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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

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Old 11-21-2014, 05:06 PM   #26
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How is that fair? are you talking gross or net? and are cities going to take 35% responsibility if something happens?
The cities don't have to take and risk if there is no pipeline. And who will cover the cost of the clean up. I am sure the city will have to pay for it maybe not the whole clean up but the city will have to pay for it. Look at all the oil spills accidents in the last 10 years. The city pays for the damage one way or another (they have to spend tax dollars to help clean up or there are huge environmental issue after the accidents which the city have to put with for the next decade). Why shouldn't we take as much as we can now and use it help pay for the clean up?
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Old 11-21-2014, 05:09 PM   #27
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I'm pro as well

Either way it's gonna end up being twinned
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Old 11-21-2014, 05:33 PM   #28
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Still so what you are just trying to say is well since we are safe and create jobs therefore we aren't paying you guys a penny.

Sure maybe you guys are safest but there is a chance of an accident and when accidents occur who pays for the full cost of the clean up and all the environment clean up cost? I am sure hell know not any company in the world will cover the cost of clean up 100%. They can't because the environment damage is on going and that's when the city is hook for the bill. A bill that us tax payers are on the hook for. So why shouldn't the city take a cut from it because the risk is on their end.
Give one example where any Pipeline in Canada ruptured and the owner didn't cover all costs of the clean up?

Last I checked the 15M clean up in Burnaby was taken care of by Kinder Morgan... Though it probably should have been paid for by the contractor or the City of Burnabu since they ultimately caused the rupture...

Kinder Morgan ordered to pay $150,000 in Burnaby oil spill - News - Burnaby Now


Edit: Just saw your last post,... Do you know the difference between facts and opinions?
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Old 11-21-2014, 07:01 PM   #29
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I don't understand the reasoning for Kinder Morgan paying for the clean up. In what way were they negligent?
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Old 11-21-2014, 07:13 PM   #30
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I don't understand the reasoning for Kinder Morgan paying for the clean up. In what way were they negligent?
They pay because it's a figurative drop in the bucket. And it prevents the idiots that don't know shit from screaming foul.

I'm in the industry so I'm biased. But I'm pro pipeline. As stated earlier by others, it's gonna flow anyway, pipeline in the log run is likely a safer method.

Also anything about clean up costs and shit for land pipelines are completely ridiculous. Clean up costs are 100% covered by the responsible party. Believe me the government and their various facilities don't leave that shit to chance.

I'm on my phone but I can provide countless examples of companies covering environmental cleanup costs.
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Old 11-21-2014, 07:17 PM   #31
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I don't understand the reasoning for Kinder Morgan paying for the clean up. In what way were they negligent?
Two reasons

- NEB OPR-99: "32. (1) A company shall develop, implement and maintain an emergency management program that anticipates, prevents, manages and mitigates conditions during an emergency that could adversely affect property, the environment or the safety of workers or the public."

Ultimately the NEB holds the "company" aka the pipeline owner responsible for clean up. This however does not mean Kinder Morgan loses the right to sue the City of Burnaby or the contractor for damages.

- Imagine the damage to relationships with local landowners and the impact on sentiment if they refused to clean up the spill :s
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:02 PM   #32
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Give one example where any Pipeline in Canada ruptured and the owner didn't cover all costs of the clean up?

Last I checked the 15M clean up in Burnaby was taken care of by Kinder Morgan... Though it probably should have been paid for by the contractor or the City of Burnabu since they ultimately caused the rupture...

Kinder Morgan ordered to pay $150,000 in Burnaby oil spill - News - Burnaby Now


Edit: Just saw your last post,... Do you know the difference between facts and opinions?
So they pay for the clean up. What about environment effect, or lost of animal lives or their homes being forever polluted now? How do you measure environment lost? You can't.
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Old 11-21-2014, 11:04 PM   #33
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So they pay for the clean up. What about environment effect, or lost of animal lives or their homes being forever polluted now? How do you measure environment lost? You can't.
You don't seem to understand the meaning of the term "clean up". It doesn't mean "pressure wash the cars and plants and call it a day". 15M in clean up costs means hauling away every last inch of contaminated soil to a processing facility.

If there was lingering environmental effects from the Burnaby spill it would be all over the news... I don't know what's worse, that you say these things or that people actually thank your post lol
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:55 AM   #34
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Still so what you are just trying to say is well since we are safe and create jobs therefore we aren't paying you guys a penny.

Sure maybe you guys are safest but there is a chance of an accident and when accidents occur who pays for the full cost of the clean up and all the environment clean up cost? I am sure hell know not any company in the world will cover the cost of clean up 100%. They can't because the environment damage is on going and that's when the city is hook for the bill. A bill that us tax payers are on the hook for. So why shouldn't the city take a cut from it because the risk is on their end.

Ever heard of insurance?

