Jamal Khashoggi - what happened to him?

[Acura604]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...shoggi/572851/

Last week, when Jamal Khashoggi disappeared after entering the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, I said the situation carried a strong aroma of foul play by the Saudis. Now, in the absence of even the feeblest explanation by the Saudis of what might have befallen Khashoggi, other than a planned hit, the strong aroma has graduated to a full-on cadaverous reek. What are the other possibilities? Did the bureaucratic errand he completed in the consulate persuade him to exit through a side door, fleeing his fiancée—she was waiting outside—without a farewell? A growing crowd of U.S. congressmen and Cabinet members is concluding that Saudi Arabia assassinated its most prominent dissident, and that sanctions or more must follow. The Saudi response: denial, but no alternative theory.

The strongest evidence that Saudi Arabia did not kill Khashoggi is that its response to these inevitable accusations has been so hapless, and the predictable fallout so disastrous. If Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MbS) ordered an operation that ended with Khashoggi dead, what MbS has gained by terrifying other dissidents and ending Khashoggi’s series of mildly blistering Washington Post columns cannot be worth his loss of international support. His friends are fleeing. The New York Times columnist Thomas L. Friedman profiled MbS and his radical plans for Saudi Arabia last year. Even then, long before anyone thought MbS might turn his consulates into abattoirs, critics mocked Friedman for his credulity and for thinking this Arab tyrant would turn out to be more enlightened than his predecessors. (Never mind that MbS has implemented many reforms—including the end of official support for Saudi Arabia’s least popular export, jihadi Salafism—that the West has long been demanding.) Friedman’s column this week on Khashoggi all but admitted that MbS is starting to look crazy. MbS spent two years crafting an image of reform-minded indispensability. If the consensus holds that he killed Khashoggi, he will take years to get back to where he was before Khashoggi stepped into the consulate.


The nations that gain from this affair are two regional enemies of Saudi Arabia: Qatar and Turkey. Officials from the latter have leaked virtually all the graphic details of the killing: that Khashoggi was dragged from one room to another; that the moment of his death was videotaped; that his corpse was hewn with a bone saw brought for the occasion. These details suggest a plan conceived and executed by professional slaughterers. But the details of this operation raise macabre practical questions. Why the bone saw, a piece of specialized surgical equipment? As a former butcher I can assure you that a saw from Home Depot will hack apart a mammal just as effectively, and is cheaper and much easier to explain. These official sources all portray the killing as cold-blooded (“like Pulp Fiction,” said one cinephile source), with every detail planned, to maximum psychopathic effect. Khashoggi had long-standing sympathies with the Muslim Brotherhood, which now finds its greatest support from Qatar and Turkey. Now those two governments have an effective wedge issue to divide the United States from Saudi Arabia, and extraordinary evidence that MbS is as sinister, and perhaps also as buffoonish, as Qaddafi or Saddam. This is the best week for Qatar and Turkey in some time.

So what happened? One possibility is that the Saudis lured Khashoggi into the consulate to kill him and dismember his corpse. Under this theory, consistent with the Turkish accounts, MbS is deranged. To carry out this assassination, he chose the one place in Istanbul where Saudi guilt would be universally acknowledged and undeniable. A drive-by shooting, or a car bomb, would not have sufficed. He killed Khashoggi to make an example of him, and without concern for the consequences.

Another possibility is that the Saudis merely (I use the adverb advisedly) intended to kidnap Khashoggi. They then botched the job and accidentally killed him. In this version of events, the Saudis would have informed Khashoggi that he was under arrest, and that his only choice would be to consent to transport to Saudi Arabia, to repent publicly, and to submit to indefinite house arrest. If Khashoggi balked, he would be attacked, drugged, stuffed in a box, and brought to the airport as an unwilling passenger. In due time, after persuasion and coercion, Khashoggi would surface in Riyadh to admit his error.

A Reuters source, no more or less credible than the Turkish sources, claims that a plan to kidnap Khashoggi went awry. Like many anonymous rumors, this one comes without even basic elaboration. Did they shoot him as he tried to flee? Did he have a heart attack? Did they overdose him?

I asked Ronald W. Dworkin, a Maryland anesthesiologist and the author of Medical Catastrophe: Confessions of an Anesthesiologist, how to sedate and transport a large 59-year-old Saudi man against his will. I wish all physicians answered my questions so bluntly.

To drop Khashoggi to the floor in the first place, he said, would be easy. A big dose of ketamine—the club drug Special K, administered with the jab of a needle—would do the job. (There’s Pulp Fiction again.) Pediatric patients who threw tantrums on the way to the operating room, he said, used to get sedated unceremoniously in just such a fashion. Once he was out, they could give him an intravenous sedative, such as a benzodiazepine, and Khashoggi would be unconscious as long as they pleased.

But Dworkin cautioned that “it’s not like Mission: Impossible.” Once Khashoggi was out, they’d have to watch him closely. Crumpling him into a steamer trunk wouldn’t be enough. Judging by the shape of his head and neck, Dworkin says, Khashoggi would have required management and monitoring to keep him alive. His beard would complicate use of an oxygen mask. The operation of moving him would be “very tricky,” Dworkin says, “and require moment-to-moment attendance by someone with expertise in airway management. Without that, the patient would likely obstruct or stop breathing altogether, and die.” The Turks have released a list of passengers on the Saudi jets that came to Istanbul that day. At least one doctor was among them, but he was a specialist in forensic medicine, not anesthesiology.

