[tiger_handheld]

Yes or No

Vote. Voting ends August 5th.

For your reading pleasure:


http://www.revscene.net/forums/vancouver-off-topic-current-events/645750-hst-revisited.html

http://www.revscene.net/forums/vancouver-off-topic-current-events/618050-hst-going-cost-us-more.html

http://www.revscene.net/forums/vancouver-off-topic-current-events/618433-true-were-getting-$200-hst-tax-return-coming-july-1st-4.html


(http://www.revscene.net/forums/vancouver-off-topic-current-events/645750-hst-revisited.html)

[krazynuck]

is the decrease to 10% confirmed though as I thought it is just proposed??

The one thing that is sad to see is the vandalism to the signs....(pro and against)

I saw on the news about the signs on the island be changed as well as the signs on the way to UBC i see have black writing on them

[xpl0sive]

fuck HST. and if it gets "extinguished" they better get rid of the SST as well. I am tired of paying 12% on used cars bought from Private Parties

[tiger_handheld]

is the decrease to 10% confirmed though as I thought it is just proposed??

The one thing that is sad to see is the vandalism to the signs....(pro and against)

I saw on the news about the signs on the island be changed as well as the signs on the way to UBC i see have black writing on them

It's official. The Feds "made it the law"

[taylor192]

If you're a low income earner, you want the HST gone cause it is costing you more.

If you're a mid-high income earner, you want the HST to stay cause once its gone, income tax will have to rise to offset the $1.6B we'll have to give back to the feds.

[q0192837465]

My mom has a business so HST benefits us. So yay for HST.

[xxxrsxxx]

The issue that I have is that Falcon mentioned that if PST/GST is brought back, he is not going to guarantee that previously PST exempt products will remain that way. Thus if he removes those exemptions, we're just back at paying 12% again.....

[Tegra_Devil]

doesnt the HST not go down to 10% until 2013 or something like that if voted in?

[gars]

If you're a low income earner, you want the HST gone cause it is costing you more.

If you're a mid-high income earner, you want the HST to stay cause once its gone, income tax will have to rise to offset the $1.6B we'll have to give back to the feds.

That's only temporary though. I guess for a low income earner - you can only really look at the short term. But HST's benefits won't really show up until a few years down the road.

[DsZ24]

I wouldn't mind the hst if all the companies that are benifitting from it will pass their savings along to the consumer. Dunno if that'll happen tho.

[Culverin]

If it is a free market and very competitive, then yes, eventually those savings will trickle down. But if it's a company where there are a lot of fat cats and benefits (ie. government, crown corporations), then probably not so much.

[JF.]

So what's the pros/cons between the hst and the gst/pst? Beside the percentage.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[SFUguy]

it's a class war

bourgeoisie wants all the burden on the proletariat.

wake up people.

[toyota86]

imo voting either option sucks. people still end up paying more tax compared to pre hst.

if hst does get extinguished and the gst and pst sytem is reinstated. like someone said earlier, the goverment pretty much made it clear that the exemptions under the old system will not come back if the gst and pst is brought back. so, what that means is that everything might still end up being tax gst and pst combined at 12%. This whole exercise ends up being a vote on what to name our 12% tax.

if hst stays, well obviously big businesses benefit. poor people pay more tax. no more exemptions. trickle down effect is a troll concept. the reduction to 10% is a few years away and there are no guarantees how long it will remain at 10%.

either way, the average citizen still loses because tax payer are going to get the bill for the goverment to do studies and research, implement the hst, the cost of making this referendum happen, all the logistics, manpower, and all other associated costs.

those sneaky bastards.

[iEatClams]

If it is a free market and very competitive, then yes, eventually those savings will trickle down. But if it's a company where there are a lot of fat cats and benefits (ie. government, crown corporations), then probably not so much.

Actually, its more the big companies that prevent corporations.

Take, for example Loblaws, which owns:
Extra Foods, No Frills, Superstore, T & T. etc.

you're really shopping at the same store since it's not an actual competitor.

Or Best Buy and Futureshop. Same owners.

We need to prevent oligopolies or monopolistic behaviours.

Edit : Sorry - prevent competition , not corporations

[chunk_stir]

if hst stays, well obviously big businesses benefit. poor people pay more tax. no more exemptions. trickle down effect is a troll concept.


the statement: "poor people pay more tax." is a bit misleading and short-sighted I think. Technically, EVERYONE is paying more tax. The HST doesn't "pick on" any income level because it's a consumer-tax. In fact, because it's a consumer tax, those who spend more will actually pay more tax. Certainly, those with tighter budgets will feel the increased tax more at the immediate change. But how much more? If a household lives off of $1000/mo (ie. for food, restaurants, entertainment, gas, etc) and now has to pay 5% more on that entire $1000, that is only $50 more a month.. It is unlikely that the entire amount will now be taxed 12% vs 7% before.

So if a higher-income household spends $5000 a month, they are paying 5x more tax in the form of HST than the household that spends $1000/mo.

As for trickle-down effect...
The HST does make business accounting a lot more efficient (and hence operations), and technically, that should bring better selection/better pricing fro the end-consumer. To what degree that ends up benefitting the end-user is to be determined.

[crazyazn]

In theory, HST would be better...but realistically it's unlikely the benefits businesses receive will trickle down to the average consumer.

[xpl0sive]

In theory, HST would be better...but realistically it's unlikely the benefits businesses receive will trickle down to the average consumer.

communism works in theory as well. HST is a cash grab plain and simple. now the government is making it seem like the people are the bad guys trying to get rid of the HST. saying things like it will cost us more in the end and so on... The only reason it will cost us more is because the government brought in the HST without ever getting a public opinion about it. if this was to happen in europe, entire cities would shut down in protest... but here in Canada, we just bend over and take it...

[toyota86]

the statement: "poor people pay more tax." is a bit misleading and short-sighted I think. Technically, EVERYONE is paying more tax. The HST doesn't "pick on" any income level because it's a consumer-tax. In fact, because it's a consumer tax, those who spend more will actually pay more tax. Certainly, those with tighter budgets will feel the increased tax more at the immediate change. But how much more? If a household lives off of $1000/mo (ie. for food, restaurants, entertainment, gas, etc) and now has to pay 5% more on that entire $1000, that is only $50 more a month.. It is unlikely that the entire amount will now be taxed 12% vs 7% before.

So if a higher-income household spends $5000 a month, they are paying 5x more tax in the form of HST than the household that spends $1000/mo.

As for trickle-down effect...
The HST does make business accounting a lot more efficient (and hence operations), and technically, that should bring better selection/better pricing fro the end-consumer. To what degree that ends up benefitting the end-user is to be determined.

sorry you are right. EVERYONE pays more tax. my original point is that they shouldn't messed with the old system that worked. the 10% reduction should have been alongside the hst when it was first introduced and not used as a trump card to get votes now. having the 10% right from the start would have made the transition smoother and less people would have been opposed of it. the extinguish hst movement wouldn't have the traction it does now. pov from a simpleton.

[Prolowtone]

Even if the HST was introduced at 10% you are still paying more for alot of things. People would have still been against it especially if they had a damn vote on it in the first place. I agree however that they should have left the old system in place.

[RRxtar]

the province needs to bring in a certain amount of money. whether they do that jointly thru HST, soley thru PST, or thru income tax increases, they are going to get it.

going thru the hastle of overturning the HST is not going to save you a penny outside of the short term. infact, it may cost more even straight from the get go.

[ImportPsycho]

It's official. The Feds "made it the law"

anti-hst ppl make it sound like there are lot of things that can happen from now to 2013 which would make 10% HST not happen
so i don't know what to belieave...

[darkfroggy]

Yes, because getting rid of the HST means that you'll pay less taxes... *cough cough*.

The government will ALWAYS find a way to raise more money. They can do this through a myriad of ways such as raising transit prices, environmental taxes, income taxes, etc.

Getting rid of the HST will creates more headaches than it solves, since the government will have to do tons of paperwork and backtracking.

[crazyazn]

Seriously, why the fuck are they letting people vote NOW when they didn't let people do it when they brought in the HST?

We are in a lose-lose situation...we are the losers regardless if it's GST+PST or HST.

I don't know what they are trying to accomplish with this vote:fulloffuck: It seems like a total waste of money to me

[Nightwalker]

I sent in my ballot. Keep the HST.

[Jer3]

say for a new home buyer, which of the options is the better of the two evils?

[JesseBlue]

Where is the option to extinguish pst all together?

[Mr.C]

Nope. Let's be real. Taxes are needed to pay for all the cool stuff we have. Plus, it's simpler to understand.

[K-Dub]

I sent in my ballot. Keep the HST.
+1

[tiger_handheld]

I wonder how good of a sample RS will be for what BC'ers think ....
it's a close one :) ..

The one thing that grinds my gears about hst, is the trickle down effect. I know it will not happen - BC Liquor board perfect example. There are way too many monopolies/oligopolies in BC.

To the people that think competition will give us increased sales and discounts on goods. Think about it this way for a second. You are Superstore and have 30% of the marketshare. Safeway also has 30%, IGA also has 30% and mom and pop shops have 10%. Are you really concerned about the mom and pop shops? No; because you receive a larger volume discount and can compete on price any day of the week. Are you really going to pass up the savings from HST to the consumer to gain maybe 1-2% of market share from Safeway and or IGA? I think not. Why not keep the savings for yourself, so ALL three of the powerhouses increase their level of profits? This is very similar to how Coke and Pepsi conduct business. It's very cartel like. Maintain 30% of marketshare in BC , while having increased profits. It's a WIN-WIN for Superstore and other large grocers.

This is my understanding. If someone wants to correct me - i'm all ears :)

[lowside67]

As a small business owner, HST is a good thing for me and my business. Not only does it give me the ability to write the full HST amount off on business inputs that I could only previously write GST off on, but the process of bookkeeping and remitting is MUCH easier with one single tax than two taxes administered by two separate agencies with different methods. I can think about how much work we went through to transition to HST, and I can only imagine how it would be in a LARGE company with a complicated billing structure - the internal costs to return to GST/PST accounting would be absolutely ludicrous.

On a personal level, maybe I'm not that sensitive, but I dont really feel that I pay that much more, or at least it hasnt made a difference in my spending habits and consumption requirements. I would be a big fan of 10% HST simply because it makes calculating tax that much easier - I love round numbers! :D

I voted to keep HST.

[Gridlock]

I think the whole thing has been so mismanaged, its unbelievable.

I have no idea what to think regarding the next provincial election. The liberals need some time off-10 years seems to be a party's max before they get stupid, and unfortunately, I don't want the NDP back at the helm. I don't like their policies.

Oh sure, the tax structure will change, and the poor will rejoice, I'm sure the hospitals will improve and such, but at the end of the day, they won't be able to afford it.

And so we will not be able to afford it.

Anyone know off hand where Falcon says the previous exemptions won't be back under the PST system? That's information some people should know before voting, yeah?

[UFO]

If the move to HST included all the previous PST exemptions, I don't think anybody would have complained. All of the business efficiency costs would still be realized. But then there would have been no additional tax income generated, which the BC government will never admit, but is one of the big reasons of the switch to HST.


To the people that think competition will give us increased sales and discounts on goods. Think about it this way for a second. You are Superstore and have 30% of the marketshare. Safeway also has 30%, IGA also has 30% and mom and pop shops have 10%. Are you really concerned about the mom and pop shops? No; because you receive a larger volume discount and can compete on price any day of the week. Are you really going to pass up the savings from HST to the consumer to gain maybe 1-2% of market share from Safeway and or IGA? I think not. Why not keep the savings for yourself, so ALL three of the powerhouses increase their level of profits? This is very similar to how Coke and Pepsi conduct business. It's very cartel like. Maintain 30% of marketshare in BC , while having increased profits. It's a WIN-WIN for Superstore and other large grocers.


This is the exact way I see things as well too, why I am so pessimistic about HST saving consumers money in the long term.

As a small business owner, HST is a good thing for me and my business. Not only does it give me the ability to write the full HST amount off on business inputs that I could only previously write GST off on, but the process of bookkeeping and remitting is MUCH easier with one single tax than two taxes administered by two separate agencies with different methods.

I fully understand and appreciate the simplicity that HST brings, and its benefit to business owners. That is why I don't think abolishing HST is the way to go.

