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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Hey guys, I have a couple of questions for the Asian members of RS (that's roughly 95% of our member base, isn't it? :P). I searched a bit but didn't find anything very useful.
First off, are there more Cantonese speakers in the GVA than Mandarin? From what I've read it seems there are more Cantonese speakers, although the number of Mandarin speakers is on the rise.
Also, from what I've read, Cantonese is mostly spoken in Hong Kong and some parts of Southern China whereas Mandarin is spoken in the rest of China. Is this true? Is the influx of Mainland Chinese immigrants the reason why the number of Mandarin speakers in Vancouver is on the rise?
I was also wondering if Cantonese and Mandarin are similar in some respects. For example, can someone who is fluent in Cantonese understand and converse with someone who is fluent in Mandarin?
Thanks in advance for anyone that can help in answering these questions!
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Hey guys, I have a couple of questions for the Asian members of RS (that's roughly 95% of our member base, isn't it? :P). I searched a bit but didn't find anything very useful.
First off, are there more Cantonese speakers in the GVA than Mandarin? From what I've read it seems there are more Cantonese speakers, although the number of Mandarin speakers is on the rise. yes
Also, from what I've read, Cantonese is mostly spoken in Hong Kong and some parts of Southern China whereas Mandarin is spoken in the rest of China. Is this true? yes Is the influx of Mainland Chinese immigrants the reason why the number of Mandarin speakers in Vancouver is on the rise? yes
I was also wondering if Cantonese and Mandarin are similar in some respects. For example, can someone who is fluent in Cantonese understand and converse with someone who is fluent in Mandarin? Cantonese and Mandarin are the same when in written form, and there are some similar words when spoken, but usually fluent Cantonese speakers won't understand fluent Mandarin speakers (and vice versa) if they don't have prior knowledge of the other language
Thanks in advance for anyone that can help in answering these questions!
answered
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bad example by him, but there are many dialects in chinese (ie toisan, etc). written form of mandarin is similar to cantonese but not exactly the same. they have certain ways of saying things that simply sound stupid in cantonese (as in, no one says things that way).
being fluent in cantonese does not mean you can understand mandarin or vice versa.
In reality Mandarin = Chinese. Cantonese is merely a dialect. The only reason why Cantonese stands out from the rest of the dialects around China is because Hong Kong, a Cantonese speaking city, is a financial powerhouse.
The greatest influx of HKer is before the 1997 hand-over. After that, less are coming and more are heading back, so u see a decline in young HKer while more and more Mainlanders.
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I believe there was a time when mainlanders weren't allowed to leave the country and China did its introverted thing for awhile, which is kinda the exact opposite of what was going on in HK. So Mandarin was largely irrelevant here until the last 10 yrs or so.
Would Spanish to French be a good analogy for Cantonese to Mandarin speaking-wise?
I always considered the difference to be that cantonese is less formal and uses more slangs than mandarin. Mandarin speakers pretty much speak like the written form, but imo cantonese can be quite different from the written language. An example is with english; you don't speak to each other formally as if you were writing a paper. I'm guessing somewhere people are speaking formal cantonese though.
But then again I'm CBC and can't read/write chinese if my life depended on it
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"Would Spanish to French be a good analogy for Cantonese to Mandarin speaking-wise?"
Probably not a good analogy. Cantonese is mainly spoken and is far more causal. While you may have Spanish and French novels, most of the words used in a Cantonese conversation actually would not appear in literature or newspaper. In other words, Cantonese in a written form becomes more like standard Chinese (which Mandarin speakers will be able to read).
Slightly off topic and to make the matter more complicated, as far as written Chinese is concerned, there are two variations. Simplified Chinese is used in China while traditional Chinese is used in Hong Kong and Taiwan.
Cantonese is a dialect, and there are many dialects spoke in China. For example, Hokkien is widely spoken by many Chinese in Southeast Asia. Shanghainese and Teochew are two other common dialects. One would find the older generation feeling more at home using their dialect.
Standard Mandarin is the official language in China and one of the 6 official languages of the United Nations.
Cantonese because of its popular Hong Kong media influence (film, TV and music), is also widely spoken especially by many overseas Chinese.
Many mainland Chinese like to learn Cantonese to understand the pop culture better appearing more hip. Hong Kong Chinese on the other hand, feel the need to learn Mandarin to do business in China. I would think Cantonese is probably more difficult to learn.
Last edited by observer; 07-13-2010 at 03:47 AM.
Reason: adding answer to goo3's question
To be honest with you guys I never understood the Chinese hate between HKrs and mainlanders and what-not. Why all the hate? It seems that everyone looks down on mainlanders but in all honesty, from an outside perspective, there is no distinction. Is it related back to history? Excuse my ignorance but I've always never understood.
Keep in mind too that MOST Cantonese speakers write in TRADIONAL chinese, whereas MOST mandarin speakers write in SIMPLIFIED Chinese Posted via RS Mobile
To be honest with you guys I never understood the Chinese hate between HKrs and mainlanders and what-not. Why all the hate? It seems that everyone looks down on mainlanders but in all honesty, from an outside perspective, there is no distinction. Is it related back to history? Excuse my ignorance but I've always never understood.
