[hotjoint]

SkyTrain won't take bus transfers | Vancouver 24 hrs (http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2013/08/13/skytrain-wont-take-bus-transfers-with-new-compass-card-system)

Yet another :failed: by translink... so users who have bus tickets will have to pay again once they board the skytrain. WTF!

[murd0c]

Translink is a fucken joke...

[Acura604]

apparently, they (drivers/translink/union) knew about this 2 yrs ago but no one really paid any attention to it back then.

[i-VTEC]

My friend who works at the hospital and they have group employee transit pass, it will be canceled due the compass pass. I wonder will they also cancel UPass? haha

[b0unce. [?]]

Basically TransLink is saying "get fucked".

[Razor Ramon HG]

Oh that's fucking garbage... here in Korea, you can transfer between buses and subway stations with a 30 minute window. It's just convenient for everyone.

EDIT: Misleading title.. read through the article, and it's the same in Korea. If you pay with cash, the box doesn't print out a ticket. No one seems to care.. then again, everyone uses a transit card here.

[i-VTEC]

I dont know why translink had to introduce the compass card but they could have use the same system that the bus uses to validate the tickets. Insert the ticket, if valid, sliding door opens, if invalid remain closed.

Edit: perhaps they are trying to save print out ticket papers.

[Soundy]

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA this is awesome, I love it when people bitch and whine and moan that "Oh, they should do it THIS way", and then when that finally comes about and things don't work they way they used to, then they bitch and whine and moan that the old way was better.

Everyone griped endlessly about the zone system and "ooo, we should have a card that just deducts from your account, like they have in <insert foreign country>!" Okay, well you have your fuggen card system now, and things have to work differently... and you don't like it. STFU.

Same fuggen thing happened with the cell companies and three-year contracts - "consumer groups" managed to get things changed to get rid and three-year contracts, and guess what? Plan prices are going up. Nice work, fuckheads.

I can't wait to see what the next not-perfect-but-still-pretty-good thing gets fucked up by these whiny "I want everything and I want it now and I want it free" pricks.

[dachinesedude]

why introduce the system when they cant afford to upgrade their whole fleet? i dont get it

[stewie]

if I was a bus driver id purposely let everyone on ride for free

those who need to pay an 8$ 3 zone bus pass to get to train that will take them downtown (im mainly thinking of people in surrey white rock Langley delta pitt ridge areas) get to the train to pay another 5-8$ on a train ticket to get downtown.....and coming home is the same...30$ round trip to get to work....fuck that

[Soundy]

why introduce the system when they cant afford to upgrade their whole fleet? i dont get it

Because people have been bitching and whining and moaning for it. Nobody's content to let things get done in their proper time, they want it NOW. So instead of the entire thing being rolled out at once, you get it in bits and pieces, and have to deal with incompatibilities during that crossover time.

[ziggyx]

My friend who works at the hospital and they have group employee transit pass, it will be canceled due the compass pass. I wonder will they also cancel UPass? haha

I heard they are also getting rid of the upasses
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[FerrariEnzo]

WHY cant translink learn from OTHER well establish countries transit system that works flawlessly... like HongKong for example... 1 re-loadable card for ALL transit system.... not only will save money in the long run (from wasting paper for those single use transfers), its also convenient for travelers...

[Tapioca]

Well, this is supposed to be an incentive to get a Compass card.

In most other systems in the world, cash fares are the most expensive.
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[Soundy]

WHY cant translink learn from OTHER well establish countries transit system that works flawlessly... like HongKong for example... 1 re-loadable card for ALL transit system.... not only will save money in the long run (from wasting paper for those single use transfers), its also convenient for travelers...

But that's the point: people have been bitching for years for them to do this... so now they are. But the buses still need to have some way to read and process the cards. They don't yet, but nobody wanted to wait for the ENTIRE SYSTEM to be ready to implement; there's been massive public pressure to simply get the system up and running, so that's what they did.

This is the problem with letting public opinion and pressure dictate policy: those producing all the pressure don't think through the logistics, impact, or consequences of what they're asking for, they just want it done NOW... and if those being pressured try to explain WHY it can't or shouldn't be done right away, they're shouted down as being lazy, or not wanting to change because they benefit more from the existing system, or whatever.

[yray]

inb4 beijing style line ups at skytrain stns during rush hour

[Mr.HappySilp]

To me the biggest issue is that the whole compact pass system is not going to be ready when they roll out. Also there is not enough info. Are they still going to use the Zone system (which is stupid), what about druing rush hour I mean when those gates it is going to take forever to go through and not to mention you have people going in and out at the same time.

[i-VTEC]

They actually had a plan for compass card for the buses too....

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/images/content/fares/compass_card/fill_how_to_use.ashx

Picture was grabbed from Compass Card (http://www.translink.ca/en/Fares-and-Passes/Compass-Card.aspx)

Edit: are they now saying buses will just keep using the paper fare tickets? at least for now?

I guess they ran out of the 25 Million for the whole implementation

[Grandmaster TSE]

they basically want people to use the compass card, just go get one, problem solved

[Tapioca]

To me the biggest issue is that the whole compact pass system is not going to be ready when they roll out. Also there is not enough info. Are they still going to use the Zone system (which is stupid), what about druing rush hour I mean when those gates it is going to take forever to go through and not to mention you have people going in and out at the same time.

I've taken transit systems in the busiest cities in the world (London, HK, NYC, Paris) and the gates themselves are fine. My concern is that there aren't enough of them, particularly at many of the Canada Line stations such as Waterfront or City Centre.

The Compass Card will allow Translink to gather data on trips so that they can implement distance-based pricing. But, of course, this isn't good enough for people who want everything now.

You know who will be hurt by distance-based pricing? People living in Surrey-Langley who have to travel to North Van, for instance. The current zone pricing actually benefits long-distance travellers.
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[BaoTurbo]

if I was a bus driver id purposely let everyone on ride for free

those who need to pay an 8$ 3 zone bus pass to get to train that will take them downtown (im mainly thinking of people in surrey white rock Langley delta pitt ridge areas) get to the train to pay another 5-8$ on a train ticket to get downtown.....and coming home is the same...30$ round trip to get to work....fuck that

Exactly. So if I was going to work even in Vancouver and I'm riding from Richmond; $2.75 for 1 zone trip to the sky train from my house (if prices don't rise that is), then another $4 at skytrain for a 2 zone ticket.

Coming back from work before 6pm its going to be $4 skytrain trip and another $2.75 for bus. So are they saying I need to get this preloaded compass card in order to be more convenient?

[i-VTEC]

they basically want people to use the compass card, just go get one, problem solved

For those who take buses and skytrain to commute to work would be like, solve what?

Everyone will be force to get compass card if you are taking skytrain.

The problem is that people will be paying extra because buses are not equip to validate compass card, so ended up paying for a bus fair, and get charged again on your compass card.

[Tapioca]

For those who take buses and skytrain to commute to work would be like, solve what?

Everyone will be force to get compass card if you are taking skytrain.

The problem is that people will be paying extra because buses are not equip to validate compass card, so ended up paying for a bus fair, and get charged again on your compass card.

What? Reading comprehension fail.

Buses have Compass Card readers. People tap to get on and tap when they get off.

Skytrain stations won't have transfer readers, so people will be forced to pay another cash fare or.... Get a Compass Card! Which is the whole point so that Translink can measure trips to implement distance-based pricing, make better adjustments to bus routes, save money on administering transfers, etc.
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[Mr.HappySilp]

They actually had a plan for compass card for the buses too....

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/images/content/fares/compass_card/fill_how_to_use.ashx

Picture was grabbed from Compass Card (http://www.translink.ca/en/Fares-and-Passes/Compass-Card.aspx)

Edit: are they now saying buses will just keep using the paper fare tickets? at least for now?

I guess they ran out of the 25 Million for the whole implementation

The compact pass scanner is for people to get off. They would scan the compact pass when passenger get off.

From my understanding is that when you get on any skytrain, bus you scan the compact bus and it will dedut the cost of a 3 zone fair and when you get off you scan again and then it will refund you any extra credit it takes off.

Example you travel only 1 zone the system will charge you 3 zone when you get on and when you get off you get refund it. Which is dumb because it is going to be a huge issue during rush hour, what if the system fails to scan it? What if I only have neough for a 2 zone fair and I am only taveling within 2 zones?

[Tapioca]

The compact pass scanner is for people to get off. They would scan the compact pass when passenger get off.

From my understanding is that when you get on any skytrain, bus you scan the compact bus and it will dedut the cost of a 3 zone fair and when you get off you scan again and then it will refund you any extra credit it takes off.

Example you travel only 1 zone the system will charge you 3 zone when you get on and when you get off you get refund it. Which is dumb because it is going to be a huge issue during rush hour, what if the system fails to scan it? What if I only have neough for a 2 zone fair and I am only taveling within 2 zones?

Most other card-based systems allow you to run a negative balance up to a certain amount.

Why can't we just wait until the testing is done? People who design these systems aren't idiots and probably have thought up of all the problems.
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[Mr.HappySilp]

Most other card-based systems allow you to run a negative balance up to a certain amount.

Why can't we just wait until the testing is done? People who design these systems aren't idiots and probably have thought up of all the problems.
Posted via RS Mobile

Not saying they are stupid but sometimes people miss the the most common things IE BC Place sunroof anyone?:okay:

[Gridlock]

Can we all do a solid? Find interesting article, READ IT, and not get upset at what we think the ramifications are but what we know the ramifications are.

You can transfer all you want. IF YOU HAVE A COMPASS CARD

If you are getting onto the bus and pay a cash fare, the bus will not be able to produce a compass card for you.

I personally don't want them to spend $25 million for that! I'm with translink!

What does all this mean?

-For the daily heavy user, they are going to have a monthly pass compass card and it won't affect them.

-For the casual to heavy rider, they are going to have a compass card in their wallet, and it won't affect them.

-For the light transit user that has a compass card with a balance, it STILL won't affect them.

-For the guy that never uses transit, and hops on a bus after throwing some change in the thing and expects to get on the train, he'll do it once and then get a damned card.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Can we all do a solid? Find interesting article, READ IT, and not get upset at what we think the ramifications are but what we know the ramifications are.

You can transfer all you want. IF YOU HAVE A COMPASS CARD

If you are getting onto the bus and pay a cash fare, the bus will not be able to produce a compass card for you.

I personally don't want them to spend $25 million for that! I'm with translink!

What does all this mean? For the daily heavy user, they are going to have a monthly pass compass card and it won't affect them.

For the casual to heavy rider, they are going to have a compass card in their wallet, and it won't affect them.

For the light transit user that has a compass card with a balance, it STILL won't affect them.

For the guy that never uses transit, and hops on a bus after throwing some change in the thing and expects to get on the train, he'll do it once and then get a damned card.

You forgot toruist and the people on welfare or the bums or low income people.

[dhari]

Can we all do a solid? Find interesting article, READ IT, and not get upset at what we think the ramifications are but what we know the ramifications are.

You can transfer all you want. IF YOU HAVE A COMPASS CARD

If you are getting onto the bus and pay a cash fare, the bus will not be able to produce a compass card for you.

I personally don't want them to spend $25 million for that! I'm with translink!

What does all this mean? For the daily heavy user, they are going to have a monthly pass compass card and it won't affect them.

For the casual to heavy rider, they are going to have a compass card in their wallet, and it won't affect them.

For the light transit user that has a compass card with a balance, it STILL won't affect them.

For the guy that never uses transit, and hops on a bus after throwing some change in the thing and expects to get on the train, he'll do it once and then get a damned card.

Sorry dude, your post makes too much sense. Please delete it. It does not belong on RS. :troll:

[MindBomber]

You forgot toruist and the people on welfare or the bums or low income people.

Please, explain what would prevent said people from acquiring a compass card?

[Gumby]

You forgot toruist and the people on welfare or the bums or low income people.
I thought bums get to use transit for free? :lawl:

[Tapioca]

You forgot toruist and the people on welfare or the bums or low income people.

When I go to London, I have no problem putting a deposit on an Oyster card because it will save me a ton of money. I have an NYC Metro card at home for my next visit to NYC.

