Christmas & Religion

[Tone Loc]

Just going to start by saying that I'm not trying to bash anybody's religious beliefs nor start a debate/argument about "how" Christmas should be celebrated. These are just my personal views. If you don't agree with me, I respect that but please try to stay on topic.

I've been with my girlfriend for 11 months now, and this is our first Christmas together. She comes from a devoutly Catholic family, and though she isn't a practising Catholic per se, she is very much about all of the traditions regarding it. One of these traditions is going to Mass on Christmas Eve.

I too come from Catholic parents, but have a more negative view on religion in general. Due to a lot of negative experiences in my youth with not only my family but other religious people in general both within our church and outside of it, I stay away from religious events/ideas. I'd rather not go into more detail, but suffice to say that I am very far from religious. While I am not atheist or "hate" the idea of God, I see myself as more of an agnostic who believes in a higher power but sees religion as a man-made creation that has lost sight of the positive messages in it (such as "love your neighbor as yourself" and "we are all sinners so don't judge others").

As such, I told her that I respect her decision to want to go to Mass on Christmas eve, but I did not want to take part. She then asked me if I would be like that "forever" and honestly, I don't know.

Somehow the conversation then turned into asking me if I we got married, would I refuse to be married in a church. I told her that I wouldn't refuse because it would be important to both of our families, but ultimately it would be meaningless to me to have a Catholic wedding.

Needless to say, she wasn't happy with my decision though she respects my views. But it's easy to see that this will be a issue moving forward.

Am I in the wrong for being supportive of her religious views but making the decision not to take part? I know it is important to her, and I thought about "sucking it up" and going just to make her happy but it seems meaningless if I strongly disagree with the institutions and belief systems behind it.

Thoughts?

[320icar]

You either bite the bullet or leave. Religion comes with the person and compromise is on both sides. My brother married a Christian, so they do midnight mass. But the positive is that Christmas Day is now open to spend it with our side of the family.

Give and take

[fliptuner]

I follow my gf's cultural/religious practices when required, just to keep her and her family happy. Doesn't mean I have to believe in any of it. She knows I'd rather be doing something else and appreciates the effort and would do the same for me.

Conversely, if it's something you're really against, she should understand and respect that.

The big test will be when you have kids and you don't want them baptized.

[Tone Loc]

Originally Posted by fliptuner

The big test will be when you have kids and you don't want them baptized.

I agree with you and 320icar for saying that attending mass wouldn't harm me in any way, and that it doesn't mean I'm automatically a practising believer just by being a supportive boyfriend.

But your quote is definitely something that worries me, even though we haven't been dating for very long, the whole idea of how we would raise our children has definitely crossed my mind a few times.

I'm trying to keep those thoughts at bay by telling myself that I too was baptized as a child but that didn't change anything regarding how I act or what I believe. I guess that's a problem for another day though.

[320icar]

Yeah, just enjoy life and see where everything goes. That’s future tone loc’s problem. My family isn’t religious at all, but my brother and i attended Sunday school. My parents thought we should make our own choice whether religion is right for us (and no. Helllllll no)

[6793026]

I'm a religious man, BEEN through the same SHIT you did. Make the choice now. WHY? This is NOT just 1 decision eg// I'm going to go golfing on Sat, or Yoga is my hobby, but this is a religious belief which affects EVERYTHING. HOW?

1) If you have a kid, you won't go to church, but if your wife wants the kid to go to church... do you have a say?
2) Wife wants kids to get baptized... would u go? If the wife wants a religious name...
3) Pay $3000 a month for Private Christian school (or *insert religion here); pay for uniforms....will you have a fight with wife and say FUCK YOU, I ain't paying for that shit.
4) Kids going to church and you don't.
5) Would you wake up every Sunday to help your wife gets up at 6 AM so that the 2 & 4 yr old can get dressed to go to church.
6) Say your wife wants to donate to the homeless shelters because their church / religion is doing a fundraiser, will you say NO?

