Are all modern non-sports cars mediocre to drive? Family vehicle edition

[Tapioca]

I've begun to casually look for another vehicle to accommodate a growing family.

To be fair, the most modern vehicle I've driven on a regular basis is a first-gen Mazda 3 which is our current daily driver. However, as some of you know, such a small car isn't going to cut it for family-related duties, such as carrying two rear-facing car seats. Before my days as a father, I owned such cars as a 2nd generation Integra and a few BMWs such as an E30, E46, and E39.

I sold my unicorn E39 with much regret (528 with a manual), but I'm looking for something that is engaging to drive but can handle family duties - something with fold-down seats, with car seat anchors, etc. So far, I've narrowed my search to the Mazda 5 and both generations of the Golf Wagon because both cars are rare in that a manual transmission is still an option. I want to avoid CUV/SUVs as much as possible since I personally believe they offer nothing more than what a capable wagon offers (aside from a raised driving position).

I drove 3 Golf Wagons today - 2 Mark VIs and a Mark VII (with manual transmission examples from each generation). Despite all of the rave reviews from auto writers, bloggers, and YouTubers, I was somewhat disappointed with both. With the Mark VI, I expected a much more direct feel in the steering wheel (since they still use a hydraulic pump), but both examples I drove, the steering had an unsettling dead feel on-centre and was too light in the city. The Mark VII actually had a more assertive steering feel, despite being completely electric. The clutches on both cars were almost too light, but the gearboxes were pretty direct compared to my old Getrag units in the BMWs I used to own.

I test drove a current generation Mazda 5 the other day. Since the car is based on the previous generation Mazda 3 platform, I expected very few differences in steering feel and responsiveness between our current car and the 5. However, I was disappointed in the steering feel (again, it was far too light, even compared to our 3) and the brakes were pretty mediocre too (to be fair, they're probably using the same set up from the 3 on the 5). Mind you, auto journalists have given the 5 very positive reviews.

I've driven a few other modern cars over the last couple of years (rentals when I'm on the job or on vacation). I drove a V6 Mustang while on vacation last year for a week and despite putting the car in its most sport-oriented driving mode, the steering still felt artificial and detached from the road. I've driven cars with CVTs (terrible, terrible transmissions) and even a Prius for a few days. In fact, I haven't been really impressed with any modern car despite modern cars having more horses and more efficient transmissions than anything I've owned or driven in the past. I haven't driven any cars the ZF 8-speed automatic (which is supposedly one of the best automatics available in a mainstream car), but basically any other automatic I've driven still has the issues that made me a convert to manuals - gear hunting, slow downshifts, etc.

What has happened to the modern automobile? I suppose removing connection to the road and steering feel has been demanded by the marketplace, but if I'm going to be spending significant chunks of my time in a box with four wheels, I want that time to be at least interesting.

[tiger_handheld]

driving is no longer an experience... its a chore. Modern auto is about self driving cars, so the humans can be more efficient. If you want to drive - buy a classic.

[kkttsang]

That's why van for wife, fun sport car for dad.
Lol.
We have a suv for the wife and baby, I'm also looking to trade in my e90 for mk7 gti or '15 wrx.

I know where your coming from. Even the new BMW f/3-Series aren't as fun to drive as the e 3 series. Partly to blame electronic steering.

I wanted a sporty fun to drive family sedan too around 35k, but gave up on that and decided to just get something sporty for me and something my kid can drive as a old beater but still cool, like wrx and gti.

[Lomac]

The Mazda6 is a pretty sporty family car, and it comes with a 6-speed stick. Yeah, it's got a slightly anemic engine but it can definitely handle the curves without an issue.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Lomac

The Mazda6 is a pretty sporty family car, and it comes with a 6-speed stick. Yeah, it's got a slightly anemic engine but it can definitely handle the curves without an issue.

I considered that, but when you have babies, modern sedans are not the greatest for getting them in and out of seats. Sloping doors make it challenging to get babies into rear-facing car seats.

I get why SUV/CUVs have so popular for families - their dimensions make it easier to get young kids in and out. But, they're anemic to drive, heavy, and have negligible or less room in the hatch than a wagon.

[dared3vil0]

Hmm... 328 Touring?

[Jmac]

There was a mint E91 328xi touring wagon w/ 6 spd posted on the CL GB thread a few months ago. Would definitely rock one of those.

Also, that 6 spd Cadillac CTS-V wagon from AB w/ 500+ hp

Edit: Found the 328xit, Cadillac appears to be gone.

http://www.usedvictoria.com/classifi...W-KMS_26480725

[asian_XL]

I need a 7 seater for family, wife, babies, moving furniture, going electric is what I eventually want, too bad the Model X can't do the moving furniture part.