We shouldn't have to hold hands for people. Whenever I'm a tourist, I do my research ahead of time to determine the cheapest way to travel around the city.
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[Mr.HappySilp]

Please, explain what would prevent said people from acquiring a compass card?

Well you arrive at a city as a trouist don't know a thing about the whole cmpact pass. Gets on the bus and pays and when you arrive at the skytrain then you realize you can't use the ticket you got form the bus on the skytrain. Now someone tells you, you need a compact pass. Whould you be mad or wish the bus driver would tell you or at least have something on the bus or at least when you pay at the bus that you will be told about the whole compact bus thing?

The low income or whose living in sub housing a lot of the times the front desk at the sub housing will give the people there a bus faire if they need it to get another place.

[DragonChi]

Couldn't you get a Compass and transfer you're papers transfer funds on to it?

[predom]

Well you arrive at a city as a trouist don't know a thing about the whole cmpact pass. Gets on the bus and pays and when you arrive at the skytrain then you realize you can't use the ticket you got form the bus on the skytrain. Now someone tells you, you need a compact pass. Whould you be mad or wish the bus driver would tell you or at least have something on the bus or at least when you pay at the bus that you will be told about the whole compact bus thing?

The low income or whose living in sub housing a lot of the times the front desk at the sub housing will give the people there a bus faire if they need it to get another place.

I would think. " wow I'm a fucking idiot who traveled to a different country without doing any research."
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[gars]

When I go to London, I have no problem putting a deposit on an Oyster card because it will save me a ton of money. I have an NYC Metro card at home for my next visit to NYC.

We shouldn't have to hold hands for people. Whenever I'm a tourist, I do my research ahead of time to determine the cheapest way to travel around the city.
Posted via RS Mobile

This

Translink already charges extra for people paying for fares at the airports. Tourists don't pay as much taxes as we do here, I see no problem having them pay more for a system that we subsidize with our gas tax, etc.

[Gridlock]

Well you arrive at a city as a trouist don't know a thing about the whole cmpact pass. Gets on the bus and pays and when you arrive at the skytrain then you realize you can't use the ticket you got form the bus on the skytrain. Now someone tells you, you need a compact pass. Whould you be mad or wish the bus driver would tell you or at least have something on the bus or at least when you pay at the bus that you will be told about the whole compact bus thing?

The low income or whose living in sub housing a lot of the times the front desk at the sub housing will give the people there a bus faire if they need it to get another place.

I don't particularly care about either group.

Tourists: No one going to a foreign city as a visitor expects to have intimate knowledge of their transportation system. In fact, with our new system being used at so many other places, it should actually be easier for them. Next, if they have come to the most expensive city in the world on vacation/business...the extra $4 burn on skytrain is the least of their concerns.

Homeless/Low Income: They have the unique ways of getting things done based on not really caring what others think. Say what you want, they are highly adaptable. If there is a loophole in the system, they'll find it and spread the word. Besides, most will just let them on the bus to keep from having an issue.

[dbaz]

same process in japan as well actually, except most buses are now fitted with the card system. imo they need to do the compass cards in buses too other wise its kinda pointless. biggest problem though is the fare system, they need to get rid of the zone system and create a system that goes by distance. in theory going from metrotown to joyce or bridgeport to marine shouldn't be $4

[Gumby]

Well you arrive at a city as a trouist don't know a thing about the whole cmpact pass. Gets on the bus and pays and when you arrive at the skytrain then you realize you can't use the ticket you got form the bus on the skytrain. Now someone tells you, you need a compact pass. Whould you be mad or wish the bus driver would tell you or at least have something on the bus or at least when you pay at the bus that you will be told about the whole compact bus thing?

The low income or whose living in sub housing a lot of the times the front desk at the sub housing will give the people there a bus faire if they need it to get another place.
Compass card, not compact pass.

[HonestTea]

You forgot toruist and the people on welfare or the bums or low income people.

Well you arrive at a city as a trouist don't know a thing about the whole cmpact pass. Gets on the bus and pays and when you arrive at the skytrain then you realize you can't use the ticket you got form the bus on the skytrain. Now someone tells you, you need a compact pass. Whould you be mad or wish the bus driver would tell you or at least have something on the bus or at least when you pay at the bus that you will be told about the whole compact bus thing?

The low income or whose living in sub housing a lot of the times the front desk at the sub housing will give the people there a bus faire if they need it to get another place.

Tourist..?

[Mr.HappySilp]

same process in japan as well actually, except most buses are now fitted with the card system. imo they need to do the compass cards in buses too other wise its kinda pointless. biggest problem though is the fare system, they need to get rid of the zone system and create a system that goes by distance. in theory going from metrotown to joyce or bridgeport to marine shouldn't be $4

The zone system should be replace ages ago. Why it cost the same for someone traveling from New West to Waterfront Vs. Patterson to Joyce?

[Gridlock]

and why is everyone getting all in a panic when the changes to the system actually involves change?

Translink told everyone that would listen the problems with fare gates in their beautiful haiku to the city:

Fare gates look pretty
Never be paid for by use
City dumb to buy

[Traum]

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA this is awesome, I love it when people bitch and whine and moan that "Oh, they should do it THIS way", and then when that finally comes about and things don't work they way they used to, then they bitch and whine and moan that the old way was better.

Everyone griped endlessly about the zone system and "ooo, we should have a card that just deducts from your account, like they have in <insert foreign country>!" Okay, well you have your fuggen card system now, and things have to work differently... and you don't like it. STFU.

Same fuggen thing happened with the cell companies and three-year contracts - "consumer groups" managed to get things changed to get rid and three-year contracts, and guess what? Plan prices are going up. Nice work, fuckheads.

I can't wait to see what the next not-perfect-but-still-pretty-good thing gets fucked up by these whiny "I want everything and I want it now and I want it free" pricks.
The problem here is, all of the different Translink mediums (buses, Skytrains / Canada Line, Seabus) has always worked as a single integrated system for transit users. You pay the right amount once, and you can use all the different modes of transportation however you want within the valid duration of your ticket. There are discounts available depending on how you pay your fare, but it is still a single integrated payment and ridership system. This has been the norm for as long as I can remember (easily 25+ years). And now Translink is saying "screw you" to all the cash paying riders.

People are not necessarily fuming because they have to pay extra to take the Skytrain; they are fuming because of stupidity and poor planning that Translink has once again displayed. Vancouver is not the mass transit-centric city that Hong Kong, Seoul, or Japan is. In those cities, practically everyone carries a public transit payment-capable smart card. Metro Vancouver is certainly moving more towards public transit, but cars will continue to be the primary mode of transportation for the majority of residents here. Not everyone will have a Compass Card, and not everyone will remember to always carry their Compass Card. To fracturing the long established integrated system is illogical, and creates an inconvenience for users. This is why people are fuming.

[dbaz]

considering the fee for a 3zone for skytrain, its 5.50. as an example expo line could easily be changed to by distance/station. as the expo line has 20 stop its easy to calculate to say 30cents a station(farfetched as it would be a big money loss to translink) or $1 minimum fee good for the first 5 stops and an increase of a dollar after every 5 stops. for those who live close to work but drive, it provides and even cheaper option. while those who generally travel farther may receive a bit of a break or pay basically the same.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Traum^
this is a transition to something bigger. the cash payers and "forgetful people" will suffer, while the people that carry compass cards will not. get with the times. update yourself. become better.

[Tapioca]

same process in japan as well actually, except most buses are now fitted with the card system. imo they need to do the compass cards in buses too other wise its kinda pointless. biggest problem though is the fare system, they need to get rid of the zone system and create a system that goes by distance. in theory going from metrotown to joyce or bridgeport to marine shouldn't be $4

Yep, it should. On the other hand, travelling from Langley to Vancouver should cost far more than $5.50.

But if you have no data on how far and how frequently people are travelling on the system, is it a good idea to arbitrarily create a distance-pricing scheme that may hurt more people than benefit? Do people take decisions based on instinct, or do they make them with some evidence and research?

This is why the zone system is unfortunately staying for now until there's enough data to transition to distance-based pricing.
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[DragonChi]

I think that's part of the benefits of going to a pass card, so they can determine which routes are utilized the most and price distance appropriately. Well, I'm not sure if they did it by sales before, or if at all with the paper transfers. It would be stupid if they couldn't get usage data with Compass cards in this day in age.

http://compassbetatest.com/en/Fares-and-Passes/Compass-Card/Benefits.aspx

"Efficient
All the data as customers tap in and tap out with their Compass Cards and tickets will be combined to help TransLink deliver transit services at times and on routes that serve more people more effectively and efficiently."

Too bad this thread didn't come up sooner, I reminded me of the Compassbetatest, but the deadline to sign up was Aug 9th. :(

[Tapioca]

People are not necessarily fuming because they have to pay extra to take the Skytrain; they are fuming because of stupidity and poor planning that Translink has once again displayed. Vancouver is not the mass transit-centric city that Hong Kong, Seoul, or Japan is. In those cities, practically everyone carries a public transit payment-capable smart card. Metro Vancouver is certainly moving more towards public transit, but cars will continue to be the primary mode of transportation for the majority of residents here. Not everyone will have a Compass Card, and not everyone will remember to always carry their Compass Card. To fracturing the long established integrated system is illogical, and creates an inconvenience for users. This is why people are fuming.

Don't take this personally, but this is the type of attitude that makes me want to leave this part of the world sometimes. Vancouver thinks its a big city, but its residents have such a small world mentality sometimes.

This change to a card-based system makes sense on SO many levels, yet people are so parochial and resistant to anything that might require them to adapt that they moan and complain.

Cash users should pay more - that is the case in virtually every other transit system in the world. People want incentives to take transit, right? The incentive is the Compass card: you can add to it online, not worry about change, and save a bit of money in the process. Sounds like a great deal to me. We all carry wallets, bags, etc - what's another card going to do?
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[Traum]

Don't take this personally, but this is the type of attitude that makes me want to leave this part of the world sometimes. Vancouver thinks its a big city, but its residents have such a small world mentality sometimes.

This change to a card-based system makes sense on SO many levels, yet people are so parochial and resistant to anything that might require them to adapt that they moan and complain.

Cash users should pay more - that is the case in virtually every other transit system in the world. People want incentives to take transit, right? The incentive is the Compass card: you can add to it online, not worry about change, and save a bit of money in the process. Sounds like a great deal to me. We all carry wallets, bags, etc - what's another card going to do?
Posted via RS Mobile
I completely agree that cash users should pay more. The incentive is to drive them towards using the Compass Card. There is no dispute about that at all.

The problem right now is, if I pay cash to hop onto a bus, my transfer is still good for transferring to other buses. But it is not valid on the Skytrain. The whole Metro Vancouver public transit system has always been a single integrated system that allows (and encourages) vehicle transfers. But now my cash-paid bus transfer is only good for other buses. This breaks from the long established norm of how the public transit system operates in the Lower Mainland.

Again, people are not necessarily upset about paying more. Cash users are expected to pay more. They know that, and they are fine with it. People are upset now because they are going to find themselves in situations where they have already paid for a service, but will get charged again for using the same service. This makes no sense, and they are upset because it makes no sense.

[gars]

People who think ahead have always had a discount though. Faresaver tickets have been around for a long time, and if you prepay for them - you get a discount (you save $0.65 for a 1 zone). Now you get a discount if you prepay for compass - I don't see a big issue with it.

Cash users on a bus also add a lot of added time that a bus needs to wait. Everyone else will just walk on and tap.

[MindBomber]

Well you arrive at a city as a trouist don't know a thing about the whole cmpact pass. Gets on the bus and pays and when you arrive at the skytrain then you realize you can't use the ticket you got form the bus on the skytrain. Now someone tells you, you need a compact pass. Whould you be mad or wish the bus driver would tell you or at least have something on the bus or at least when you pay at the bus that you will be told about the whole compact bus thing?

The low income or whose living in sub housing a lot of the times the front desk at the sub housing will give the people there a bus faire if they need it to get another place.

I will not reiterate what Tapioca's said. Your tourist argument is invalid.

A low income person may acquire a compass card to have the aforementioned bus fair loaded onto. Once again, your argument is invalid.

The zone system should be replace ages ago. Why it cost the same for someone traveling from New West to Waterfront Vs. Patterson to Joyce?