At this point we are far out on a limb of speculation. But of the few scenarios that have even been suggested—planned execution, successful abduction, or failed abduction—only the third begins to account for the interests of the Saudis and their feckless reaction to the global outrage and recriminations at Khashoggi’s disappearance. Not all actions are rational, of course—but neither are all anonymous sources motivated solely by commitment to truth. All we really know is that Khashoggi walked in but not out, and that the Saudis sent a suspicious delegation to Istanbul on the day he vanished. Until the sources provide evidence to substantiate their accounts, speculation is all we’ll have.

[CivicBlues]

There was a hilarious comment on Reddit the other day regarding this:

The Saudis have now released CCTV showing the dissident safely exiting the consulate, commenting that Khashoggi had always preferred to walk backwards out of buildings.

[Badhobz]

I’m glad they cut diplomatic relations with us. Fuck that ass backwards country.

[welfare]

So has any actual evidence of what happened come forward?
Or just a multitude of scenarios from anonymous sources?

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by welfare

So has any actual evidence of what happened come forward?
Or just a multitude of scenarios from anonymous sources?

The Turkish government has audio of the indecent.

[welfare]

Originally Posted by Manic!

The Turkish government has audio of the indecent.

They claim to?
Or is this fact?

[SkinnyPupp]

You have to dig through a lot of anti-Trump nonsense for some reason when researching this story (seriously does EVERYTHING have to be about fucking Trump?), but the Turkish claim they have audio of him being killed. That being said, Turkish media is completely government controlled, so you can't count on them for unbiased reporting (can you count on anyone really?)

I don't see anyone claiming to have heard it with their own ears, and I don't see it out there on 'mainstream internet' at least.

FWIW Trump himself is quoted as saying the tape is "probably" legitimate, and they have asked the Turkish for a copy.

[iwantaskyline]

It's a Saudi consulate in Turkey, they (Turkish government) 100% have it bugged.

[welfare]

Why won't they release the audio?

[CRS]

Originally Posted by welfare

Why won't they release the audio?

Probably the same reason why Trump won't release his taxes.

[GS8]

At least Elizabeth Warren released her DNA ancestry results.

[RRxtar]

Originally Posted by welfare

Why won't they release the audio?

a bargaining chip has no value once played

[welfare]

All i know is if i was hell bent on proving someone did something and i had the only material evidence in my possession, i probably wouldn't still be sitting on it more than two weeks later.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by welfare

Why won't they release the audio?

Because it's an ongoing criminal investigation.

[Adorkami]

Wouldn't be surprised if Turkey was doing all of this posturing in an attempt to get some form of bribe not to release the evidence it has. Otherwise I think they would of released it right away if there was proof. Didn't they say he recorded a portion of it on his apple watch that was sent to the phone his fiance had as well as a cloud server?

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by Adorkami

Wouldn't be surprised if Turkey was doing all of this posturing in an attempt to get some form of bribe not to release the evidence it has. Otherwise I think they would of released it right away if there was proof. Didn't they say he recorded a portion of it on his apple watch that was sent to the phone his fiance had as well as a cloud server?

The apple watch stuff is BS. They just don't want to announce to the world they bug foreign embassies.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/w...dismember.html

Although several Turkish officials have described the audio recordings or other evidence related to Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance in the consulate, all have declined to disclose how the material was obtained. Some recordings or other evidence may have come from intercepted communications or audio surveillance that the Turkish government is unwilling to acknowledge for fear of compromising intelligence sources or revealing violations of international law.

[Mikoyan]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

The apple watch stuff is BS. They just don't want to announce to the world they bug foreign embassies.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/w...dismember.html

No country wants to admit to it, as they all do it.

There's reports that the Saudis repainted every wall in the consulate just before the Turkish investigators when in.

[welfare]

Originally Posted by Manic!

Because it's an ongoing criminal investigation.

The media seem to already have their minds made up though.

[Badhobz]

A lot of countries off people daily, these idiots are obviously new to the game. Look at that Chinese gangster guy who was held up in crystal mall for a while. China played nice and pretended they wouldn't execute him upon extradition, but now he died mysteriously in prison from cancer. Yeah sure buddy...they were literally feeding him posion every day.

How about that Russian general they stabbed with an umbrella. Shit like this is rampant

These idiots are just stupid. Private jet hit squad ? Bonesaw? In the consulte ? Amateurs. more money than brains

[whitev70r]

As a vocal dissident under heavy watch from Saudi government, why was he so dumb to go into the Saudi consulate in the first place?

[Teriyaki]

^. Yea, they complicated things way too much if their intent was for quick execution.
So perhaps there is more to the story, you don't send 15 men to kidnap one man, or kill one man. Maybe they wanted to send a message to the world.

[welfare]

I thought the 15 man hit squad story was debunked.
So many theories floating around with no evidence yet provided.

Wouldn't seem to make much sense for the prince to order a hit where it's commonly known is surveiled.

I think the two main questions are:
Was khashoggi murdered?
And if so, did the prince have prior knowledge?

So far there is just as much evidence against as there is for.
That I'm aware of anyways.

[SkinnyPupp]

Expect the suspects to start disappearing off the face of the planet any time now

[Bouncing Bettys]

With the reports of lack of video of him leaving, the flat out denial by the Saudis, the clean up crew being flown in, the cleaning supplies ordered, and so on, this had the almost comical makings of the botched and brutal executions of the Romanov family by the Bolshevik communists.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by welfare

I thought the 15 man hit squad story was debunked.
So many theories floating around with no evidence yet provided.

Wouldn't seem to make much sense for the prince to order a hit where it's commonly known is surveiled.

I think the two main questions are:
Was khashoggi murdered?
And if so, did the prince have prior knowledge?

So far there is just as much evidence against as there is for.
That I'm aware of anyways.

15 man hit squad has not been debunked in fact one of the 15 has died in a car accident.

If Khashoggi was not murdered where is he? He entered the building but never came out.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/saudi-...ffic-accident/