Pipeline companies required to have $1B cleanup funds - Politics - CBC News
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Old 11-22-2014, 06:33 AM   #35
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Mr Hapyslip is somewhat right. You can't fully measure environment lose to that extent and we certainly won't be able to "clean up" right away. It could take decades and by then it might have an affect on nearby plantlife and habitats depending on the extent of the spill/leak. It boils down to QC when it happens. This is a risk pipelines are taking that's for sure. So they make sure they have the controls in place to avoid or prevent from happening. You cannot 100% clean up a big loss of containment. This one the biggest con of the pipelines but is it worth the benefits we get from it? I think so.

There are too many assumptions being made in this thread
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:09 AM   #36
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Good thing people don't ruin the environment, all 7 billion of them.




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Old 11-22-2014, 12:37 PM   #37
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Burnaby Residents Opposing Kinder Morgan Expansion: Be careful where you park because parking in no parking areas or in bike lanes will result in being towed and ticketed on Burnaby Mountain.



IMO. The most economical and perhaps safer route for that oil. Build refineries. Keep the oil in Canada, keep jobs in Canada.
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Old 11-22-2014, 01:56 PM   #38
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Canada doesnt need all the oil it produces.
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Old 11-22-2014, 02:29 PM   #39
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So they pay for the clean up. What about environment effect, or lost of animal lives or their homes being forever polluted now? How do you measure environment lost? You can't.
What about all the animals that lost there home when the place you live in was build? You understand the lower mainland was once all tree's and bushes with animals living in them right? Building a house on a piece of forested land is a lot worse then running a pipe underneath it.
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:18 PM   #40
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Canada doesnt need all the oil it produces.
No but we sell it for a better economy
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:43 PM   #41
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my work had a meeting with kinder morgan a few weeks ago regarding safety while digging.

(city workers)

from the KM guy giving his speech:

KM produces 300,000 tanker trucks worth of oil a day
enough underground pipelines to wrap the earth several times

anyways, if anyone lives near an underground fuel line in burnaby (delta ave for example). every year the houses are given mail stating that even though the homeowner may own his property, they're not allowed to plant a garden if they're within 30m of the pipe line. if they do want to plant something simple as a garden, they need to have an inspector come out to supervise if they're within a closer vicinity that 30m. must suck knowing that you cant even do simple things on your own property. also, ground disturbances...for example, my work, we can not stick a shovel into the ground until we've contacted KM and have been given a no conflict response or have a KM supervisor on site to nanny us. it may not seem like a big deal, but when a watermain breaks at 3am, my dept crews can show up quite fast. but if we're within 30 meters, we are not allowed to shut the watermain down...we simply have to let the houses flood. several weeks ago there was a watermain break under a curb...cars park beside cars, and 1 car decided to flip over onto its side from all the undermined dirt underneath it. it only took minutes to destroy the street/flood houses with water up to 3-4 ft deep in their basements/and destroy a car before we could shut it down. imagine waiting possibly up to an hour before they can gt a supervisor to nanny us. lets hope that your house isn't near the pipeline hahaha
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:18 PM   #42
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Got a kick out of a news bit yesterday saying a lot of the protesters had left because of the cold and rain and mud... and left a huge lawn area turned into a massive mud bog. I guess it's okay to trample all over nature if your heart's in the right place?
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:59 PM   #43
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Got a kick out of a news bit yesterday saying a lot of the protesters had left because of the cold and rain and mud... and left a huge lawn area turned into a massive mud bog. I guess it's okay to trample all over nature if your heart's in the right place?
Most of those people have little to no knowledge of what they are even defending against. They are just band wagoners on this hip environmental movement to ban pipelines. They do a thousand things every day which if they collectively stopped would set back environmental degradation back 10 years. Instead they march against statistically some of the most environmentally friendly companies on this planet (seriously go look it up, many companies which are in oil&gas or environmentally sensitive fields of work, are usually industry leaders in other areas, things like paperless efforts, and helping to control power usage by employees etc). Sure many do dirty work, but they do what they can to limit their damage, and they tend to do it a lot better than other companies.

While were at it go look at a few maps, and you will realize how many pipelines are currently operating throughout the entire world. This isn't some new phenomenon which is decimating the worlds environment. This is established fucking technology which is universally understood as one of the quickest, and easily containable ways of transferring product from one place to another, everything from bitumen, to water, to sewage, even hydrogen.

As stewie said above, 300 000 tanker trucks a day (JUST FROM KM). Sure you don't want a pipeline? Fine we will send it all by truck, and that will be way more environmentally friendly than a pipeline. Meanwhile feel free to stop complaining about the cost of gas when you are filling up your SUV's, because our cost to market just doubled without that pipeline...