On a personal level, lowering the HST to 10% is on the road to offsetting the increases I am paying due to less tax exempted items/services. I know I am still paying more at the end of the day with HST, but am ok knowing that it helps business run more efficiently and may help with our economy. Just don't tell me that I'm going to be saving money with HST though.

[tiger_handheld]

As a small business owner, HST is a good thing for me and my business. Not only does it give me the ability to write the full HST amount off on business inputs that I could only previously write GST off on, but the process of bookkeeping and remitting is MUCH easier with one single tax than two taxes administered by two separate agencies with different methods. I can think about how much work we went through to transition to HST, and I can only imagine how it would be in a LARGE company with a complicated billing structure - the internal costs to return to GST/PST accounting would be absolutely ludicrous.


As an accountant for a medium sized business (10+ million in annual sales), the book keeping process for GST and PST was not very complicated. From a bookkeeping perspective, GST&PST required two reports to run from the accounting software, whereas HST only requires one. Having an organized accounting system, will at most, save you 15-20mins by using HST. For us to return to GST & PST would be as simple as selecting GP instead of H2/3/5 for the tax code. It's all about how your system is setup. Larger the corporation, better the systems, easier the transition.

With that being said, I agree with you on the fact that business do get the extra ITC's; however, as a business owner, did you pass on the savings to your customers by the way of decreased prices? My company did not and neither did any of our suppliers.

[twitchyzero]

fuck HST. and if it gets "extinguished" they better get rid of the SST as well. I am tired of paying 12% on used cars bought from Private Parties

this...I hope they really bring back the exemptions. Double-dipping taxes on 2nd hand item is FULL OF SHIT.

[gars]

With that being said, I agree with you on the fact that business do get the extra ITC's; however, as a business owner, did you pass on the savings to your customers by the way of decreased prices? My company did not and neither did any of our suppliers.

Are you telling me, that if the average company always tried to keep a profit margin of 25% (just as an example), but now with HST, they have a profit margin of 27%, - are they ALWAYS going to stay at that new margin regardless?

Or maybe for some businesses - the extra 2% profit margin means they can hire one more person - or expand their business. HST isn't always just about the final $$ amount to the consumer - it's about an overall healthier economy which is beneficial to everyone.

[teggy604]

If you own a business, would you pass the savings to the consumer? i think consumers would be on the bottom of their priority list.

[UFO]

Are you telling me, that if the average company always tried to keep a profit margin of 25% (just as an example), but now with HST, they have a profit margin of 27%, - are they ALWAYS going to stay at that new margin regardless?

Or maybe for some businesses - the extra 2% profit margin means they can hire one more person - or expand their business. HST isn't always just about the final $$ amount to the consumer - it's about an overall healthier economy which is beneficial to everyone.

What is marketed to the voting public is that the extra things we pay additional tax on NOW, will come back in the FUTURE as a cost reduction and actually save consumers money, but it will take time for this to materialize. I don't buy this at all, neither do many people. It is also marketed that it will help streamline business operations, help job creation, etc etc...

I agree that HST will help the economy in the big picture, and that everyone will eventually benefit from it but do not believe at the end of the day it will be saving the consumer any money. But the taglines used to sell and push onto the general public is pure marketting BS.

[oldsnail]

yes, i bought 3 cars since hst, all privately.

the extra tax cost me an extra 4k

[tiger_handheld]

Are you telling me, that if the average company always tried to keep a profit margin of 25% (just as an example), but now with HST, they have a profit margin of 27%, - are they ALWAYS going to stay at that new margin regardless?

Or maybe for some businesses - the extra 2% profit margin means they can hire one more person - or expand their business. HST isn't always just about the final $$ amount to the consumer - it's about an overall healthier economy which is beneficial to everyone.

One thing the recession has proved is you can get same amount of output with the same or lesser amount of labor. So I doubt the average company will be looking to hire staff from the extra profits.

If the company is in expansion mode, they will need a hell of a lot more than the profit generated from HST to expand.

I believe the HST and its benefits in theory, but I will only believe the practical side when it's happening. It's been 1 year since the HST was implemented, I have seen nothing but cost increases. That is 4 quarter of ITC's for companies to pass down to customers. Even lets say each Q, there is 7k in extra ITC because of the HST, that should equal out at least a cent or two drop. The HST impact on fuel alone is enough to kill any savings that can be passed down to the consumer...

Again this is how I see it. Feel free to disagree :).

[Gridlock]

The only way to achieve "savings" from HST is a cascade drop in the taxation of inputs.

Those with a financial background, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Businesses everywhere, under the old system, were in theory paying PST and ultimately passing through this cost to the final customer, although in an indirect manner.

So for these mysterious "savings" to show up as reduced pricing, you would have to have multiple levels of inputs, all being taxed PST, so therefore there are several steps of PST that can be eliminated by moving from a regressive to a progressive tax policy.

That implies several levels of inputs, all originating in BC for savings to be found.

[gars]

Again this is how I see it. Feel free to disagree :).

We can argue all we want about "what ifs", but I guess we can never predict what each business would actually do. So are you going to vote yes then?

[goo3]

43% want GSP+PST back. So why is that better than choosing HST that goes down to 10% over the next few years?

[91LS-VTak]

^^^
Just because the government has promised to lower the HST to 10%, it doesn't mean that they won't change it back to 12% the next day. Or raise the carbon tax by 2%.

I'm voting to extinguish the HST because I want to go back to when I only had to pay GST on some items, not 12% on everything i buy.

[taylor192]

In theory, HST would be better...but realistically it's unlikely the benefits businesses receive will trickle down to the average consumer.

communism works in theory as well. HST is a cash grab plain and simple. now the government is making it seem like the people are the bad guys trying to get rid of the HST. saying things like it will cost us more in the end and so on... The only reason it will cost us more is because the government brought in the HST without ever getting a public opinion about it. if this was to happen in europe, entire cities would shut down in protest... but here in Canada, we just bend over and take it...You do know that most of Europe uses a VAT which is similar to our HST, right? You wouldn't just be talking out your ass right? :p

[RacingMetro92]

Just because the government has promised to lower the HST to 10%, it doesn't mean that they won't change it back to 12% the next day.


This. I don't know the specifics of the HST bill, but if isn't legislated that the HST will drop if it stays, what makes me think that the government won't drop the HST down to 10%? Like the BC Liberals have proved, they can promise to do something/not do something and go back on their word.

[taylor192]

Yes, because getting rid of the HST means that you'll pay less taxes... *cough cough*.

The government will ALWAYS find a way to raise more money. They can do this through a myriad of ways such as raising transit prices, environmental taxes, income taxes, etc.

Getting rid of the HST will creates more headaches than it solves, since the government will have to do tons of paperwork and backtracking.Agreed. Getting rid of the HST will cost us money that will have to be made up somehow. I fully expect income tax to raise to make up the difference.

If income tax goes up it means we all pay more, while the HST means only those who spend are taxed. As a saver, I am for punishing spenders, if they can afford to buy something, they can afford to pay thier fair share of tax.

[taylor192]

I wonder how good of a sample RS will be for what BC'ers think ....
it's a close one :) ..

The one thing that grinds my gears about hst, is the trickle down effect. I know it will not happen - BC Liquor board perfect example. There are way too many monopolies/oligopolies in BC.

We are already seeing a trickle down effect in booze prices. Look around, have you noticed how many restaurants have drink specials? Or that some of the big beer companies have reduced their prices, labatt for instance is cheaper at liquor stores and cold beer and wine stores.

Its cause consumers are tapped out, and now that we have to pay more tax to eat out, we're not eating out as much, so prices have to come down to bring us back. I think its awesome, and want to see it continue.

Now before some asshat says we're punishing restaurants, the restaurant industry has expanded more than any other industry in the last decade, so I don't feel bad if a few suffer and lower prices or close.

[iEatClams]

You do know that most of Europe uses a VAT which is similar to our HST, right? You wouldn't just be talking out your ass right? :p

Not to mention ontario and the atlantic provinces and other major countries in the world have HST or something similar.

[Tapioca]

I have not seen one lawn sign, etc. in support of keeping the HST.

My fear is that people will vote "Yes" simply out of their hate for the Liberal government. I voted "No", but I think the "Yes" side will win. Like taylor192, I think us middle-income earners (e.g. people who make 35-80K/year) will be paying higher income taxes. But who gives a shit about that when I save a few bucks on my meal at "Chain restaurant-X" or when I get my hair did?

Consumption taxes FTW. At least you can choose to consume.

[Graeme S]

Time once was I was opposed to the HST. Looking back, I think it was a miz of a reaction to how it was introduced and my active dislike of the Liberals as led by Campbell. Now, on the other hand, I'm all for it. I read an interesting article awhile ago that said on average, upper-middle income people pay a lower proportional tax rate than lower income people. Why? They have the opportunity to take more writeoffs. I'm not saying consumption taxes will make everything lovey-dovey perfect, but I'd be much happier with a higher consumption tax (15%? A nice round number and still lower than places like Europe) and a greater tax exemption for low-income people (ie: moving the start of income taxes to the poverty line--something like $18-20k).

I'm voting to keep the HST which, if nothing else, will cancel out my mom's vote.
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[taylor192]

I have not seen one lawn sign, etc. in support of keeping the HST. There are a couple big signs in Kits, yet I am absolutely disgusted by the anti hst signs on million dollar homes for sale in Kits. If you can afford a million dollar home, you can afford to pay your fair share of tax. My income tax should not subsidize people buying million dollar homes and not paying their fair share.

[taylor192]

this...I hope they really bring back the exemptions. Double-dipping taxes on 2nd hand item is FULL OF SHIT. I hate this too. Only businesses selling second hand goods should be subject to tax, cause they are offering a service to resell it. Personal private second hand sales should not be taxed as the tax has already been paid.

[Meowjin]

There are a couple big signs in Kits, yet I am absolutely disgusted by the anti hst signs on million dollar homes for sale in Kits. If you can afford a million dollar home, you can afford to pay your fair share of tax. My income tax should not subsidize people buying million dollar homes and not paying their fair share.

Kits was a poor area before the yuppies made it rich.

[Meowjin]

I have not seen one lawn sign, etc. in support of keeping the HST.

My fear is that people will vote "Yes" simply out of their hate for the Liberal government. I voted "No", but I think the "Yes" side will win. Like taylor192, I think us middle-income earners (e.g. people who make 35-80K/year) will be paying higher income taxes. But who gives a shit about that when I save a few bucks on my meal at "Chain restaurant-X" or when I get my hair did?

Consumption taxes FTW. At least you can choose to consume.

Consumption taxes worked so well for greece, UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal.

[taylor192]

Consumption taxes worked so well for greece, UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal. Socialist programs promoting lazy citizens that feed at the government trough worked so well too :p

[misteranswer]

Consumption taxes worked so well for greece, UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal.

Imagine if they didn't have them. They'd be as bad as Sweden and Norway.

[Meowjin]

Socialist programs promoting lazy citizens that feed at the government trough worked so well too :p

yeah, except In greece you work 16 hours a day for 60 euro's a day while the property (especially athens) is owned by foreign investors.

US citizens per citizen are 46k in debt.

Greece per citizen is 44k in debt.

Greece is the testing ground.

[taylor192]

yeah, except In greece you work 16 hours a day for 60 euro's a day while the property (especially athens) is owned by foreign investors.
Greek people barely work 6 hours a day, and that's part of the problem. A bunch of lazy bottom feeders that expect someone else to work hard and pay for their services.

[Meowjin]

Greek people barely work 6 hours a day, and that's part of the problem. A bunch of lazy bottom feeders that expect someone else to work hard and pay for their services.

Where the fuck are you getting your numbers from dude? There is a large number of greeks leaving the country. My cousins (who have dual citizenship) just arrived in canada and are working 2 jobs, 12 hour days. If you honestly think that greek people work 6 hours a day, and are fucking lazy, go there and work and try to find a job.

http://coveringdelta.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/greece-working-hours.jpg

CHARTS

http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/21/labor-market-workforce-lead-citizen-cx_po_0521countries.html

FORBES

[Vansterdam]

even if we bring it down, most of the stores have already jacked up their prices on most things and probably wont lower it back down once the hst goes to 10%

[Meowjin]

It's a lose lose. I think the point is if you wanna make a point that the people are in power, vote yes.

