[bing]

I'm with Marco on this one. It's unfortunate two guys died but I don't think that should be the impetus for having the lane closed. People need to use more common sense when they drive and people should have a choice to drive in the open middle lane. If they don't feel safe doing the same they can stay in the right lane. I don't need a babysitter and I'll take responsibility for my own risks driving in the middle lane thank you.

I hate people who clog up one lane roads and I think it'll just create more road rage and frustration.

[Marco911]

just because it's routinely ignored doesn't mean it's right, or legal.... :|

I think if there's one thing the society is lacking right now, it's patience.

I don't always drive at the speed limit myself though, and it kinda is dangerous. especially in richmond :badpokerface:

No, I think if there's one thing that society lacks, is being able to think critically. Too many lemmings and sheep that blindly follow "rules."

One major reason that people drive at the speed limit is to avoid traffic fines. If you are in a pack of cars driving at the speed of traffic flow and you are not leading the pack, the chances of getting a speeding ticket is pretty much zero.

[canali]

so i was right 3-5 min to do it...and some morons on the road can't handle such a huge ''time delay''.
lmao

i doubt, marco911, that you'll very often find anyone driving 10kph less than posted, let's be frank fsure you get it on occasion..perhaps they're older or are new)...big deal...be patient... guess on such a rare occasion that that drug deal will be delayed a few moments ..most people do go with the flow of traffic and are above the speed limit vs the other way around.

No, you make a reasonable point. It is much easier to accept because you are dealing with the constraints of the infrastructure. At some point, you know it will be in your favour when there will be 2 lanes both directions.

I still see many drivers tailgate the shit out of people driving the speed limit on the causeway.

[Marco911]

so i was right 3-5 min to do it...and some morons on the road can't handle such a huge ''time delay''.
lmao

i doubt, marco911, that you'll very often find anyone driving 10kph less than posted, let's be frank fsure you get it on occasion..perhaps they're older or are new)...big deal...be patient... guess on such a rare occasion that that drug deal will be delayed a few moments ..most people do go with the flow of traffic and are above the speed limit vs the other way around.


No, you were wrong. 70,000 vehicles use LGB a day. Let's say that would be 10,000 vehicles/day during off-peak hours. Add an extra 4 mins to their commute and that's 40,000 mins lost / day * 365 days = 14,600,000 mins lost / year. That is the same as 27 life-years lost for every year of sub-optimal traffic flow. 270 life-years lost after a 10 year period. This decision is going to cost society more in wasted time than potential lives saved. North Shore residents are among the most educated and wealthiest in the country. We do not like when things work sub-optimally.

The optimized flow of traffic depends on faster vehicles being able to get around slower vehicles. Hogging the fast lane. Suboptimal. Driving next to another car on a 2 lane road. Suboptimal. Closing the middle lane of a perfectly safe bridge. Suboptimal.

[FerrariEnzo]

I don't need a babysitter and I'll take responsibility for my own risks driving in the middle lane thank you.
.
this responsibility you speak of... if (not saying it will happen) you were the one that caused an accident that cost the lives of another driver/passenger.. how would you live with yourself knowing well how dangerous it was.. would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

[Marco911]

this responsibility you speak of... if (not saying it will happen) you were the one that caused an accident that cost the lives of another driver/passenger.. how would you live with yourself knowing well how dangerous it was.. would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

You must be fucking kidding me. Do you walk around with a life preserver?
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltpgmyxYMn1qazkdco1_1319686631_cover.png

The bridge is built with 3 lanes, and they should be utilised at all times. There is no logic behind closing the middle lane at certain hours of the day.

[Sky_High]

The bridge is built with 3 lanes, and they should be utilised at all times.

Nope, the bridge was built with 2 lanes back in the 1930's :troll:
http://hp.bccna.bc.ca/Library/WestVan/history/Photos/Lions_Gate/1658driving.jpg

but I agree. The Province decided to widen it for a reason...and it should be utilized.

[UFO]

would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

You don't go to jail for causing a death while driving in a legal manner. I'd wager to say that you don't go to jail even if you cause a death while driving like a douche and breaking laws.

Judging by the number who dispute speeding tickets with no basis for challenging them, I would say that there are a good number who would fight it even knowing they are fully in the wrong.

Using the 'logic' that closing off the middle lane during less busy hours is safer, you could apply that to every damn street in the city during the same hours and create a safety bubble everywhere, and even prevent deaths and accidents from happening in the future. Make sense? :failed:

[bing]

this responsibility you speak of... if (not saying it will happen) you were the one that caused an accident that cost the lives of another driver/passenger.. how would you live with yourself knowing well how dangerous it was.. would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

This is an appeal to emotion argument, which is a logical fallacy. I try not to make decisions based on fear or 'what ifs'. Accidents can and do happen everywhere. Are we going to start closing lanes on every bridge, highway, and road? Why not just shut the bridge down every night at 9pm? Or require vehicles to come from the factory equipped with speed limiters that prevent us from going faster than the speed limit? Better yet, just stay home.

In the hypothetical situation you presented, I don't want to sound insensitive but I could say that I would eventually recover. If I was charged, I would also let the legal process take its course and also be entitled to the full protection of the law. People who commit murders are entitled, why wouldn't I? It is also a Charter right that I am innocent until proven guilty. Accidents are just that, accidents, unless my driving was a gross departure from the standard of the reasonable person.