See what I'm getting at. This is not just 1 hobby or 1 personality trait, this is a WHOLE new perspective on life choices you two NEED to work out. Have the talk early and walk away if you can't handle it.

[MSREE]

Relationships are about compromise. Life would be impeccably easy if you dated/married someone just like you, but is an easy life your best life? Do you love her? Are you happy in your relationship?

If yes, do the damn thing. Christmas Eve mass is one day, 1-2 hours out of the year. How many hours does she invest in you and your relationship as a whole in one year? If it's more than 2 hours, then don't you think she deserves that as someone youve come to build a relationship with?

I'm the same as you. I went to private Catholic school for 8 years, went to church every Wednesday and Sunday, and my whole Filipino family are HEAVY GOD FEARING CATHOLICS. But even so, they let me explore my spirituality from the age of 14. I believe in God but I don't believe in the fear religion conditions you to feel. I went to all different kinds of congregations, masses, services to find who I was and my family respected me for it. Even though I did not agree with religion and the hypocrisy that is the Catholic Church, for the love and respect of my family - I prayed with them, went to mass with my parents for their birthdays/special holidays/weekends where I could wake up early enough. My parents were so happy when I would go with them and that really made it worth it. It's an hour or two a week. I spend more time scrolling through instagram or messing around in RS threads every day. Plus when I was going because I made the choice to, I found it to be much more fulfilling and even enjoyable. So much different than if you were fully resisting mentally and emotionally.

I have to stress that having an open attitude/mind and a open heart definitely helps. Compromise is an act of love. If you walk into a compromise filled with contempt and resentment I guarantee 100% you're only making it worse than it has to be.

My bf now was not baptized, was not raised religious at all... but even at family functions he knew to put his head down to pray before a meal from watching the rest of us. I don't think us having kids would be an issue because raising your child to be religious does not have to be all or nothing. As children, you teach them the foundations....but ultimately they should always have the freedom to decide their beliefs for themselves as they get older.

If I wanted to go to church I wouldnt hesitate to ask my partner. I've sat through hours....no, days/full weekends of bodybuilding competitions and shit he wants to do that bore me to my very core because that's what he's passionate about lol. It's lame to me but if he loves it and believes in it ill do it. I may even have fun in the moment.

[SkinnyPupp]

It's definitely something that needs to be addressed before you get too serious. I think you could get along fine as an atheist with a religious partner, or one with a religious family. Just be open. Not many functioning couples are 100% in agreement on everything anyway.

But when it comes to how to raise kids... That's something that you need to think seriously about when considering marriage (if that's the end goal anyway). I get along great with religious, non religious, superstitious, etc, people but I think it would be a different story when it comes to raising children. Can't relate to that though, so... good luck!

[Tone Loc]

6793026, very good points and though I'm not sure that my girlfriend is that level of religious, it's definitely something we need to discuss soon. I think that if she were to be a very devout Catholic, I would have to seriously reconsider whether I wanted to stay with her long-term.

MSREE, I'm Filipino too and I think we had a very similar background. I have/had no problem appeasing my parents with abiding by their traditions because they were always "moderate" with the majority of their beliefs. They were actually quite open-minded as they never forced me to go to church, donate money, pray, etc. My negative past experiences regarding religion and family always came from the more "extreme God fearing Catholics" which unfortunately comprise most of my extended family and people I knew growing up. It was from them that I realized how hypocritical, judgmental, and sometimes downright hateful devout Christians can be (as well as other religions).

As I got to know my girlfriend's parents better, I began to realize that her parents also fell on that end of the spectrum. It's super interesting to observe actually, because overall they are very kind, sweet, and caring people but when something like the Pride Parade or a pro-LGBT event or a music video where the female performer is scantily clad appears on TV, for instance, they turn into extremely bigoted and intolerant people. While my girlfriend fortunately doesn't share the same views, she does identify with being Catholic.