[MindBomber]

Where the fuck are you getting your numbers from dude? There is a large number of greeks leaving the country. My cousins (who have dual citizenship) just arrived in canada and are working 2 jobs, 12 hour days. If you honestly think that greek people work 6 hours a day, and are fucking lazy, go there and work and try to find a job.


The reports I've heard on the Greek debt crisis have noted similar statements to what Taylor mentioned; retirement at age 55, 40% of the population hold government jobs, 30% of the population work under the table and don't pay taxes. I don't doubt that there is a very hard working segment of the population, but there is also a powerful group of lazy union workers with a feeling of entitlement.
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[iEatClams]

Socialist programs promoting lazy citizens that feed at the government trough worked so well too :p

I wouldn't call the average Greek person lazy by any means. Many work long hours.

It's the politicians that ruined that country with poor policies. How can they pay for anything if they don't even have an efficient system for collecting tax.

From my many Greek friends and their parents, it's basically the tax evasion that screwed the country over. When some doctors and government workers don't pay tax, how can they expect to survive in the long run??

[Meowjin]

Greek politicians are the real crooks! so many scandels.

No wonder why the KKE Is getting ground in greece over the past 10 years.

Communist Party of Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece)

They have 22 seats int he greek government and 2 seats in the european parliament.

Edit: I am no way a communist or endorsing them.

[ray08]

here a youtube link that my buddy sent me about HST

YouTube - ‪Stickman Explains the HST, Honestly‬‏

check it out.

[OTG-ZR2]

I just don't like my food being taxed :(

[Tapioca]

I just don't like my food being taxed :(

Your food still isn't taxed under HST. Only prepared foods and meals are taxed.

[wingies]

if you eat out everyday, hst costs you alot of money for taxes

[misteranswer]

here a youtube link that my buddy sent me about HST

YouTube - ‪Stickman Explains the HST, Honestly‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp2Gbgq-Hoo)

check it out.

Here are some cooler videos that your buddy should watch as well

http://youtu.be/nZXu3LXNwEg

http://youtu.be/frnBgX9QRZM

[misteranswer]

if you eat out everyday, hst costs you alot of money for taxes

If you eat out every day, you must either have a pretty decent salary or just really lazy.

[Meowjin]

If you eat out every day, you must either have a pretty decent salary or just really lazy.

or busy or single.

[taylor192]

The reports I've heard on the Greek debt crisis have noted similar statements to what Taylor mentioned; retirement at age 55, 40% of the population hold government jobs, 30% of the population work under the table and don't pay taxes. I don't doubt that there is a very hard working segment of the population, but there is also a powerful group of lazy union workers with a feeling of entitlement.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Shhhhhh don't tell MajinHurricane this, he won't believe it.

[taylor192]

if you eat out everyday, hst costs you alot of money for taxes

If you eat out everyday, you can afford to pay your fair share of tax. There's no good reason prepared food should have ever been exempt from tax.

[xpl0sive]

for me, who lives on my own and am not home most of the time, eating out makes more sense than going grocery shopping. i have tried going to safeway/costco/whatever spend $100+ on food for most of it to just go bad in my fridge. If I spend $20-$30/day on eating out, that $100 will last me almost a full work week.

[JKam]

for me, who lives on my own and am not home most of the time, eating out makes more sense than going grocery shopping. i have tried going to safeway/costco/whatever spend $100+ on food for most of it to just go bad in my fridge. If I spend $20-$30/day on eating out, that $100 will last me almost a full work week.

You should try cooking a ton of food on one day and then freezing it for the week. That's what I do and I save a ton of money.

I just spend Sunday morning doing all my cooking haha.

edit: I guess it won't work for you since you're not home most of the time.

[Meowjin]

Shhhhhh don't tell MajinHurricane this, he won't believe it.

The myth of the (http://www.marxist.com/myth-of-lazy-greek-workers.htm)

Again, not a supporter of the marxist party or extreme leftism. But for every source that says "lazy" I can find one that say's misunderstood.

[taylor192]

for me, who lives on my own and am not home most of the time, eating out makes more sense than going grocery shopping. i have tried going to safeway/costco/whatever spend $100+ on food for most of it to just go bad in my fridge. If I spend $20-$30/day on eating out, that $100 will last me almost a full work week.
No-one is criticizing someone for the choices they make - if you want to be out and about all the time and eat out too, then go for it! Yet my taxes shouldn't subsidize your ability not to pay your fair share of tax while being out and about and eating out.

[Meowjin]

I don't know why your concerned about other people's taxes when the government has a poor track record of mismanaged funds and how it spends it's money.

[taylor192]

The myth of the (http://www.marxist.com/myth-of-lazy-greek-workers.htm)

Again, not a supporter of the marxist party or extreme leftism. But for every source that says "lazy" I can find one that say's misunderstood.
From the article:

In Greece, the average gross monthly wage, including social security and taxes, is 803 euros [about £700 or US$1063]

And what about these fat Greek pensions? According to the GSEE Labour Institution, the average pension in Greece is 750 euros per months [£650 pounds or US$990]

Perhaps the author should do some basic math and realize Greeks are retiring on 90% of what they make. That's a pretty fat pension!

Perhaps the author should consider the costs of living in each country are different, as rent/gas/food is also higher in many of the countries with higher salaries.

All this article did was reinforce the lazy greek myth, cause the author was too lazy even to do his homework.

[taylor192]

I don't know why your concerned about other people's taxes when the government has a poor track record of mismanaged funds and how it spends it's money.

Cause I cannot stop the government from wasting money - yet I can ask them not to waste MY money.

[7seven]

I'm voting NO to not get rid of the HST. I work in the film industry and it's great for business and starting to pay off already, this fall three productions with over $100 million dollar budgets will be filming in Vancouver. When the HST came into effect, we had several TV productions locate to Vancouver with the HST as the deciding factor even given the high CDN dollar.

With the HST, productions can full recoup the taxes paid on supplies used to build sets, catering, wardrobe, vehicle/equipment rental, etc... if that benefit is lost and Vancouver will lose productions.

Also as the HST is a consumption tax, I have no issue with paying a tiny bit more when I go out to eat, etc...

[JKam]

I'm also voting no to keep the HST. I don't want increased taxes on my income when a lot of my money goes to savings. I'll pay taxes on what I spend, not what I earn.

The only time I noticed the HST was when I was working retail and people would bitch about paying more when they were paying the same amount. (12% PST/GST vs 12% HST on electronics)

[Meowjin]

From the article:





Perhaps the author should do some basic math and realize Greeks are retiring on 90% of what they make. That's a pretty fat pension!

Perhaps the author should consider the costs of living in each country are different, as rent/gas/food is also higher in many of the countries with higher salaries.

All this article did was reinforce the lazy greek myth, cause the author was too lazy even to do his homework.

lol have you ever lived in greece?

A frappe is 4 euro, a pita is 6 euro. You would starve in greece on a greek salary. You don't know real work until you work 14 hour days like most greeks due just to get by.

[taylor192]

lol have you ever lived in greece?

A frappe is 4 euro, a pita is 6 euro. You would starve in greece on a greek salary. You don't know real work until you work 14 hour days like most greeks due just to get by.

Rent is cheap in Greece compared to the rest of Europe. Food prices are about the same as Britian, yet rent is nowhere close.

Besides, like someone has already pointed out, 40% of Greeks working for unions wouldn't starve, and the Greeks retired at 55yo wouldn't starve. The rest are doing something wrong not to have the same entitlements as this massive group.

[Vulgate]

Voting to keep the HST.

[quasi]

The only time I noticed the HST was when I was working retail and people would bitch about paying more when they were paying the same amount. (12% PST/GST vs 12% HST on electronics)

Funny thing is they are actually paying less on electronics, the tax isn't getting taxed anymore.

[Meowjin]

Rent is cheap in Greece compared to the rest of Europe. Food prices are about the same as Britian, yet rent is nowhere close.

Besides, like someone has already pointed out, 40% of Greeks working for unions wouldn't starve, and the Greeks retired at 55yo wouldn't starve. The rest are doing something wrong not to have the same entitlements as this massive group.

I'm sorry your insane.

You have no idea whats going on greece. I have family there and I have friends EMIGRATING from the country. You are painting some pretty picture that the news outlets are painting you. Do you believe everything they say? Who owns most of the world media? Ted turner, and ruport murdoch.

They are rioting because they don't want to be THE IMF's whore. They want to be their own independant nation.

[Meowjin]

YouTube - ‪Rome fears spread of 'Athens Syndrome'‬‏

[xpl0sive]

I'm sorry your insane.

You have no idea whats going on greece. I have family there and I have friends EMIGRATING from the country. You are painting some pretty picture that the news outlets are painting you. Do you believe everything they say? Who owns most of the world media? Ted turner, and ruport murdoch.

They are rioting because they don't want to be THE IMF's whore. They want to be their own independant nation.

lol dont waste your time with that clown. he argues just for the sake of arguing

[taylor192]

I'm sorry your insane.

You have no idea whats going on greece. I have family there and I have friends EMIGRATING from the country. You are painting some pretty picture that the news outlets are painting you.
I'm sorry you're a hypocrite.

You are the one that posted a media article about Greece's working hours, forgive me if I use the media to prove cost of living.

My best friend growing up emigrated from Greece, his father was a hard working restauranteur who was rarely home. That doesn't change the fact that 40% of Greeks work for government, and get 90% of their income in retirement 7-10 years earlier than most. What it does mean is that your family and friends aren't smart enough to secure one of these cushy well paying jobs.

They are rioting because they don't want to be THE IMF's whore. They want to be their own independant nation.
I agree with this. Germany and France do not want Greece to default cause then they take haircuts, so they keep feeding the vicious circle of Greek debt. Greece need to tell everyone to f'off, you loaned us money you knew we could not repay, so you've got to pay the consequences too.

My favourite blogger, Mike Shedlock aka Mish, has been saying this for a long time now.

[Great68]

I came to the realization that I was more pissed about how the HST was brought upon us, and the almost arbitrary classification of what food the HST is or isn't applicable on.

But at this point it's going to be too costly to go back, and I don't want any more of my tax dollars to be wasted on that so I voted no.

If we want to get back at the government for practically lying to us, then voting them out at the next election is the proper way to accomplish that.

[MindBomber]

I'm sorry your insane.

I'm sorry you're a hypocrite.


Lmfao you guys have debated with each other in off-topic to many times, it's become so well rehearsed it's hilarious.

Solving the Greek debt crisis is simple, the citizens of their country just need to recognize the seriousness of the situation like the rest of the world. Then they'll accept retirement at 65, pay taxes, and over time they can work on reducing their cash burning bureaucracy; the longer it takes for that to happen the more damage is done though, because investing in Greece is a crap shot and best right now.

It's the Americans that are a real threat to the worls economy, and we share a border with them..
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[gars]

If we want to get back at the government for practically lying to us, then voting them out at the next election is the proper way to accomplish that.

But who are we going to vote in? The NDP fucked over the province royally for years, and doesn't seem to have gotten any better over the past few years. If you're going to vote against them out of spite, there better be a better opposition in place.

[EUPHORiA1911]

It doesn't matter, as the government will find a way to get back that money. But ideally I would like HST to be gone.

[insomniac]

this thread really made my mind change about extinguishing hst lol

[impulse777]

I operate my own small business 10-15 employees avg depending on demand my business is in the trades/construction industry. I am also a new father.

2 points here on the hst.

1) In the trades... People are holding off on renovations/building or are hiring black market contractors, No contract no tax no wcb no liability just to save 12% hit on their bill/invoice I guess they could handle 5% but not 12 think how much these contractors can under cut the market. This is no joke customers are literally demanding cash jobs. It used to be the other way around where shady contractors were looking for cash jobs to avoid real tax personal & gst. This is hurting honest companys who renew their business license, Have liability and wcb plus commercial coverage on vehicles forward the hst and pay on their income. Here's the up side I save on accounting because the system is soo much smoother. :fuuuuu:

2)Just starting a family... I have 2 young kids when the hst hit I noticed it. The pst exempted most things related to young children diapers, Clothes, snacks & recreational activities now hst apply's to almost everything.

Once again I say :fuuuuu:

[taylor192]

Solving the Greek debt crisis is simple, the citizens of their country just need to recognize the seriousness of the situation like the rest of the world. Then they'll accept retirement at 65, pay taxes, and over time they can work on reducing their cash burning bureaucracy; the longer it takes for that to happen the more damage is done though, because investing in Greece is a crap shot and best right now.