[twitchyzero]

What world do you live in? Out in the real world, speed limits are ROUTINELY IGNORED. Traffic often moves 20-30 km/h above the speed limit on many roads, including on LGB. If self-righteous idiots want to drive the speed limit, or lower, fine. Stay in the SLOW lane and let others pass. It won't affect anyone else's commute. If the middle lane is closed, we will all be forced to drive at the speed of the slowest vehicle. That is my point.
maybe on a nice sunny, dry day traffic can move 20kph above limit, but I was referring to weather conditions during when this accident happened. I'd happily drive at limit in those condition in the right lane...and well if it's a stretch of one lane each way...like I said you should've left a few minutes earlier for work.

This decision is going to cost society more in wasted time than potential lives saved. North Shore residents are among the most educated and wealthiest in the country. We do not like when things work sub-optimally.

The optimized flow of traffic depends on faster vehicles being able to get around slower vehicles. Hogging the fast lane. Suboptimal. Driving next to another car on a 2 lane road. Suboptimal. Closing the middle lane of a perfectly safe bridge. Suboptimal.
Flying cars? opitmAL...Cars that give you a back masssage? optimAL Transportation tubes seen in Futurama? optimAL

Elitist much? just buy a helicopter if you are among the wealthiest Canadians...all your snob problems solved.

[spyker]

Elitist much? just buy a helicopter if you are among the wealthiest Canadians...all your snob problems solved.

Ya no kidding,what marco fails to realize is,general public safety is alot higher on the priority list vs. catering to a bunch of rich snobs on the northshore.

Since they are so rich,educated and don't like things subpar,perhaps they should pay for a new bridge on their own dime.

[Redlines_Daily]

Imagine being stuck behind some bozo doing the speed limit

Is this guy for real?? :seriously:

In other threads you bitch at people who park in lots after hours, scolding them that they don't have a right to park wherever they want, and they should follow the rules. Now you think you have a divine right to speed, break the rules and put other people at risk, and in a thread where two people just died possibly due to speed. :fulloffuck: It's drivers that have such a sense of entitlement, like you, that make the roads dangerous. Please stay off our bridge.

[Gridlock]

Sorry, I can't follow the rest of this conversation with the sounds of an elitist prick beaking off about how North Van is the heart and soul of the entire country.

Just as I was nodding along with some of the things you were saying we have to dip back into douche level.

[InvisibleSoul]

Just saying: Dont click the spoiler if you're going to get offended and start failing my post.
"This is 1 click , 20 seconds of your 20 year life will be wasted. Don't judge me when you DONT KNOW ME!" haah.

I've been T-Boned before by a car going 80-ish. Full speed. My Car ended up with a huge dent. Totalled, but had there been a passenger, they would've walked away with maybe a broken arm.

It did NOT pancake like that Mazda 6. How fast were these idiots going?

Also. I don't think that passenger made it out in one piece. I've been to the ICBC Yard in Queens Borough. There was a 7 Series that looked just like that. According to one of the Yard security guys, there were still chunks of the passengers in that car. Eugh.

Your comparison is completely irrelevant.

First of all, if you were just t-boned by another vehicle going 80km, the total speed of the impact is 80km. In this case, the cars were headed towards each other when the Mazda6 spun sideways. Assuming the bus was going 60km and the Mazda6 was even just going 80km, the total speed associated with the impact if 140km.

Secondly, were you t-boned by a bus or a vehicle similar in size and weight? It makes it that much more different. I did the physics analysis several pages back. The bus is ten times the weight of the car. Even if the car was going twice as fast as the bus, the bus has 5x more momentum. I'm not 100% sure of this part, but I believe that would mean the car absorbs 5x more of the impact. Bottom line is your car is going to look way worse getting t-boned by a bus versus getting t-boned by a car.

[Lomac]

It's not just the bridge, it's the entire causeway section through Stanley Park also. There is a huge amount of frustration being caught behind a slow driver on LGB,

So deal with it, then. There will always be slow drivers, regardless of what road you're on. Try driving up one of the hills on the Coquihalla when two trucks are driving side by side, blocking both lanes. You think you're losing on time on the Lions Gate Bridge? That is nothing compared to this. 30km/hr up a 4km long, 20* grade hill is a freakin' looooooooong time, especially when the limit is 110.

And as has already been pointed out, the extra lane in the causeway is only open for one direction, so already right there you have one section stuck in a single lane for the entire route.

Don't get me wrong; I think it would be a stupid move to completely shut down the middle lane, but you're making all the wrong arguments (or, at least, saying them in a manner that makes your opinion appear inane).

[UFO]

It's easy as this. Was there any concern about safety by keeping 3 lanes open at all times prior to this incident? Not that I had heard about. Now that we've had a death due to possible irresponsible behaviour, does that make what was once considered safe no longer safe? It doesn't need to get more complicated than that. Illogical knee jerk reactions are annoying, especially when it comes from those who have been trusted to make decisions on behalf of the population.

All this talk about being stuck behind a slow driver in single lane traffic, what speed cars actually drive at on the causeway and bridge deck, are more or less irrelevant.