I agree with what you're saying about compromise, and I'm beginning to realize that I am willing to compromise to a certain extent; the struggle begins with asking how much is too much? I don't mind going to Mass once a year or not have meat on Christmas Eve (she wanted to do that too) but I guess I'm trying to find the "line in the sand" so to speak regarding what I will do and won't do. Especially if we get to the stage where we have kids, I don't want them learning the negative aspects of religion such as the "fear" aspect you talk about, as well as the judgmental attitude towards things like gay marriage, premarital sex, women's rights, divorce etc. I however would want them to learn from the "good" aspects of religion such as loving one's neighbor, turning the other cheek, not judging others, living with integrity and respecting one's body etc.

I guess it's all a delicate balancing act, but definitely worth talking about.....

[MSREE]

Yay filipinos!

Anyway, i would say the line in the sand would be something for you and gf to talk about for sure. Every relationship is different so you guys will have to find what works where you are both happy with the outcome.
You guys have been dating 11 mos so Id say just enjoy the relationship while you can. If youre still quite young, take the obstacles as you go. Theres nothing wrong with having an open honest conversation with her now about how you feel.

When you really feel shes the one and this could go all the way, then have the convo again about how to raise kids etc. You might even change a bit as time goes on, who knows.

Before i was very against having my future kids go to private catholic school. But now im older honestly, i wouldnt mind as long as I participate in heavily enriching them with the positive values of religion at home and im teaching them all that judgmental/bigoted/close minded stuff is a no no in the real world. I used to not want my kids to go to mass, but now i do. I think for children its great because they learn some discipline and how to sit quietly and respectfully. Ive seen too many kids that are out and about in public seriously wreaking havoc because their parents look away for 1 min.
My hubby now is very laid back, so our actual convo about our relationships future (religion/wedding ceremonies/raising kids) was like 3 mins and we were both happy with the outcome.

Good luck

Ps: the no meat on Christmas Eve sucks. Thats a new rule right? That would def be on the compromise list for me lol.

[tiger_handheld]

Originally Posted by 6793026

I'm a religious man, BEEN through the same SHIT you did. Make the choice now. WHY? This is NOT just 1 decision eg// I'm going to go golfing on Sat, or Yoga is my hobby, but this is a religious belief which affects EVERYTHING. HOW?

1) If you have a kid, you won't go to church, but if your wife wants the kid to go to church... do you have a say?
2) Wife wants kids to get baptized... would u go? If the wife wants a religious name...
3) Pay $3000 a month for Private Christian school (or *insert religion here); pay for uniforms....will you have a fight with wife and say FUCK YOU, I ain't paying for that shit.
4) Kids going to church and you don't.
5) Would you wake up every Sunday to help your wife gets up at 6 AM so that the 2 & 4 yr old can get dressed to go to church.
6) Say your wife wants to donate to the homeless shelters because their church / religion is doing a fundraiser, will you say NO?
7) Wife wants to give 10% of family pay cheque to church, will you say NO?

See what I'm getting at. This is not just 1 hobby or 1 personality trait, this is a WHOLE new perspective on life choices you two NEED to work out. Have the talk early and walk away if you can't handle it.

added #7.

it's easier when you have the same values (be it faith based values or non-faith based values).

[MSREE]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

added #7.

it's easier when you have the same values (be it faith based values or non-faith based values).

Catholics have never been required to tithe. You can give as much or as little as you want. In any case, parish members are given donation envelopes. If you're not part of the parish and attend mass occasionally, your donations during collection are anonymous anyways.

Different kinds of Christians are required to tithe 10% because it's an Old Testament obligation.

[ForbiddenX]

I'm pretty much living this situation right now. I'm a born and raised Catholic (filipino like you guys haha). Went to Catholic elementary and high school, was really involved, altar served and did ministry. It wasn't until I finished high school where I really kind of took a step back and had a falling out with my faith. I like to say I'm agnostic when it comes to faith.

I met my wife at that high school and she's a practicing Catholic. She respects my views but also does appreciate it when I go to mass with her, but I really really hate going to mass. It's one of the biggest things that annoys me about the Catholic faith but that's a different story. I'd much rather spend time playing video games or watching the football games lol.

