[ToyotaPowah]

Hey guys, I have a couple of questions for the Asian members of RS (that's roughly 95% of our member base, isn't it? :P). I searched a bit but didn't find anything very useful.

First off, are there more Cantonese speakers in the GVA than Mandarin? From what I've read it seems there are more Cantonese speakers, although the number of Mandarin speakers is on the rise.

Also, from what I've read, Cantonese is mostly spoken in Hong Kong and some parts of Southern China whereas Mandarin is spoken in the rest of China. Is this true? Is the influx of Mainland Chinese immigrants the reason why the number of Mandarin speakers in Vancouver is on the rise?

I was also wondering if Cantonese and Mandarin are similar in some respects. For example, can someone who is fluent in Cantonese understand and converse with someone who is fluent in Mandarin?

Thanks in advance for anyone that can help in answering these questions!

[Greenstoner]

Mostly YES to your questions

[RacePace]

Hey guys, I have a couple of questions for the Asian members of RS (that's roughly 95% of our member base, isn't it? :P). I searched a bit but didn't find anything very useful.

First off, are there more Cantonese speakers in the GVA than Mandarin? From what I've read it seems there are more Cantonese speakers, although the number of Mandarin speakers is on the rise. yes

Also, from what I've read, Cantonese is mostly spoken in Hong Kong and some parts of Southern China whereas Mandarin is spoken in the rest of China. Is this true? yes Is the influx of Mainland Chinese immigrants the reason why the number of Mandarin speakers in Vancouver is on the rise? yes

I was also wondering if Cantonese and Mandarin are similar in some respects. For example, can someone who is fluent in Cantonese understand and converse with someone who is fluent in Mandarin?
Cantonese and Mandarin are the same when in written form, and there are some similar words when spoken, but usually fluent Cantonese speakers won't understand fluent Mandarin speakers (and vice versa) if they don't have prior knowledge of the other language

Thanks in advance for anyone that can help in answering these questions!


answered

[insomniac]

EDIT: ^Illuminate beat me to it

[oldsnail]

edit

[skyxx]

^ Those aren't dialects. :lol Those are what people call "accents" , depending where you're from.

[spoon.ek9]

bad example by him, but there are many dialects in chinese (ie toisan, etc). written form of mandarin is similar to cantonese but not exactly the same. they have certain ways of saying things that simply sound stupid in cantonese (as in, no one says things that way).

being fluent in cantonese does not mean you can understand mandarin or vice versa.

[1exotic]

I'm African American and speak 11 languages

how dare you not include me!

[ToyotaPowah]

Thanks for the quick answers guys!

I'm African American and speak 11 languages

how dare you not include me!

Haha, sorry exotic.. I'll be more careful with my choice of words next time :D





:troll:

[q0192837465]

In reality Mandarin = Chinese. Cantonese is merely a dialect. The only reason why Cantonese stands out from the rest of the dialects around China is because Hong Kong, a Cantonese speaking city, is a financial powerhouse.

The greatest influx of HKer is before the 1997 hand-over. After that, less are coming and more are heading back, so u see a decline in young HKer while more and more Mainlanders.

[haymura]

I was also wondering if Cantonese and Mandarin are similar in some respects.


They both dont give any respects to anyone else....

(*OH SHIT... i see the RS beatdown crew in my front yard. gotta run!):eek5r:

[Presto]

We just hate the mainlanders. The disdain for them is fairly universal, too.

[Eastwood]

Why is there conflict from RS members about mainlanders compared to people from Hong Kong?

[Spooling]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Mandarin

[Vale46Rossi]

I came in Here hoping for a math question, I guess I m not needed anymore :(

[goo3]

I believe there was a time when mainlanders weren't allowed to leave the country and China did its introverted thing for awhile, which is kinda the exact opposite of what was going on in HK. So Mandarin was largely irrelevant here until the last 10 yrs or so.

Would Spanish to French be a good analogy for Cantonese to Mandarin speaking-wise?