[Marco911]

maybe on a nice sunny, dry day traffic can move 20kph above limit, but I was referring to weather conditions during when this accident happened. I'd happily drive at limit in those condition in the right lane...and well if it's a stretch of one lane each way...like I said you should've left a few minutes earlier for work.

If you stay in the slow lane and don't block faster traffic, I don't have an issue with that. Nobody is pushing for driving anything faster than is reasonable and prudent for the conditions.

[Marco911]

Ya no kidding,what marco fails to realize is,general public safety is alot higher on the priority list vs. catering to a bunch of rich snobs on the northshore.

Since they are so rich,educated and don't like things subpar,perhaps they should pay for a new bridge on their own dime.

Really? Are you aware that the highest accident and fatality rate occurs during rush hour? If this is about "general public safety" being the priority, why don't we close the center lane during rush hour and just slow everything down?

[Marco911]

Is this guy for real?? :seriously:

In other threads you bitch at people who park in lots after hours, scolding them that they don't have a right to park wherever they want, and they should follow the rules. Now you think you have a divine right to speed, break the rules and put other people at risk, and in a thread where two people just died possibly due to speed. :fulloffuck: It's drivers that have such a sense of entitlement, like you, that make the roads dangerous. Please stay off our bridge.

There is an important difference between the two which you obviously fail to see. Abusing visitor parking affects the convenience of others and shows no consideration for the rights of others. My busting a few speed limit and passing slower traffic does not affect anyone else.

As far as the concept of putting "other people at risk," I completely disagree.
Your argument is akin to me asking you to drive your car less frequently because every time you get behind the wheel, you put other people's lives at risk.

I'd rather drive at a reasonable and prudent speed which keeps my mind alert, which allows me to see more, evaluate potential threats, and react quicker.
In case you haven't noticed, driving the speed limit is mind-numbingly boring. BC drivers are the slowest in the country yet we have twice the accident and fatality rate as drivers in Ontario, which are FAR FAR more "aggressive" drivers than British Columbians.

[Marco911]

Sorry, I can't follow the rest of this conversation with the sounds of an elitist prick beaking off about how North Van is the heart and soul of the entire country.

Just as I was nodding along with some of the things you were saying we have to dip back into douche level.

How exactly am I being a douche for shooting down the arguments of those who think that economics of time does not matter? Any economist worth his salt would make the exact same calculation of the cost to society of wasting people's time.

Do you think the fact that people who fly First Class who get priority boarding -that means getting ahead of the line so you don't have to wait for the people in coach to stuff their bags in the overhead compartment is douchey? Do you think the fact that "priority" bags are first of the conveyor belt to save a couple of minutes is douchey? It's a basic economic principle that time starts to become more valuable as income rises. How does it make me a douche for pointing that out?

[Marco911]

So deal with it, then. There will always be slow drivers, regardless of what road you're on. Try driving up one of the hills on the Coquihalla when two trucks are driving side by side, blocking both lanes. You think you're losing on time on the Lions Gate Bridge? That is nothing compared to this. 30km/hr up a 4km long, 20* grade hill is a freakin' looooooooong time, especially when the limit is 110.

And as has already been pointed out, the extra lane in the causeway is only open for one direction, so already right there you have one section stuck in a single lane for the entire route.

Don't get me wrong; I think it would be a stupid move to completely shut down the middle lane, but you're making all the wrong arguments (or, at least, saying them in a manner that makes your opinion appear inane).

There is a difference between getting delayed due to real CONSTRAINTS, or unforeseen circumstances vs. being delayed because of inefficient process or some dumb politician decided to impose an artificial constraint for no good reason.

If my arguments are wrong, they'd be easy to refute. Often the truth of the matter is a bitter pill to swallow. I am not running for political office, so I don't exactly have to be diplomatic in how I put forth my points.

[Marco911]

All this talk about being stuck behind a slow driver in single lane traffic, what speed cars actually drive at on the causeway and bridge deck, are more or less irrelevant.

That's a good point. When Google finally rolls out their robotic cars and they are all networked with each other, do you think that it would be possible for us to travel faster albeit in a safer manner? So speed really isn't the root cause, is it? The real cause of most accidents is not speed, it is driver error. Driver error could be due to a lack of training, lack of recovery skills, lack of predictive skills and yes, misjudging a safe speed to drive at. A number arbitrarily posted on a sign is a worthwhile guidance, but it does by no means guarantee the optimized outcome.

[Rdk1]

That's a good point. When Google finally rolls out their robotic cars and they are all networked with each other, do you think that it would be possible for us to travel faster albeit in a safer manner? So speed really isn't the root cause, is it? The real cause of most accidents is not speed, it is driver error. Driver error could be due to a lack of training, lack of recovery skills, lack of predictive skills and yes, misjudging a safe speed to drive at. A number arbitrarily posted on a sign is a worthwhile guidance, but it does by no means guarantee the optimized outcome.

I believe everyone should go through Finland's driving test before allowed on the road.

especially Asian females. :fuckthatshit:

[Jegz]

Rest in paradise. Wasn't too close with Jo but condolences goes to his family and friends. Truly a tragic accident to lose your life at such a young age. Drive safe everyone. Life is too precious guys; cherish it.

[a00755836]

Rip jowin and tom. Jowin had the funniest laugh chuckle.