For a family guy's garage...a very reliable people carrier, then a totally impractical car will be perfect.

[GS8]

I can't help you with your vehicle choice.

All I can say is that new cars suck to me. The newest car I owned was a MY 2009 and I felt that was the newest I'd go. Now I drive a MY 97 car and it's great. Is it as refined? No but that's what makes it more engaging. I like moving parts, not electronic data.

The idea of owning a new(er) car past its warranty, regardless of brand, makes me cringe.

Mini rant: There's no replacement for a skilled driver. Fuck all these safety nanny gimmick bullshit sensors that are just more potential things that can go wrong. It's just more planned obsolescence fodder that the dealers can use to rape you when that shit breaks down. Same goes for those complicated nav / media units.

Just get a smartphone. Cheaper to replace yet can handle all your media and navigation needs

Yes I speak from someone who's been driving for decades and the idea of a new kid learning to drive in a 1975 Oldsmobile 98 makes me super hard. Sign of the times though.

Hopefully by the time sentient cars become the norm, I'll be too feeble or too dead to partake.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by dared3vil0

Hmm... 328 Touring?

I've considered the E90 touring, or even an E60 touring, but as a former BMW enthusiast myself, there's the dark side of BMW ownership - wrenching. It's not that I'm not decent with a set of hand tools, but time is money and time is definitely in short supply with a young family. I'm sick of breaking plastic parts. Not only that, but with the way the CAD is these days, parts suppliers in the USA are no longer a viable alternative. IMHO, the E46/E39 generation was the last generation of BMWs that was built with service accessibility in mind.

I was pretty underwhelmed with the VWs. I was expecting all of the things I liked about my past BMWs in a modern shape with the VWs. The suspensions on the Golfs were competent, but something was lacking.

[Mr.C]

Get an e39 540i/6 Touring?

[ilvtofu]

IMO there are a lot of good driving cars these days, sometimes in places you'd least expect. If you can't find it you're probably just jaded about cars feeling different than what you're used to. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist but I'm almost always able to find something I like a lot in the way a car drives. Auto journalists tend to base their driving impressions relative to the segment, so when they say a Mazda 5 drives nicely, that doesn't mean it holds a candle to the ND Miata. I think you may be setting yourself up for failure if you're looking at full length wagons but not crossovers or hatchbacks, there just aren't that many choices in North America and the ones that we do have weren't necessarily meant to be driver's' cars.

The Mk7 GTI feels very different compared to the regular golf steering wise, but the GTI is undertired from the factory for my liking. There's more power/chassis than what those OE tires can put down which results in noticeable understeer. Obviously not available in the wagon variant in Canada but the back seat is roomier than your 1st gen Mazda 3, keep in mind vehicles in the same segment just keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes by.
Lightly used Focus ST's can be had for a really good price nowadays and may offer the on-center steering feel/excitement you're looking for, trunk is decently long and might be good enough for the baby hauling. Not something I'd take to the track in stock trim but for a street car it's very fun.

CX5 felt pretty good to me. Trunk seemed a bit narrow but I didn't feel like it was underpowered and the steering feels great. My standards for power might be a lot lower than yours though. Contrary to your belief I think this drives a lot nicer than lower wagons like the Golf, Mazda 5, Prius V, etc. There's just much more competition in this segment which gives them a reason to make this car drive well.

Acura continues to impress me with how well some of their cars drive, I took out a FWD 2.4 TLX 8-speed dual clutch press car last year and the handling was phenomenal. That transmission beats out the ZF in terms of smoothness and really wakes up the old K-series engine, drives a lot better than the old auto TSX with that engine IMO. If your budget can make it work, the current gen RDX, while not a looker is a great driving car.

[thebrownboy]

Used C63. Can get a 2010 or so around 40,000ish. Very fun and engaging car once you turn off the ESP. Be careful though, she's very tail happy once the driver assists are all off

[hi-revs]

Get yourself the new wrx

[TOS'd]

Read thread title, came in here thinking it was Timpo's thread.

[snowball]

CX5 has pretty stiff suspension and heavy steering for a CUV

If autos okay it comes with a 6 speed auto instead of a CVT though power might be lacking (on par with others in segment though)

[dark0821]

First, I want to say congratz on the kids! And yes you will still have mod money after....

I was in your exact position about 2 years ago. while my wife was 7 month into her pregnancy, under heavy parents influence from both sides of the family, we pulled the trigger on a Nissan Rogue. Though roomy, it was underpowered and CVT, Everyday I would drive it, and think to myself, how and why am I spending gas money on a car that has worse mileage than my 240.