Or just let Greece go bankrupt, right off the bad debts and start over. It'll suck for a couple years, yet other countries have proved that the turn around time is within 5-10 years - while paying off that debt will probably take many decades.

[UFO]

I'm voting to extinguish the HST because I want to go back to when I only had to pay GST on some items, not 12% on everything i buy.

I think a lot of people are in the same boat as you, but nobody has come out to say that the PST exemptions will be reinstated if GST/PST comes back. SO assuming that the exemptions will not come back, you are still paying 12% tax on everything you buy instead of 10% with HST (if it stays at 10%). If the previous PST exemptions are not promised, there is no benefit whatsoever in getting rid of the HST, NONE.

If we go back to GST/HST, we have to give back the $1.6B the feds gave BC for switching to HST and that will be raised through increased income taxes. It has already been stated and nobody will dispute that HST streamlines processing both for the government and for business operators, and is a draw for business and can help the economy grow.

Like others have expressed, I initially hated HST more because of how it was forced down our throats and the loss of previously PST exempt items. I have come around to realize the benefits it can provide, but understand at the end of the day that HST will not be saving me any money even if it stays at 10%. My fear is that the benefits of HST to the economy will be lost on those who have not done their own research but are still harbouring ill thoughts on how HST was rolled out and are going to vote to get rid of HST just because it is HST (ie. not using their own logic) to make a point to the Liberals, nobody wins with this scenario.

Let's face the facts, the gov. will get their money one way or another. The only thing you can do about that is to vote for the gov. you like. I do not like the Liberals, but the NDP?? uhm, yeah, no thanks been there done that. So at the end of the day, what choice do we really have. If the previous PST exemptions are not promised, there is no benefit whatsoever in getting rid of the HST.

[tiger_handheld]

Why can't they give us 12% HST , and have the previous PST exempt items, HST exempt?

What are the downsides of that?

[q0192837465]

I think a lot of people are in the same boat as you, but nobody has come out to say that the PST exemptions will be reinstated if GST/PST comes back. SO assuming that the exemptions will not come back, you are still paying 12% tax on everything you buy instead of 10% with HST (if it stays at 10%). If the previous PST exemptions are not promised, there is no benefit whatsoever in getting rid of the HST, NONE.

If we go back to GST/HST, we have to give back the $1.6B the feds gave BC for switching to HST and that will be raised through increased income taxes. It has already been stated and nobody will dispute that HST streamlines processing both for the government and for business operators, and is a draw for business and can help the economy grow.

Like others have expressed, I initially hated HST more because of how it was forced down our throats and the loss of previously PST exempt items. I have come around to realize the benefits it can provide, but understand at the end of the day that HST will not be saving me any money even if it stays at 10%. My fear is that the benefits of HST to the economy will be lost on those who have not done their own research but are still harbouring ill thoughts on how HST was rolled out and are going to vote to get rid of HST just because it is HST (ie. not using their own logic) to make a point to the Liberals, nobody wins with this scenario.

Let's face the facts, the gov. will get their money one way or another. The only thing you can do about that is to vote for the gov. you like. I do not like the Liberals, but the NDP?? uhm, yeah, no thanks been there done that. So at the end of the day, what choice do we really have. If the previous PST exemptions are not promised, there is no benefit whatsoever in getting rid of the HST.

That's exactly what one of my co-worker keep saying. He kept saying about it's a matter of principle so he'll vote yes to get rid of HST.

[Gridlock]

Because of the following:

A brief history of the HST.

The north American ecomony goes to crap. I forget names here, but someone sits Campbell down after the election, and says the deficit is going to be way worse than we previously thought.

Campbell, a person who pounded the NDP on their spending, and bookkeeping can't come out and say, oops, we goofed. Then thinks back to the offer made to Ontario for their HST-a billion+ dollars as a reward.

Now, question one: Why would the federal gov't, running in their own deficit offer provinces a billion+ dollars to merge taxes? Shutting down the PST isn't going to cost anywhere near that amount.

So, the HST comes flying in. On top of that billion dollars, there is also the opportunity to slam tax on many things previously exempt. Even more money.

So, the whole thing comes down to politics. Campbell was trying to save his ass. End on a high note. The whole HST thing dies down, he spends a year dealing with that, then 2 fucking around, and retires. The new guy has a year in the chair to make a name for him/herself. By that time, we've been paying out the pooter for 4 years.

So...here is where they can stick the HST...straight up Campbell's ass. That man did wonderful things for this province for 8 years, and after that election, started screwing the pooch.

Whenever I hear HST, I think lies, and I think bullshit. It's straight up politics. And queen Clark and her families first shit can line up next.. I can't stand the woman. And I certainly don't need her trying to buy votes with the money that I've paid in on a tax that no one supported.

Why did no one support it? Because it was all so Campbell didn't have to tell the NDP that he was just as fucking stupid as they were.

[mikemhg]

Voting Yes.

[maxxxboost]

Voting No, Keep the HST.

I have my reasons, but it is interesting reading other members reasons.

[taylor192]

That's exactly what one of my co-worker keep saying. He kept saying about it's a matter of principle so he'll vote yes to get rid of HST.

My coworkers said the same yesterday at lunch, they just want to punish the Liberals for how they brought in the HST. Then I explained that we're upper middle class incomes (software developers) and if the HST does leave a hole in the budget (which no-one can confirm, yet everyone can agree there will probably be a huge hole) it will likely be filled with higher income taxes (which again, no-one can confirm, yet everyone agrees that a return of the PST/GST hurts business so corporate taxes will not be raised, thus income taxes are the next best bet).

After that explanation you could almost cut the tension in the room with a knife. Those who voted yes were rethinking it, cause at our salary levels if they do punish income tax, we're going to feel it much worse than HST. :(

[MR_BIGGS]

Is voting no to the HST really going to punish the Liberals though?

Gordan Campbell is gone and now has a plum government job as Canada's high commissioner to Britain which is one of Canada's highest diplomatic posts.

I wonder how reflective the RS poll is relative to the BC population.

[UFO]

Is voting no to the HST really going to punish the Liberals though?



Exactly. There are many people in the population who are too ignorant to do their own research, and will vote yes just to stick it back to the Liberals for imposing the HST. The only people they will be punishing is themselves, and the province of BC.

At first I though Bill Vanderzalm was the man, sticking up for the people against HST with nothing to gain himself. Now that I understand the situation more, I really don't know what he is fighting for. We are paying more due to HST only because of the lost PST exemptions. But if GST/PST comes back and the exemptions are not, we end up paying the same or more as HST anyways.

[Greenstoner]

voting yes

[SlySi]

Voting No.
Beleive it or not.
Savings are being passed to the conusmers.


Coles Notes for the lazy (http://colinfraser.tumblr.com/post/7606225194/how-much-more-does-the-hst-cost-bc-consumers-there-is)

Actual Paper (http://www.bcbc.com/Documents/EC_20110216_Kesselman_ConsumerImpactsofBCHST.pdf)

[JesseBlue]

voted yes...

i have a feeling with HST going down...they'll try to recuperate the money somehow...so something is bound to go up...promise you it won't be services going up...

[AWDTurboLuvr]

Voted no and that's thinking they won't reduce the HST.

[Nocardia]

I voted no as well

Voting yes doesn't punish the liberals, only voting them out of office will.

[adambomb]

Poll has been up for a week now and the "No" side has held the lead the entire time. :fuckyea:

Yet, the "Yes" side seems to be the most vocal. :IDL :noob:

[Liquid_o2]

I voted no, for a lot of the same reasons that were described on this page, so I won't go through it all again.

[Geoc]

Why can't they give us 12% HST , and have the previous PST exempt items, HST exempt?

What are the downsides of that?

Because the whole 'savings for business' is a front to introduced the new tax exemption laws. It's a attempt to distract you from the fact that they are increasing taxes on things that were exempt before. It's essentially a cash grab.
I agree with saving money with HST, but sneaking in a new tax exemptions rule with it is just dirty.

If I could make a ballot, I'd make it:

Keep HST, but revert any tax exemption changes back to it's original state.

But thats not gonna in this cash grabbing govt.

[gars]

Because the whole 'savings for business' is a front to introduced the new tax exemption laws. It's a attempt to distract you from the fact that they are increasing taxes on things that were exempt before. It's essentially a cash grab.
I agree with saving money with HST, but sneaking in a new tax exemptions rule with it is just dirty.

If I could make a ballot, I'd make it:

Keep HST, but revert any tax exemption changes back to it's original state.

But thats not gonna in this cash grabbing govt.

but with HST - any items that were previously PST exempt but were charged GST, will get charged the full amount of HST. There isn't any way around it. That's how HST works.

People also forget there are things - like liquor which actually has a decreased tax rate with HST.

[UFO]

but with HST - any items that were previously PST exempt but were charged GST, will get charged the full amount of HST. There isn't any way around it. That's how HST works.


Clearly there is a way around it, like the items below, it's just a matter of whether they want to provide a way for the exemptions to exist with HST (read, no cash grab). These were all PST exempt but charged GST before:

The following are exempt from the B.C. provincial portion of sales tax.

Books
Children’s-sized clothing and footwear (if your kid is big and needs adult size clothing, too bad for you now)
Children’s car seats and car booster seats
Diapers
Feminine hygiene products

More in depth: HST Exemptions and HST Rebates in BC | HST in Canada (http://www.hstincanada.com/2010/01/hst-exemptions-and-rebates-in-british-columbia/)

[Meowjin]

My pay got nerfed but my employer is making more money than ever :lol

Stupid humans.

[tiger_handheld]

but with HST - any items that were previously PST exempt but were charged GST, will get charged the full amount of HST. There isn't any way around it. That's how HST works.

People also forget there are things - like liquor which actually has a decreased tax rate with HST.

"The BC Liquor Distribution Branch has announced today that the "liquor board markup" on all products will be increased as of July 1, 2010 as part of the implementation of the HST. The introduction of the HST means that the provincial sales tax on alcohol will actually go down from its current 10% to the 7% provincial component of the HST (the 12% HST is made up of 7% provincial sales tax + 5% federal sales tax). In order to prevent consumers from actually receiving a break on the introduction of the HST (maybe that would have been a good idea?) ... the government had previously announced that they would increase liquor board markups to compensate. "

source: BC Increases Wine Markup From 117% to 123% - Wine Law in Canada and BC (http://www.winelaw.ca/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90:bc-increases-wine-markup-from-117-to-123&catid=1&Itemid=19)



it walks like a duck
it quacks like a duck
it looks like a duck
then it must be a duck!

Lets cut the bullshit and call the hst what it really is - a cash grab from the bc gov't to help fill a deficit.

[tiger_handheld]

so has all of RS voted?

[JesseBlue]

no...the people who complains alot haven't...

[Great68]

The president of my company just sent another company wide email urging all the employees to vote no. Jeez.

[Nightwalker]

Lets cut the bullshit and call the hst what it really is - a cash grab from the bc gov't to help fill a deficit.

Since you put it that way, I'm all for filling a deficit! Keep the HST

[SpartanAir]

I work in the film industry, and HST means more shows and movies coming here. I want it to stay.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Voting no. Other than some of must use items (food, cable, internet, gas.....) if I don't spend I don't have to pay HST.

However, if HST is gone and we go back to GST/PST. I am pretty sure the gov will raise other tax (gas taxe, income tax....) to make back the millions we loan from the federal gov and THOSE TAXES I HAVE TO PAY NO MATTER WHAT.

[twitchyzero]

oops i've been putting this off until now..if I drop it off in the mail box I guess it probaby won't reach their office in time (or as long as it's post dated by tomorrow it's fine?)....too lazy to drive to a service centre.

[Vansterdam]

was gonna drop mine in the mail tommorow as well

VOTE YES AND GET RID OF IT!


VOTING NO = BUNCH OF LIES their not gonna decrease shit

[quasi]

Does it takes 50% of the eligible voters voting Yes to revert it back? If so I can't see it happeneing, no way no how. People are to content, I think they'd be lucky to get just over 50% of the eligible voters filling out the paperwork and mailing it in period let alone voting all the sameway.

If it doesn't work this way then that might change something.

[twitchyzero]

yes it's a simple majority of >50%

[Soundy]

imo voting either option sucks. people still end up paying more tax compared to pre hst.