[Phil@rise]

I was tryin so hard not to post here anymore cus I know my opinions offended some that werent in the right frame of mind but for cryin out loud! Marco911 can you just drive off a fuckin bridge.
If its believed that closing the middle lane will save lives then do it and heres why....
In your world everyone should follow along like sheep at 100mph cus you can drive that fast and your Little Bo Fuckin Peep and if everyone is driving that fast its a safer world for you to be in. Correct?
NO not everyones car can handle that rate of speed on every road. Cars, roads and people are full of variables and not all can be accounted for, not even you can account for all the variables. Imagine a Nissan Micra tryin to keep up to you. As such a margin of error must be accounted for and some lee way put in place. Problem here is you have IDIOTS (yeah I said it again) like you who believe that they know all and can drive like the bloody Stig himself,you cant. Its not a closed road course with variables eliminated. So slow the fuck down take that exra minute to make the whole crossing and we all live a little longer.
Yeah I'm bein a dink again deal with it. I'm hangry.

[Lomac]

There is a difference between getting delayed due to real CONSTRAINTS, or unforeseen circumstances vs. being delayed because of inefficient process or some dumb politician decided to impose an artificial constraint for no good reason.

If my arguments are wrong, they'd be easy to refute. Often the truth of the matter is a bitter pill to swallow. I am not running for political office, so I don't exactly have to be diplomatic in how I put forth my points.

But there already are artificial constraints on the LGB/SP Causeway: speed limits and a middle lane that changes its flow of traffic on set schedules. I'm not disputing the fact that shutting down the middle lane completely is utterly stupid. However, because the middle lane rotates it's flow of traffic based on actual need, it's usually pretty damn predictable to figure out what way is open at any given time of the day. As a result, you should be able to adjust your schedule accordingly. If you're going against the flow of traffic, leave a couple minutes earlier. Or if you're going with the flow, leave on time.

The point I here is that because it's organized, you can plan your required driving time accordingly. You can't plan a trip thinking will I or will I not get stuck behind a pair of trucks going up a hill on Hwy5 (or any other similar type of constraint).

[Marco911]

I was tryin so hard not to post here anymore cus I know my opinions offended some that werent in the right frame of mind but for cryin out loud! Marco911 can you just drive off a fuckin bridge.
If its believed that closing the middle lane will save lives then do it and heres why....

Do you think we should close the middle lane during rush hour, which is when collisions and the fatality rates peak?


In your world everyone should follow along like sheep at 100mph cus you can drive that fast and your Little Bo Fuckin Peep and if everyone is driving that fast its a safer world for you to be in. Correct?

Wrong. Nice strawman argument. My argument is as follows:

1) Drive at a speed that is reasonable and prudent. Reasonable and prudent does not necessarily mean following the speed limit. When traffic is moving much faster than the speed limit, it is safer to drive at the speed of traffic flow in your lane of travel. When there is adverse road conditions, it is safer to drive slower than the speed limit.

2) Drive in a manner that minimizes one's traffic footprint by allowing faster vehicles to pass. That means do not drive next to someone for extended lengths of time, or block the fast lane unless passing.

If the middle lane is closed on LGB, faster traffic can't pass, people will drive too close to each other, and you will see that rear end collisions will increase.



NO not everyones car can handle that rate of speed on every road. Cars, roads and people are full of variables and not all can be accounted for, not even you can account for all the variables. Imagine a Nissan Micra tryin to keep up to you. As such a margin of error must be accounted for and some lee way put in place. Problem here is you have IDIOTS (yeah I said it again) like you who believe that they know all and can drive like the bloody Stig himself,you cant. Its not a closed road course with variables eliminated. So slow the fuck down take that exra minute to make the whole crossing and we all live a little longer.
Yeah I'm bein a dink again deal with it. I'm hangry.

Does driving the speed limit guarantee, one won't be involved in a road collision or death? No it doesn't. Besides, there are a lot of studies that show that when the speed limit on highways are raised to the speed that traffic actually flows at, fatality rates decrease.

[Marco911]

But there already are artificial constraints on the LGB/SP Causeway: speed limits and a middle lane that changes its flow of traffic on set schedules.

1) The speed limit isn't a constraint at all.
2) Middle lane closures due to the counter-traffic flow is acceptable. Middle lane closure due to the nanny state is not.


I'm not disputing the fact that shutting down the middle lane completely is utterly stupid. However, because the middle lane rotates it's flow of traffic based on actual need, it's usually pretty damn predictable to figure out what way is open at any given time of the day. As a result, you should be able to adjust your schedule accordingly. If you're going against the flow of traffic, leave a couple minutes earlier. Or if you're going with the flow, leave on time.


This assumes that people drive bust the speed limit to meet a schedule. Most people bust the speed limit because they drive at what they feel is a comfortable reasonable speed. Most times, it is.


The point I here is that because it's organized, you can plan your required driving time accordingly. You can't plan a trip thinking will I or will I not get stuck behind a pair of trucks going up a hill on Hwy5 (or any other similar type of constraint).

A pair of trucks going up a hill is not a constraint. It is bad, inconsiderate driving by the truck driver attempting the make the pass.

[hpw912]

Nope, the bridge was built with 2 lanes back in the 1930's :troll:
http://hp.bccna.bc.ca/Library/WestVan/history/Photos/Lions_Gate/1658driving.jpg

but I agree. The Province decided to widen it for a reason...and it should be utilized.

now that is dangerous imo!