We used to argue about this while we were engaged and how she wanted me to always go to mass with her. I was honestly in the same boat with going just to make her happy. I typically just went because it was more work to argue about it than to just shut my mouth for an hour (we lived 5 minutes walking distance from a church lol). And something always came up in the homily that would remind me why I hated this and she would have to listen to me rant. I also never liked the idea of "just going to be there", to me that defeats the whole purpose of mass. What's the point of me going if I'm not even participating?

Nowadays, she's been more ok with me not going and she just goes with parents. I admit it's pretty childish, but when I do go, I end up sleeping during the homilies / communion which is partly why she is more okay with me not going. But when I do go we end up going dimsum or pho which is fine by me.

She knows and respects that I'll never be a practicing Cathloic again, and our compromises have been me just going if I feel like it or if we're going to be doing something after mass.

But the next issues have been kids... we're planning on having kids soon so these topics have come up pretty much everytime I've gone to mass

1) If you have a kid, you won't go to church, but if your wife wants the kid to go to church... do you have a say?

I told my wife I'd be ok with this as long as when they do decide that it's not for them either that she would be ok with it.

2) Wife wants kids to get baptized... would u go? If the wife wants a religious name...

I don't mind this as this would be a pre-requisite for 1 eitherway. Religious names do sound a bit more epic ie: Zebadiah

3) Pay $3000 a month for Private Christian school (or *insert religion here); pay for uniforms....will you have a fight with wife and say FUCK YOU, I ain't paying for that shit.

I'm already strongly against this. Not only did my parents have to pay $3000 a month, I felt like I didn't get to explore as many subjets / electives as those who went to public school. I went to a small school that had 3 electives...

4) Kids going to church and you don't.
Don't mind this

5) Would you wake up every Sunday to help your wife gets up at 6 AM so that the 2 & 4 yr old can get dressed to go to church.

Don't mind this too much as we go to a late morning mass.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Dated someone who is a Catholic/Christians don't remember but never again. God it sucks (no pun intended). Beside the fact that we been together for 8 months there are still no sex, close to 0 hugs and kisses (coz is against her beliefs). I still remember it was like after our 3 or 4 date as we going home I try to give her a good bye hug she basically froze and step away. Later that night she asked why did I do that and she was unconfortable. I was like wtf is like a good bye hug, I mean even just regular friends I do that sometimes is not like a big deal...

Now I am not exactly anti Catholic/Christians and I do go to church time to time when I was younger but to have to get up early every Sunday and attend church isn't my cup of tea. If I didn't go my ex would have a very serious talk with me that same day. She is also against some of the stuff I do and wants me to stop coz is a sin (fraping is one of them or watching pron....). Oh and don't even bother suggesting to go on vacation or even an overnight trip. To her that's not allow until marriage...... Like I even explain we could you sleep on the bed and I just sleep on the sofa or something. Nope not allow.

Now the good side of things is that she was very serious about the relationship, when there is an issue she actually say it and not just try to avoid it, very understanding and forgiving as long as you try to break your bad habit. So if you share the same beliefs is great. Otherwise is not fun. I guess that's why they usually find their partner in church as well.

[Tone Loc]

Originally Posted by 6793026

1) If you have a kid, you won't go to church, but if your wife wants the kid to go to church... do you have a say?
I'm fine with this, as long as we sit down with them and talk about (A) how the negative elements of religion are a no-no in my house and (B) how they don't have to go should they decide they don't want to. My wife would also have to be okay with it should they decide that.

2) Wife wants kids to get baptized... would u go? If the wife wants a religious name...
I would go. But like I said I would sit down with them and talk about how they are free to choose their own viewpoints/beliefs when they are mature enough.