[Ikkaku]

I always considered the difference to be that cantonese is less formal and uses more slangs than mandarin. Mandarin speakers pretty much speak like the written form, but imo cantonese can be quite different from the written language. An example is with english; you don't speak to each other formally as if you were writing a paper. I'm guessing somewhere people are speaking formal cantonese though.

But then again I'm CBC and can't read/write chinese if my life depended on it :lol

[observer]

"Would Spanish to French be a good analogy for Cantonese to Mandarin speaking-wise?"

Probably not a good analogy. Cantonese is mainly spoken and is far more causal. While you may have Spanish and French novels, most of the words used in a Cantonese conversation actually would not appear in literature or newspaper. In other words, Cantonese in a written form becomes more like standard Chinese (which Mandarin speakers will be able to read).

Slightly off topic and to make the matter more complicated, as far as written Chinese is concerned, there are two variations. Simplified Chinese is used in China while traditional Chinese is used in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Cantonese is a dialect, and there are many dialects spoke in China. For example, Hokkien is widely spoken by many Chinese in Southeast Asia. Shanghainese and Teochew are two other common dialects. One would find the older generation feeling more at home using their dialect.

Standard Mandarin is the official language in China and one of the 6 official languages of the United Nations.

Cantonese because of its popular Hong Kong media influence (film, TV and music), is also widely spoken especially by many overseas Chinese.

Many mainland Chinese like to learn Cantonese to understand the pop culture better appearing more hip. Hong Kong Chinese on the other hand, feel the need to learn Mandarin to do business in China. I would think Cantonese is probably more difficult to learn.

[Shun Izaki]

They both dont give any respects to anyone else....

(*OH SHIT... i see the RS beatdown crew in my front yard. gotta run!):eek5r:

wasn't me.

We just hate the mainlanders. The disdain for them is fairly universal, too.

i hate mainlanders with a passion... but i'll stilll bang cute mainlander girls... no problem with that... as long as it's not asian_xl surprise.

I came in Here hoping for a math question, I guess I m not needed anymore :(

I honestly thought that was what it was about LOL

[FerrariEnzo]

In reality Mandarin = Chinese.

Chinese isnt a language.
its like asking an east indian to speak in indian... (haha i quoted this from Russell Peters)

[Kaiten]

To be honest with you guys I never understood the Chinese hate between HKrs and mainlanders and what-not. Why all the hate? It seems that everyone looks down on mainlanders but in all honesty, from an outside perspective, there is no distinction. Is it related back to history? Excuse my ignorance but I've always never understood.

[CP.AR]

Keep in mind too that MOST Cantonese speakers write in TRADIONAL chinese, whereas MOST mandarin speakers write in SIMPLIFIED Chinese
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[CP.AR]

To be honest with you guys I never understood the Chinese hate between HKrs and mainlanders and what-not. Why all the hate? It seems that everyone looks down on mainlanders but in all honesty, from an outside perspective, there is no distinction. Is it related back to history? Excuse my ignorance but I've always never understood.

EDIT: Now I'm home and I can express myself

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT INTEND TO INSULT OR HURT ANY MAINLAND CHINESE, IT'S JUST MY TAKE ON THE ISSUE ON HAND

Here's my take...

The cultures are different, as much as both "Mainlanders" and "Hong Kongers" (not Hongers) are Chinese, but beyond that, the mindset is completely different. The common "western properties" that Hong Kong got as a result of the British occupation is obviously not inherent in China. Many things that the western world views as unacceptable is deemed common, part of the culture, and acceptable in China.
Examples: Spitting, squatting with your legs wide open, speaking loudly, budging, being even more ignorant and self-centered than people in Hong Kong, and quite a few others I can't seem to pin point right now.

