would cause this to happen, from experience it never could start in first gear.
Looking for outside perspectives on what I should actually be charged with, I feel I learned my lesson the minute I found out this happened. Losing my license wouldn't further make me learn a lesson. Thought this could maybe be equal to not properly parking and letting my car roll or something.

These coles notes make it seem a lot worse than I thought it was though...
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:59 PM   #13
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Does 6 points put your license into review?

I'll be honest I don't feel for you at all about the money, I got one excessive speed ticket (which is worth 3 pts), and because its excessive speed you end up on the DRP automatically (it takes 4 pts otherwise to end up on the DRP) which means that for the following three years I get the distinct pleasure of paying $320 each year.

Your situation is simillar you can expect to pay that $300 for the next three years. So its not just once you have to pay that fine around your birthday. ICBC is gonna nail you for it 2 more times still...lol

In regards to your actual situation I do feel for you. It's pretty shitty. I have no recommendations, but best of luck dealing with it. I hope someone else has something you might be able to use...
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgresch View Post
After reading your first part about disabling the remote start, I'm not too sure what you mean. I just meant I stopped carrying or using the remote FOB so I wouldn't be able to remote start the car again and run into the same issue. Would carbon monoxide be a problem somehow if the system was still hooked up but never in use?
As long as the remote start module is installed in the car it can cause the car to start, either by malfunctioning on its own or by accidentally receiving a signal from something else causing it to start (not overly likely but still possible) so it's generally not a good idea to park a car with any kind of remote start system inside.

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Thank you for the info at the beginning on how the starter works. I honestly did not know, I only assumed when I was shopping for them a while ago that the Anti-Grind was some sort of feature to stop the car from starting if it was in gear. I guess the many times were I attempted to start it but left it in gear, it just must have stalled.
Anti-grind is a feature to stop you from engaging the starter using the key when the remote start has already started the car, since you will "grind" and damage the starter by doing so. AFAIK some starters do have a feature to kill the engine if it detects the car might be in gear but I don't know how that works or how reliable it would be.

Is there any chance you know what brand/model the starter was? If it had features to help prevent a manual car from starting in gear that might help you.
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OH thank god. I thought u had sex with my wife. :cry:
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:42 PM   #15
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Does 6 points put your license into review?

I'll be honest I don't feel for you at all about the money, I got one excessive speed ticket (which is worth 3 pts), and because its excessive speed you end up on the DRP automatically (it takes 4 pts otherwise to end up on the DRP) which means that for the following three years I get the distinct pleasure of paying $320 each year.

Your situation is simillar you can expect to pay that $300 for the next three years. So its not just once you have to pay that fine around your birthday. ICBC is gonna nail you for it 2 more times still...lol

In regards to your actual situation I do feel for you. It's pretty shitty. I have no recommendations, but best of luck dealing with it. I hope someone else has something you might be able to use...
You actually scared me for a second, but the DRP is different from DPP which mine would fall under and it's only a one time fee.


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As long as the remote start module is installed in the car it can cause the car to start, either by malfunctioning on its own or by accidentally receiving a signal from something else causing it to start (not overly likely but still possible) so it's generally not a good idea to park a car with any kind of remote start system inside.



Anti-grind is a feature to stop you from engaging the starter using the key when the remote start has already started the car, since you will "grind" and damage the starter by doing so. AFAIK some starters do have a feature to kill the engine if it detects the car might be in gear but I don't know how that works or how reliable it would be.

Is there any chance you know what brand/model the starter was? If it had features to help prevent a manual car from starting in gear that might help you.
Right right, so if a garage door opener or something with a similar frequency is pressed nearby it could start. Makes sense and good to know. Car was never inside though, unless the rare occasion I was in an underground.