3) Pay $3000 a month for Private Christian school (or *insert religion here); pay for uniforms....will you have a fight with wife and say FUCK YOU, I ain't paying for that shit.
Nope. No private school for my kids, Christian or otherwise. I went to a public school and I think being around children from all walks of life are an important part of growing up. Especially growing up in East Van before gentrification happened, I think learning "street smarts" is one of the biggest benefits of public school, and an element that lots of wealthier, sheltered children seriously lack. Plus, I don't want my children learning from a super biased point of view on things like science, history, especially sex education, etc.

4) Kids going to church and you don't.
See 1 and 2.

5) Would you wake up every Sunday to help your wife gets up at 6 AM so that the 2 & 4 yr old can get dressed to go to church.
I work shift work anyway so I'm used to waking up at odd times. No biggie.

6) Say your wife wants to donate to the homeless shelters because their church / religion is doing a fundraiser, will you say NO?
Once I move out and start working more consistently, I always wanted to volunteer at shelters. So I don't mind this at all.

7) Wife wants to give 10% of family pay cheque to church, will you say NO?
She can donate 10% of her pay cheque. I won't be. If the conversation is about helping others in need, I would be okay with donating 10% of my pay to a non-religious charitable organization however.

Originally Posted by MSREE

Yay filipinos!

Ps: the no meat on Christmas Eve sucks. Thats a new rule right? That would def be on the compromise list for me lol.

She's Eastern European, so I think her family tradition is that Christmas Eve is the "end" of Lent so to speak... so they don't eat meat the night before. Very hard for me because in MY family, we always do our huge feast and stuff our faces on Christmas Eve. If she's adamant on no meat in the house, I can always sneak off to the DQ across the street.

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Beside the fact that we been together for 8 months there are still no sex, close to 0 hugs and kisses (coz is against her beliefs).She is also against some of the stuff I do and wants me to stop coz is a sin (fraping is one of them or watching pron....).

Props to you because I could never do that. Luckily my girlfriend isn't quite that devout. IMO, the physical connection between two people is equally important as the mental, emotional, and psychological connection. Not just sex but things like kisses, hugs, cuddling, holding hands, etc. That's actually part of why I am against religion so much (not only Christianity but also Islam is guilty of this) and how it essentially tells people to not only deny their biological urges, but fear them and be ashamed of them. Especially for women. But that's another debate altogether....

Originally Posted by ForbiddenX

I was honestly in the same boat with going just to make her happy. I typically just went because it was more work to argue about it than to just shut my mouth for an hour (we lived 5 minutes walking distance from a church lol). And something always came up in the homily that would remind me why I hated this and she would have to listen to me rant. I also never liked the idea of "just going to be there", to me that defeats the whole purpose of mass. What's the point of me going if I'm not even participating?

Yeah, I think going to mass on Christmas Eve for me is something that will happen because it's wayyyyyy more work to argue about something that is so simple. Obviously my counter argument is similar to yours because I don't like the idea of just going for the sake of going. I see it similar to the gym, where you go and give 100% as opposed to just going for the sake of taking a mirror selfie or walking on the treadmill for 15 minutes. Kinda defeats the whole purpose, as you said.

[6793026]

Great discussion here all. Don't want to dive too deeply on what religion nor how people misinterpret the true meaning of things, I see a lot of you here are a bit more mature than some.

There are people who would never negotiate or compromise and they key is to realize that and walk away.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

you can just do what this guy does:









if i really liked her, i'd prob say ok... i'll go to mass. once a year. LOL.

but then you'll have to go to star wars, once a year.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by Tone Loc

Am I in the wrong for being supportive of her religious views but making the decision not to take part? I know it is important to her, and I thought about "sucking it up" and going just to make her happy but it seems meaningless if I strongly disagree with the institutions and belief systems behind it.

I don't see how you could be "in the wrong" for not wanting to go any more than she would be for forcing you to do something which is against your beliefs.

Originally Posted by Tone Loc

I however would want them to learn from the "good" aspects of religion such as loving one's neighbor, turning the other cheek, not judging others, living with integrity and respecting one's body etc.