In addition, the years of seclusion China was in led many to grow afraid of mainland China - not of its people, but fear of the ways they do things there. Stories get passed down where one small crime leads to execution, complete government domination, and general shady shenanigans. To add more injury to insult so to say, the June 4th Tiananmen Square events didn't exactly put a positive light on the Chinese government as well. The sheer brutality used against free speech, which is a basic right in Hong Kong, scared many shitless on that very day. Needless to say, the lack of development in China led the mainlanders to be viewed as "香下佬" (wrong characters?), which translates to something equivalent to "rednecks" or "villagers of the past", used in a manner similar to how the Whites called the Chinese "Chinamen" during the days of the CPR.

As a result of the brutality people perceived in China at the time, many in Hong Kong were scared of the magical date - July 1st, 1997 - the day when the British leaves Hong Kong and hands it back to China. Many families left HK as a result, including my own, immigrating to places with a western way of life such as Canada, the States, New Zealand, and so forth. Needless to say, as much as this fear was totally unnecessary, many went back to Hong Kong as '97 came and went without political problems.

Then the problems came as the HK SAR (special administrative region) government decided to push out the "自由行" (free wandering) policy, whereby permits/visas were no longer required for mainlanders to visit Hong Kong. Suddenly, floods of mainlanders came to Hong Kong to shop/hang around, and ABUSE THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM. (ie: get pregnant, during the 9th month they go to HK to freeride the health system and to gain automatic citizenship) Keep in mind that most who do this are dirt poor, thus becoming a further social burden. Soon, the term "自由行" become a derogatory term for referring to mainlanders roaming the streets without any purpose, only to create a social burden.

This influx of mainlanders wasn't exactly helpful in improving their image as well, as HK forums started to overflow with random candid images of squatting people, horridly dressed (ie: the classic chinese lady wearing sandals and stockings), and news stories of people pissing in water fountains, shitting in washroom sinks at Ocean Park (NO JOKE) etc...

But this polarizing effect isn't solely the fault of the Mainland Chinese as well, the British Occupation and the success of Hong Kong as a financial powerhouse had a great effect on the mindset of Hong Kong people. We feel superior to the Mainland Chinese, just because our education is English based, and we are the center of Asia's financial system. The media coverage of weird events also had an interesting effect as well, with bias worsening at an exponential rate. With the amount of media outlets in Hong Kong, most pointed problems to the Mainlanders with pure speculation, adding to the alienation and polarization issue.

Oh yeah, differences in language also plays a huge role. HUMANS ARE NATURALLY DETERRED TO DIFFERENCES

Needless to say, they are changing, conforming more and more to western social standards. It's not their fault to begin with, as China did start off as a pretty poor purely communist country with conditions similar to those of North Korea right now.

AGAIN, I don't mean to offend, but it's just the way I look at the issue.

[SkinnyPupp]

In reality Mandarin = Chinese. Cantonese is merely a dialect. The only reason why Cantonese stands out from the rest of the dialects around China is because Hong Kong, a Cantonese speaking city, is a financial powerhouse.

The greatest influx of HKer is before the 1997 hand-over. After that, less are coming and more are heading back, so u see a decline in young HKer while more and more Mainlanders.
Mandarin does not "equal" chinese, it is a chinese dialect like any other. it (putonghua) is the one chosen by the communists to be the 'official' language of the PRC when they took control. Start her (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Mandarin)e if you want to learn more.

I am actually quite shocked at how many people still speak cantonese in southern china, from obviously Shenzhen all the way up through guangzhou, and even to guilin. You can get by pretty well in guang dong province only speaking cantonese I think.

[SkinnyPupp]

To be honest with you guys I never understood the Chinese hate between HKrs and mainlanders and what-not. Why all the hate? It seems that everyone looks down on mainlanders but in all honesty, from an outside perspective, there is no distinction. Is it related back to history? Excuse my ignorance but I've always never understood.
It's like calling someone from New Zealand and Australian, or calling a Canadian an American redneck. People don't want to be grouped with them. Not going to bash any group of people here, but let's just say that most people in Mainland China have only begun learning how to be middle class citizens. They do... things... differently from other Chinese people from HK or Taiwan, etc.