Introducing a compass card is a phase in replacing the zone system with a distance based system.

My friend who works at the hospital and they have group employee transit pass, it will be canceled due the compass pass. I wonder will they also cancel UPass? haha

The employee pass program (EEP) and the U-Pass program operated on significantly different standards.

In the case of U-Pass programs, student unions arrange contracts with Translink that ensure a minimum of 95% of a student body will participate in the program. Nine student unions currently participate to a total of 160,000 issued U-Passes.

While in the case of EEP programs, workplaces with over 25 employees were able to register to Translink to participate in the program. 250 employers had been participating to a total of 25,000 passes issued.

The U-Pass program is largely profitable and otherwise effective, despite the deep discount.

The EEP program lost a significant amount of money and was not especially effective.

Therefore, suggesting the cancellation of EEP may be a sign the cancellation of U-Pass is imminent is pure folly.

[dbaz]

Yep, it should. On the other hand, travelling from Langley to Vancouver should cost far more than $5.50.

But if you have no data on how far and how frequently people are travelling on the system, is it a good idea to arbitrarily create a distance-pricing scheme that may hurt more people than benefit? Do people take decisions based on instinct, or do they make them with some evidence and research?

This is why the zone system is unfortunately staying for now until there's enough data to transition to distance-based pricing.
Posted via RS Mobile

Yup, but what convenient translink options are there from langley to downtown? Unfortunately the way translink is planned, its piss poor. Buses are becoming slower, rarely ever on time. While adding extra buses may seem like an answer the real problem is the amount of traffic on the streets. The lower mainland has grown at roughly 10% since 2006 and vancouver is the most condensed population in canada. Basically a need to force people off the streets and into transit is needed, like tolls. Yet to do this new transit structures are needed first, meaning the gov and translink need to take on big projects to complete a few new things, say a light rail along hwy 1 and a few new skytrain routes within lower mainland. IN THE FUTURE AS OBVIOUSLY INSTANT CONSTRUCTION OF BILLION DOLLAR PROJECTS ARE NOT FEASIBLE ( thought id edit in the obvious for someone) . I fully suspect they will see a loss in customers due to the new fair problem and then they complain about lost fairs.(casual ones)

[stewie]

im still a bit confused here, I take transit at most...twice a year...

so in order to get onto a skytrain, you swipe your card, it deducts a 3 zone fare, and when you swipe it again, your refunded if you only stayed in 1-2 zones??

what happens if I scan the card, walk through the gate, realize I forgot something (lets say the metro/24hr newspapers in the bins outside), scan the card again to get out and again to get in...there would be no money deducted there?

if so whats stopping me from getting 2 compass pass cards and scan 1 at a surrey gate to enter, travel to the end of the line, and scan the 2nd card at waterfront, and on my return, use the same card I used for waterfront to get back in and the same card from in surrey?? would it register as me being in the same zone at the same location and not deduct any money? or does it have some time limit where your given a grace period of like 10 minutes to leave and re enter(I could still see that being a problem as lots of people forget things and have to quickly trek back to the car and grab something and trek back and hope they've made it in time or else they have to pay again).

adding on to what dbaz said about the busses being slower and slower and rarely on time, IF I were to take a bus and train from my gf's house in maple ridge to my house in Burnaby, the bus near her house only comes once every hour, and if its late, I miss the next bus which is another bus that only comes once every 30 minutes, taking it to coq bus loop only to wait for another bus to take me to lougheed then skytrain back to brentwood and bus home from there....

cmon...I know its a bit of a distance, but it shouldn't have to take 3hours to take transit there and 3 back. id love to see more skytrain lines put up for the tri cities, but by the time they've finished all the construction...it would be at the point where im ready to retire and could care less about it anymore.

[Tapioca]

Yup, but what convenient translink options are there from langley to downtown? Unfortunately the way translink is planned, its piss poor. Buses are becoming slower, rarely ever on time. While adding extra buses may seem like an answer the real problem is the amount of traffic on the streets. The lower mainland is growing at roughly 10% a year and vancouver is the most condensed population in canada. Basically a need to force people off the streets and into transit is needed, like tolls. Yet to do this new transit structures are needed first, meaning the gov and translink need to take on big projects to complete a few new things, say a light rail along hwy 1 and a few new skytrain routes within lower mainland. Basically, they are unable to do anything properly (much like the compass passes not being able to be used on buses) and its all doomed to receive harsh criticism. I fully suspect they will see a loss in customers due to the new fair problem and then they complain about lost fairs.

These are all valid criticisms of Translink and the state of transit inrastrucuture. However, building new light-rail lines costs money - money which Translink does not have and money it cannot raise because people will not pay higher property taxes, and people (including you, me, and everyone else on RS) continue to go down south to fill up which deprives Translink of gas tax revenue. And as I have consistently argued on this and other threads, there is very little that can be done to make the organization more efficient (like axing managers or getting rid of the bus drivers union) unless people are willing to put up with a significant reduction in service.

Where you and I disagree is that people will stop taking transit following the introduction of the Compass card. This change affects casual users - not frequent users. I would argue that this change benefits frequent users because they can fill their cards from home. I won't repeat what Gridlock said earlier.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Tapioca]

im still a bit confused here, I take transit at most...twice a year...

so in order to get onto a skytrain, you swipe your card, it deducts a 3 zone fare, and when you swipe it again, your refunded if you only stayed in 1-2 zones??

what happens if I scan the card, walk through the gate, realize I forgot something (lets say the metro/24hr newspapers in the bins outside), scan the card again to get out and again to get in...there would be no money deducted there?

if so whats stopping me from getting 2 compass pass cards and scan 1 at a surrey gate to enter, travel to the end of the line, and scan the 2nd card at waterfront, and on my return, use the same card I used for waterfront to get back in and the same card from in surrey?? would it register as me being in the same zone at the same location and not deduct any money? or does it have some time limit where your given a grace period of like 10 minutes to leave and re enter(I could still see that being a problem as lots of people forget things and have to quickly trek back to the car and grab something and trek back and hope they've made it in time or else they have to pay again).

Yep, the card will refund the appropriate amount depending where you get off.

The current grace period is 20 minutes. I read this on Translink's Buzzer blog.
Posted via RS Mobile

[dbaz]

I agree it benefits frequent users and is indeed a smart move in that term. I'm just saying, knowing vancouver, the casuals will stop and translink will complain because of it.


if so whats stopping me from getting 2 compass pass cards and scan 1 at a surrey gate to enter, travel to the end of the line, and scan the 2nd card at waterfront, and on my return, use the same card I used for waterfront to get back in and the same card from in surrey?? would it register as me being in the same zone at the same location and not deduct any money? or does it have some time limit where your given a grace period of like 10 minutes to leave and re enter(I could still see that being a problem as lots of people forget things and have to quickly trek back to the car and grab something and trek back and hope they've made it in time or else they have to pay again).

If they do the system correctly, it will be no charge.


V yea, just re read translinks site. ivtec post had me thinking it was scrapped

[Tapioca]

I agree it benefits frequent users and is indeed a smart move in that terms, I'm just saying, knowing vancouver, the casuals will stop and translink will complain because of it. I do think the compass pass needs to be useable on buses though, as many people who use the skytrain, also use a bus.



If they do the system correctly, it will be no charge.

The Compass is usuable on buses which is why they have readers at the front and the back. Users are supposed to tap when they enter and when they leave. However, people will probably forget to tap when they leave and will be charged the full fare. And the media will make a big thing about it when really people will have only themselves to blame.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Gumby]

im still a bit confused here, I take transit at most...twice a year...

so in order to get onto a skytrain, you swipe your card, it deducts a 3 zone fare, and when you swipe it again, your refunded if you only stayed in 1-2 zones??

what happens if I scan the card, walk through the gate, realize I forgot something (lets say the metro/24hr newspapers in the bins outside), scan the card again to get out and again to get in...there would be no money deducted there?

if so whats stopping me from getting 2 compass pass cards and scan 1 at a surrey gate to enter, travel to the end of the line, and scan the 2nd card at waterfront, and on my return, use the same card I used for waterfront to get back in and the same card from in surrey?? would it register as me being in the same zone at the same location and not deduct any money? or does it have some time limit where your given a grace period of like 10 minutes to leave and re enter(I could still see that being a problem as lots of people forget things and have to quickly trek back to the car and grab something and trek back and hope they've made it in time or else they have to pay again).

Hopefully the system can differentiate when you enter a station and when you exit... That way you won't be able to "exit" a station if the card hasn't registered an "entrance" yet.

They would need to set up "entrance" and "exit" Compass Card scanners though - and I wouldn't be surprised if Translink hasn't thought this out yet! :p

[buhdeh]

I can definitely see casual users dropping Translink. If I'm with some buddies heading downtown and it costs me $3 for the bus and another $3 for the train, I might as well just cab at that point. I just need one other person with me to make the cost worthwhile.

I don't think people who take transit maybe twice a month will bother with keeping a card constantly loaded and in their wallet. Especially now that a ton of people are just using card wallets. I'm hoping they build an app for NFC capable phones quickly and accept mobile payments. First world problem, but I really don't want to carry an extra card that I probably don't need but have to carry so that I don't get charged double the price.

I'm all for charging more for convenience but this sounds more like "we forgot this use case so here's this kludgy ass workaround instead" than something that was intentionally planned. It doesn't feel seamless like a modern transportation system should, IMO.

[stewie]

Hopefully the system can differentiate when you enter a station and when you exit... That way you won't be able to "exit" a station if the card hasn't registered an "entrance" yet.

They would need to set up "entrance" and "exit" Compass Card scanners though - and I wouldn't be surprised if Translink hasn't thought this out yet! :p

A system that costs millions to implement....and i bett it'll only take a few cheap highschool kids who don't want to pay to figure a way to scam the systems lol
Posted via RS Mobile

[Mr.HappySilp]

Hopefully the system can differentiate when you enter a station and when you exit... That way you won't be able to "exit" a station if the card hasn't registered an "entrance" yet.

They would need to set up "entrance" and "exit" Compass Card scanners though - and I wouldn't be surprised if Translink hasn't thought this out yet! :p

Hoep they won't!

[knight604]

fuck transit , will never take that shit.

Never stepped foot in one since 08

[Anjew]

You forgot toruist and the people on welfare or the bums or low income people.

that's the tourists fault... when i visit another country i research how their system works.

i dont see how people with low income or welfare are not able to pick up a compass card?

as for bums well.... :badpokerface:

[Graeme S]

I can definitely see casual users dropping Translink. If I'm with some buddies heading downtown and it costs me $3 for the bus and another $3 for the train, I might as well just cab at that point. I just need one other person with me to make the cost worthwhile.

I don't think people who take transit maybe twice a month will bother with keeping a card constantly loaded and in their wallet. Especially now that a ton of people are just using card wallets. I'm hoping they build an app for NFC capable phones quickly and accept mobile payments. First world problem, but I really don't want to carry an extra card that I probably don't need but have to carry so that I don't get charged double the price.

I'm all for charging more for convenience but this sounds more like "we forgot this use case so here's this kludgy ass workaround instead" than something that was intentionally planned. It doesn't feel seamless like a modern transportation system should, IMO.
The casual user will easily be helped by the compass. The casual user is often foiled from using transit by two things: Lack of change, or lack of tickets.

Having a compass card in your wallet (or a transponder on your keychain or however they do it), will mean that people can load up their card with 10 fares (like they do now with tickets) and completely forget about it until they stumble out of a bar and need to get home. As it stands, many of those people would now hail a cab or risk getting home. But with the convenience of a compass transponder...


Also: As Grid and Bomber and several others have pointed out, there are some misunderstandings about the article.

Every form of translink transport will be able to use the compass to transfer in and out of.
If you get on the skytrain, you will be issued a compass-compatible passcard which can be taken onto the bus.
If you get on the bus, you will get a transfer ticket (the same as the ones we get now) which are NOT compatible with Compass systems.