Originally Posted by MSREE

I used to not want my kids to go to mass, but now i do. I think for children its great because they learn some discipline and how to sit quietly and respectfully. Ive seen too many kids that are out and about in public seriously wreaking havoc because their parents look away for 1 min.

You can teach them all those things without religion, just like how religious people can completely miss them. I don't get why so many people seem to think religion has anything to with your ability to learn things like that.

Originally Posted by MSREE

Before i was very against having my future kids go to private catholic school. But now im older honestly, i wouldnt mind as long as I participate in heavily enriching them with the positive values of religion at home and im teaching them all that judgmental/bigoted/close minded stuff is a no no in the real world.

So you want them to spend time that they could have been learning useful things on religion, and then spend more of your own time teaching them to ignore half of the stuff the learned in those religious classes? That doesn't make much sense.

[snowball]

I found myself in the same situation many moons ago. In the end, we broke up and I don't regret it. She encouraged me to go to church with her, or at least give it a try. But it went against everything I believe in. I believe in people, not worshipping. Eventually I would also meet her friends who would go to church for the social aspect but not actually believe any of the teachings; what's the point?

She wanted our kids to go to church. I definitely couldn't do it. Maybe I'm too much of a liberal snowflake but I believe too much in free thought and refuse to brainwash my children and skew their understanding of the world and teach them through the eyes of a cult. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh calling religions cults, but that's what they are. Look at the mess they make. Between people of different religions, same religion (different sects) and people of non-religion. My kids won't do the right thing and help others because they're afraid of a man in the sky or of going to hell. They'll do the right thing because they'll choose to.

[MSREE]

Originally Posted by underscore

You can teach them all those things without religion, just like how religious people can completely miss them. I don't get why so many people seem to think religion has anything to with your ability to learn things like that.

So you want them to spend time that they could have been learning useful things on religion, and then spend more of your own time teaching them to ignore half of the stuff the learned in those religious classes? That doesn't make much sense.

I've been through many extreme hardships as a child/teen/adult and I believe my unwavering, unique, personal faith and mental resiliency was a result of the values I learned not just in Catholic religion alone. My spirituality is a combination of positive aspects of many different religions/beliefs that I have participated in as well as Universal Truths. I choose to expose my children to all of them. When they are able to make the choices for themselves, they are free and able to.

My choices on how to raise my children and why don't have to make sense to you or anyone outside my immediate familial unit. It only needs to make sense to my partner, which it does.

[Tone Loc]

Thanks for all of the opinions guys. I should probably re-state that when I say I want my future kids to learn the "good" aspects of religion, what I mean is that I acknowledge that religion isn't completely negative and that I understand that there are some positive values they could learn. Hell, the discipline of getting them to sit still and be quiet for an hour and a half, without a cell phone/iPad/tablet or even a book, is a virtue in itself for our day and age.

But, that brings me to a great point that was made below:

Originally Posted by snowball

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh calling religions cults, but that's what they are. Look at the mess they make. Between people of different religions, same religion (different sects) and people of non-religion. My kids won't do the right thing and help others because they're afraid of a man in the sky or of going to hell. They'll do the right thing because they'll choose to.

My personal experiences aside, I look at all of the bad things happening in the world with respect to terrorism, bigotry, etc. and I can't help but realize that religion plays a pretty significant role in dividing people and turning them against each other.

When I talk about negative aspects of religion, the above is exactly what I mean. I don't want my children doing ANYTHING, positive or negative, because they are afraid or compelled to by the idea that some old man in the sky wants them to or because they are afraid to go to Hell. I don't want their kids to respect others because God said so, but because it's the right thing to do. Likewise, I don't want my kid to be embarrassed of their sexual orientation, body image, style of clothing, or attitude towards sex, because of something the pastor said.

It's a complex debate for sure, but I think if it is "just Mass" then I will suck it up and go. Like Ulic said, now I can get her to come watch The Last Jedi with me or something haha. But as others have said before, I think if things become more serious, a sit-down chat about our expectations with respect to religion will be needed.