University vs College Sport Tournament?

[Timpo]

As you know, every time we see University Basketball Team tournament in BC for example, it's always a battle between UVic, UBC and SFU

And for some reason colleges ONLY go against other colleges, Langara, Douglas, Camosun, Columbia Bible, etc.

Another strange thing that I found was that, some universities, for example Vancouver Island University, Capilano University and Quest University do play against Colleges as well. But they never go against UVIC, UBC or SFU.

I really don't understand why this is the case?

It kinda seems like UVIC, UBC and SFU are purposely avoiding other Universities/Colleges sport teams because they're too good to play against those guys?
Like they formed this "TOP 3 Cool Group" so they could care less about playing against other teams?

or is there other reason for it..?

[EmperorIS]

I think different school just joins different leagues. And I think it also depends on the school's resource to host or to visit other teams that the league demands?

[van_city23]

You're completely off. UBC, UVIC, UFV, TWU, UNBC (Prince George) and TRU (kamloops) all play in the CIS (now called U Sports). That league is for universities and largely colleges/universities that have good funding.

SFU plays in NCAA Div 2 for what ever reason (long story) but they used to play in the CIS along with UBC and UVIC.

The other schools you mentioned all play in the college league and they play against colleges across canada but their conference is just western canada colleges. TRU and UFV used to be in that league but as they got larger, they moved to the CIS.

Every summer and early pre-seaon, all the BC teams (college and university) "scrimmage" against each other in preparation for season play. Beside's that, there's no reason to play each other. CIS is the highest level in Canada but that doesn't mean a college team can't beat a CIS team.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by van_city23

You're completely off. UBC, UVIC, UFV, TWU, UNBC (Prince George) and TRU (kamloops) all play in the CIS (now called U Sports). That league is for universities and largely colleges/universities that have good funding.

SFU plays in NCAA Div 2 for what ever reason (long story) but they used to play in the CIS along with UBC and UVIC.

The other schools you mentioned all play in the college league and they play against colleges across canada but their conference is just western canada colleges. TRU and UFV used to be in that league but as they got larger, they moved to the CIS.

Every summer and early pre-seaon, all the BC teams (college and university) "scrimmage" against each other in preparation for season play. Beside's that, there's no reason to play each other. CIS is the highest level in Canada but that doesn't mean a college team can't beat a CIS team.

So the difference between U Sport and college league is funding?
From your description, it sounds like each league is divided based on funding, not skill level.

[Verdasco]

is NCAA div 2 better or worst than CIS?

[van_city23]

Originally Posted by Timpo

So the difference between U Sport and college league is funding?
From your description, it sounds like each league is divided based on funding, not skill level.

I think there's a variety of factors and funding probably propels it. I don't know the exact criteria but it considers things such as school size, number of teams, number of sports, etc. So again, bigger the school, the more students, the more money there is, and the more sports/teams can be supported.

There are some really good college teams and college players that can compete in the CIS. Keep in mind, CIS has university teams which means that the players have to qualify for university... Plenty of skilled athletes who can't get into university but go to college and play sports.

Originally Posted by Verdasco

is NCAA div 2 better or worst than CIS?

That's debatable. I think it depends more on the particular sport. I know there's no div 2 hockey and CIS has hockey.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by van_city23

Plenty of skilled athletes who can't get into university but go to college and play sports.

That's what I was thinking.

Some of the talented athletes who couldn't get high enough GPA will end up at Langara for example, so it could be the case that Langara's basketball team is actually stronger and better than UBC.

[godwin]

The school budget has a lot to do with it.. travel cost, billet etc. Ever wonder why UBC always fund raise so much and build start of the art buildings? Not to mention, each school has to pay for their spot in the league they want.

Also having sports team allow individual schools in a university like kinesiology, sports medicine etc do their thing, so there are secondary benefits that comes in handy when the faculty is applying for funding from the Federal gov every year. eg It is easier to do concussion research if your school can afford a football team vs you have to go another school etc. A faculty chair here, a multi year funding there adds up.

However the funding for sports in Canada is peanuts compared with the US.. check out U Oregon's Football program, pretty sure its associated facility probably have a budget way larger than a lot of pro sports in Canada.

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by Verdasco

is NCAA div 2 better or worst than CIS?

As van_city noted, it's sport-dependent.

That said, the athlete pool in the USA is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy deeper than in Canada, so while a CIS athlete may be able to hang playing for a NCAA2 team, I suspect as a whole the NCAA2 will possess the better pool of athletes.

[van_city23]

Originally Posted by Timpo

That's what I was thinking.

Some of the talented athletes who couldn't get high enough GPA will end up at Langara for example, so it could be the case that Langara's basketball team is actually stronger and better than UBC.

Yup that could be but not this year. UBC is ranked #2 in CIS this year. Very good team. Check them out if you ever have time.

Originally Posted by godwin

However the funding for sports in Canada is peanuts compared with the US.. check out U Oregon's Football program, pretty sure its associated facility probably have a budget way larger than a lot of pro sports in Canada.

Yah there's some football schools in NCAA Div 1 that generate so much revenue that they fund the entire damn school. So without the football program, the school wouldn't have money. Completely different beast down in the states.

[teggy604]

If you are a talented athlete you most likely will not be going to post secondary schools in Canada. You would be heading south if you want to try for pro sports. Way more colleges, funding, and connections. I think the States college football is probably bigger than our CFL football. They are crazy for their college football.

[Traum]

Ai... this brings back some good ol' memories.