Take a look at this handy chart:

Cash -> Bus -> Seabus
Cash -> Bus -> Skytrain
Cash -> Skytrain -> Bus
Cash -> Skytrain -> Seabus
Cash -> Seabus -> Skytrain
Cash -> Seabus -> Bus
Compass -> Bus -> Skytrain
Compass -> Bus -> Seabus
Compass -> Skytrain -> Bus
Compass -> Skytrain -> Seabus
Compass -> Seabus -> Skytrain
Compass -> Seabus -> Bus

[Gridlock]

Yup, but what convenient translink options are there from langley to downtown? Unfortunately the way translink is planned, its piss poor. Buses are becoming slower, rarely ever on time. While adding extra buses may seem like an answer the real problem is the amount of traffic on the streets. The lower mainland is growing at roughly 10% a year and vancouver is the most condensed population in canada. Basically a need to force people off the streets and into transit is needed, like tolls. Yet to do this new transit structures are needed first, meaning the gov and translink need to take on big projects to complete a few new things, say a light rail along hwy 1 and a few new skytrain routes within lower mainland. Basically, they are unable to do anything properly (much like the compass passes not being able to be used on buses) and its all doomed to receive harsh criticism. I fully suspect they will see a loss in customers due to the new fair problem and then they complain about lost fairs.

I don't mean this personally dude, but this is the most retarded thing posted in this thread.

Let me help you out.

(much like the compass passes not being able to be used on buses)

Right there, your entire post is shit because you didn't read the article, you didn't understand the problem and therefore, your opinion on the solution is invalid.

The issue, once again is:

THERE IS NO SYSTEM BEING INSTALLED THAT CAN CONVERT A CASH FARE PAID ON A BUS TO A TRANSFER THAT WILL BE RECOGNIZED ON THE SKYTRAIN.

So you might ask, "Gridlock man, won't that cause FUCKING CHAOS?"

And I'd say no! Dbaz it really won't. Cash fares looking for transfer to the train system are a small portion of the overall fares collected. As people become more familiar with the new system, the numbers of people affected will be small.


-Unfortunately the way translink is planned, its piss poor.
-meaning the gov and translink need to take on big projects to complete a few new things, say a light rail along hwy 1 and a few new skytrain routes within lower mainland.
-unable to do anything properly
-Buses are becoming slower, rarely ever on time.

Well hey kids! Here's the fucking answer. Have a billion dollar blow out on infrastructure and get your head out of your ass.

Why didn't Translink think of that? Just build a to-the-tits system, the classic champagne taste on a beer budget and do it all now. I want a skytrain system right at my door with a seat labeled "dbaz" waiting for me.

Come on man.

I'm sure that Toronto, Calgary and Montreal wouldn't see that kind of spend going down on the west coast and want their slice AT ALL. So that won't add up fast or anything.

But fuck it, in our world, its all free baby.

[dbaz]

Hey mr big shot, did you read my post later on where I said that ivtec's post had me thinking that the compass system on buses was scrapped? I bet you didnt. You just love calling out people and flexing your fucking epeen all over this site. At least I corrected my misunderstanding in a later post, while you just fucking go straight at a person. Also did I say that that type of transit system had to immediately be started? No, of course I realize this shit costs money and that money doesnt grow on trees, but in a metropolis that is rapidly growing, these systems are needed in the future

[radioman]

:Popcorn

[MindBomber]

Yup, but what convenient translink options are there from langley to downtown?

Catch the 555 from the Carvolth exchange to Braid Station and continue to DT via the Skytrain. Langley to DT takes about 45 minutes.

[Gridlock]

Well, when I said I don't mean this personally, I meant it.

But thanks for the new quote for my sig.

I do, by the way, love calling people out all over this site. I'd flex my real penis over this site too if it was socially acceptable.

[stewie]

heres a simple solution

take those fucking fare readers that are on busses, and tie them in at skytrains beside the compass pass scanner.

I do, by the way, love calling people out all over this site. I'd flex my real penis over this site too if it was socially acceptable.

i think you should try it face to face, see how hard you can flex your "peen" then :p

[smoothie.]

I don't mean this personally dude, but this is the most retarded thing posted in this thread.

Let me help you out.



Right there, your entire post is shit because you didn't read the article, you didn't understand the problem and therefore, your opinion on the solution is invalid.

The issue, once again is:

THERE IS NO SYSTEM BEING INSTALLED THAT CAN CONVERT A CASH FARE PAID ON A BUS TO A TRANSFER THAT WILL BE RECOGNIZED ON THE SKYTRAIN.

So you might ask, "Gridlock man, won't that cause FUCKING CHAOS?"

And I'd say no! Dbaz it really won't. Cash fares looking for transfer to the train system are a small portion of the overall fares collected. As people become more familiar with the new system, the numbers of people affected will be small.


-Unfortunately the way translink is planned, its piss poor.
-meaning the gov and translink need to take on big projects to complete a few new things, say a light rail along hwy 1 and a few new skytrain routes within lower mainland.
-unable to do anything properly
-Buses are becoming slower, rarely ever on time.

Well hey kids! Here's the fucking answer. Have a billion dollar blow out on infrastructure and get your head out of your ass.

Why didn't Translink think of that? Just build a to-the-tits system, the classic champagne taste on a beer budget and do it all now. I want a skytrain system right at my door with a seat labeled "dbaz" waiting for me.

Come on man.

I'm sure that Toronto, Calgary and Montreal wouldn't see that kind of spend going down on the west coast and want their slice AT ALL. So that won't add up fast or anything.

But fuck it, in our world, its all free baby.

I agree. Translink needs to go all out and everywhere.

... There's an article to read?
Posted via RS Mobile

[dinosaur]

The lower mainland is growing at roughly 10% a year

This is an excellent statistic.

Too bad it isn't even remotely close to being true!

When you beak off about erroneous things, it is hard to take anything else you say seriously.

Average growth rate for the Lower Mainland averages between 1% and 2% yearly.

18225

[pastarocket]

A bunch of morons work as the Translink management.


It's not this bus transfers issue that's another problem with the compass card and gate system. Some stations only have four gates available.

Imagine the herds of commuters lining up to go through those gates.

Do these Translink managers spend their time smoking crack and drinking at work like Rob Ford? Unbelievable.

This issue is just another reason for me to keep driving to work. :)

[dbaz]

Indeed it was 10% since 2006 :). I reread the article but didnt edit my original post as your "better" half knows already in regards to buses and the compass card. I dont know what we'd ever do without you two on this forum...

[buhdeh]

seriously, there was no need for that. dbaz wasn't even being confrontational. but i guess people would rather write a big, angry wall of text full of insults for some thanks.

[dinosaur]

I dont know what we'd ever do without you two on this forum...

I would respond, but I don't want to get banned from this thread ;)

[Gridlock]

seriously, there was no need for that. dbaz wasn't even being confrontational. but i guess people would rather write a big, angry wall of text full of insults for some thanks.

I'll be the one that determines what I find I have a need to do :)

I know dbaz. Was my post harsh? Sure. He had his fun, told me to go fuck myself or whatever, and I get a new cool quote for my sig.

'tis over.

But you seem to be happy to put your 2 cents in looking for some thanks. I'll even give ya one :) Happy?

[stewie]

I'll be the one that determines what I find I have a need to do :)

I know dbaz. Was my post harsh? Sure. He had his fun, told me to go fuck myself or whatever, and I get a new cool quote for my sig.

'tis over.

But you seem to be happy to put your 2 cents in looking for some thanks. I'll even give ya one :) Happy?

if he gets one I want one!!! don't make me whine louder and harder!!!

:lol

[RecklessNS]

Revscene has amazed me the past couple of threads, only to realize that these off topic discussions are coming from past events. Honestly, No wonder a thread can't make it past the 3st page, cause shit gets serious at one point then it becomes unnecessary. I'm not calling anyone out, just a trend I've been noticing.

I log onto my computer in the morning only to go back to my kitchen to get some popcorn for all the stuff I read on here now.
ps.
the 3st was a joke, suck it phaneuf.#notevenruslted

[Gridlock]

Revscene has amazed me the past couple of threads, only to realize that these off topic discussions are coming from past events. Honestly, No wonder a thread can't make it past the 3st page, cause shit gets serious at one point then it becomes unnecessary. I'm not calling anyone out, just a trend I've been noticing.

I log onto my computer in the morning only to go back to my kitchen to get some popcorn for all the stuff I read on here now.
ps.
the 3st was a joke, suck it phaneuf.#notevenruslted

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4959492_700b.jpg

[StylinRed]

Seems like Translink is just listening to us drivers finally start gouging those who use the transportation services and give us drivers some slack

well now lets hope we drivers are given a break from more taxes to pay for bus/train services :/

[SoNaRWaVe]

if i recall my compass training class, delivered by CUBIC (the folks who made the system for translink), said that each gate can handle 30 people per minute. so a station with 4 gates is 120 people per minute. the numbers will be much lower than that initially when everyone is getting used to the system, but when everyone gets accustomed to it, that sounds like a decent flow of people.

each gate is also programmable for one way entry/exit only. so over time, if there is a huge number of people getting into the trains rather than out, or whatever the case is, the gates can be programmed to let more people in/out for better flow.

everyone here has valid points on the POTENTIAL problems. its all speculation at best. we won't know anything for certain until the system is tested (from the current 5,000 beta testers) or when the system is stress test when its is officially open to the public.

compass is to meant get rid of any current fare media. so obviously people will be pissed with whatever methods translink chooses to phase out the current fare media. you just can't please everyone, no matter what they do. they can only do what they think will best help them as a business and the public's interest.

[smoothie.]

Seems like Translink is just listening to us drivers finally start gouging those who use the transportation services and give us drivers some slack

well now lets hope we drivers are given a break from more taxes to pay for bus/train services :/

I wish they were "gouging"

Pretty sure this is them trying to be less in the red. They're already killing employee discount programs too and Ill be surprised if they're not in the hole when numbers come out after all this
Posted via RS Mobile

[JesseBlue]

from reading most of the comments here, it seems like most are not even transit users...

from the question about how the reader knows youre entering or exiting, there are two readers, one on the outside when you enter and one on the inside when you are exiting...

from the bus perspective, it might be a little different as people can exit in front of the bus...if they (translink) explains enough that only the rear scanner would "refund" based on the distance, then it should work...

inconvenient? sure...thats part of life....we already live in a nice place and i would consider this a first world problem...

[willystyle]

This is so minor that it shouldn't even be considered a problem.

Just use the Compass Card then.

[Ikkaku]

I honestly wonder how the transition was for other major cities, when they implemented the card system.

I think the simplified way the system works in HK, at least for the busses, is that they count how many stops you are away from the busses' final destination/station, and charge based on that (Plus extra fees if you cross a tunnel or bridge I think). Transfers and such are a bit too complex for me to understand, however.

The MTR uses the basic entry gate and exit gate to calculate the distance traveled. If you don't tap the gate to exit, it will charge you the full price.

I look forward to seeing if it will eventually be implemented into our daily lives like how it is with the octopus card, being able to make small purchases and all. Also, being able to refill your card in convenient locations is a bonus!

[Soundy]

The problem here is, all of the different Translink mediums (buses, Skytrains / Canada Line, Seabus) has always worked as a single integrated system for transit users. You pay the right amount once, and you can use all the different modes of transportation however you want within the valid duration of your ticket. There are discounts available depending on how you pay your fare, but it is still a single integrated payment and ridership system. This has been the norm for as long as I can remember (easily 25+ years). And now Translink is saying "screw you" to all the cash paying riders.
How so? Because the machines at SkyTrain stations can't read paper transfers? So what should they have done, spend a shitload of extra money to add that capability for something that's going to be phased out eventually anyway?

People are not necessarily fuming because they have to pay extra to take the Skytrain; they are fuming because of stupidity and poor planning that Translink has once again displayed.
Have they? Really? Or have their plans been forced onto the fast track by constant public, media, and political pressure to implement them before the system is ready for a PROPER one-time roll-out?

The system isn't "fractured". The PAYMENT system is going through a transition. This is not odd, surprising, or unheard-of. This too shall pass, and all will be right with the world again (at least until the next big panic). Get over it.

[Soundy]

The employee pass program (EEP) and the U-Pass program operated on significantly different standards.

In the case of U-Pass programs, student unions arrange contracts with Translink that ensure a minimum of 95% of a student body will participate in the program. Nine student unions currently participate to a total of 160,000 issued U-Passes.