Your explanation of the anti-grind makes sense now. I'll have to try and figure out if I have the model written down somewhere, I think I looked it up a while back, one of the most basic 1 way models, kind of old though.
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Old 10-16-2014, 11:31 PM   #16
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You actually scared me for a second, but the DRP is different from DPP which mine would fall under and it's only a one time fee.
Son of a birch (soundman reference anyone???). Well then consider yourself lucky in that regard.

I did just think of something, if your license only goes under review after 6 points, then you also have the opportunity to plead your case to the person who reviews those cases. So even if you lose the court case, you still have an opportunity to save your license.

Just make sure you don't get another ticket.

(i'm sure you know this already though...)
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Old 10-17-2014, 05:45 AM   #17
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To me, this seems to better fit your circumstances. I don't know how crown could prove you were driving a parked, unoccupied vehicle? It is the section I have used to charge drivers who didn't apply their park brakes and put into park, or left the car running while they went into a store etc.

Leaving parked vehicle
191 (1) A motor vehicle must be equipped with a lock or other device to prevent the unauthorized use of the motor vehicle.

(2) A driver must not permit a motor vehicle to stand unattended or parked unless the driver has
(a)[/B] locked it or made it secure in a manner that prevents its unauthorized use, and
(b) if the motor vehicle is standing on a grade, turned the front wheels of the vehicle to the curb or side of the highway.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:40 PM   #18
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To me, this seems to better fit your circumstances. I don't know how crown could prove you were driving a parked, unoccupied vehicle? It is the section I have used to charge drivers who didn't apply their park brakes and put into park, or left the car running while they went into a store etc.

Leaving parked vehicle
191 (1) A motor vehicle must be equipped with a lock or other device to prevent the unauthorized use of the motor vehicle.

(2) A driver must not permit a motor vehicle to stand unattended or parked unless the driver has
(a)[/B] locked it or made it secure in a manner that prevents its unauthorized use, and
(b) if the motor vehicle is standing on a grade, turned the front wheels of the vehicle to the curb or side of the highway.
Could someone argue this wasn't a case of unauthorized use. ie. the car wasn't left in a manner that allowed someone else to jump in and drive away. While there was a mechanical failure that caused the car to roll away the car was still locked and secured I assume.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:47 PM   #19
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I wouldn't worry about license being suspended. While getting a six point offence does put your license under review, it's unlikely the government would take the action of suspending you based on a single conviction with a clean record prior to.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:52 PM   #20
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Crown could argue that the car was not locked in a secure manner that would have prevented it's unauthorized use...the fact that someone didn't actually do that is not required. A running car left with the doors unlocked is "unsecured...." etc. It doesn't require someone to steal it to prove the case.
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Old 10-17-2014, 02:14 PM   #21
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Gotcha. But what if his car was locked (but still running).
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:32 PM   #22
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This is one reason why autostart should not be installed on a vehicle with a manual transmission.. Normally with autostart the vehicle remains locked and if any one touches the break it will shut off automatically to prevent it from being stolen.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:57 PM   #23
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[I]locked it or made it secure in a manner that prevents its unauthorized use


I guess he had not made it secure if it rolled away in gear...OR...is the critical word then.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:32 PM   #24
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Wouldn't that depend on what the definition of "unauthorized use" is? Is a car rolling away on its own because of mechanical failure considered to be "unauthorized use"? I wouldn't think so. Unauthorized use sounds more like leaving your car unsecured in such a manner that someone else could take it.

On the other hand, I wonder if a judge would conclude the fact someone left a car running and unattended is enough evidence to support 191(2)a, then every single person who uses a remote start (which keep in mind is a factory-installed option on many cars) could be charged with that. And that would be ridiculous.
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:28 PM   #25
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OR...in a manner..I would think having an unoccupied vehicle moving with no one controlling it could hardly be considered being operated in an authorized manner. IF the car was locked or secure in a manner that prevents unauthorized use the car would not have moved under it's own unoccupied power. These would be points I would raise if I had issued the VT for a runaway car. Cars that are properly locked or secured do not drive off on their own.
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