I'm sure other people can describe it in a less sensitive way that might be easier to understand.

[dachinesedude]

To be honest with you guys I never understood the Chinese hate between HKrs and mainlanders and what-not. Why all the hate? It seems that everyone looks down on mainlanders but in all honesty, from an outside perspective, there is no distinction. Is it related back to history? Excuse my ignorance but I've always never understood.

I'm cantonese and i hate mainlanders with a passion, here's some of my reasons:

- they spit, pick their noses, piss and take off their shoes and socks in public, thats just fucking disgusting
- sneeze without covering up
- think they're right when they're clearly wrong (car accidents are big ones)
- loud and obnoxious
- no manners whatsoever (words like please and thank you dont process in their brains)

you can say these things can appear in other races too, or that its their 'culture' (fucked up beliefs if thats the case), i dont give, ive seen it with my own eyes

ive personally never seen people that satisfy all these other than mainlanders

oh and ask HK people why they dont go to their own Disneyland

[RacePace]

Well, if Hong Kong was never ruled by the British, people from Hong Kong would probably have the same mannerisms to be honest.

[Gumby]

I'm cantonese and i hate mainlanders with a passion, here's some of my reasons:

- they spit, pick their noses, piss and take off their shoes and socks in public, thats just fucking disgusting
- sneeze without covering up
- think they're right when they're clearly wrong (car accidents are big ones)
- loud and obnoxious
- no manners whatsoever (words like please and thank you dont process in their brains)

you can say these things can appear in other races too, or that its their 'culture' (fucked up beliefs if thats the case), i dont give, ive seen it with my own eyes

ive personally never seen people that satisfy all these other than mainlanders

oh and ask HK people why they dont go to their own Disneyland
Agreed with all of the above. I guess in China, that's what they're used to. But here in North America, we line up to wait our turns, some of us have manners, etc.

[SkinnyPupp]

Well, if Hong Kong was never ruled by the British, people from Hong Kong would probably have the same mannerisms to be honest.
Your point being...? In an alternate reality, maybe up is down and down is up!!! Imagine how fucked up that would be!

[unit]

I'm cantonese and i hate mainlanders with a passion, here's some of my reasons:

- they spit, pick their noses, piss and take off their shoes and socks in public, thats just fucking disgusting
- sneeze without covering up
- think they're right when they're clearly wrong (car accidents are big ones)
- loud and obnoxious
- no manners whatsoever (words like please and thank you dont process in their brains)

you can say these things can appear in other races too, or that its their 'culture' (fucked up beliefs if thats the case), i dont give, ive seen it with my own eyes

ive personally never seen people that satisfy all these other than mainlanders

oh and ask HK people why they dont go to their own Disneyland

all of that is so damn true.

[v.Rossi]

how about chu zao?(sp?) does anyone here speak it?

i really don't want to be the only one =\

[Greenstoner]

I'm cantonese and i hate mainlanders with a passion, here's some of my reasons:

- they spit, pick their noses, piss and take off their shoes and socks in public, thats just fucking disgusting
- sneeze without covering up
- think they're right when they're clearly wrong (car accidents are big ones)
- loud and obnoxious
- no manners whatsoever (words like please and thank you dont process in their brains)

you can say these things can appear in other races too, or that its their 'culture' (fucked up beliefs if thats the case), i dont give, ive seen it with my own eyes

ive personally never seen people that satisfy all these other than mainlanders

oh and ask HK people why they dont go to their own Disneyland


Honestly, the bold part applies to a lot of HKer too. Im from Taiwan, im not defending China or Hong Kong.. But seeing the comments like this pisses me off. Why are we bashing each other when we all from the same root ? You can dislike someone but "hate" is a bit extreme to descirbe. I felt pretty embarrassed being a Chinese when hearing comments like this.

[gilly]

its not just mainlanders but more and more koreans are moving over here to GVRD.

[Kaiten]

^ Interesting. Thanks for the explanations. Feel free to chime in on your reasoning Captain Picard I'd like to hear if your point of view is any different.