While in the case of EEP programs, workplaces with over 25 employees were able to register to Translink to participate in the program. 250 employers had been participating to a total of 25,000 passes issued.

The U-Pass program is largely profitable and otherwise effective, despite the deep discount.

The EEP program lost a significant amount of money and was not especially effective.

Therefore, suggesting the cancellation of EEP may be a sign the cancellation of U-Pass is imminent is pure folly.
The beauty of the Compass-type system is that both these things can be implemented and managed a lot easier and cheaper: no need to have separate photo passes, cards, etc. for different programs - people who join the plan simply have the relevant discounts applied to their registered Compass card, and it's all automatic and transparent.

[Eff-1]

Well I think all of us can agree on one thing:

For a variety of reasons, once this system launches it's going to be a complete and utter gong show for the first few months.

[Traum]

How so? Because the machines at SkyTrain stations can't read paper transfers? So what should they have done, spend a shitload of extra money to add that capability for something that's going to be phased out eventually anyway?
There are many different ways to handle the problem that has developed now, so more elegant than others. Off the top of my head, a viable solution is to issue/use on the buses the equivalent of what the 1-time use compass card that are given out when people pay cash at the Skytrain station. This way, there is only 1 system to deal with. Another possible solution (and probably a cheaper one too) is to install a single bus transfer converter machine of some sort that will issue the same single-use campss card that gets dispensed at the Skytrain station. If cash-paying riders are as sparse as Translink claims, a single machine at each Skytrain station should be more than enough. And then you retain the continuity with the single fare system that we currently have, instead of leaving people out cold.

Yes, it will cost a bit of extra money. But it won't be the "shxtload of extra funds" that you claim they'll need.
The system isn't "fractured". The PAYMENT system is going through a transition. This is not odd, surprising, or unheard-of. This too shall pass, and all will be right with the world again (at least until the next big panic). Get over it.
Years ago when I visited Hong Kong, I think the subway system there was undergoing a similar transition from magnetic fare cards to their current Octopus smart card system. For at least a good long while, both systems were retained. I don't remember the details anymore, but I'm pretty sure that for a time, the single use magnetic fare cards were used along side of the Octopus smart cards. That was a good transition because no passengers were left out in the cold. The proposed plan that Translink has for us is flawed, because cash-paying riders are getting screwed.

[SoNaRWaVe]

there will be one time use compass fares if i am not mistaken. but i believe that it will be cheaper to buy the actual compass card and to load money on it.

i was also told that the actual card, actually costs $6. how they will incorporate that into the costs of fares/cards, i do not know.

i don't think cash paying fare riders are getting screwed, it is just more beneficial for them to get the compass card.

[Not really racist!]

Card costing $6.. probably have something like you can go into the negatives once, so even if you have not enough money on the card you can still travel that one way distance

I'm more curious about reloading the card and how convenient it'll be...

[GLOW]

I'd flex my real penis over this site too if it was socially acceptable.

time for you to steal frip's avatar
http://www.revscene.net/forums/customavatars/thumbs/avatar13775_6.gif

[SoNaRWaVe]

Card costing $6.. probably have something like you can go into the negatives once, so even if you have not enough money on the card you can still travel that one way distance

I'm more curious about reloading the card and how convenient it'll be...

from what i understand, it should be fairly easy and convenient to reload. i am not sure if this is implemented with roll out, but i've been told that you can do auto reloads. i think the new machines that they have installed also allows you to reload.

stadium skytrain station is where the main compass office will be to help people out and possibly also purchase in that location.

EDIT: here we go. http://www.straight.com/blogra/410341/long-list-public-transit-gripes-so-called-world-class-city

[DragonChi]

The beauty of the Compass-type system is that both these things can be implemented and managed a lot easier and cheaper: no need to have separate photo passes, cards, etc. for different programs - people who join the plan simply have the relevant discounts applied to their registered Compass card, and it's all automatic and transparent.

The point of the photos on upasses was that it would impede the sale of a upass to someone not eligible.

[DragonChi]

How so? Because the machines at SkyTrain stations can't read paper transfers? So what should they have done, spend a shitload of extra money to add that capability for something that's going to be phased out eventually anyway?



They could rig up a card reader from a bus to one of the gates. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hard to do.

[bing]

lol @ people bitching about having to carry one more card.

[Ikkaku]

For Octo card, they too charge a $50 hkd refundable deposit

"Our basic Octopus product. It comes with a refundable HK$50 deposit which covers HK$30 card cost and ensures uninterrupted Octopus service in case of negative value. Child, Adult and Elder cards are available."
Standard Octopus - Octopus Hong Kong (http://www.octopus.com.hk/get-your-octopus/choose-your-octopus/on-loan-octopus/standard-octopus/en/index.html)

The people who are comparing this system to HK should not be complaining.

[Gridlock]

For Octo card, they too charge a $50 hkd refundable deposit

"Our basic Octopus product. It comes with a refundable HK$50 deposit which covers HK$30 card cost and ensures uninterrupted Octopus service in case of negative value. Child, Adult and Elder cards are available."
Standard Octopus - Octopus Hong Kong (http://www.octopus.com.hk/get-your-octopus/choose-your-octopus/on-loan-octopus/standard-octopus/en/index.html)

The people who are comparing this system to HK should not be complaining.

Oh yes, won't you think of the homeless then.

[DragonChi]

from what i understand, it should be fairly easy and convenient to reload. i am not sure if this is implemented with roll out, but i've been told that you can do auto reloads. i think the new machines that they have installed also allows you to reload.

stadium skytrain station is where the main compass office will be to help people out and possibly also purchase in that location.

EDIT: here we go. A long list of public transit gripes in a so-called world-class city | Georgia Straight (http://www.straight.com/blogra/410341/long-list-public-transit-gripes-so-called-world-class-city)

Wow, reading that article got me to jump the fence on this issue. Sounds pretty Biased. But the taking away Free rides for families on Sundays?! That's some money grabbing bullshit right there.

WTF, implementing compass to stop fare evaders? what a bullshit reason. I'm sure fare evaders will still find a way to get past the gates. it's not that hard to jump the gates.

Where the hell is this 15 mil per year to run this going to?!

I love public transit, I've ridden public transit in eight different cities, Vancouver ranks somewhere in the middle.

I'm hoping still, in the long run this compass thing will help with their decision making.

[Ikkaku]

Oh yes, won't you think of the homeless then.
No.

I'm solely addressing the issue of Translink charging $6 for the Compass card. I'm not here to sympathize with anybody, or to bitch anybody out. Take your irrelevant messages elsewhere.

[Eff-1]

TransLink statement: Bus to rail transfer still possible with Compass Card

August 14, 2014

There have been a number of recent media reports about the ability of the upcoming Compass Card to support bus to rail transfers for cash fares paid when a customer starts a trip on a bus. It is important to put this into context as we do have a solution to address this.

The easiest way to travel across the system will be to use a Compass Card. When you use a Compass Card, you will be able to transfer between all transit modes, including bus and rail easily, as well as enjoy the many other additional benefits of Compass, including a discount of up to 14 per cent over cash fares.

To be clear, you’ll be able to transfer from bus to rail with the Compass Card or a Compass ticket. It is only customers who purchase fares on buses with cash who will notbe able to use those transfers to transfer to rail—approximately 6,000 customers per day out of our 1.2 million daily rides.

TransLink took the time to seek and listen to advice from peers in other agencies that have launched systems similar to ours and several operational options were explored. We are not unique in our approach. Many other transit systems around the world who we consulted with, including London and Paris, also don’t allow cash bus to rail transfers.

We determined that converting bus fareboxes to issue passes that would access the fare gates would cost about $25 million, is not a cost-effective solution, and would take a long time to implement. In focus groups, our customers told us they would prefer we not spend the money on replacing the fareboxes and instead focus on significant rider education in advance of the change being made in order to give customers plenty of time to get a Compass Card (that will facilitate the transfer to the rail system). In addition, there will be an extended transition period for our customers.

We are committed to ensuring a successful integration for our customers. Our focus between now and late fall 2013 is on addressing functionality and performance to ensure that the system is suitable for use. We have a robust education and awareness program planned to ensure a successful transition for our customers.

As is the case with many significant, complex and innovative Information Technology (IT) projects such as Compass, the technology will be introduced in phases. The great thing about Compass is that the technology has built-in flexibility and scalability which will allow us to eventually add additional customer-friendly features to continue to enhance the customer experience.

For more information or to request an interview, contact:
Derek Zabel
C: (604) 803-3199
E: media@translink.ca

seems reasonable. the pros outweigh the cons.

[daytona675]

To me the biggest issue is that the whole compact pass system is not going to be ready when they roll out. Also there is not enough info. Are they still going to use the Zone system (which is stupid), what about druing rush hour I mean when those gates it is going to take forever to go through and not to mention you have people going in and out at the same time.

haha, I laugh at translink for their incompetence. I had to take the bus for a few weeks and using the canada line. I don't know why they decided to use fare gates with doors, and not turnstiles. those things are going to break down in the heart beat. I don't think their enough of those fare gates along the canada line either. There will be line ups going in and out of the station. Especially cambie, that fucking station is retarded with the amount of traffic flowing thru there.

I'll just stick to driving for the next 10 yrs. This shit that their planning and equipment their using, ain't going to get people out of their cars. :lawl:

[DragonChi]

We'll see how it works out in time. Even if you drive, I wouldn't be surprised if all the bridges were tolled in 10 years. LOL. Vancouver, what a great city, all of the first world problems to be had.

[nah]

Scenario: Waterfront to Metrotown bus

- User swipes to get on bus at Waterfront
- User swipes at the next stop (shortest distance, lowest cost)
- User rides all the way to Metro and gets out with the masses

System could be taken advantage in this way. Let me know if I'm wrong anywhere.

[Gridlock]

OMG the facts! No , keep them away!!!!! They shed too much light on the issues of the day!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3128/2578733909_6a4a81d27e_z.jpg

[DragonChi]

Scenario: Waterfront to Metrotown bus

- User swipes to get on bus at Waterfront
- User swipes at the next stop (shortest distance, lowest cost)
- User rides all the way to Metro and gets out with the masses

System could be taken advantage in this way. Let me know if I'm wrong anywhere.

Doesn't that mean you double swipe to get out? Well, I guess it works if you walk really close behind someone and there isn't an attendant there.

[Traum]

haha, I laugh at translink for their incompetence. I had to take the bus for a few weeks and using the canada line. I don't know why they decided to use fare gates with doors, and not turnstiles. those things are going to break down in the heart beat. I don't think their enough of those fare gates along the canada line either. There will be line ups going in and out of the station. Especially cambie, that fucking station is retarded with the amount of traffic flowing thru there.

Personally, I find that turnstiles work better for those who are generally slimmer. Compared to our southern neighbours, Canadians -- and Vancouverites in particular -- are not as portly. But we still have our fair share of overweight / obese people. Using gates instead turnstiles would very likely work better for this particular group.

[SoNaRWaVe]

Scenario: Waterfront to Metrotown bus

- User swipes to get on bus at Waterfront
- User swipes at the next stop (shortest distance, lowest cost)
- User rides all the way to Metro and gets out with the masses

System could be taken advantage in this way. Let me know if I'm wrong anywhere.

that was what i thought of when i first heard about the tap on and tap off. i am sure this is what alot of people are going to do.

[nabs]

Personally, I find that turnstiles work better for those who are generally slimmer. Compared to our southern neighbours, Canadians -- and Vancouverites in particular -- are not as portly. But we still have our fair share of overweight / obese people. Using gates instead turnstiles would very likely work better for this particular group.

I hope its as simple as scan and walk, and works that fast. That's how the system is in MTL, TO and NYC and it works really well and fast. However they use turnstiles and not gates.. too many moving parts = more parts to fix when it breaks down

[stewie]

^ go with a group of friends, first guy scans, 6 walk through lol

Does this mean that the transit cops can no longer be able to do fare checks on the train??
Posted via RS Mobile

[SoNaRWaVe]

^ transit cops will have a portable reader than can check if your compass card has been validated (ie tapped on/off/or have enough cash)

[DragonChi]

Ugh, this whole fare evasion hunt is getting out of hand. I would rather have them focus on more frequent service, longer hours and increased reliability.