[GabAlmighty]

When I drive, everyone moves out of my way.

[T4RAWR]

When I drive, everyone moves out of my way.

cummins or yota? :fullofwin:

[bobbinka]

Wrong. Nice strawman argument. My argument is as follows:

1) Drive at a speed that is reasonable and prudent. Reasonable and prudent does not necessarily mean following the speed limit. When traffic is moving much faster than the speed limit, it is safer to drive at the speed of traffic flow in your lane of travel. When there is adverse road conditions, it is safer to drive slower than the speed limit.

2) Drive in a manner that minimizes one's traffic footprint by allowing faster vehicles to pass. That means do not drive next to someone for extended lengths of time, or block the fast lane unless passing.


what is considered reasonable and prudent on the bridge? on the main road? on a side street? your definition of reasonable and prudent is not the same as someone else's. you seem to have that problem solved by asking slower drivers to allow faster vehicles to past. but you ALSO state that when traffic is moving much faster than the speed limit, it is safer to drive at the speed of traffic flow. by this logic, the fastest driver on the road will always be the one who sets the pace and all slower drivers should follow him/her

if some idiot was going 100km down a road with a 50km speed limit, should the rest of traffic also follow at that speed because then it would be safer? or is that not considered reasonable and prudent?

in the end, the ultimate question is "what do YOU think the speed limit should be on every single road that exists?" because that is essentially what you are getting at, that whatever you feel is reasonable and prudent should also go for everyone else.

"people who drive slower than me are idiots, and people who drive faster than me are maniacs" - does that sound like you?

[hk20000]

what is considered reasonable and prudent on the bridge? on the main road? on a side street? your definition of reasonable and prudent is not the same as someone else's. you seem to have that problem solved by asking slower drivers to allow faster vehicles to past. but you ALSO state that when traffic is moving much faster than the speed limit, it is safer to drive at the speed of traffic flow. by this logic, the fastest driver on the road will always be the one who sets the pace and all slower drivers should follow him/her

if some idiot was going 100km down a road with a 50km speed limit, should the rest of traffic also follow at that speed because then it would be safer? or is that not considered reasonable and prudent?

in the end, the ultimate question is "what do YOU think the speed limit should be on every single road that exists?" because that is essentially what you are getting at, that whatever you feel is reasonable and prudent should also go for everyone else.

"people who drive slower than me are idiots, and people who drive faster than me are maniacs" - does that sound like you?

Wow this got totally off topic quickly. Read what you typed and read the title of the thread. :ahwow:

[Phil@rise]

Wrong. Nice strawman argument. My argument is as follows:

1) Drive at a speed that is reasonable and prudent. Reasonable and prudent does not necessarily mean following the speed limit. When traffic is moving much faster than the speed limit, it is safer to drive at the speed of traffic flow in your lane of travel. When there is adverse road conditions, it is safer to drive slower than the speed limit.

Hows this for strawman then?
Reasonable and prudent is different for all level of drivers and all levels of cars hence the problem. Hence the solution put all drivers on public roads at the same level.
In your world everyone would drive a modern car with modern traction aids and follow along at what you deem reasonable and prudent. Hell in my world that would be the case too but not everyone is a stellar driver not everyone drives a stunning example of automotive engineering. Some people are idiots and some cars are shitboxes.

[bing]

Lions Gate fatal crash - News Hour - Videos | Global BC (http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/lions+gate+fatal+crash/video.html?v=2311232479#stories)

I'm just throwing this out there to give a current glimpse of the traffic patterns during the day.

Also, to clear up misconceptions on the speed limit on the bridge, I see two signs: one posted on the bridge heading into Vancouver at 60km/hr and another one coming off the bridge into West/North Van at 50km/hr.

On a somewhat related note, if we were all about saving the maximum number of lives, there were 45 suicide deaths from 1991-2007, which is probably far higher than the number of traffic fatalities.

[shenmecar]

12 pages long and lots of drama. Its apparent that people have their own style of driving that they consider "safe". Since "safe" is subjective to the person. Then can't we all just drive the way we think is "safe". We are all here commenting in this thread, it means that our perception of "safe" at least keeps us out of fatal accidents. Lets just keep it at that then? I don't want to hear news stories like this for awhile. Its depressing.

Otherwise, carry on.

I'm just getting this ready:
http://www.simplyrecipes.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/popcorn.jpg

[Phil@rise]

On a somewhat related note, if we were all about saving the maximum number of lives, there were 45 suicide deaths from 1991-2007, which is probably far higher than the number of traffic fatalities.

Let em jump they're holding up traffic lol

[Marco911]

what is considered reasonable and prudent on the bridge? on the main road? on a side street? your definition of reasonable and prudent is not the same as someone else's. you seem to have that problem solved by asking slower drivers to allow faster vehicles to past. but you ALSO state that when traffic is moving much faster than the speed limit, it is safer to drive at the speed of traffic flow. by this logic, the fastest driver on the road will always be the one who sets the pace and all slower drivers should follow him/her

Most drivers are familiar with the streets they drive on. It is perfectly reasonable to think that they can come up with a reasonable and prudent speed to drive at taking conditions into account.