Just for shits and giggles this is the global map for energy transmissions pipelines (which account for only a certain percentage of total pipelines)



Here is NA:

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Old 11-22-2014, 09:59 PM   #44
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Most of those people have little to no knowledge of what they are even defending against. They are just band wagoners on this hip environmental movement to ban pipelines. They do a thousand things every day which if they collectively stopped would set back environmental degradation back 10 years.
I can only Thank this post once, so I'll quote it for added emphasis.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:56 AM   #45
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Mr Hapyslip is somewhat right. You can't fully measure environment lose to that extent and we certainly won't be able to "clean up" right away. It could take decades and by then it might have an affect on nearby plantlife and habitats depending on the extent of the spill/leak. It boils down to QC when it happens. This is a risk pipelines are taking that's for sure. So they make sure they have the controls in place to avoid or prevent from happening. You cannot 100% clean up a big loss of containment. This one the biggest con of the pipelines but is it worth the benefits we get from it? I think so.

There are too many assumptions being made in this thread
This goes right back to my first post in this thread: the oil WILL flow, whether you like it or not, so it can either flow through a pipeline or it can flow in rail cars and behind trucks that are much more likely to have accidents and spills. As far as clean ups go, I've yet to hear of any that have taken "decades" to do, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

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must suck knowing that you cant even do simple things on your own property.
The people living near those lines knew they were there when they bought their house, their house might be worth less but they also would have paid less for it.
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:43 AM   #46
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All I can say looking at that map, it's a fucking good thing Northern Gateway won't be going through - that saved the whole damn planet right there.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:06 AM   #47
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Okay, so they're showing video on the news this morning of some arrests yesterday... some stunned bitch in the crowd is looking horrified that "they're arresting grandmothers!" as some grey-haired lady is being stuffed in the paddy wagon... well fuck, the cops were face to face with people telling them, "cross the tape, go to jail", and then they ducked the tape while looking the cop in the face. What the fuck did you expect? "Oh okay, I told you not to do it, I told you what would happen, you looked me in the eye, and you did it anyway... but it's okay, you're a grandma, so I'll let you off... AGAIN."



I loved the moron the other day who bike-locked herself to a concrete block, too. "This is unceded native land!" Guess what, dipshit, about 130% of BC is unceded native land. That means the Yaletown condo you call home is built on unceded native land. You ready to give that back?
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:02 AM   #48
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IMO. The most economical and perhaps safer route for that oil. Build refineries. Keep the oil in Canada, keep jobs in Canada.
+1

would love it if we not only refined and sold our oil but if we also gave citizens the oil @ cost :/ likewise with electricity and natural gas considering we're overflowing in it so much and exporting like crazy :/ i know that'll never happen but would still love it :/
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:52 AM   #49
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I've seen a "protester" that bike-locked themselves to a gate post have the lock removed by the fire department with a grinder… while the protester sobs hysterically while selfie-ing the whole ordeal.

I've also seen "protesters" set up camp at a worksite, proceed to shit and piss all over the site while the RCMP get their wheels spinning, and then we have to get a Hazmat crew in to clean up the mess they leave.

Note that when I used the word protester, I do not mean people who are genuinely interested in saving the world etc… I mean people that we know for a fact at bring paid to protest, the RCMP also now this, these people are compensated by foreign interest groups and literally get paid extra for every single news crew that shows up, every time they get arrested, every hour they spend with a bike lock around their neck etc.

Anti-pipeline protesters and their multi-million dollar enablers | Financial Post

We had one situation where a "protester" jumped a fence, ran over to a valve and pressed a big red button to shut the valve in… totally oblivious to the potential consequences of doing so.. what if suddenly shutting that valve in caused a rupture? (If you know fluid dynamics you will understand why)

Again, most people are fairly reasonable with their concerns, but reasonable doesn't make for a good news hour… so you don't hear from these people too often.

Side note - Chevron plant in Burnaby was commissioned in 1935, long before there were any residential neighbourhoods nearby. Every person that lives in the refinery area and bitches about the refinery had the choice to move there knowing full well the refinery existed.
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:05 PM   #50
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Side note - Chevron plant in Burnaby was commissioned in 1935, long before there were any residential neighbourhoods nearby. Every person that lives in the refinery area and bitches about the refinery had the choice to move there knowing full well the refinery existed.
I'm always amazed at the number of people who act shocked when I tell them this facility exists. I frequent Cates park, and every time I tell someone about what that tank farm is, they get all worried about the waterfront, and the environment. Then when you explain how long that facility has been there they seem to understand that their fear was irrational.

I remember a few years ago, I had some friends at SFU who lived nearby the site, and there was letters being dropped in their mailbox regarding protesting against the refinery regarding sulfur particles being deposited in the area. Chevron had to release a press release explaining to people how pollination works, and the pollen deposited on people's vehicles was not sulfur, and it had nothing to do with the refinery.

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The people living near those lines knew they were there when they bought their house, their house might be worth less but they also would have paid less for it.
This^. Those people have those responsibilities because the land they bought already had a legal Right of Way established on it, long before many of them were even born. Next I am going to hear about people complaining about how they have to call BCOneCall before they dig on their property... "Yeah fuck the government, how dare they run necessary civil services under my property!"
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