And the gates open and close pretty quick, those friends better be as fast as jamacians and/or kenyans.

[Alby]

but to have more frequent service and longer hours, they need more money!

[Razor Ramon HG]

Just curious.. but for who that are complaining, have they ever even used another transit system with a pass? Everything is being blown out of proportion.

I'm just curious if they'll make an NFC app.

[DragonChi]

Cut non-utilized routes and put them on ones that are over capacity.

LOL, Translink doesn't have any money. They can't even build bridges without tolls anymore.
They sure as hell aren't going to raise fares again... or maybe they will... who knows.

I've used Singapore metro and RapidKL in Kuala Lumpur. During my visit I didn't see one transit cop. The volume of buses in a Sinapore bus station would put any Translink station to shame.

[Lomac]

This thread hurts my head.

No, sorry... some of the comments in this thread hurts my head. The thread in general is blown out of proportion.

:facepalm:

First world problems, indeed.

[ilovebacon]

people are Still going to use transit.. They have no other choice.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Mr.HappySilp]

Just curious.. but for who that are complaining, have they ever even used another transit system with a pass? Everything is being blown out of proportion.

I'm just curious if they'll make an NFC app.

I was born and raise in HK and I have to say public tranist in HK is a lot better.

[Lomac]

I was born and raise in HK and I have to say public tranist in HK is a lot better.

7 million people in a 1000 km area vs 2.5 million in a 3000km area.

Not even comparable.

:facepalm:

[willystyle]

Just to get some clarification, when the Compass Card comes to light, Will they still be charging commuters based on zones or by distance travelled? If the latter, how much per stop or km?

[dbaz]

zone. like others have mentioned, hopefully with the card it allows translink to get more information on how people are travelling so they can look at different ways to charge in the future

[Alby]

zones. first swipe will auto charge your card 3 zone fare, and on swipe off, it will credit back the zone difference.

[Razor Ramon HG]

zone. like others have mentioned, hopefully with the card it allows translink to get more information on how people are travelling so they can look at different ways to charge in the future

For Seoul, the base rate is 1,050won for 10km, and free for children 6 and under.

For any distance exceeding 10km (within Seoul), it's 100won for each additional 5km.
For any distances exceeding 40km (within Seoul), it's 100won for each additional 10km.
For any distances exceeding 30km (outside Seoul), it's 100won for each additional 5km.

* 1,050won is about a dollar, and 100won is about a dime

I hope we see something similar to this in Vancouver as it makes much more sense than the zone thing, especially for those that live on the Burnaby/Vancouver border.

[Gridlock]

I think it will change to be a distance based system, but imagine putting in a whole new fare system AND changing the way its charged all on the same day.

You would basically be asking for everyone to accept that everything they knew of the transit system would change in a day, and still make it to work on time.

From a project management perspective, there is only so much you can ask a company to do...even Translink.

[Mr.HappySilp]

7 million people in a 1000 km area vs 2.5 million in a 3000km area.

Not even comparable.

:facepalm:

It have nothing to do with population is the way how our tansit is run. Did I mention about the frquency of the buse and skytrain? Am I complainning about lack of service in certain area? Read and think before you post anything. Zone system should be phase out years and years ago.

It makes no sense to make someone pay the same if they were traveling from New West to Waterfront VS someone traveling from Patterson to Joyce.

It also makes no snese that paying cash on the bus the trasfer fare won't be able to use it with skytrain when it was fine before. What translink can do is have people station at skytrain stations and have them open the gates for people who have a vaild bus trasnfer to get on the skytrain and then upgrade the bus slowly to allow fare that's purchase on the bus with cash can go on the skytrain as well.

If tanslink doesn't want to do that, then they simply need to let people who will use casht o pay for the bus fare and later trasnfer to the skytrain for free. As they claims only 6000 people is affect I am sure they can allow 6000 people to ride the bus for free and then pay when they go on the skytrain.

[Lomac]

It have nothing to do with population is the way how our tansit is run. Did I mention about the frquency of the buse and skytrain? Am I complainning about lack of service in certain area? Read and think before you post anything. Zone system should be phase out years and years ago.

It makes no sense to make someone pay the same if they were traveling from New West to Waterfront VS someone traveling from Patterson to Joyce.

It also makes no snese that paying cash on the bus the trasfer fare won't be able to use it with skytrain when it was fine before. What translink can do is have people station at skytrain stations and have them open the gates for people who have a vaild bus trasnfer to get on the skytrain and then upgrade the bus slowly to allow fare that's purchase on the bus with cash can go on the skytrain as well.

If tanslink doesn't want to do that, then they simply need to let people who will use casht o pay for the bus fare and later trasnfer to the skytrain for free. As they claims only 6000 people is affect I am sure they can allow 6000 people to ride the bus for free and then pay when they go on the skytrain.

You probably would have been better off saying all that in your last post rather than making a blanket statement about "X is better than Y" and leaving at that.

Just sayin'. ;)

[Razor Ramon HG]

On a sidenote, what I think Translink should do is spend portion of that 25 million from not upgrading the buses fully to install schedules on each bus stop.

It would be nice to see which buses pass through at each stop, and the full schedule of their routes.

[CRS]

It have nothing to do with population is the way how our tansit is run. Did I mention about the frquency of the buse and skytrain? Am I complainning about lack of service in certain area? Read and think before you post anything. Zone system should be phase out years and years ago.

It makes no sense to make someone pay the same if they were traveling from New West to Waterfront VS someone traveling from Patterson to Joyce.

It also makes no snese that paying cash on the bus the trasfer fare won't be able to use it with skytrain when it was fine before. What translink can do is have people station at skytrain stations and have them open the gates for people who have a vaild bus trasnfer to get on the skytrain and then upgrade the bus slowly to allow fare that's purchase on the bus with cash can go on the skytrain as well.

If tanslink doesn't want to do that, then they simply need to let people who will use casht o pay for the bus fare and later trasnfer to the skytrain for free. As they claims only 6000 people is affect I am sure they can allow 6000 people to ride the bus for free and then pay when they go on the skytrain.

Alright, let me break it down for you. Zones should be done away with years ago. Yes, abso-fucking-lutely. However, until the compass pass, it was IMPOSSIBLE for translink to know where you got on and off. Now, hopefully moving forward, we will be able to use a distance base measure instead of zones. Everyone wants this (even translink).

As for the transfers, do you know much money it would be to build and maintain these machines for such a small population? The cost would likely be huge with absolutely no payoff because it will run large deficits. And guess who has to foot the bill? That's right! The tax payers. By actually not allowing these transfers, translink is actually saving you and me money so I do not have an issue with this at all.

At the end of the day, why not opt for compass pass/card? It's not like they are making it impossible for you to get one. If it is people who are choosing to be willfully ignorant then those who chose that can go and pay twice. For the rest us, we'll just be enjoying our compass pass without hassle and our discounts with it.

[Gridlock]

Alright, let me break it down for you. Zones should be done away with years ago. Yes, abso-fucking-lutely. However, until the compass pass, it was IMPOSSIBLE for translink to know where you got on and off. Now, hopefully moving forward, we will be able to use a distance base measure instead of zones. Everyone wants this (even translink).

As for the transfers, do you know much money it would be to build and maintain these machines for such a small population? The cost would likely be use with absolutely no payoff because it will run huge deficits. And guess who has to foot the bill? That's right! The tax payers. By actually not allowing these transfers, translink is actually saving you and me money so I do not have an issue with this at all.

At the end of the day, why not opt for compass pass/card? It's not like they are making it impossible for you to get one. If it is people who are choosing to be willfully ignorant then those who chose that can go and pay twice. For the rest us, we'll just be enjoying our compass pass without hassle and our discounts with it.

OMG...read and understand the article? check. Comprehends the issue? check. Understands the limitations of money, return on investment and not having to bend the entire system to cater to a few non-users that refuse to adapt?

Mother-f**king check.

You sir, are winner of the best post of the day award, and its not even noon.

[i-VTEC]

(CKNW AM) AM980 | Translink bosses get raises (http://www.cknw.com/2013/08/15/translink-bosses-get-raises/?postHash=207|05e3c4e741ab6bce7afbd0d12a392b8d&postSource=direct)

[Graeme S]

(CKNW AM) AM980 | Translink bosses get raises (http://www.cknw.com/2013/08/15/translink-bosses-get-raises/?postHash=207|05e3c4e741ab6bce7afbd0d12a392b8d&postSource=direct)
Frustrating and disappointing, but a nonsequitur in this thread, and just more translink-bashing (which isn't entirely in the wrong, to be fair).

[Tapioca]

On a sidenote, what I think Translink should do is spend portion of that 25 million from not upgrading the buses fully to install schedules on each bus stop.

It would be nice to see which buses pass through at each stop, and the full schedule of their routes.

Schedules change too frequently to justify the cost of maintaining up-to-date schedules at each stop. However, you can send a text to "33333" with the stop number (5-digit number on each stop) to see when your next bus will arrive (in real time).

[Tapioca]

Frustrating and disappointing, but a nonsequitur in this thread, and just more translink-bashing (which isn't entirely in the wrong, to be fair).

The mayors should just fire all of the management at Translink and hire people on RS for 50K to solve all of the problems.

But, on a more serious note, management salaries should be capped at like 100-120K/year.

[Traum]

(CKNW AM) AM980 | Translink bosses get raises (http://www.cknw.com/2013/08/15/translink-bosses-get-raises/?postHash=207|05e3c4e741ab6bce7afbd0d12a392b8d&postSource=direct)
Nearly $400k/yr for "managing" this POS company? You've gotta be fxxking kidding me.

I wonder how different Translink would be if they replaced this $400k/yr bloke with a a $150k/yr CEO instead. Even if the $150k CEO is just as crappy as the current fellow, at least the BC tax payers would enjoy a $250k savings per year. Surely that would be enough to develop and install at least a few bus transfer-to-compass card machine at different Skytrain stations...

[willystyle]

So, they bring in the Compass Card, which is more than capable of charging commuters based on distance-traveled, as that would be cheaper than paying per zone, yet they still keep the same system?

No wonder most are still driving.

[CRS]

So, they bring in the Compass Card, which is more than capable of charging commuters based on distance-traveled, as that would be cheaper than paying per zone, yet they still keep the same system?

No wonder most are still driving.

This is an unfair statement. Zones will likely be transitioned out instead of a rough implementation of distance based. Unless we want to see the whole HST debacle once more.

[FerrariEnzo]

(CKNW AM) AM980 | Translink bosses get raises (http://www.cknw.com/2013/08/15/translink-bosses-get-raises/?postHash=207|05e3c4e741ab6bce7afbd0d12a392b8d&postSource=direct)
lol so really.. it should have been

Translink needs more money to expand into other areas and place bus/skytrains
to
Ian Jarvis and 141 translink employees needs a fatter wallet so they can go on a vacation

[Eff-1]

While I usually try and avoid bringing in comparisons between HK and Vancouver transit systems because there are way too many differences, there is one thing I think is relevant to us:

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card

The Octopus system was quickly adopted by other Creative Star joint venture partners, and KMB reported that by 2000, most bus journeys were completed using an Octopus card, with few coins used. Boarding a bus in Hong Kong without using the Octopus card requires giving exact change, making it cumbersome compared to using the Octopus card. By November 1998, 4.6 million cards were issued, and this rose to 9 million by January 2002.

As was the case in HK, I believe that as soon as people see the immediate benefit of having a compass card, this whole debate will be water under the bridge.

In regards to the issue of tourists, I know that whenever I travel to a city that offers a payment card, that's the first thing I buy. I believe tourists visiting here will largely do the same, especially since the $6 fee is a deposit that is refunded upon returning the card.

[Eff-1]

The U-Pass program is largely profitable and otherwise effective, despite the deep discount.


Actually I would argue U-Pass, while beneficial, is not profitable. It only exists because of large subsidies to translink from the provincial government, otherwise there's no way translink would be able to foot the bill.