Yeah, but here's the difference between a VAT (value-added tax like this) vs. something like an income tax: with a VAT, YOU CAN CONTROL HOW MUCH TAX YOU PAY BY ADJUSTING YOUR SPENDING. Buy more generic products, or just buy less overall... you pay less tax.

if hst stays, well obviously big businesses benefit.
This kind of statement is so stupid and shortsighted. It's used all the time by people opposed to all sorts of government policies, as if "anything that's good for big business is inherently bad for individuals"... well guess what, big business employs a LOT of individuals, and if they do well financially, it allows them to expand and hire more individuals. Many big businesses also have profit-sharing programs, so if they do well, their employees benefit.

And for as much as this mantra has been trotted out for the HST debate, realize that the HST also benefits a LOT of SMALL businesses too. I work for a small company - two principals, two employees (me and another guy), and a half-dozen or so subcontractors around BC and Alberta. Our boss LOVES the HST for the way it saves him money through the supply chain. His wife, who does the books, also loves it because it simplifies her job substantially.

poor people pay more tax. no more exemptions. trickle down effect is a troll concept. the reduction to 10% is a few years away and there are no guarantees how long it will remain at 10%.
The alternative is a combination of two taxes that WILL remain at 12% for that whole period... so which is better, three years of two taxes at 12%, or one year of another single tax at 12%, another couple years at 11%, and then an undetermined amount of time at 10%?

either way, the average citizen still loses because tax payer are going to get the bill for the goverment to do studies and research, implement the hst, the cost of making this referendum happen, all the logistics, manpower, and all other associated costs.
You know who you have to thank for that, right? Bill vander Zalm. Chris Delaney. Bill Tielman. All those wonderful people who've been beating the anti-HST drum in pursuit of their own political dreams and agendas. The people who blame the Libs for the "uncertainty" in the business sector over whether or not the HST would stick around... are the same ones who created the uncertainty in the first place.

I'll make a prediction right now: the "Fight HST" people *will not* go away, should the referendum come in in favor of keeping the HST. Zalm has been claiming to "speak for the people of BC" from the start - they don't give a fuck what "the people" want, they just want to keep themselves in the news. His petitions failed miserably. His recall campaign bombed in a huge way. Yet he still claims that he know what "the People" want. People are being led and used by this group and they're just eating it up.

[Tapioca]

I've never been really poor, but I don't understand how people who supposedly advocate on behalf of the poor actually think they suffer more when a consumption tax goes up.

If you were truly poor, you wouldn't be buying much in the way of consumables. Most of your money would go towards food and shelter. Unprepared food (i.e. groceries) is exempt from taxes and so is rent. Moreover, you pay less in income taxes and you likely qualify for HST rebates.

The people that pay the most in taxes relative to their incomes is the middle class. They most often have families and they spend most of their disposable income on things that are taxable like meals, clothes, electronics, vacations, services, etc. Most people in the middle class also don't have the wherewithal to creatively invest their money to avoid taxes because they're too pinched trying to make ends meet and/or keeping up with the Joneses. (I state this as someone comfortably in the middle class.)

[gars]

oops i've been putting this off until now..if I drop it off in the mail box I guess it probaby won't reach their office in time (or as long as it's post dated by tomorrow it's fine?)....too lazy to drive to a service centre.

HST Referendum 2011 | Elections BC (http://www.elections.bc.ca/index.php/referenda-recall-initiative/hst-2011/)

It was pushed to a later date because of the postal strike.

It needs to be received by Aug 5th.

[Soundy]

Just saw this status post on FB: "Once again in 2011 I'm denied my voting franchise! Elections BC re-sent my apparently lost referendum package, saying explicitely that I'll have plenty of time since it's not due until sometime in August! Now I see that the deadline is tomorrow & I still don't have it! Dead people & people long moved to Ontario get one, but not me! :P What? I've been published too many times in the papers?"

Seriously... people like this don't deserve the "right" to vote. Dollars to donuts he's voting YES, too.

[gars]

Just saw this status post on FB: "Once again in 2011 I'm denied my voting franchise! Elections BC re-sent my apparently lost referendum package, saying explicitely that I'll have plenty of time since it's not due until sometime in August! Now I see that the deadline is tomorrow & I still don't have it! Dead people & people long moved to Ontario get one, but not me! :P What? I've been published too many times in the papers?"

Seriously... people like this don't deserve the "right" to vote. Dollars to donuts he's voting YES, too.

I would de-friend them on the spot. :alone:

[hotjoint]

voted YES

[Soundy]

I would de-friend them on the spot. :alone:

Interesting... it seems that after my pointing out to him for the THIRD TIME that the Elections BC guy WASN'T lying to him, as well as pasting the exact quote from their website that says the deadline is still Aug.5 and suggesting he take some personal responsibility for finding these things out himself, he has now blocked me.

Oh well.

George wrote: "How am I supposed to know this if I can't read it on the referendum package itself? & why can Elections BC lie to me? I phoned Elections BC last week at the number in the advertising to call if package not received."

George wrote: "The ads I see now are saying the deasdline is 22-July -- which is official/correct? One might assume the guy on the phone at Elections BC would know. One might likewise assume the date published on millions of referendum packages would be correct, too. . ."

George wrote: "There is no requirement that I must have internet access to have full voter franchise. Thus it is reasonable for me to get my information by phoning Elections BC directly, as I did. The info they gave me directly contradicts over a million pieces of publisdhed material!"

George wrote: "It's ony because people like me speak up that YOU have ANY rights! So think on that before you're so quick to criticise!"

I suppose I'm just another cog in the conspiracy to deny him his rights... apparently he didn't like my pointing out that the referendum packages were printed and mailed BEFORE the date was changed.

[tiger_handheld]

60/40 - split for "No" -- with 2 weeks to go..... Interested to see what the actual results vs RS results are..

[Presto]

Deadline is coming up! I was at the mall today, and dropped off our ballots. Gotta love the convenience. :).

[Presto]

Today's the day the referendum results are revealed!

[Graeme S]

And nobody has any idea which way it'll go. I really hope the HST sticks around. Even bigger deficits if it doesn't.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[tiger_handheld]

anyone know what time results will be out?
hopefully you guys can see the RS poll results , in case you cant.

Yes: Bring Back GST + PST @ 12% http://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/clear.gif 186 42.18% No: HST to decrease to 10% over 3 years (10% in 2014) http://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/clear.gif 255 57.82%

[Mr.HappySilp]

LOL if HST gets voted out we have to pay the 15M we own to the federal gov and guess how the gov will get that money........ MORE TAX!!!!!

[Graeme S]

Wasn't it 1.6 billion they gave us as an "incentive"?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[7seven]

Wasn't it 1.6 billion they gave us as an "incentive"?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Yup, $1.6 billion and the total cost to revert back will be just under $3 billion.

[Presto]

Results should be out this morning. I think I saw 11am mentioned on an article.

[CP.AR]

god if we go back to GST+PST it will be the biggest fucking waste of money.

EVER

[Mr.HappySilp]

god if we go back to GST+PST it will be the biggest fucking waste of money.

EVER

But that's what the gov does @@

[CRS]

But that's what the gov does @@

Actually, you can blame this one on the public should it revert.

[Ch28]

anyone know what time results will be out?
hopefully you guys can see the RS poll results , in case you cant.

Yes: Bring Back GST + PST @ 12% http://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/clear.gif 186 42.18% No: HST to decrease to 10% over 3 years (10% in 2014) http://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gifhttp://www.revscene.net/forums/clear.gif 255 57.82%

Results should be out this morning. I think I saw 11am mentioned on an article.


B.C. awaits results of HST referendum - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/08/25/bc-hst-referendum-result-setup.html)

The results of the HST referendum are expected to be released around 11 a.m. PT Friday morning — an event that could reshape the province's sales tax system and possibly trigger a provincial election.


Officials with Elections BC spent Thursday holed up in their Victoria headquarters, planning the announcement of the outcome from the 1.6 million mailed-in ballots submitted over the past two months.


About 52 per cent of the electorate took part in the binding referendum.
No matter which way British Columbians voted, Premier Christy Clark has a monumental political sales job ahead of her, say political experts.

[q0192837465]

I doubt there will be enough votes to revert back to GST/PST. If there is then the government is definitely tolling us. :troll:

[CRS]

I doubt there will be enough votes to revert back to GST/PST. If there is then the government is definitely tolling us. :troll:

The government already tried to mess up the votes with the way the referendum question was worded. God help us if they actually play with the numbers by voiding certain ballots or add votes to another because of a numbers error.

[sonick]

HST GOES

[twitchyzero]

source? google news was last updated 45 min ago

[sonick]

Twitter: Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23hst)

Best source for live news updates.

[skyxx]

Sigh, now we have to spend more money andddd everything stays the same with 12% ;) Thanks but no thanks.

[Great68]

Damn.

And I had changed my opinion from when the HST was first introduced to vote No.

[CP.AR]

time to spend more fucking money down the fucking drain

thanks vander zalm. the only reason why you wanted this is because you didn't want to get taxed on your fucking development property on the fucking steveston highway where fucking fantasy gardens was there and you fucking wasted i dunnohowmanydollars already to fucking build a fucking garden that nobody fucking gave two fucks about

[sonick]

Richmond was very heavily "YES" to extinguish, almost 60/30 averaged over the three districts. How many of those do you think are due to people not understanding the question?

[skyxx]

Surprisingly my area was voted yes..... Sigh....

[6insomnia9]

Oh well, time to spend more money.

[Presto]

FUCK

[fsy82]

B.C. votes to 55% to axe the HST - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/08/26/bc-hst-referendum-results.html)

[skyxx]

Have always stood behind the HST from day 1, thanks province! You Teh suck!

[Great68]

time to spend more fucking money down the fucking drain

thanks vander zalm. the only reason why you wanted this is because you didn't want to get taxed on your fucking development property on the fucking steveston highway where fucking fantasy gardens was there and you fucking wasted i dunnohowmanydollars already to fucking build a fucking garden that nobody fucking gave two fucks about

I went to a charity dinner a few months ago where Zalm was doing the auction with a couple of his cronies. Every couple of sentances he'd make some stupid quip about the HST, it got stale and stupid pretty quick.

[twitchyzero]

when will we find out if the PST exemptions will be back?
TaxTips.ca - BC PST Exemptions (http://www.taxtips.ca/bcpst/bcpstexemptions.htm)

[SlySi]

Pathetic time for BC.

Well done HST killers.
Thank you Zalm.. you fkn crook..

[lowside67]

Congratulations to all the fucking braindead lemmings, I hope you're happy.

Richmond was very heavily "YES" to extinguish, almost 60/30 averaged over the three districts. How many of those do you think are due to people not understanding the question?
Absolutely. People didnt understand that keeping HST was going to save them money. They just were brainwashed into HST = bad.

[TOS'd]

Well this sucks.

[!Yaminashi]

Sweet, we get fucked again!

[gars]

I don't like this at all. So are we going to have a referendum every time the gov't passes a bill?

[CP.AR]

we need to stop an anti-anti-HST vote to set everything back in place.

the damage has been done to the wallet. why not do more?

[sonick]

Fuck Bill Vander Zalm...

[murd0c]

It's all of these fucken tree hugger uneducated idiots that live in our province that don't have a clue about business and how things work. This is really going to hurt our economy that’s for sure.

[sonick]

$3 more billion down the drain just to re-instate PST.

[Durrann]

wow i kinda miss HST now LOL

u dont appreciate something until its gone haha

[Ch28]

when will we find out if the PST exemptions will be back?
TaxTips.ca - BC PST Exemptions (http://www.taxtips.ca/bcpst/bcpstexemptions.htm)

I think it was mentioned that even if we knocked off the HST that a lot of PST exempt items wouldn't come back.

[Liquid_o2]

Noooooooo :(

What a mess.