EDIT: Now I'm home and I can express myself
DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT INTEND TO INSULT OR HURT ANY MAINLAND CHINESE, IT'S JUST MY TAKE ON THE ISSUE ON HAND
Here's my take...
Spoiler!
The cultures are different, as much as both "Mainlanders" and "Hong Kongers" (not Hongers) are Chinese, but beyond that, the mindset is completely different. The common "western properties" that Hong Kong got as a result of the British occupation is obviously not inherent in China. Many things that the western world views as unacceptable is deemed common, part of the culture, and acceptable in China.
Examples: Spitting, squatting with your legs wide open, speaking loudly, budging, being even more ignorant and self-centered than people in Hong Kong, and quite a few others I can't seem to pin point right now.
In addition, the years of seclusion China was in led many to grow afraid of mainland China - not of its people, but fear of the ways they do things there. Stories get passed down where one small crime leads to execution, complete government domination, and general shady shenanigans. To add more injury to insult so to say, the June 4th Tiananmen Square events didn't exactly put a positive light on the Chinese government as well. The sheer brutality used against free speech, which is a basic right in Hong Kong, scared many shitless on that very day. Needless to say, the lack of development in China led the mainlanders to be viewed as "香下佬" (wrong characters?), which translates to something equivalent to "rednecks" or "villagers of the past", used in a manner similar to how the Whites called the Chinese "Chinamen" during the days of the CPR.
As a result of the brutality people perceived in China at the time, many in Hong Kong were scared of the magical date - July 1st, 1997 - the day when the British leaves Hong Kong and hands it back to China. Many families left HK as a result, including my own, immigrating to places with a western way of life such as Canada, the States, New Zealand, and so forth. Needless to say, as much as this fear was totally unnecessary, many went back to Hong Kong as '97 came and went without political problems.
Then the problems came as the HK SAR (special administrative region) government decided to push out the "自由行" (free wandering) policy, whereby permits/visas were no longer required for mainlanders to visit Hong Kong. Suddenly, floods of mainlanders came to Hong Kong to shop/hang around, and ABUSE THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM. (ie: get pregnant, during the 9th month they go to HK to freeride the health system and to gain automatic citizenship) Keep in mind that most who do this are dirt poor, thus becoming a further social burden. Soon, the term "自由行" become a derogatory term for referring to mainlanders roaming the streets without any purpose, only to create a social burden.
This influx of mainlanders wasn't exactly helpful in improving their image as well, as HK forums started to overflow with random candid images of squatting people, horridly dressed (ie: the classic chinese lady wearing sandals and stockings), and news stories of people pissing in water fountains, shitting in washroom sinks at Ocean Park (NO JOKE) etc...
But this polarizing effect isn't solely the fault of the Mainland Chinese as well, the British Occupation and the success of Hong Kong as a financial powerhouse had a great effect on the mindset of Hong Kong people. We feel superior to the Mainland Chinese, just because our education is English based, and we are the center of Asia's financial system. The media coverage of weird events also had an interesting effect as well, with bias worsening at an exponential rate. With the amount of media outlets in Hong Kong, most pointed problems to the Mainlanders with pure speculation, adding to the alienation and polarization issue.
Oh yeah, differences in language also plays a huge role. HUMANS ARE NATURALLY DETERRED TO DIFFERENCES
Needless to say, they are changing, conforming more and more to western social standards. It's not their fault to begin with, as China did start off as a pretty poor purely communist country with conditions similar to those of North Korea right now.
AGAIN, I don't mean to offend, but it's just the way I look at the issue.
In reality Mandarin = Chinese. Cantonese is merely a dialect. The only reason why Cantonese stands out from the rest of the dialects around China is because Hong Kong, a Cantonese speaking city, is a financial powerhouse.
The greatest influx of HKer is before the 1997 hand-over. After that, less are coming and more are heading back, so u see a decline in young HKer while more and more Mainlanders.
Mandarin does not "equal" chinese, it is a chinese dialect like any other. it (putonghua) is the one chosen by the communists to be the 'official' language of the PRC when they took control. Start here if you want to learn more.
I am actually quite shocked at how many people still speak cantonese in southern china, from obviously Shenzhen all the way up through guangzhou, and even to guilin. You can get by pretty well in guang dong province only speaking cantonese I think.
To be honest with you guys I never understood the Chinese hate between HKrs and mainlanders and what-not. Why all the hate? It seems that everyone looks down on mainlanders but in all honesty, from an outside perspective, there is no distinction. Is it related back to history? Excuse my ignorance but I've always never understood.
It's like calling someone from New Zealand and Australian, or calling a Canadian an American redneck. People don't want to be grouped with them. Not going to bash any group of people here, but let's just say that most people in Mainland China have only begun learning how to be middle class citizens. They do... things... differently from other Chinese people from HK or Taiwan, etc.
I'm sure other people can describe it in a less sensitive way that might be easier to understand.
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Those are what people call "accents" , depending where you're from.