[Traum]

^^
Hong Kong's experience with their Octopus card is entirely different than what the Compass card could ever hope to be. The sheer number of people in Hong Kong means ubiquity is all but guaranteed, and deployment of the Octopus card readers was far greater than just their mass transit system.

As a matter of fact, the Octopus card is so common that it is pretty much the de facto payment system for numerous aspects in life. In fact, some people literally can't leave home without it because the card gets used as authentication systems for certain apartment complexes.

[RacePace]

^^
Hong Kong's experience with their Octopus card is entirely different than what the Compass card could ever hope to be. The sheer number of people in Hong Kong means ubiquity is all but guaranteed, and deployment of the Octopus card readers was far greater than just their mass transit system.

As a matter of fact, the Octopus card is so common that it is pretty much the de facto payment system for numerous aspects in life. In fact, some people literally can't leave home without it because the card gets used as authentication systems for certain apartment complexes.

I really want to know why we didn't just have Octopus come in and do things for Translink or show them how to do it. Translink could've also bought old terminals and systems to save themselves a ton of money

[Eff-1]

^^
Hong Kong's experience with their Octopus card is entirely different than what the Compass card could ever hope to be. The sheer number of people in Hong Kong means ubiquity is all but guaranteed, and deployment of the Octopus card readers was far greater than just their mass transit system.

As a matter of fact, the Octopus card is so common that it is pretty much the de facto payment system for numerous aspects in life. In fact, some people literally can't leave home without it because the card gets used as authentication systems for certain apartment complexes.

But it wasn't like that from the start. If you click on the link I posted, you'll see that Octopus was originally for transit purposes only (in fact before Octopus launched, HK was already using a magnetic smart card system, the only difference was Octopus is an RFID card). Only three years later after launch for transit, they started to expand to other retail transactions.

I agree that in most cases due to population and other economic factors, you can't compare Octopus to Compass. However, the point I was making is that it didn't take long for people to see the benefits of a smart card outweigh the old system. I believe that same trend will happen here.

[Tapioca]

I really want to know why we didn't just have Octopus come in and do things for Translink or show them how to do it. Translink could've also bought old terminals and systems to save themselves a ton of money

Translink put out a request for proposal (i.e. a bid) and the winning bid was a company that designed London's Oyster system. Octopus might be a better system, but the other company probably was able to deliver the goods at a lower price.

[DragonChi]

But it wasn't like that from the start. If you click on the link I posted, you'll see that Octopus was originally for transit purposes only (in fact before Octopus launched, HK was already using a magnetic smart card system, the only difference was Octopus is an RFID card). Only three years later after launch for transit, they started to expand to other retail transactions.

I agree that in most cases due to population and other economic factors, you can't compare Octopus to Compass. However, the point I was making is that it didn't take long for people to see the benefits of a smart card outweigh the old system. I believe that same trend will happen here.



^I believe you are correct sir. Said like a gentleman.

[JesseBlue]

hearing these cunts get fat raises will make me find a way to circumvent the system to my favor...it may not be 14thou but feels like a million bucks

[nabs]

They should just have it one flat fee to use the transit system for a given time period and get rid of the zone system. swiping to exit could be annoying.

[Graeme S]

They should just have it one flat fee to use the transit system for a given time period and get rid of the zone system. swiping to exit could be annoying.
We'll get used to it.

[46_valentinor]

all the people who are complaining about how inconvenient it is going to be tapping in and out, have you guys ever been out of vancouver before?
the amount of vancouverites that are so small/closed minded is just....sigh..

[stewie]

was pissed off at this idea when I first read it, and now I could care less.

I don't take transit, and I avoid it at all costs. id take a cab before I take a bus/train.

when I buy a house i'll be buying outside the gvrd so I don't have to deal with these stupid gas prices, transit systems, and cramped up shitty city problems.

[dinosaur]

To add to what Graeme posted:

(prepare to lose your shit, transit haters)

Big TransLink salaries | Watch GlobalNews Videos (http://globalnews.ca/video/783798/big-bucks-for-translink-salaries)

[stewie]

To add to what Graeme posted:

(prepare to lose your shit, transit haters)

Big TransLink salaries | Watch GlobalNews Videos (http://globalnews.ca/video/783798/big-bucks-for-translink-salaries)

don't know if theres any truth to this, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me...

was told by someone that the majority of the transit police officers are people who've already retired from another policing job, collecting their pention, and working as a transit officer now making the 100k a year as well.

anyone know?

[Gridlock]

Could happen.

You retire from policing. You still want to work. You become transit security. They roll into becoming transit police. Boom. You are a police officer again.

The fact that they make anything close to 6 digits is sad enough.

[Tapioca]

To add to what Graeme posted:

(prepare to lose your shit, transit haters)

Big TransLink salaries | Watch GlobalNews Videos (http://globalnews.ca/video/783798/big-bucks-for-translink-salaries)

I think the most interesting stat in that feature was not management salaries, but the fact that 61% of staff in the headquarters are making 70K+. The way I see it, instead of complaining, many on here might as well sell their souls and join them. I bet that young Chinese spokeswoman fresh out of SFU's school of communications is probably making 60K+. Repeating a few lines in front of a camera isn't such a hard job, is it? :)

[bing]

don't know if theres any truth to this, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me...

was told by someone that the majority of the transit police officers are people who've already retired from another policing job, collecting their pention, and working as a transit officer now making the 100k a year as well.

anyone know?

heard this from my criminology 330 prof as well.

this is a nice way to collect a second pension :)

[CP.AR]

Adelaide just updated their entire transit system to use a smart card, the switchover took place in November last year. It works really good and even has a transfer system! (2.50 can get you from the equivalent of SFU to Richmond!)

If Adelaide can have a good transit system, I don't know why Vancouver can't.

It's a more widespread city with even crazier divides between residential and commercial. Transit ridership numbers are even lower (by percentage), and last but not least... they chew up WAY less money than translink does

[SoNaRWaVe]

don't know if theres any truth to this, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me...

was told by someone that the majority of the transit police officers are people who've already retired from another policing job, collecting their pention, and working as a transit officer now making the 100k a year as well.

anyone know?

definitely true

[doritos]

fuck transit, im beginning to think driving is cheaper, doesnt make sense to spend 30-40 bucks a day for me to get from white rock area to downtown. ill just pay 20 bucks gas for 3 dayss thanks

[AWDTurboLuvr]

Adelaide just updated their entire transit system to use a smart card, the switchover took place in November last year. It works really good and even has a transfer system! (2.50 can get you from the equivalent of SFU to Richmond!)

If Adelaide can have a good transit system, I don't know why Vancouver can't.

It's a more widespread city with even crazier divides between residential and commercial. Transit ridership numbers are even lower (by percentage), and last but not least... they chew up WAY less money than translink does

Adelaide public transportation system is state run, so it gets much more funding than Translink does.

[i-VTEC]

fuck transit, im beginning to think driving is cheaper, doesnt make sense to spend 30-40 bucks a day for me to get from white rock area to downtown. ill just pay 20 bucks gas for 3 dayss thanks

As more people realize this, people are driving to work, less people taking transit, then translink will propose to tax more on gas :badpokerface:

[Soundy]

As for the transfers, do you know much money it would be to build and maintain these machines for such a small population? The cost would likely be huge with absolutely no payoff because it will run large deficits. And guess who has to foot the bill? That's right! The tax payers. By actually not allowing these transfers, translink is actually saving you and me money so I do not have an issue with this at all.

TransLink operations manager was on with Mike Smyth yesterday, they covered this exact topic. As I recall, he said there are (or are expected to be) about 6,000 riders sticking to the cash/transfer method... and retrofitting ALL the SkyTrain stations with machines capable to handling them would run about $9M.

So... $9M to keep a whole 6,000 Luddites happy? Yeah, sounds like a good idea.

Just to put that number in perspective: found a report from mid-2011 (http://www.translink.ca/en/About-Us/Media/2011/August/TransLink-reports-transit-ridership-heading-for-a-new-record.aspx) projecting a record 211.3 million trips by the end of that year. Jan-Jun 2011, there were well over 110 million trips JUST on the buses, with 3M more on SeaBus, almost 40M on Expo and Millennium lines, 19M on Canada Line, and almost 1.5M via West Coast Express. Buses showed over 750,000 boardings PER WEEK in June 2011.

But by all means, let's drop another NINE MILLION so less than .01% of that number won't be inconvenienced...

[Traum]

TransLink operations manager was on with Mike Smyth yesterday, they covered this exact topic. As I recall, he said there are (or are expected to be) about 6,000 riders sticking to the cash/transfer method... and retrofitting ALL the SkyTrain stations with machines capable to handling them would run about $9M.

So... $9M to keep a whole 6,000 Luddites happy? Yeah, sounds like a good idea.

And just like every other lemming out there, you fell for the simple logic trap that Translink pulled on you.:failed:

The first question that pops into mind is, why da fxxk would it cost a frickin $9M to retrofit all 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations with some sort of machine to deal with the transfer ticket conversion situation? As I have mentioned before, if it was really only around 6000 cash paying riders doing the bus-to-Skytrain change over, all that is really necessary is a single bus transfer-to-compass card conversion machine at each station. The machine only needs to read the info on the magnetic strip on the bus transfer card, and set the equivalent amount on the compass card. None of this is new or novel technology to Translink. It is only 46 machines they need, and the engineering design only needs to be done once. A 6000 person-per-day problem doesn't require a $9M Cadillac solution. Engineering consulting firms may charge a lot, but they can't possibly charge a frickin $9M for designing 46 machines.

I'll spell it out for you right here -- being the incredibly stupid and incompetent organization that it is, Translink is only proposing the most incredibly expensive option as the alternative to their stupid oversight (in how to handle this bus ticket to compass card situation during their project planning stage). Being the non-thinking lemming that you are, you failed to see the fallacy they proposed, and fell right into their stupidity trap.

[Tapioca]

The first question that pops into mind is, why da fxxk would it cost a frickin $9M to retrofit all 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations with some sort of machine to deal with the transfer ticket conversion situation? As I have mentioned before, if it was really only around 6000 cash paying riders doing the bus-to-Skytrain change over, all that is really necessary is a single bus transfer-to-compass card conversion machine at each station. The machine only needs to read the info on the magnetic strip on the bus transfer card, and set the equivalent amount on the compass card. None of this is new or novel technology to Translink. It is only 46 machines they need, and the engineering design only needs to be done once. A 6000 person-per-day problem doesn't require a $9M Cadillac solution. Engineering consulting firms may charge a lot, but they can't possibly charge a frickin $9M for designing 46 machines.



I don't know... have you ever worked in procurement for a large organization? The $9 million figure doesn't actually sound ridiculous. I think it's a little disingenuous to accuse Translink of outright lies.

Even if Translink is making up numbers to justify its decision to forego cash transfers, I think it is the right decision that cash riders should pay more. This is the incentive to get people onto prepaid fares. This is how it's done everywhere else in the world.

[Traum]

I don't know... have you ever worked in procurement for a large organization? The $9 million figure doesn't actually sound ridiculous. I think it's a little disingenuous to accuse Translink of outright lies.

Even if Translink is making up numbers to justify its decision to forego cash transfers, I think it is the right decision that cash riders should pay more. This is the incentive to get people onto prepaid fares. This is how it's done everywhere else in the world.
I am not accusing Translink of lying -- I'm saying they are stupid, incompetent, and only know how to adopt the most expensive and inefficient solutions. ;)

With the $9M figure that Translink quoted, I speculate that Translink is probably thinking of a full meal deal solution where every fare gate is capable of handling the bus ticket-to-compass card transfer. In a perfect world, that would be a great solution. But in our resource-constrained real world, we do not require that extensive level of support for the cash paying riders. All they need is a little something that will do the trick. You do not need a nuke to squash a fly.

Again, I agree that cash paying riders should pay more, but they shouldn't need to pay twice to use the same service.

[Lomac]

You guys are failing to understand something... BOTH systems will be in place during the transition period, meaning those who bought a ticket with cash on a bus will STILL be able to use the Skytrain. It's once this transition period ends is when the transfer will no longer be valid.

If these cash users haven't caught on by the time the transition period ends, it's their own damn fault for not switching.