[SlySi]

How selected riding voted

Vancouver-Point Grey 41.89% in favour of extinguishing HST

Vancouver-Kingsway 72.45% in favour of extinguishing HST

Surrey-Green Timbers 75.51% in favour of extinguishing HST

Surrey-White Rock 45.53% in favour of extinguishing HST

West Vancouver-Capilano 35.48% in favour of extinguishing HST

Kelowna-Mission 44.42% in favour of extinguishing HST

Burnaby-Deer Lake 62.62% in favour of extinguishing HST

Abbotsford South 43.28% in favour of extinguishing HST

Richmond Centre 63.77% in favour of extinguishing HST

Prince George-Mackenzie 56.92% in favour of extinguishing HST

North Vancouver-Lonsdale 48.16% in favour of extinguishing HST

Coquitlam-Maillardville 54.63% in favour of extinguishing HST

Victoria-Beacon Hill 55.76% in favour of extinguishing HST


Read more: B.C. voters opt to scrap HST (http://www.vancouversun.com/voters+scrap/5313045/story.html#ixzz1WA7YYIQZ)

[Lomac]

Well fuck. At least my area voted No. It's interesting going through the results of the different regions and how they voted. West Van vs Richmond vs Burnaby, etc. You can see who likely voted based on their knowledge and how it likely impacted them (or, how they thought it impacted them).

2011 HST Referendum Voting Results (http://electionsbcenr.blob.core.windows.net/electionsbcenr/REF-2011-001.html)

[TOS'd]

What the fuck Vancouver-Kingsway.

[7seven]

Some idiot I know actually said he voted to scrap the HST because it was costing him more to buy new appliances, tvs, furniture, etc... to redo his house :seriously::fulloffuck:

I literally gave him hard smack upside the head.

I'm thinking the majority of people who voted to scrap the HST do not realize that for the majority of purchases, HST = GST+PST, and would've been cheaper in the long run when reduced to 10%. Sure things like your restaurant bill might be slightly higher, but honestly if an extra 5% is going to hurt you, then you really shouldn't be eating out in the first place. The only people that really benefit from scrapping the HST are low/fixed income people, as a whole BC and BC residents are fucked now.

I personally know about $400 million of future film production spending that was awaiting the outcome of the HST vote that will now likely not get spent in BC. This is also seriously going to hurt other BC businesses too.

[skyxx]

^ Yeah, no doubt about it. Plus we have to spend another 3 billion to give back to the feds. Thanks Bill and the province.

[TouringTeg]

Ugh. I was worried about this. I'm guessing there was lots of left over anger with how HST was introduced. I was looking forward to 10% HST instead of 12%. For the majority of us it would have saved us money vs PST + GST.

[CP.AR]

time to buy some fucking used cars

fucking goddamn my mom's flaming at me because i want HST because she wants to buy a used car at 5% and not spend as much on buying new property

[LSF22]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-61tVq5y-Upk/TheZZ0rVgPI/AAAAAAAAAAo/Ywa9vtYzk70/s320/Rage1.png

Fuck you Bill

[SlySi]

Well fuck. At least my area voted No. It's interesting going through the results of the different regions and how they voted. West Van vs Richmond vs Burnaby, etc. You can see who likely voted based on their knowledge and how it likely impacted them (or, how they thought it impacted them).

2011 HST Referendum Voting Results (http://electionsbcenr.blob.core.windows.net/electionsbcenr/REF-2011-001.html)

Quite interesting..
BC has proven.. Collectively we have been determined to have a very low IQ.

[CP.AR]

tonight when I'm home, I'm gonna do a little comparison.... average income/educational levels vs voted yes/no

[skyxx]

time to buy some fucking used cars

fucking goddamn my mom's flaming at me because i want HST because she wants to buy a used car at 5% and not spend as much on buying new property

Exemptions are vague at the moment when reverting back to PST/GST

I wouldn't be surprise if most things stayed the same. Then people will start realizing how bad of a decision they made during the voting.

[Meowjin]

it wont change anything, watch pst get raised.

Like I said it's a lose lose.

also lol at idiots claiming at "education levels" of the citizens.

This tax was unpopular because of how it was introduced. Get fucked liberals.

[sonick]

According to twitter, Kevin Falcon says PST slated to be re-instated in 18 months, March 31, 2013. PST exemptions should mostly be back in place with some "streamlining"

Update: New BC PST will NOT apply to restaurants, haircuts, bikes or gym memberships: Falcon @ctvbc #bcpoli

[Mr.HappySilp]

LOL now we have to pay back 3billion and who is going to pay it?
I am sure we all know the answer. Prepare to have your tax increase and more programs cut. And we have all those stupid people who voted yes to complain to.

[LSF22]

^^ Was watching on Global news, I thought I heard him say March 31st 2013, not 13th..?

[xpl0sive]

wow thats bullshit... they introduce HST overnight and take away the excemptions, but it will take 18 MONTHS to bring them back?

[sonick]

Yes, 31st my mistake.

[twitchyzero]

also lol at idiots claiming at "education levels" of the citizens.


+1

wow thats bullshit... they introduce HST overnight and take away the excemptions, but it will take 18 MONTHS to bring them back?

IIRC HST took 14 months?

[Meowjin]

LOL now we have to pay back 3billion and who is going to pay it?
I am sure we all know the answer. Prepare to have your tax increase and more programs cut. And we have all those stupid people who voted yes to complain to.

The government made 2 billion or something stupid since the intro of hst.

[CP.AR]

I know what we can do guys, lets start a riot!

[Jermyzy]

B.C. rejects HST in landmark referendum - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/bc-rejects-hst-in-landmark-referendum/article2143576/?from=sec431)

British Columbian voters have rejected the province’s controversial harmonized sales tax in an unprecedented referendum – a decision that will complicate efforts by the province’s Liberal government to manage B.C.’s finances and may also head off the prospect of a fall election.

More related to this story
•Live nowGary Mason and Patrick Brethour discuss the HST referendum results
•HST defeat likely to ice a fall election in B.C.
•Economy LabHST: Good economics, lousy psychology
Politics
The HST stickmen wars Results of the mail-in referendum were announced Friday by Elections BC, which spent weeks tallying 1.6-million ballots mailed in by voters.

Adrian Dix, leader of the opposition BC New Democrats, urged the provincial government to move quickly to restore the 7 per cent B.C. provincial sales tax., and also urged the Liberals to focus on the economy, jobs, health, education and the environment.

"New Democrats will work tirelessly to hold the Liberals to account as they implement the results of this historic referendum,” he said in a statement.

A spokesman for the federal finance minister said Ottawa will respect the decision by B.C. voters, but that Ottawa is looking for its $1.6 billion in funding to B.C. for adopting the tax.

“We will work with the Government of B.C. on the transition,” Chisholm Pothier said in a statement. . “The provincial government has already repeatedly acknowledged that the $1.6 billion in transitional assistance will be recovered as per the agreement.

John Cummins, leader of the BC Conservatives, noted that the B.C. Liberal government had failed to convince voters the tax was in their best interest despite spending millions of dollars in advertising to do so. “The vote is as much a rejection of the manner in which this Liberal government conducts the people’s business, as it is a rejection of the HST,” he said in a statement.

“That said, the government must act swiftly and repeal the HST by January 1st, 2012,” said Mr. Cummins, whose party has no seats in the B.C. legislature, but is seen as a threat to the coalition of supporters that sustains the BC Liberals. Mr. Cummins added the scope of the reinstated provincial sales tax should not be expanded beyond its pre-HST reach.

The referendum process was activated after Elections BC verified about 557,383 signatures on petitions that activated the province’s unique Recall and Initiative Act for the first time since the legislation was passed in the 1990s.

The result marks the first time a province has scrapped an HST, and the first time in modern Canadian history that voters have voted down a tax.

Supporters of the tax said it was crucial to bringing efficiency to the tax system, and creating a strong business environment. Critics said it shifted the tax burden from businesses to consumers.

The demise of the 12-per cent hybrid of the 5-per-cent federal Goods and Services Tax and 7-per-cent B.C. provincial sales tax – the Liberals under Premier Christy Clark had promised to drop the HST to 10 per cent by 2014 – will kick off a process of winding down the HST and reintroducing the PST.

But it will also force tough choices on the government of Ms. Clark, who inherited the policy from her predecessor Gordon Campbell.

The Liberals will have to come up with a plan to reimburse Ottawa for $1.6-billion in transitional funding for adopting the tax, and also face a revenue gap that could force cuts in programs and services.

The HST was expected to raise $5.8-billion in 2011/12: and is a faster growing revenue than the (provincial sales tax),” said a finance-ministry briefing note released earlier this year under access-to-information requests.

“If it were replaced with the previous PST, there would be a continually growing revenue gap.”

A transitional document prepared for Ms. Clark as she won the Liberal leadership in February warned, “eliminating the HST and returning to the PST would have significant revenue and economic implications for British Columbia.”

Also, Ms. Clark has been bullish about a snap election to earn her own mandate ahead of the scheduled vote in May, 2013. She has not ruled out a fall vote, and this week said her government is proceeding with election planning.

The rejection of the tax may provide a boost to B.C. New Democrats, whose leader Adrian Dix toured the province to encourage voters to reject the tax.

Ms. Clark said this week that her government had a “Plan B” ready to in response to the challenges of scrapping the tax in response to a negative referendum vote, but has yet to release details.

The premier and Finance Minister Kevin Falcon have scheduled news conferences Friday to respond to the referendum.

Mr. Campbell introduced the tax in 2009 following a provincial election in which the Liberals had ruled it out.

The move ignited a ferocious public backlash with former Social Credit premier Bill Vander Zalm rallying a Fight-HST campaign that organized petition signings across the province.

For the first time, sufficient numbers of British Columbians signed petitions to force a referendum under the Recall and Initiative Act.

The ballot question read: Are you in favour of extinguishing the HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) and reinstating the PST (Provincial Sales Tax) in conjunction with the GST (Goods and Services Tax)? (Yes/No) In effect, voters had to vote Yes to get rid of the tax and No to save it.

The ballot backlash is bad news for Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, whose Liberals adopted an HST in December, 2009 over strenuous opposition – and face an election in October.

[gars]

HST: Good economics, lousy psychology

The HST is a highly visible tax. According to the standard undergraduate textbook, Public Finance in Canada, that’s a good thing: “…it is generally agreed that visible taxes are preferable to hidden taxes…. Most economists view the visibility of the GST as one of its beneficial characteristics.”
More related to this story

The alleged advantage of visible taxes is better policy choices. Supposedly, if people know how much they are paying in taxes, they will be able to make informed decisions about how much government spending they are prepared to support.

Making taxes visible might be good economics. But it’s certainly lousy psychology.

Behavioural economics research consistently finds that people are averse to losses. Yes, people like receiving a $50 cheque in the mail, but they really hate having to pay an extra $50 at the cash register. Over all, some people have gained from the introduction of the HST. For example, university students who don’t spend much, but still get an HST refund cheque, are now better off. Some people have lost out, for example, people who spend a lot of money on the services that were tax-exempt under the old provincial sales tax. And some people are no worse off than they were before the HST was introduced.

But when people weigh losses more than gains -- when they care more about paying an extra $3 for a hair cut than getting an HST refund cheque -- even people who gain from the HST might still oppose it. The losses register, the gains don’t. That’s why visible taxes are lousy psychology -- and bad politics.

I’m not even convinced that making taxes visible is good economics. The crucial point is that when it comes to taxes, what you see isn’t always what you pay. For example, suppose you pay $700,000 for a new home in the Fraser Valley. After the BC new housing rebate, $57,750 in HST will be added to the price of your home. That’s what you see. A visible tax of $57,750.

But $57,750 is not be a good measure of a new home buyer’s true tax burden. To figure out how much more you are actually paying as a result of taxes, you need to know: what would the new home have cost in a world without HST?

In fact, without the HST, the before-tax price of a new home would almost certainly have been higher, for two reasons.

First, before the HST was introduced, construction companies had to pay provincial sales tax on many of their inputs -- and passed some of those costs onto consumers. The HST isn’t a straightforward tax increase. Instead, it substitutes a visible tax -- the HST -- for a tax that consumers couldn’t see -- the PST that companies paid on their equipment and some other goods and then built into the price of new homes.

Second, people in the Lower Mainland can only afford to pay so much for a new home. The introduction of the HST increased the after-tax price of homes, giving property developers a choice: keep the before-tax price the same, and shut some people out of the market, or lower the before-tax price, and continue to sell homes. The basic economics of supply and demand predict that the introduction of a tax on new homes creates downwards pressure on the before-tax home price.

When prices change as a result of taxes, the burden of the tax is shifted. As a general rule, taxes are shifted to those who can’t move, or change their behavior, in response to the tax. In the new homes example, that would be the original land owners. They can’t move their land. They can only hold onto it, or sell it for the most that the market will bear. The point is: the visible tax is on the new home buyer. But the person who is made worse off as a result of the tax might be someone else, for example, the owners of prime Fraser Valley real estate.