Driving at the speed of traffic flow is just that. There will be some moving slower, and some moving faster. Like most things in life, traffic speeds will follow a normal distribution. If you drive at the outliers of this distribution, either too fast, or too slow, you are at increased risk. If lanes are clear for faster traffic to pass, this decreases overall risk. If slower drivers think they are entitled to block faster traffic, this increases risk.


if some idiot was going 100km down a road with a 50km speed limit, should the rest of traffic also follow at that speed because then it would be safer? or is that not considered reasonable and prudent?

That would be an outlier. It would be safer to have a lane open for the 100 km/h drivers to pass then for them to come flying up behind a car doing 10 km/h below the speed limit.


in the end, the ultimate question is "what do YOU think the speed limit should be on every single road that exists?" because that is essentially what you are getting at, that whatever you feel is reasonable and prudent should also go for everyone else.


I _accept_ that speed limits need to exist. I accept that there should be enforcement of the limit. I think the present penalties far exceed the nature of the offence and thus there should be selective enforcement. Perhaps those travelling above the 95th percentile range. If the limit is 50, and most cars are driving between 60 and 70, I think enforcement should start above 70. Currently, it's more about entrapment then anything else - enforcement at the bottom of hills or where the highway changes to a slower limit.

"people who drive slower than me are idiots, and people who drive faster than me are maniacs" - does that sound like you?

I don't have a problem with people who drive slower as long as they are not holding up traffic flow. There is PLENTY of space on the road, with enough cooperation people can easily drive in a way that lets faster traffic by. That is why Germany is such a pleasant place to drive. People accept that there will be faster traffic around and do not block drivers wanting to pass.

[Marco911]

Hows this for strawman then?
Reasonable and prudent is different for all level of drivers and all levels of cars hence the problem. Hence the solution put all drivers on public roads at the same level.
In your world everyone would drive a modern car with modern traction aids and follow along at what you deem reasonable and prudent. Hell in my world that would be the case too but not everyone is a stellar driver not everyone drives a stunning example of automotive engineering. Some people are idiots and some cars are shitboxes.

That solution of trying to have everyone drive at the same speed does not work. Why should I be forced to drive my 911 at the same speed as a logging truck or dump truck on the highway?

There is also driver psychology. A driver who feels that it is reasonable and prudent to be driving at 70 in a 50 will become infuriated if he is stuck behind drivers doing 45-50. Especially when they know they are blocked because of bad driving rather than constraints in infrastructure or from heavy traffic. Nothing more frustrating than seeing two people driving beside each other for an extended period with a clear road ahead. This leads to rash moves like unsafe passing, or tailgating.

The *real* solution is to reduce speed variances within lanes and drive in a manner that keeps the roads clear for faster traffic.

[!Kodamu]

LiveLeak.com - Arab Drift: Hyundai Elantra Slams Into Truck (2 Angles)


Damage looks similar and that has got to be going more then 80km/h

[jlenko]

I drove it today. It's 60 on the bridge and the causeway... but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone - including the bus drivers - that does less than 80.

I'm still curious how fast this Mazda was going to lose control. Even if you close the middle lane, a car that is that out of control will end up in front of a bus in the next lane over. Go ahead and close the f'n lane, someone else will still end up dead. Waste of time. (just like this argument)

[GabAlmighty]

When I drive, everyone moves out of my way.

Both ;)

[Rdk1]

The truck looks like it's almost fully stopped. Can't imagine how much harder the 6 hit that bus when it's travelling the other direction at speed :\

[-Z-]

I dont give idiots gratitude or respect but meh if you respect idiots thats fine I guess. I doesnt say much good for you.
The only tragedy I see here is how their selfish stupid behaviour will forever negatively effect those directly involved (witnesses, paramedics, rescue crews etc) Those are who I respect.
The image of shattered bodies and twisted metal, the screams and moans of pain are with you forever. Those who deal with the aftermath of idiots have to live with that.
I have no respect for idiots.

You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!

[ilvtofu]

You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!

Anchorman Brick: I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT / LOUD NOISES - YouTube

[StylinRed]

That solution of trying to have everyone drive at the same speed does not work. Why should I be forced to drive my 911 at the same speed as a logging truck or dump truck on the highway?

There is also driver psychology. A driver who feels that it is reasonable and prudent to be driving at 70 in a 50 will become infuriated if he is stuck behind drivers doing 45-50. Especially when they know they are blocked because of bad driving rather than constraints in infrastructure or from heavy traffic. Nothing more frustrating than seeing two people driving beside each other for an extended period with a clear road ahead. This leads to rash moves like unsafe passing, or tailgating.

The *real* solution is to reduce speed variances within lanes and drive in a manner that keeps the roads clear for faster traffic.


You mean

http://www.wpclipart.com/travel/US_Road_Signs/regulation/reg_4/slower_traffic_keep_right.png

I would agree we should have more of those placed around our streets and police to enforce that
(you could have saved pages and pages of arguments and replies by just getting straight to the point instead of looking like a douche...)


