Hot water systems

[underscore]

I don't know what the specs of our old tank were (and it was EOL anyways) but it ran out pretty quickly. Running the shower for 20-25 mins would empty it.

Plus my kids will be teenagers during the life of this thing so it seemed like good forward thinking lol.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by Jmac

Normally a hydronic heating system will be a closed loop system treated with molybdenum or glycol, so it's kind of weird to see one running off of untreated domestic water (open loop?). I hesitate to think of how fouled the coil would be after several years of untreated water.

Uh, I'm pretty sure they're talking about tankless domestic water heating you know for sinks and showers, not recirculating home heating water systems.

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by Great68

Uh, I'm pretty sure they're talking about tankless domestic water heating you know for sinks and showers, not recirculating home heating water systems.

Yes, correct.

Re: Running out of water.

With a family of 4, say two adults, 2 kids, the dish washer going, kids bathing and all that stuff, you can run out of water pretty quickly. Having kids who will grow into teenagers in a matter of time, like in underscore's case, that hot water is going to be gone in a flash.

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by Great68

Uh, I'm pretty sure they're talking about tankless domestic water heating you know for sinks and showers, not recirculating home heating water systems.

This would be the hydronic heating part. Maybe I misinterpreted it to mean using domestic water to heat it (CSA allows for it, so it can be done).

Originally Posted by Hakkaboy

My costs also include some repairs and additional plumbing to our stupid tiny air handler that uses hot water to heat the coils, so your installed cost will probably be less.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Yes, correct.

Re: Running out of water.

With a family of 4, say two adults, 2 kids, the dish washer going, kids bathing and all that stuff, you can run out of water pretty quickly. Having kids who will grow into teenagers in a matter of time, like in underscore's case, that hot water is going to be gone in a flash.

You know I grew up in a family of 4, my parents have a 40 gallon gas fired tank and we never had an issue running out of hot water. Even with consecutive morning showers by everyone in the house. That being said, natural gas tanks have faster recovery than electric.

I have a 40 gallon electric tank at my own house now, the only time I've ever used all the hot water is when the wife has filled the bathtub to the overflow drain (it's a really deep tub). Normally for the kid we only fill it up less than 1/2 way.

[cafe22]

Originally Posted by underscore

In our basement there's direct access to a few inches of exterior wall above the foundation so running a new exhaust line isn't an issue, that was done for our furnace too. I'd forgotten about the sealed exhaust system on the tankless which is a plus since there's less risk of CO.

As I've never dealt with a tank failure (knock on wood since the one down there now is 11 years old) is it a slow leak or do they start just dumping water everywhere? That'll be a factor for me too since the furnace is right beside it and all the home theatre stuff is right through the wall beside it.

It usually just starts to leak without notice. Does your hot water tank have a catch basin? If not, then you should consider one if you plan to replace it.

Also consider getting a smart water sensor for an added piece of mind cause chances are you're not going to check on your hot water tank daily.

https://www.amazon.ca/D-Link-Battery...42&s=hi&sr=1-4

[Great68]

Another thing I realised today that's nice about a traditional tank.
My power went out for about 3 hours today, I was still able to have a hot shave and shower during that time.
You can't do that with an instant heater, even if it's gas fired it still needs power to work.

[Hakkaboy]

Originally Posted by Jmac

This would be the hydronic heating part. Maybe I misinterpreted it to mean using domestic water to heat it (CSA allows for it, so it can be done).

You're 100% correct, my hot water tank supplies both domestic hot water and hydronic heating for the central air.

It does look like an open system, and the original company that produced it went bankrupt so I was having problems trying to find a replacement tank in a pinch.

We replaced it with the tankless because I figured it might be bit better than a traditional tank in terms of bacteria growth? I was supposed to use the shutoff valve(s) to stop the water going to the air handler during the summer but I forgot to, oh well.

I would've wanted to replace it altogether with a "normal" furnace, but the air handler is sandwiched in a tiny ass spot that finding a solution for that was an even bigger challenge.