Economists are overwhelmingly in favour of the HST. The opposition the HST has encountered in B.C. should, therefore, cause us to re-think our support for visible taxes.

When a visible tax replaces an invisible tax, people may overestimate the impact of the tax change on their tax burden – and will therefore oppose the tax, even if the revenue is necessary to finance the goods and services, like health care and education, and the public wants.

HST: Good economics, lousy psychology - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/frances-woolley/hst-good-economics-lousy-psychology/article2143233/)

[twitchyzero]

look 1 thread down

[LSF22]

Discuss here!


http://www.revscene.net/forums/649320-you-favour-extingushing-hst.html

[Jermyzy]

^Yeah, don't know how I missed it :facepalm:

[7seven]

This tax was unpopular because of how it was introduced. Get fucked liberals.

Personally I have no issues with the Provincial Liberals but I agree that the way it was brought in and introduced angered a lot of people.

However, IMO this was not the correct way to send a message if you did not like the Provincial Liberals, you do that with a general election vote, not to vote down a tax that as a whole benefited BC and the majority of its residents and would be made up in other taxes and service cuts. IMO, a consumer tax was the best way to go.

[tiger_handheld]

Question: If the HST was supposed to be revenue neutral (ie: not a tax increase), why are they now reporting there will be a tax revenue gap (shortfall) once we're back to PST + GST? Something doesn't add up

[tiger_handheld]

tonight when I'm home, I'm gonna do a little comparison.... average income/educational levels vs voted yes/no

be sure to post results.

[Meowjin]

Personally I have no issues with the Provincial Liberals but I agree that the way it was brought in and introduced angered a lot of people.

However, IMO this was not the correct way to send a message if you did not like the Provincial Liberals, you do that with a general election vote, not to vote down a tax that as a whole benefited BC and the majority of its residents and would be made up in other taxes and service cuts. IMO, a consumer tax was the best way to go.

The HST campaigning was the worst part. The used several tactics to try to keep HST and the whole "NO" side was even destroying signs of the yes side and that garnered media attention.

You can never ever make a tax sound good ever. Most british columbians are overtaxed at the pumps, in their daily lives and through their income and just generally don't make enough. I mean I have a "good" job. It's an average 60k a year job. After all is said in done though 20% taxes, rrsp contribution etc, that leaves me with about 35-40k a year. After rent (lets say 13k a year) then food, and entertainment, gas, insurance, etc etc, im left with like 5k a year to save.

lifes brutal in vancouver and I can understand why people are pissed.

[Mr.HappySilp]

The government made 2 billion or something stupid since the intro of hst.

Right and you think the gov will use it to pay it off? LOL Our gov is like a spoil princess it spend as much as it is given and when it is in debt it applies for Credit Card (Increase Tax, borrow form fed gov). When it needs to pay off any debt it either increase more tax or go bankrupt.

[Meowjin]

Right and you think the gov will use it to pay it off? LOL Our gov is like a spoil princess it spend as much as it is given and when it is in debt it applies for Credit Card (Increase Tax, borrow form fed gov). When it needs to pay off any debt it either increase more tax or go bankrupt.

I can't tell what your upset about?

The poor policies of the government or the fact that the HST was a smart thing (apparently?).

[Meowjin]

No more HST, so sad. Was looking forward to not paying sales tax in Seattle.

[wstce92]

I can't believe it...
I actually had faith that collectively, as a province, we were smart.

[gars]

I can't believe it...
I actually had faith that collectively, as a province, we were smart.

If anything, I'd say mob mentality makes everybody more stupid - for example, Riots of 2011 Stanley Cup Finals.

Bill Vander Zalm is no different from Sarah Palin and the Tea Party.

[CP.AR]

the HST was a good idea, but as majin pointed out... bad introduction...

even worse, they just HAD to do it in the middle of a worldwide economic downturn. That being said though, giving the province a shot at bringing back the old tax has to be the stupidest decision ever

[Graeme S]

"None of us is as stupid as all of us."

As far as the revenue neutrality, they acknowledged shortly after it was introduced that it wasn't revenue neutral. That's why they had planned to cut the rate down to 10 over a few years.

Personally I'd rather have a 15% VAT and increase the amount to the lowest (0%) tax bracket to allow more money for essentials for the poor people and getting more out of the rich. Consumption taxes on luxuries are some of the most equitable out there.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[skyxx]

Watch bill be part of the running during the next elections. ;)
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[shawn79]

Kingsway? :fuckthatshit:

I bet people were not aware hst will be reduce to 10% during vote... Trolled
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[taylor192]

time to buy some fucking used cars
Not so fast, no-one has announced what will happen now. We might not get the exemptions back.

Used cars were GST exempt, so the PST was raised from 7% to 12% to become the HST. Now that we're back to PST, the PST has to be lowered to 7%, and there's no indication yet that will happen.

[taylor192]

the HST was a good idea, but as majin pointed out... bad introduction...

even worse, they just HAD to do it in the middle of a worldwide economic downturn. That being said though, giving the province a shot at bringing back the old tax has to be the stupidest decision ever

The GST was brought in in much worse times. The difference was people were not given a choice, if they were the result would be much the same.

[LaidbacK]

The hst was introduced in such a bad way that it became a 'do you hate Gordan Campbell' vote.

[taylor192]

Anyone have a time for when Clark and Falcon will voice their comments? It is supposed to be today, yet doesn't say when. I'm surprised it wasn't at 11am sharp.

[sonick]

Falcon has already made his speech. He is clearly disappointed, said it was a "step backwards".

[LSF22]

Falcon briefly talked about it during the Global noon news... but I'm sure he'll be discussing it in further detail sometime in the next couple hours..

[TRDood]

Question: If the HST was supposed to be revenue neutral (ie: not a tax increase), why are they now reporting there will be a tax revenue gap (shortfall) once we're back to PST + GST? Something doesn't add up

Because implementation of the new tax cost money. Adminstration is not free, awareness campaigns are not free, information is not free.

Going back to the old tax will have the same costs.

The shifting of tax structure may be revenue neutral in the long run, not in the short run.

[stuff99]

It's not like we have to give back an entire 1.6 billion back to Ottawa. Ottawa gives us money anyways because you know, we do live in Canada too.

[sonick]

Hahahaha NDP:

#ndp MP Libby Davies says her party will "do everything in our power" to pressure Fed. Gov. to forgive BC's $1.6 bil #hst transfer$

NDP: Don't make B.C. repay $1.6B in HST transition funds.

NDP: So can we keep the 1.6b? :troll:

Fed: :seriously: :fuckthatshit:

NDP: :okay:

[TOS'd]

http://i56.tinypic.com/wirr7l.jpg

:facepalm:

[Gridlock]

18 months??? They'll skip the handouts they were using to buy votes, and ride it out to use the full extra amount that the HST brought in to pay it off.

Time for another recall campaign...I want that thing gone Dec.31.

I'm getting a lot of neg. vibes here regarding the education level of people that voted yes.

I voted yes.

I am educated. I understand the benefits of the HST. I voted yes because it didn't work for me. I decided not to think about the province, and the poor and everyone else out there that I'm sure I was supposed to think about.

I voted for me, and for my clients.

Reason 1:

I own a small business. I'm a contractor. I primarily renovate rental apartments these days.

I saw the huge jump in the tax amount on my invoices. As my clients are the primary users of what I do, they cannot write off the HST, even though they are a business, as there is no HST on rent.

Their income on a property is based on market conditions in the neighborhood at the initial setting of the rent, and then regulated by the province until they decide to move.

So, in short, its just a big increase in the expense of renovating and building improvements.

Even if I took every penny of PST savings that I obtain by being able to claim it under HST and handed it over on the bill, its still more expensive.

And I've said this many times in this thread...I look at sub-total and my clients look at total.

Reason 2:

The business benefits claims that would result in lower prices are hard to imagine.

In order for it to work, you would have to have multiple steps in the production chain, all canadian sources and all operating in an HST environment.

Then that cascade passing of taxes to the final consumer would result in a pool of savings that could be used to lower prices while maintaining profit.

Reason 3:

I'm not going to lie...it was a little about retribution for its introduction.

They hoped they could weather the storm. Turns out, they couldn't.

I have been a liberal supporter since 2000ish in this province(the election that brought campbell to power) and for more years on the east coast.

I still support the liberals over the NDP. Way more. I hate the NDP.

But, I can't support bad politics.

His people came to him and said the deficit is going to be far larger than originally planned. Campbell came to power by slamming the NDP's spending.

So, he didn't do what was right for the province. He took the federal money to close the hole and try to look clean.

They tried to sell it as being good for the province.

Reason 4:

Clark is even worse.

She tried to buy votes. She was prepared to hand out checks to certain groups(families and elderly) to transfer wealth.

And I hated it. I hated the idea of checks going out to groups of people. I pay in HST-I collect HST-I fill out HST paperwork.

Where's my cut?

I liked the idea of cutting the HST to 10%. I think it should have been introduced at 10%. I think they should have just said, vote no, and HST goes to 10% the next fucking day.

But they signed a paper that the HST % couldn't be changed for a certain time. I'm sorry, the Canadian gov't is now dictating what happens provincially? And you people signed it?

10% is fantastic....prepared food is a little more, cars and tv's are a little less.

Your poor? Cool. Eat at home, and you'll never notice. You're rich? Awesome. Buy that hot Mercedes...you'll love it. It's cheaper.

Reason 5-The random reasons

The liberals spent millions on their campaign. Millions of our dollars ps. Then their business friends spent even more.

Those stick men commercials drove me nuts.

I don't like Christy Clark's voice

Kevin Falcon is a putz.

They intentionally tried to make the question confusing to get some dumb people to vote the wrong way.

Conclusion:

I looked at the ballot, and thought about it.

In the end, I said fuck it. The mistake was already made. Time to cut and run.

And I voted to scrap the HST.

And next election, I'll vote to scrap Clark as well. That leaves me voting for the conservative party, so apparently I'm for that ultra right wing blow hard as oppsed to the wealth transferring liberals and NDP.

[Meowjin]

Some Woman This move is going to cost the middle class more money...I'm middle class and I am NOT cheering. People don't understand that this will just end up causing our taxes to go up..(He finance minister just said they reserve the right to end pst exemptions so this just cost us a billion dollars for nothing. Smart move 'middle class'
24 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
MHTRP The middle class were not striking down HST lol. NDP areas are not middle class at all.
20 minutes ago · Like

[xpl0sive]

funny how their stupid way of asking the question didnt confuse enough people... i actually had to explain to my buddies italian grandparents what the ballot was actually asking. they were initially going to vote No, thinking that voting No meant No HST. i explained that the way the question is posed, they need to vote YES if they don't want HST. they were really confused... now i'm wondering about how many other registered voters do not comprehend english well and voted No thinking they were voting against the HST?

[Culverin]

Those who didn't vote don't get to complain.

I'm just saying.

[CP.AR]

The GST was brought in in much worse times. The difference was people were not given a choice, if they were the result would be much the same.

sorry didn't know about that :okay:

[taylor192]

Because implementation of the new tax cost money. Adminstration is not free, awareness campaigns are not free, information is not free.

Going back to the old tax will have the same costs.

The shifting of tax structure may be revenue neutral in the long run, not in the short run.
Not to burst your bubble cause I agree with all that.... yet the HST actually ended up being revenue generating, thus the shortfall.

[Mr.HappySilp]

I work for a small business and this does not go well with us. I voted NO since well it affects my company but I also knew it will cost us millions if not billions to convert back to GST/PST and we have to pay back the fed govs.

HST is already here so why not accept it. I paid the household expenisve and I honestly don't see the issue with paying maybe an extra $200 to 300 per year but gets a way bigger bonus at work. As someone have said earlier it is a bad time to go back to GST/PST during economy downtimes. It will cost company more money to convert back and also all the potental sales or potental business that might operate in BC might no longer happen. So the cost will be pass down to us anyways.

Also people are under the assumption that PST will remain at 7% once it is coverted back. That's not 100% true. The gov will rasie the PST with some BS excuse so it will no longer be 7%. Remember the gov needs to find some ways to pay off the 3billion dollars. The only way to do is either increase tax or cut programs.