4 month into the whole baby thing, I gave the rogue to my parents, My complaint to them was, my wife cant lift the car seat high enough.

At that point I was looking for a Mazda Speed 3, one trip to the dealership after, I left with a Hyundai Elantra Hatch (Mazda had like a 6 month wait for the speed, and even the 2.5 sport manual was 4 month wait, because I had to have manual...and the Fiesta ST was the right price, but too small, and focus ST was the right size but it got into the low $40's) With the elantra, still under power, but hey, at least super cheap at the pump. And with a set of super basic megan coils and wide rubber, it handled great. (Yes, good on gas even with 235s RE01Rs all around, and plus I convinced the wife with the low ride height, she doesnt have to lift as high to load/unload the car seats), I wasn't the happiest camper, but hey, my wife let me keep the 240 for weekends and work.

An opportunity came when my friend was letting go of his EVO, let just say, you will be surprised how much room you get in a "modern" sedan (way bigger than my 96' corolla, even the evo with the smallest interior in its class I think), 2 full on first stage child seats in the back. Yes, the trunk is incredibly small, but it fits a duo seat stroller just fine.

So, yes, you can totally get away with having 2 new borns and a sport sedan. Maybe try to see if ther is a used WRX/STi hatch for more room? On a side note, the EVO is the first AWD car that I owned, OMG the grip.

Let me know what you end up with, we took the car seat to the dealerships when shopping for the the family hauler, and just test drive and test drive, the more cars you drive, and more you can narrow down your search.

Good luck with it, and as for your concern, yes, modern vehicle drives "different" from the sporty cars of the 90s, but there are still plenty of fun to be had.

[BoostedBB6]

The majority of modern cars are really lack luster to drive unless you have a lot to spend.

Things like the F80 M5 are fun when you want them to but and would pull family duty, but for 100k its a little unrealistic to be a people mover.

If you can afford it, get one people mover and one more fun to drive car. That is what we ended up doing and it works well.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

Get an e39 540i/6 Touring?

BMW never made such a car in wagon form. E39 525/528 with a stick are unicorns - I've seen maybe 1 or 2 for sale in Vancouver. Rumour has it fewer than 200 of such cars were imported to North America.

Even if one kicked around, it would command a premium on the used market and I would still have to deal with all of the issues on that chassis such as a suspension rebuild, ABS module rebuild, VANOS rebuild, etc. Plus, it wouldn't have child seat anchors, which kind of defeats the whole purpose.

Originally Posted by Gatorade

CX5 has pretty stiff suspension and heavy steering for a CUV

If autos okay it comes with a 6 speed auto instead of a CVT though power might be lacking (on par with others in segment though)

Don't really care about power (I drove sub-200 HP cars all of my life), but I care about driving dynamics and build quality. I'll definitely give the CX-5 a try, but a brand new one is a little bit of our price range right now.

Originally Posted by dark0821

First, I want to say congratz on the kids! And yes you will still have mod money after....

I was in your exact position about 2 years ago. while my wife was 7 month into her pregnancy, under heavy parents influence from both sides of the family, we pulled the trigger on a Nissan Rogue. Though roomy, it was underpowered and CVT, Everyday I would drive it, and think to myself, how and why am I spending gas money on a car that has worse mileage than my 240.

4 month into the whole baby thing, I gave the rogue to my parents, My complaint to them was, my wife cant lift the car seat high enough.

At that point I was looking for a Mazda Speed 3, one trip to the dealership after, I left with a Hyundai Elantra Hatch (Mazda had like a 6 month wait for the speed, and even the 2.5 sport manual was 4 month wait, because I had to have manual...and the Fiesta ST was the right price, but too small, and focus ST was the right size but it got into the low $40's) With the elantra, still under power, but hey, at least super cheap at the pump. And with a set of super basic megan coils and wide rubber, it handled great. (Yes, good on gas even with 235s RE01Rs all around, and plus I convinced the wife with the low ride height, she doesnt have to lift as high to load/unload the car seats), I wasn't the happiest camper, but hey, my wife let me keep the 240 for weekends and work.

An opportunity came when my friend was letting go of his EVO, let just say, you will be surprised how much room you get in a "modern" sedan (way bigger than my 96' corolla, even the evo with the smallest interior in its class I think), 2 full on first stage child seats in the back. Yes, the trunk is incredibly small, but it fits a duo seat stroller just fine.

So, yes, you can totally get away with having 2 new borns and a sport sedan. Maybe try to see if ther is a used WRX/STi hatch. On a side note, the EVO is the first AWD car that I owned, OMG the grip.

Let me know what you end up with, we took the car seat to the dealerships when shopping for the the family hauler.