Anyways, one other (small) benefit of tankless is that you do gain space as the unit hangs on a wall. So now my closet where the tank was located can now be used to dump more junk in lol

[HKS PWR]

Originally Posted by Great68

Another thing I realised today that's nice about a traditional tank.
My power went out for about 3 hours today, I was still able to have a hot shave and shower during that time.
You can't do that with an instant heater, even if it's gas fired it still needs power to work.

A battery backup used for home computers is more than enough to keep a tankless hot water heater going for hours.

[HKS PWR]

Originally Posted by Hakkaboy

When I use hot water during the pump schedule, it comes on almost in the same time as regular hot water tank. When it is outside the schedule, it will be slower and noticeably so. It is even slower than units without a re-circulation feature. Sometimes, it does not even come on at all. I think this is due to some of my faucets being "green", so it does not meet the minimum flow rate for turning on the tankless unit

Check the settings.
Factory minimum flow rate to ignite/fire up a Rinnai (and more tankless water heaters) is around 0.4 Gallon/minute for temperature of 120F or lower. As your Rinnai is set up with the water-to-air heat exchange for your air handler/heating system, the temperature setting will be turned up to 140F to properly heat the home which, by default will change the minimum flow rate required to fire up to around 1.0 gallon/minute (as a safety feature). I suspect the installer didn't change the minimum flow rate back to 0.4 gallon/minute.

Originally Posted by Hakkaboy

As for efficiency, I can not speak to it as we installed it before moving in. From looking at my hydro bill, it does seem lower than "comparable homes nearby", but unfortunately it does not list the historical records of the previous owner. I'm not sure if the efficiency will ever justify an extra ~$5K of costs amortized over a 15 year period, so I wouldn't do it for only that reason. My unit has a warranty for 15 years and expected life up to 20, I think. My costs also include some repairs and additional plumbing to our stupid tiny air handler that uses hot water to heat the coils, so your installed cost will probably be less.

Not only is the upfront cost around triple of a traditional hot water tank replacement, you have to factor in the yearly servicing recommended by the manufacturer. That's easily $300/year! It's impossible for a homeowner to save that much in natural gas.
FYI that 15 year warranty probably only covers the heat exchanger.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by HKS PWR

A battery backup used for home computers is more than enough to keep a tankless hot water heater going for hours.

A) Only for gas fired units

B) So another piece of equipment to maintain and spend money on, UPS batteries need to be replaced every few years.

So much higher initial cost, plus ongoing maintenance costs, to basically avoid the inconvenience of "using up all the hot water" and gain maybe a slight efficiency increase.

Maybe it's worth it for some people, not for me.

[bcrdukes]

I think it's just easier to say that tankless systems are money pits with no end in sight, and that a majority of the population should stick to a normal hot water tank. I'm inching back to just getting a hot water tank instead of a tankless. The next person who buys my place could give zero fucks about it.

[underscore]

Why would it be a money pit? Maybe if you pick some super fancy one but otherwise it costs the same as the 2 hot water tanks it replaces.

Originally Posted by Great68

B) So another piece of equipment to maintain and spend money on, UPS batteries need to be replaced every few years.

You don't need a dedicated UPS for it, if you need hot water just take the one from your computer to run it briefly.

[Hakkaboy]

Money pit? Here's the annual maintenance required:

YouTube

There are also other videos that's about 8-10 mins that details in length about the hardest part, which is running the vinegar/descaler thru an external recirculation pump

As I mentioned in my previous post, only you can determine if there is any value in not running out of hot water or worrying about a leaking tank. If it has never happened to you, then there is no value and not worth the premium.

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by Hakkaboy

Money pit? Here's the annual maintenance required:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HklAS6Zo8ZY

There are also other videos that's about 8-10 mins that details in length about the hardest part, which is running the vinegar/descaler thru an external recirculation pump

As I mentioned in my previous post, only you can determine if there is any value in not running out of hot water or worrying about a leaking tank. If it has never happened to you, then there is no value and not worth the premium.

If you do regular flushes of your tank, you're far less likely to have issues like leaks. It's just the vast majority of people never flush their tanks.