You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!

sorry for your loss, you're very new around here, likely the first time you were on RS; it hurts to read comments but you'll have to realize that's how the online community is, especially so on this website... although it's actually been very tame compared to usual, since so many people knew the deceased; your best bet would be to just ignore the disrespectful comments, to poke at it would just be opening a can of worms; that's the internet for you

[fT-z33wor]

You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iLbS-5dQh84/ULfBPdFES-I/AAAAAAAADjQ/rWa-E47fhUA/s1600/dis-gun-be-good.gif

[tofu1413]

I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter.

i think he is the boss :badpokerface:

[fT-z33wor]

i think he is the boss :badpokerface:

http://i.qkme.me/35pm4y.jpg

[Great68]

. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter.

:gtfo:

[Phil@rise]

You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!
Come visit then. I didnt say they deserved to die. Dont put words in my mouth nor threaten me. I stand behind everything I have said in this thread. I'm sorry you are reeling from your loss I am not sorry for my opinions.

[SpuGen]

Didn't one of them start that Facebook hate group against that Girl, Caroline Hui?
Then basically got a whole bunch of people to bully her both online and at school?

Good people huh?

[fT-z33wor]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu8hc8EyG21qei7f5o2_250.gif

[guddagudd]

That's fucking horrible ^ ^

[Rdk1]

Didn't one of them start that Facebook hate group against that Girl, Caroline Hui?
Then basically got a whole bunch of people to bully her both online and at school?

Good people huh?

wow really? damn. I thought that was started by a girl.

[TypeRNammer]

I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!

Daniel Bryan No! No! No! - YouTube

[Drow]

Didn't one of them start that Facebook hate group against that Girl, Caroline Hui?
Then basically got a whole bunch of people to bully her both online and at school?

Good people huh?

heh i rmb that. now i rmb where i remembered him from. I was bitching at the group who was poking fun at her, he was part of it...

rip tho

[The_AK]

You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a555/BoomPowSurprise13/30236_zps1382bf3f.gif

[Akinari]

Wow, this thread is still going? :badpokerface:

[Gridlock]

You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!

I don't think anyone here would dare to say that they deserved to die, and they would be run off the board if they did.

"don't judge them on this ONE MATTER"

Ok, so we have ALLEGEDLY ascertained that they were driving recklessly on a bridge when the accident occurred, ALLEGEDLY sold drugs in a dial-a-dope operation and ALLEGEDLY took part in a mass online bullying campaign.

Why don't you tell us what matters we can use here?

Let this be a lesson to you. I don't care what you believe in, or what you think happens when you die, but here's something to consider: what legacy do you want to leave behind? Sometimes you may never get a chance to right your wrongs.

I don't see any of their friends here saying, "you know, he made some mistakes, but was working on being a better person." All I see is people fighting harder to revise history, your stupid post included.

Don't yell at people because they refuse to see the angel you did.

[Phil@rise]

couldnt have said it better myself!

[fT-z33wor]

This thread delivers. I would like to personally thank all the posters for making it possible, especially -Z- lol.

[Yodamaster]

You are a very VERY arrogant and disrespectful person. It's fine to express your own opinions of this matter, but DO NOT start name calling others especially the deceased. How would you like it if your son or daughter got in an accident like this, REGARDLESS of the fact they were speeding or not, and people call them "idiots" or say things such as "they deserve to die" and such. You had no idea what kind of person they were, dont judge them on this ONE MATTER. We all made mistakes, but we are all alive now meaning we didnt pay for it with our LIFE. The driver was like a little brother to me, i am still very very sad because of this accident, and i still will be even years after. I DO NOT appreciate you calling him names like that, I think it's very rude to do so. I DEMAND, STRONGLY DEMAND an apology from you, or I shall be visiting your company to have a little chat with your boss about this matter. Please, DO NOT disrespect the DECEASED, they may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to us!!!


http://i.imgur.com/odiwj.gif

[cruz-in]

i need a refill on pop corn please.

[- kT]

I don't see any of their friends here saying, "you know, he made some mistakes, but was working on being a better person." All I see is people fighting harder to revise history, your stupid post included.

Don't yell at people because they refuse to see the angel you did.

first off, gridlock: not directed at you, more of a general statement

nobody's an angel. nobody. every single person on this planet has broken the law or the rules at one point or another, be it big or small

it's not my place to refute nor confirm any of the claims made in this thread, but let me just ask one general question. you don't need to grace anybody with an answer, just give it some thought: how would you feel if a friend of yours passed on too early, and people started making general claims about their past, be it accurate or not. wouldn't you be upset? half this thread has been speculation, judgement and a bit of criticism. for two people who still had their whole lives to live?

all anybody asks for when a friend passes is a little respect. i'll leave it at that.
Posted via RS Mobile

[subordinate]

I think bullying is a bigger dick move than getting a regular speeding violation.

[inv4zn]

^This thread really shows how widely different people's opinions, and essentially their life principles are.

Save for the few idiots who added comic relief to the thread, much of the debate and heated words in this thread are just a difference of opinion really.

I didn't know the two deceased, and therefore don't have much attachment to their tragic end; but I don't agree with being so blunt as Phil ceremoniously was throughout the entire thread either

Was it disrespectful to speak of two young lives lost as objectively and blatantly possible, knowing there are people grieving in the community (re: RS)? Yes, probably. But then again it doesn't sound like the two were stellar examples of good ethics and responsibility either.

If, hypothetically, this wasn't RS and was just a news site with comments enabled, and you saw "disrespectful" remarks, would you feel the same way? I write disrespectful because again, while to you it may seem so to others it may be completely warranted.