Way back when I was involved in college sports, Langara and Douglas had some very good teams. In the particular sport that I was involved in, these 2 colleges actually attract a lot of top calibre athletes. I knew a hs girl that accepted a Douglas sports scholarship instead of going to UBC because she wanted to keep playing sports (or rather, the sport that she specialized in). At the time, a good number of players from the BC provincial team were playing for either of the 2 colleges. As a matter of fact, a retired Mainland Chinese national team player was studying at one of those 2 colleges (I forgot which one), and obviously the person was kicking major a$$.

For a number of years, the College championship was regularly fought between Douglas and Langara. But some time after I got out of the sport, the star coach at Douglas was no longer coaching the team.

Ai... those good old days when I was young and full of energy...

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Timpo

That's what I was thinking.

Some of the talented athletes who couldn't get high enough GPA will end up at Langara for example, so it could be the case that Langara's basketball team is actually stronger and better than UBC.

While theoretically this is possible, it isn't very likely. Like many people have said already, UBC has a huge athletics budget compared to minnows like Langara. If Langara is able to attract certain athletes because they can't make it into UBC academically, UBC still has the money available to attract other athletes from other parts of the country. Many of these high end athletes don't stay at colleges like Langara for their 5 years of eligibility and will typically transfer to a bigger school or just drop out completely. UBC coaches also have a bit of wiggle room to get athletes into school. They still have to meet a certain average, but it's lower than a typical student trying to get into the school.

To add to your first post about the "Big 3," it was only very recently (last 10-15 years) when schools like VIU (Malaspina College), Capilano (College), UBCO (Okanagan University College), UFV (University College of the Fraser Valley) and TRU (University College of the Cariboo) became universities. They all used to compete in the BCCAA (BC Colleges Athletic Association - now called Pacwest) against other colleges in BC similar in size (Camosun, Douglas, Kwantlen, CNC, CBC, COTR, Selkirk, Quest). Many of these schools applied to the CIS (now U Sports) for better competition and money as their schools grew. Pacwest unfortunately is a tiny league now with 7 teams playing in basketball and volleyball and just 5 in soccer.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

While theoretically this is possible, it isn't very likely. Like many people have said already, UBC has a huge athletics budget compared to minnows like Langara. If Langara is able to attract certain athletes because they can't make it into UBC academically, UBC still has the money available to attract other athletes from other parts of the country. Many of these high end athletes don't stay at colleges like Langara for their 5 years of eligibility and will typically transfer to a bigger school or just drop out completely. UBC coaches also have a bit of wiggle room to get athletes into school. They still have to meet a certain average, but it's lower than a typical student trying to get into the school.

To add to your first post about the "Big 3," it was only very recently (last 10-15 years) when schools like VIU (Malaspina College), Capilano (College), UBCO (Okanagan University College), UFV (University College of the Fraser Valley) and TRU (University College of the Cariboo) became universities. They all used to compete in the BCCAA (BC Colleges Athletic Association - now called Pacwest) against other colleges in BC similar in size (Camosun, Douglas, Kwantlen, CNC, CBC, COTR, Selkirk, Quest). Many of these schools applied to the CIS (now U Sports) for better competition and money as their schools grew. Pacwest unfortunately is a tiny league now with 7 teams playing in basketball and volleyball and just 5 in soccer.

ohh ok I didn't know about those colleges becoming universities and Pacwest and all that.

I understand your point about larger budget of UBC, but if I give you an exaggerated example, that's like saying all the NBA or NFL players have Bachelor's degree or higher, or have gone to universities.
Not saying elite athletes are not academically inclined, but there might be some high school drop outs who are just super talented at basketball.

[godwin]

It is silly to paint university athletes to have lower GPA. In fact if you look at admission states for post grads eg med, a good chunk of them had played sports. You have wash outs at every level in life.

I would argue for university players who survive the rigors of an undergrad program, most likely to have superior time management and team skills than non playing undergrads.

Most sports inclined students would end up in the states though, since Ivy League schools (or even State level schools) offer way better scholarships, facilities, mentorship etc than Canada.

Originally Posted by Timpo

ohh ok I didn't know about those colleges becoming universities and Pacwest and all that.

I understand your point about larger budget of UBC, but if I give you an exaggerated example, that's like saying all the NBA or NFL players have Bachelor's degree or higher, or have gone to universities.
Not saying elite athletes are not academically inclined, but there might be some high school drop outs who are just super talented at basketball.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by godwin

It is silly to paint university athletes to have lower GPA. In fact if you look at admission states for post grads eg med, a good chunk of them had played sports. You have wash outs at every level in life.

I would argue for university players who survive the rigors of an undergrad program, most likely to have superior time management and team skills than non playing undergrads.

Most sports inclined students would end up in the states though, since Ivy League schools (or even State level schools) offer way better scholarships, facilities, mentorship etc than Canada.

I'm not saying that top athletes have low GPA.
But I'm sure there are some people who are really athletic and not so good at academic stuff.

That's like saying "It's silly to paint computer engineers and doctors have low motor nerve"
Well I'm sure there are bunch of computer engineers and doctors that are very good at sports, but I'm sure there are some people who suck at sports but excel academically.

[m4k4v4li]

different leagues different requirements pretty straight forward

there is plenty commingling of exhibition games, but you don't see it more often because lower tier leagues would often get blown out by bench warmers

even pacwest there is a trial run with new colleges to see if they can compete first (Quest their first year they went like 0 - 14 or something)