[bcrdukes]

Sorry guys, I think I'm just getting disenfranchised with this whole idea. Every merit of a tankless system, another barrage of incremental costs and curve balls get thrown your way. I guess you non-tankless guys really stick to your guns.

I will admit that I did not know maintenance was so simple.

[bcrdukes]

Update: Getting a Rinnai Ru199iN, the same exact unit as Hakkaboy's.

I got quotes from 6 different vendors for a high output hot water tank, and the cost/difference was negligible compared to the tankless system ($200) and only one-year's warranty on parts/labour, versus the Rinnai, at 15 years for the heat exchanger etc. Losing the hot water tank frees up more space for a new hydronic air handler as well, so it all evened out. If my town house had a more simple set up, I would have stuck with a regular hot water tank for the cost savings. But because of the complicated high velocity, high output system, it made sense (for me) to go with a tankless system. I hope none of you ever end up in a home with a high velocity hydronic HVAC system.

[bcrdukes]

Update #2

Hot water tank and old air handler was removed today, and the Rinnai tankless system and new air handler are in. A big overall difference was noticable, but I am cognizant of the two different systems and brand new HVAC systems.

1. For some reason, water pressure from any of my sinks (kitchen / laundry room / washrooms) were intense to the point of not usable. Swapping to the Rinnai solved that problem.

2. Hot water previously was scorching hot, like burn your hands hot. It was hot or cold, no warm. Something wasn't right. Things are normal now.

3. Not a huge problem but the water for showering is a nice consistency. The hot water comes on quite quickly, on average, 10 seconds anywhere throughout my place.

4. Biggest difference was in the quality of heat coming from the furnace. It didn't come on as often anymore, lots of air pressure through the vents (high velocity system) and doesn't fire up as often as my previous air handler did.

5. Space - I saved a considerable amount of space in my utility room after removing the hot water tank and air handler, freeing up enough room to fit in a full three piece washroom and with more than enough room for a stackable laundry set.

Super happy so far with the tankless system. I'm glad I'm getting rid of this hot water tank rental to Reliance. New AC goes in tomorrow.

[Hakkaboy]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Update #2

Hot water tank and old air handler was removed today, and the Rinnai tankless system and new air handler are in. A big overall difference was noticable, but I am cognizant of the two different systems and brand new HVAC systems.

1. For some reason, water pressure from any of my sinks (kitchen / laundry room / washrooms) were intense to the point of not usable. Swapping to the Rinnai solved that problem.

2. Hot water previously was scorching hot, like burn your hands hot. It was hot or cold, no warm. Something wasn't right. Things are normal now.

3. Not a huge problem but the water for showering is a nice consistency. The hot water comes on quite quickly, on average, 10 seconds anywhere throughout my place.

4. Biggest difference was in the quality of heat coming from the furnace. It didn't come on as often anymore, lots of air pressure through the vents (high velocity system) and doesn't fire up as often as my previous air handler did.

5. Space - I saved a considerable amount of space in my utility room after removing the hot water tank and air handler, freeing up enough room to fit in a full three piece washroom and with more than enough room for a stackable laundry set.

Super happy so far with the tankless system. I'm glad I'm getting rid of this hot water tank rental to Reliance. New AC goes in tomorrow.

That's cool and everything, but can you take a hot shower in the dark when they power goes out? Cuz apparently that's super important

BTW, how big is your air handler? Do you have a pic?

[bcrdukes]

I've got an Airmax 50e high velocity hydronic air handler. It's pretty small (I'll post a pic in a bit.) The HVAC system at my place is a high velocity system, so my options were very limited.

And yes, taking a shower when the power is out is the highest of my priorities!

[Kilinim]

I'm thinking about getting a new 50 gallon hot water tank. Any recommendations on where to look?

[bcrdukes]

A number of years ago, I replaced a hot water tank and furnace through Papa's Plumbing and had a good experience, the price was not bad compared to the competitors. Having said that, another Revscene member tried to contact them and they didn't want to do the job and didn't get back to him lol

YMMV

[bcrdukes]

@Hakkaboy