Good luck with it, and as for your concern, yes, modern vehicle drives "different" from the sporty cars of the 90s, but there are still plenty of fun to be had.

Thanks man. Don't have two yet, but it's in the plan. It's the convertible rear-facing seat that's a challenge.

I'm glad I wasn't the only person who thought the Rogue was a POS. I drove the Rogue for work once over a couple of days and that experience made me swear off CUVs/SUVs. Of course, there's oddities like the first-gen X3 with a manual, but if I wanted all of the goodness of a BMW, I would have kept my 5-series.

I've always thought about Subarus, but I drove a modern Outback once and it was mediocre. I've been spoiled by soft-touch and premium quality materials of my older cars (my 92 Integra had a better quality interior than our current Mazda 3). I think our Mazda 3 has pretty decent driving dynamics and tossability for a modern car, but it's the wrong transmission. The problem is that it's relatively worthless on the used market (too many examples), but it has low mileage so it still has many years left of reliable, penny-pinching service. We'd like to keep it as an errand runner.

[68style]

I haven't driven a CX-5 and I dislike CUV's too, but I gotta say when I sat in one at the auto show the driving position was exemplary, fit like a glove and I think Mazda works a little harder at driving feel than other companies do based on experience with a Mazda3. Maybe give it a chance? I agree it's quite expensive though and I think you can only get manual on the 2.slow engine.

Do not try a new RAV4, my sister bought one and I drove it from Richmond to Vancouver and back a month ago, I could actually feel the depression setting in from the vague steering feel and anemic everything. I'd shoot myself in the face if that's what I had to look forward to every time I went out. This is coming from a very loyal Toyota guy too.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by 68style

I haven't driven a CX-5 and I dislike CUV's too, but I gotta say when I sat in one at the auto show the driving position was exemplary, fit like a glove and I think Mazda works a little harder at driving feel than other companies do based on experience with a Mazda3. Maybe give it a chance? I agree it's quite expensive though and I think you can only get manual on the 2.slow engine.

Do not try a new RAV4, my sister bought one and I drove it from Richmond to Vancouver and back a month ago, I could actually feel the depression setting in from the vague steering feel and anemic everything. I'd shoot myself in the face if that's what I had to look forward to every time I went out. This is coming from a very loyal Toyota guy too.

There's lots to like about Mazda - the driving dynamics and relative ease of DIY service. I sat in a CX-3 last year while picking up parts at the dealer and I too was impressed with the interior quality. The CX-5 makes sense on many levels, but a new one is just too expensive compared to something like a Golf Wagon which has just as much cargo room and is a real car as opposed to a box on stilts pretending to be a car.

Toyota's implementation of electronic steering leaves a lot to be desired. If the RAV4 is anything like the current Corolla I test drove a year ago, I'll steer clear (sorry bcrdukes).

One more thing about the VWs... I wanted to like the Mark VI Golf with the 2.5 engine, I really did. However, after driving both auto and manual versions, I was just underwhelmed. Perhaps, the Mark VI is just one of those cars that needs to be driven day-in, day-out to be appreciated.

[bcrdukes]

Nix the E91. I had one for a short period and it was not that great and yes, it sucked when wrenching on it. The dashboard was a Christmas tree galore.

Consider the Porsche Cayenne V6 - Cheap, reliable, fast, and fun

Don't get the Corolla. It screams "I gave up on life!"

[slicrick]

Have you considered the Infiniti EX35/EX37?

It is built on the same platform as the G35/G37 and drives similarly to one, also, dat VQ exhaust note. They have been around for a long time now (08-16) between the EX35, EX37 and QX50 which means there is lots of options as far as used examples go. They have a solid track record of reliability as far as I understand and servicing costs shouldn't be outrageous, fuel mileage isn't very good though.

It is kind of an odd size, not small enough to be a "car" but not big enough to be an SUV/CUV, I think it is a nice medium between the two though. I would encourage you to look at one. I think they're great cars.

[IMASA]

I'm in the same boat. Some may have scoffed at this announcement, but I was genuinely excited as I will eventually have to trade in my Mazdaspeed3 and get something in automatic so the wife and I can drive both cars.

Is Toyota Planning a Performance Version of the RAV4?

[yray]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Consider the Porsche Cayenne V6 - Cheap, reliable, fast, and fun

I went to ask Porsche on their lease rates... Sales said 6%. Even Porsche feels like they are worthless as used.

We are moving from pump to drive by wire. Sure, it gives us adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist. But it makes driving a car feel like driving on at Logitech steering wheel with minimal feedback.

And those considering the rogue to be pos. Car is 34k loaded. What do you expect. It's a great point a to b car or a company car.