I, for one, would like this thread locked now because it's no longer about the accident that occurred, and has turned into a pissing contest between individuals who are clashing needlessly and telling people who don't agree they're wrong, when clearly neither side is right/wrong.

If they were your friends, mourn their deaths without trying to blindly defend their collective history, and accept the fact that they may have made mistakes that are going to be criticized.

If they weren't your friends, you're more than entitled to feel a certain way about their actions that lead to their deaths, but understand that there are ways to convey your thoughts and opinions without offending people needlessly and coming off as a brute asshole.

[Gridlock]

first off, gridlock: not directed at you, more of a general statement

nobody's an angel. nobody. every single person on this planet has broken the law or the rules at one point or another, be it big or small

it's not my place to refute nor confirm any of the claims made in this thread, but let me just ask one general question. you don't need to grace anybody with an answer, just give it some thought: how would you feel if a friend of yours passed on too early, and people started making general claims about their past, be it accurate or not. wouldn't you be upset? half this thread has been speculation, judgement and a bit of criticism. for two people who still had their whole lives to live?

all anybody asks for when a friend passes is a little respect. i'll leave it at that.
Posted via RS Mobile

Oh, I get your thoughts, and I respect your thoughts on the subject.

MY issue is the way that people are trying to gain that respect, and express their anger over some of the things in this thread, pure and simple.

(big point)Is it sad they died? Fuck yes. My condolences go out to anyone who knew them.

I don't think there is much value in going around threatening people for an apology because they refuse to accept that maybe they weren't saints. Do I care they weren't saints? No. Refer to (big point) above. Either give it up in this thread, and move on, or acknowledge that they had some life skills to master, and the time they had to do so was cut short because of a stupid mistake.

Don't fight the truth here. Learn from it. Are you an asshole? Now's the time to stop. Do you race over bridges taking yours and others life in your own hands? Maybe you should stop. Do you park in handi-capped spaces? Maybe you should start parking in a regular spot. Is your legacy for your friends, family and strangers alike in a condition that you are proud of? Maybe now is the time to change it.

Yelling at people that didn't know them because they refuse to see past an ALLEGED record isn't going to bring your friends back, or change a thing. That's what people have to go on. Can I ASSUME that they were great guys at heart that made some mistakes? Sure. But unfortunately that's ALLEGED as well.

[Akinari]

i need a refill on pop corn please.
more like 3 :badpokerface:

[GLOW]

a lot of new accounts with 1 post in this thread. :suspicious:

[fT-z33wor]

^This thread really shows how widely different people's opinions, and essentially their life principles are.

Save for the few idiots who added comic relief to the thread, much of the debate and heated words in this thread are just a difference of opinion really.

I didn't know the two decreased, and therefore don't have much attachment to their tragic end; but I don't agree with being so blunt as Phil ceremoniously was throughout the entire thread either

Was it disrespectful to speak of two young lives lost as objectively and blatantly possible, knowing there are people grieving in the community (re: RS)? Yes, probably. But then again it doesn't sound like the two were stellar examples of good ethics and responsibility either.

If, hypothetically, this wasn't RS and was just a news site with comments enabled, and you saw "disrespectful" remarks, would you feel the same way? I write disrespectful because again, while to you it may seem so to others it may be completely warranted.

I, for one, would like this thread locked now because it's no longer about the accident that occurred, and has turned into a pissing contest between individuals who are clashing needlessly and telling people who don't agree they're wrong, when clearly neither side is right/wrong.

If they were your friends, mourn their deaths without trying to blindly defend their collective history, and accept the fact that they may have made mistakes that are going to be criticized.

If they weren't your friends, you're more than entitled to feel a certain way about their actions that lead to their deaths, but understand that there are ways to convey your thoughts and opinions without offending people needlessly and coming off as a brute asshole.

You articulated that so well I would thank you twice if I could, but at the same time I don't want to see this thread closed because the pissing contest has become such an invaluable source of entertainment :lol

[Marco911]

Ok, so we have ALLEGEDLY ascertained that they were driving recklessly on a bridge when the accident occurred, ALLEGEDLY sold drugs in a dial-a-dope operation and ALLEGEDLY took part in a mass online bullying campaign.

There's nothing alleged about it. He was a convicted drug dealer. And not some guy that happened to sell some dope to friends and acquaintances. He was part of an organised criminal enterprise.

Since I did not know either of them, there should be zero expectation for me to mourn their passing.

I am rather chuffed about the legacy that they possibly leave behind. - having the middle lane shut down on LGB just before midnight.

[freakshow]

This thread is classic.. Someone dies that no one knows, everyone wouldn't hesitate to give their real opinions. Someone dies that some people know, they all come and cry foul.

Look, if one of my friends passed away for speeding on a bridge and smashing into a bus of innocent people, the last place I would go is RS. It's the internet, of course it's going to be bad, and it might even be true.
It doesn't matter if they were angels or demons, if they were my friend, I would take the time to mourn, but I certainly wouldn't go on RS demanding that from others.

Some posters here just reek of naivety..

[Graeme S]

Alrighty, little thread. You've had your fun, you've run around and pulled down the curtains. Now it's time to go to bed.


Forever.