[taylor192]

I'm getting a lot of neg. vibes here regarding the education level of people that voted yes.

Look at some of the comments coming from those who voted yes and you'll see your educated comments stand out like a sore thumb.

[StylinRed]

BC Finance Minister Kevin Falcon says he is disappointed but not surprised voters decided to scrap the HST.

Falcon admits his government is to blame for the bungled roll-out of the tax in 2009, which, to many, appeared like a backdoor deal. He says the province is aiming to return to the PST/GST system by March 31st, 2013.

He also says BC will honour its deal with the federal government but will negotiate around paying back the $1.6 billion Ottawa gave BC in transition funding.

"That is going to be subject to negotiations and discussions. I'm not going to be having a public negotiation, but we will honour the commitment we made to keep up our end of the bargain. I intend to be meeting with [Federal Finance] Minister Flaherty in September to begin those discussions on how we are going to do that."

Falcon says it will be a challenge to manage what he pegs as a $3 billion budget hole, but he's confidentl they can do it.

BC chooses to scrap the HST - News1130 (http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/270831--bc-chooses-to-scrap-the-hst)



Look at some of the comments coming from those who voted yes and you'll see your educated comments stand out like a sore thumb.

typical douchebag sore loser comment by saying the winning side are idiots :lol:


I voted to keep the HST but there's no reason to accuse the other side to be uneducated; morons; idiots that's not only ignorant but a reflection of yourself

[tiger_handheld]

18 months??? They'll skip the handouts they were using to buy votes, and ride it out to use the full extra amount that the HST brought in to pay it off.

Time for another recall campaign...I want that thing gone Dec.31.

I'm getting a lot of neg. vibes here regarding the education level of people that voted yes.

I voted yes.

I am educated. I understand the benefits of the HST. I voted yes because it didn't work for me. I decided not to think about the province, and the poor and everyone else out there that I'm sure I was supposed to think about.

I voted for me, and for my clients.

Reason 1:

I own a small business. I'm a contractor. I primarily renovate rental apartments these days.

I saw the huge jump in the tax amount on my invoices. As my clients are the primary users of what I do, they cannot write off the HST, even though they are a business, as there is no HST on rent.

Their income on a property is based on market conditions in the neighborhood at the initial setting of the rent, and then regulated by the province until they decide to move.

So, in short, its just a big increase in the expense of renovating and building improvements.

Even if I took every penny of PST savings that I obtain by being able to claim it under HST and handed it over on the bill, its still more expensive.

And I've said this many times in this thread...I look at sub-total and my clients look at total.

Reason 2:

The business benefits claims that would result in lower prices are hard to imagine.

In order for it to work, you would have to have multiple steps in the production chain, all canadian sources and all operating in an HST environment.

Then that cascade passing of taxes to the final consumer would result in a pool of savings that could be used to lower prices while maintaining profit.

Reason 3:

I'm not going to lie...it was a little about retribution for its introduction.

They hoped they could weather the storm. Turns out, they couldn't.

I have been a liberal supporter since 2000ish in this province(the election that brought campbell to power) and for more years on the east coast.

I still support the liberals over the NDP. Way more. I hate the NDP.

But, I can't support bad politics.

His people came to him and said the deficit is going to be far larger than originally planned. Campbell came to power by slamming the NDP's spending.

So, he didn't do what was right for the province. He took the federal money to close the hole and try to look clean.

They tried to sell it as being good for the province.

Reason 4:

Clark is even worse.

She tried to buy votes. She was prepared to hand out checks to certain groups(families and elderly) to transfer wealth.

And I hated it. I hated the idea of checks going out to groups of people. I pay in HST-I collect HST-I fill out HST paperwork.

Where's my cut?

I liked the idea of cutting the HST to 10%. I think it should have been introduced at 10%. I think they should have just said, vote no, and HST goes to 10% the next fucking day.

But they signed a paper that the HST % couldn't be changed for a certain time. I'm sorry, the Canadian gov't is now dictating what happens provincially? And you people signed it?

10% is fantastic....prepared food is a little more, cars and tv's are a little less.

Your poor? Cool. Eat at home, and you'll never notice. You're rich? Awesome. Buy that hot Mercedes...you'll love it. It's cheaper.

Reason 5-The random reasons

The liberals spent millions on their campaign. Millions of our dollars ps. Then their business friends spent even more.

Those stick men commercials drove me nuts.

I don't like Christy Clark's voice

Kevin Falcon is a putz.

They intentionally tried to make the question confusing to get some dumb people to vote the wrong way.

Conclusion:

I looked at the ballot, and thought about it.

In the end, I said fuck it. The mistake was already made. Time to cut and run.

And I voted to scrap the HST.

And next election, I'll vote to scrap Clark as well. That leaves me voting for the conservative party, so apparently I'm for that ultra right wing blow hard as oppsed to the wealth transferring liberals and NDP.


+1 for majority of reasons.

[UFO]

when will we find out if the PST exemptions will be back?
TaxTips.ca - BC PST Exemptions (http://www.taxtips.ca/bcpst/bcpstexemptions.htm)

Since nothing was promised during campaigning of what would happen if HST was voted out, voters SHOULD have voted based on worse case scenario--that previous PST exemptions will not carry over to the current PST.

If voters choosing YES were assuming that everything return to the same as the good ol' days, that is simply foolish. That ANY of the PST exemptions are coming back is a surprise to me. If it was up to me I would have just said FU and kept exemptions the same as HST and blame that on Zalm and the Yes crowd for not telling voters what would happen if HST was gone.

[taylor192]

typical douchebag sore loser comment by saying the winning side are idiots :lol:

I voted to keep the HST but there's no reason to accuse the other side to be uneducated; morons; idiots that's not only ignorant but a reflection of yourself

You're a tard and gladly not a reflection of myself as I am awesome.

This is a typical comment by a YES voter, and you're welcome to read this thread for more of them as there are LOTS of douchebags whining about paying more for eating out, a luxury that should be taxed. I'm willing to bet it'd be the #1 complaint about the HST if a poll was taken.
http://i56.tinypic.com/wirr7l.jpg

[Iceman_2K]

Thanks to BC Voters for a 3 billion dollar bill...

[Phil@rise]

Gridlock hit the nail on the head!

[Ronin]

also lol at idiots claiming at "education levels" of the citizens.

Why? I'm almost sure the majority of the people that voted were only thinking "WWHWHHAAAATT? 12% TAX ON MY BIG MAC!? FUCK YOU HST!". I'd bet money that quite a few people voted against it simply because they thought they were voting against higher taxes or because they could no longer buy adult size clothing and not pay PST by saying it's for their younger brother.

I guarantee you a lot of Richmond voted that way because of that second one. :lol

[Mr.HappySilp]

Why? I'm almost sure the majority of the people that voted were only thinking "WWHWHHAAAATT? 12% TAX ON MY BIG MAC!? FUCK YOU HST!". I'd bet money that quite a few people voted against it simply because they thought they were voting against higher taxes or because they could no longer buy adult size clothing and not pay PST by saying it's for their younger brother.

I guarantee you a lot of Richmond voted that way because of that second one. :lol

Or Fat C-lais buying a size 0 TNA pants and claiming is for her daughter :okay:

[Ronin]

Actually, I take that back. Education has nothing to do with it.

Up top you'll see that 57% of REVscene voted to keep the HST and a lot of you are flat out fucking idiots.

[trig]

18 months??? They'll skip the handouts they were using to buy votes, and ride it out to use the full extra amount that the HST brought in to pay it off.

Time for another recall campaign...I want that thing gone Dec.31.

I'm getting a lot of neg. vibes here regarding the education level of people that voted yes.

I voted yes.

I am educated. I understand the benefits of the HST. I voted yes because it didn't work for me. I decided not to think about the province, and the poor and everyone else out there that I'm sure I was supposed to think about.

I voted for me, and for my clients.

Reason 1:

I own a small business. I'm a contractor. I primarily renovate rental apartments these days.

I saw the huge jump in the tax amount on my invoices. As my clients are the primary users of what I do, they cannot write off the HST, even though they are a business, as there is no HST on rent.

Their income on a property is based on market conditions in the neighborhood at the initial setting of the rent, and then regulated by the province until they decide to move.

So, in short, its just a big increase in the expense of renovating and building improvements.

Even if I took every penny of PST savings that I obtain by being able to claim it under HST and handed it over on the bill, its still more expensive.

And I've said this many times in this thread...I look at sub-total and my clients look at total.

Reason 2:

The business benefits claims that would result in lower prices are hard to imagine.

In order for it to work, you would have to have multiple steps in the production chain, all canadian sources and all operating in an HST environment.

Then that cascade passing of taxes to the final consumer would result in a pool of savings that could be used to lower prices while maintaining profit.



Your reasons 1 and 2 are flawed. Since the HST has started all raw materials have sky rocketed, your costs have gone up not due to HST; but due to the cost of raw materials. You're bills from your suppliers now include HST, which you should not be passing on to your customer. That HST is given back to you as a credit when you file your business taxes.

You don't need multiple steps in a production chain, you just need multiple times the product has been flipped. Any of the products you purchase and put into a home are bought and sold in Canada multiple times. Taking out a compounding PST should in effect lower your costs.

[MG1]

History was made today.

The first time in Canadian history a tax has been voted down by the people.

I personally don't give a damn which way it went. One way or another, governments get their money. One group benefits, while another loses. I just don't like the way the HST was introduced.

Like Gridlock stated, if it were 10% HST and it started ASAP, it might have been OK.

Anyway, discussing it on RS is not going to change anything. Calling others uneducated for voting yes, is pretty dumb, too.

And, Culverin, I cannot complain - I didn't vote.

[TOS'd]

You're a tard and gladly not a reflection of myself as I am awesome.

This is a typical comment by a YES voter, and you're welcome to read this thread for more of them as there are LOTS of douchebags whining about paying more for eating out, a luxury that should be taxed. I'm willing to bet it'd be the #1 complaint about the HST if a poll was taken.
http://i56.tinypic.com/wirr7l.jpg

^ The owner of that comment drives a baby blue s2k........:fullofwin:

[Ronin]

I am educated. I understand the benefits of the HST. I voted yes because it didn't work for me. I decided not to think about the province, and the poor and everyone else out there that I'm sure I was supposed to think about.

Wouldn't a split GST/PST benefit the poor more than a 10% GST?

I don't quite agree with your reasoning but I do like the way you think. I'm also very ME FIRST when it comes to my vote.

[taylor192]

Not so fast, no-one has announced what will happen now. We might not get the exemptions back.

Used cars were GST exempt, so the PST was raised from 7% to 12% to become the HST. Now that we're back to PST, the PST has to be lowered to 7%, and there's no indication yet that will happen.

Clark has said we WILL get the exemptions back.

So now the question is, how will a $3B budget hole get filled? Income tax? corporate tax? raise the PST? cuts? ...???

[UFO]

I'm ME FIRST too. I would rather pay lower income tax, and not have millions let alone billions wasted and have zero to show for it. Like MG1 I agree if the gov wants your money they will find a way to get it. I'd just rather to have something show for my $ at the end of the day.

Looking at this referendum from a political POV, because the Liberals/Clark didn't have to hold one to have HST stick around, does it change your views about the Liberals? Clark was in a tough spot having to clean up Gordo's mess with HST implementation and all of BC hating them for that. Clark wanted to play nice woman and give BC a choice. As I recall, Zalm was having difficulty with his recall campaign anyways, so the way I see it this referendum was really just an attempt for the Liberals to win back some public support. Sure is a hell of an expensive way to do it...

[wstce92]

Your reasons 1 and 2 are flawed. Since the HST has started all raw materials have sky rocketed, your costs have gone up not due to HST; but due to the cost of raw materials. You're bills from your suppliers now include HST, which you should not be passing on to your customer. That HST is given back to you as a credit when you file your business taxes.

You don't need multiple steps in a production chain, you just need multiple times the product has been flipped. Any of the products you purchase and put into a home are bought and sold in Canada multiple times. Taking out a compounding PST should in effect lower your costs.

+1
reading reasons 1 and 2 :fulloffuck:

[skyxx]

ALRIGHT GUYS IT'S SUNNY! LET'S ENJOY THE SUN AND CHECK OUT CHICKS IN BIKINIS AND SHORT SHORTS CAUSE THAT SHIT WON'T LAST!!!!