I can relate to how I wouldn't want to be considered an American, being Canadian, Skinny Pup, but it's not like I think all Americans are uncivilized. I think I have a little better understanding of the situation though. I also see what Greenstoner means as well; I'm Japanese in origin but I feel connected to all Asians. I grew up in Kelowna where there weren't enough Asians to be categorizing and alienating. I had friends from Taiwan and China and Korea and I felt we could relate to each other just being Asian, which is why I didn't understand the distinguishing and the hate towards mainlanders.

I will admit I've been annoyed with people who hack and spit on the street randomly but I never thought about where it was that they were from. They could very well have been from mainland China but to be honest I would never know.

I suppose this all has to do with the large number of Asians here in the lower mainland, and how some of them ARE rude, and that people don't want to be associated with them. Is that the root to all the hate? Maybe I would think the same if I was raised in Van, or HK or wherever.

** Also, sorry to thread jack ***

[Ikkaku]

Like a few people said, if you look further back a few generations, all Chinese are the same. It's because of the different style of education that provides the noticable difference between mainlanders, Hong Kong'ers and Taiwanese.

Perhaps the rudeness comes from the fact that they have to be rude and pushy to survive in China. If you're a weak person in character, you will get pushed around and will get nowhere. A lot of the mainlanders you see here are the business people or the ones who are successful. There is a lot competition in China, and there is also a lot of deprivation. Remember, not everybody has a chance to get to higher levels of education over there. It really is a dog-eat-dog world.

With that said though, certain groups of mainlanders are getting much more rich than those from HK. It's a fact that all HK'er must accept.

[Girl]

Hey guys, I have a couple of questions for the Asian members of RS (that's roughly 95% of our member base, isn't it? :P). I searched a bit but didn't find anything very useful.

First off, are there more Cantonese speakers in the GVA than Mandarin? From what I've read it seems there are more Cantonese speakers, although the number of Mandarin speakers is on the rise.

Also, from what I've read, Cantonese is mostly spoken in Hong Kong and some parts of Southern China whereas Mandarin is spoken in the rest of China. Is this true?
Is the influx of Mainland Chinese immigrants the reason why the number of Mandarin speakers in Vancouver is on the rise?

I was also wondering if Cantonese and Mandarin are similar in some respects. For example, can someone who is fluent in Cantonese understand and converse with someone who is fluent in Mandarin?

Thanks in advance for anyone that can help in answering these questions!

1. That's more than a COUPLE of questions darling. :P


Responses:

1. Yes, over the years there have been more Cantonese speakers as compared to Mandarin speakers in the GVRD.

2. Cantonese WAS spoken mainly in southern china and Hong Kong. Cantonese is a dialect predominantly spoken in GuanDong a southern province in China. GuanDong Province has been one of the most prosperous provinces in China in the past 2 decades and is responsible for over 10% of the country's economic gain (mainly due to the fact that it's on the coast for major trading). As well Hong Kong is a main hub/port/finance station in Asia and with HK reverting back to China in 97, HK was a gateways to the rest of the world. Of course there's a major shift and mandarin is now more predominant as China gains in power.

3. The increase in Mandarin speakers in the GVRD is due to 2 main factors. Yes, one of them would be the influx of immigrants from China as well as the contributing populace from Taiwan. The other factor is that China is one of the largest emerging markets in world economy. Most businesses look towards there. Even looking at Tourism trends in Vancouver, they targeted the Mexicans 3-4 years ago and now you might find more Chinese brochures from Tourism Vancouver or the Canadian Tourism Commission.

4. Like most languages, Cantonese and Mandarin have the same basis. It really depends on the person. Although most Cantonese speakers in the GVRD would most likely be able to converse with Mandarin speakers from Taiwan more so than somebody from China due to the fact that most Vancouverites are exposed to Taiwan Mandarin over the past decade in terms of media exposure and businesses.

Mandarin in China varies because of the many dialects that exist in such a vast country. You can have 3 people speakign the same language and have it all sound very very different depending on the location. Think accents, Aussie, Irish, American Southern, Canadian Western, etc.

I've worked for an Australian company and I never knew what the CEO was saying when he came to our office.


Now I hope that helps your homework.

[CP.AR]

^ Interesting. Thanks for the explanations. Feel free to chime in on your reasoning Captain Picard I'd like to hear if your point of view is any different.

I can relate to how I wouldn't want to be considered an American, being Canadian, Skinny Pup, but it's not like I think all Americans are uncivilized. I think I have a little better understanding of the situation though. I also see what Greenstoner means as well; I'm Japanese in origin but I feel connected to all Asians. I grew up in Kelowna where there weren't enough Asians to be categorizing and alienating. I had friends from Taiwan and China and Korea and I felt we could relate to each other just being Asian, which is why I didn't understand the distinguishing and the hate towards mainlanders.

I will admit I've been annoyed with people who hack and spit on the street randomly but I never thought about where it was that they were from. They could very well have been from mainland China but to be honest I would never know.

I suppose this all has to do with the large number of Asians here in the lower mainland, and how some of them ARE rude, and that people don't want to be associated with them. Is that the root to all the hate? Maybe I would think the same if I was raised in Van, or HK or wherever.

** Also, sorry to thread jack ***

I edited my post on the previous page, it now has my viewpoint/perspective on this

[ToyotaPowah]

Thanks for all the responses guys & gal. The insight should prove valuable in determining how to spend some marketing dollars at my company.

[Presto]

Honestly, the bold part applies to a lot of HKer too. Im from Taiwan, im not defending China or Hong Kong.. But seeing the comments like this pisses me off. Why are we bashing each other when we all from the same root ? You can dislike someone but "hate" is a bit extreme to descirbe. I felt pretty embarrassed being a Chinese when hearing comments like this.

I went to Taiwan this past summer, and they all hate mainlanders too. The only people that like mainlanders are the ones taking their money. Oh wait, they just like the money. They still hate mainlanders. Taiwan rocks, though. People are really nice there.

[drunkrussian]

yo man, if u ever need to know the exact % of the russian population in vancouver, please let me know. Like the chinese, the russians keep such a list of demographics handy at all times.

[Greenstoner]

I went to Taiwan this past summer, and they all hate mainlanders too. The only people that like mainlanders are the ones taking their money. Oh wait, they just like the money. They still hate mainlanders. Taiwan rocks, though. People are really nice there.

So ? I never said anything about taiwanese NOT hating the mainlander...

my point is its a shame that Chinese dislike each other to a point it becomes HATE.

[CP.AR]

Well the thing between Taiwan and Mainland China is a completely different story...

[VancouverG88]

Excellent insights Captain Picard. I recommend everyone who has not done so already to go back one page and read his updated post.

[yellowpower]

Most cantonese speakers are less conservative And more open to the ways of the white people, where as mandarin speakers only socialiaze withing their own mandarin circle and other mandarin speakers. Those mandarin people are almost always from taiwan and hold deep pride i being twanger -,- thinkin they r the shit.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Gumby]

Excellent insights Captain Picard. I recommend everyone who has not done so already to go back one page and read his updated post.
Thanks to your post, I went back to read Captain Picard's post. Well said, Picard!

[twitchyzero]

Well, if Hong Kong was never ruled by the British, people from Hong Kong would probably have the same mannerisms to be honest.

agreed..and taiwan would still be a backwards ass place if they were never ruled by japan for 60 years.


Perhaps the rudeness comes from the fact that they have to be rude and pushy to survive in China. If you're a weak person in character, you will get pushed around and will get nowhere. A lot of the mainlanders you see here are the business people or the ones who are successful. There is a lot competition in China, and there is also a lot of deprivation. Remember, not everybody has a chance to get to higher levels of education over there. It really is a dog-eat-dog world.

good point.