[Spoon]

nvm found out what i was asking

[DragonChi]

You know... the first time you goto a SkyTrain with cash. Tell the bus driver that you don't want to pay twice and next time you'll have a compass card.... If you're cool about it, usually the drivers don't care and they're usually reasonable.

[Tapioca]

I am not accusing Translink of lying -- I'm saying they are stupid, incompetent, and only know how to adopt the most expensive and inefficient solutions. ;)

With the $9M figure that Translink quoted, I speculate that Translink is probably thinking of a full meal deal solution where every fare gate is capable of handling the bus ticket-to-compass card transfer. In a perfect world, that would be a great solution. But in our resource-constrained real world, we do not require that extensive level of support for the cash paying riders. All they need is a little something that will do the trick. You do not need a nuke to squash a fly.

Again, I agree that cash paying riders should pay more, but they shouldn't need to pay twice to use the same service.

And how do you know that a simpler solution would cost less? Do you know anything about ticket vendor machine technology?

I don't work for Translink and I don't have any vested interest in the organization, but having worked for the largest organization in the country, I get sick and tired of laypeople throwing around accusations that the people who get paid good money by working for public organizations, like Translink, are grossly incompetent. In my opinion, unless people have worked in the inside or are consultants themselves, people should temper the baseless accusations of incompetence.

People should always question decisions that involve taxpayer dollars, but to throw around an accusation that someone/an organization is incompetent without having sufficient information about what went into those decisions make the accuser an idiot.

[Gridlock]

I will tell you all straight up that a journalist could completely change the nature of this debate solely in the way they write an article.

I know this, because I know that very few people that are upset by this actually read the issue to begin with.

If I were to write it as, "Translink is paying 25 million dollars in the Compass Card rollout to appease the 6000 daily riders that pay a cash fare on the bus that transfer to skytrain. The 6000 riders represent .4% of the daily 1.2 million riders...."

The entire debate would be re-shaped as the wasteful spending by Translink trying to appease everybody.

How do I know this? Because every three weeks when a "fuck Translink" thread starts up, the conversation is related to how much money they spend on shit.

So maybe the next time we're all "fuck translink" we can try to be a bit consistent...fuck them for not spending shit loads of money, or fuck them for spending shit loads of money.

Because a company, any company, even translink should in theory be able to win somehow.

[Traum]

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.
And how do you know that a simpler solution would cost less? Do you know anything about ticket vendor machine technology?

I don't work for Translink and I don't have any vested interest in the organization, but having worked for the largest organization in the country, I get sick and tired of laypeople throwing around accusations that the people who get paid good money by working for public organizations, like Translink, are grossly incompetent. In my opinion, unless people have worked in the inside or are consultants themselves, people should temper the baseless accusations of incompetence.

People should always question decisions that involve taxpayer dollars, but to throw around an accusation that someone/an organization is incompetent without having sufficient information about what went into those decisions make the accuser an idiot.

[Nlkko]

You're just pulling numbers out of your ass. Everything would be so cheap if all it takes is to pay a bunch of engineers.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Tapioca]

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.

What makes you think that a team of engineers on contract could come up with a compatible system with no materials, and no R&D in a matter of months? It usually makes more sense to buy a solution from your original supplier - the key thing is that Translink has to buy such a system in the first place instead of "engineering" it themselves.

How many organizations have the ability to hire engineers on contract to design, build, and test products? Perhaps multinationals, but not an organization the size of Translink.

If it were really that simple, I'm sure you could easily write a proposal to Translink (I'm being serious.)

[AzNightmare]

fuck transit, im beginning to think driving is cheaper, doesnt make sense to spend 30-40 bucks a day for me to get from white rock area to downtown. ill just pay 20 bucks gas for 3 dayss thanks

WHY would you spend 30-40 bucks a day on commute?

Don't use cash to pay if you're going from White Rock to Downtown.

[Graeme S]

I like your idea in theory; a farecard -> compass card converter, but let's remember: there will be a faregate at every entrance to every station, so having a single machine at each station will be problematic. Waterfront station has three entrances; Burrard one, but two at Stadium, three (four?) at Commercial... and so suddenly that one machine per station has now gone up. Now, we need to contract out a new machine and in order to do that we'll have to do it separate of the existing changover contract, since this was an expected 'outage' and would not have been covered by the existing one. So now we have to engineer a new machine, install it in convenient locations at all entrances of all non-bus transit services (WCE, Seabus, Skytrain)...and all for 0.4% of each daily ridership.


Could this have been handled better? Yes. Is this something of a fiasco? Kind of...but a lot to do with how it's worded in the media. Like Grid said, the way you put things changes everything.

TRANSLINK FAILS TO KEEP SYSTEM CONSISTENT
vs
TRANSLINK PUSHES FOR EFFICIENCY IN NEW SYSTEM

Really, depending on whose side you're writing on you could do it either way. My mom, hardly a frequent transit user, recently asked me if she could get a compass because she thought it would be easier than dealing with change and tickets and all that jazz. She's ancient and is already open to the new system that hasn't even started yet. Sure she'll have some hiccoughs along the way, but the future is now. Sure, we can bitch and complain about what's happened...but c'est la vie.

[Gridlock]

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.

Dude. I'm going to destroy your idea. Ready?

These are in no particular order, these are just thoughts as they are being forced out of my head because I'm exploding with the levels of dumb being experienced.

1) You've allotted 10 people to the job and 9 months to do it. And you think that's all folks! You should have 46 working machines at the end of it.

2) So the machines on the buses now need to produce paper transfer tickets AND be compatible with compass cards...and that system is going to be free. So the new system would have to sit there right next to the old system.

3) You are just instinctively smarter than ANYONE AND EVERYONE employed at Translink because your smart phone has a calculator app

4) You don't actually need to manufacture 46 of these "wonder machines" to actually have them in place. They are free

5) You realize that Translink isn't actually Stark Enterprises and they don't have a team of engineers developing this stuff in house. They buy systems from vendors that produce 'transit system money box things'. They have procurement people research out different systems, and buy the one that works the best within budget

5b) With that, they don't actually OWN the software that these things run on, because they just bought a box that turns reading coins into a paper ticket with a printed mag stripe. Yet, you want the "Translink Skunk Works" department to jimmy up a box that combines the mag stripe paper into a compass card thing that turns money into fucking magic to please 6000 people that don't have $6 to devote to buying a compass card.

6) There is a solution to this...ready? ARE YOU READY? BUY A COMPASS CARD AND USE IT

7) In your world we don't need to test our mystery device. The 10 engineers over 9 months have to produce the magic machine right the first time, and it needs to work right out of the box all the time when it gets hit, punched, pissed on, pissed in, pissed around, shit on, and treated with utter disdain. Should it not work, there will be hell to pay

I'm sorry...do I need to continue?

[Traum]

Dude. I'm going to destroy your idea. Ready?

These are in no particular order, these are just thoughts as they are being forced out of my head because I'm exploding with the levels of dumb being experienced.

Gridlock,

My suggestion is not perfect nor completely thought out. There are probably flaws in it and details that I have overlooked. Graeme, for example, has pointed out a few oversights. So some royalties / fees will probably need to be paid to the system vendors. But lemme tell you, communication protocols and APIs exist for this kind of thing. It's just work that needs to be worked out, and it isn't rocket science. It doesn't cost $9M.

There is manufacturing involved, and let's say we'll need 150 machines instead of 46. But the expensive part lies in the engineering of these machines, not the manufacturing. Materials for test systems can't possibly cost that much.

For what it is worth, your point #2, 3, 4, and 7 are either missing the mark, or I don't see how they relate to why the transfer conversion machine is a bad idea. Graeme seems to have a much better understanding of what I am proposing, as does Tapioca.

At the end of the day, it really goes back to one very simple question -- should cash paying riders be charged twice for the same transit service? Telling everyone to get a compass card is not an answer to that question -- it is a workaround that may not be viable to 6000 people a day.

[Graeme S]

At the end of the day, it really goes back to one very simple question -- should cash paying riders be charged twice for the same transit service? Telling everyone to get a compass card is not an answer to that question -- it is a workaround that may not be viable to 6000 people a day.

I think we need a refinement: "Should riders be charged twice for using a single service?" The answer to that is a no; however we cannot separate all riders into payment classes. Should we then look at people such as tourists who only have bills because places like New York which have a similar ticket system to ours make change? Or those who don't have cash because they haven't made it to the bank yet and want to pay with debit?

All kinds of people are inconvenienced every day on the bus and on the skytrain. I work at a Starbucks and there are several people who come in daily (not the same people) looking to break a bill because they need to get on the bus. These people understand that while not accepting bills is an inconvenience for them, it is also a reality of the limitations of the system. In that same way, people will realize that there are limitations in the new system.

[Gridlock]

Gridlock,

My suggestion is not perfect nor completely thought out. There are probably flaws in it and details that I have overlooked. Graeme, for example, has pointed out a few oversights. So some royalties / fees will probably need to be paid to the system vendors. But lemme tell you, communication protocols and APIs exist for this kind of thing. It's just work that needs to be worked out, and it isn't rocket science. It doesn't cost $9M.

There is manufacturing involved, and let's say we'll need 150 machines instead of 46. But the expensive part lies in the engineering of these machines, not the manufacturing. Materials for test systems can't possibly cost that much.

For what it is worth, your point #2, 3, 4, and 7 are either missing the mark, or I don't see how they relate to why the transfer conversion machine is a bad idea. Graeme seems to have a much better understanding of what I am proposing, as does Tapioca.

At the end of the day, it really goes back to one very simple question -- should cash paying riders be charged twice for the same transit service? Telling everyone to get a compass card is not an answer to that question -- it is a workaround that may not be viable to 6000 people a day.

Points 2,3,4 and 7 nail this shit down.

You didn't account for the actual physical cost of the machine AT ALL.

So let's open up iCalc and figger it out.

1x dvd player costs 29.95(no name brand...cause cost savings, yo)
These machines would need to be 10x the size of a dvd player
Therefore, each machine should cost $299.50

x46 =$13,777 but we might need that actual 150 which would be $44925

So you are right, obviously those costs are nothing so that doesn't matter.

But you were right...we shouldn't have to accrue extra costs for testing. Ten engineers working for 9 months should have more than enough time to test the machines too. Lazy fuckers.

[Lomac]

I'm going to reiterate my previous post, but this time quoting directly from Translink:

He said there will be a transitional period in which both options will be accepted while TransLink teaches the public about its new system. During this time, retailers such as 7-11 will carry all available types of fare, including monthly and pre-loadable Compass Cards.

Both tickets will still be accepted during the transition period, after which only Compass cards will be allowed for both.

WHY THE FUCK are people still arguing about this? The transition time will allow cash users to swing by a 7-11 and pick up a goddamn Compass card so they wont have to worry about paying twice. And if they don't buy one and still complain about it, well it's their own goddamn fucking fault for not changing with the times.

:banghead:

[dinosaur]

:willnill::eek5r:

[Gridlock]

I'm going to reiterate my previous post, but this time quoting directly from Translink:



Both tickets will still be accepted during the transition period, after which only Compass cards will be allowed for both.

WHY THE FUCK are people still arguing about this? The transition time will allow cash users to swing by a 7-11 and pick up a goddamn Compass card so they wont have to worry about paying twice. And if they don't buy one and still complain about it, well it's their own goddamn fucking fault for not changing with the times.

:banghead:

No one is actually on the logic of anything now. Now its "I can design a better system than Translink could"

Awesome!

I wish everyone would Homer Simpson themselves up their life-long dream of being a bureaucrat at Translink and sit everyone in the conference room and say, "ok...10 engineers cost us $150k each, and they have 9 months to design it this way" and see how well that conversation goes over.

I feel like there is a fortune to be made selling "I'm with Stupid" t-shirts.

[Traum]

Points 2,3,4 and 7 nail this shit down.

You didn't account for the actual physical cost of the machine AT ALL.

Which is why I said there was $8M left for the manufacturing of the 46 machines. Clearly, building those 46 machines cannot use up all of the remaining $8M. I think you have completely missed that point.

Now, Graeme has correctly pointed out that we'll need more than 46 machines. I think it is reasonable to up that number to 150. But again, the expensive part is going to the be designing and engineering portion of the project. The manufacturing is going to be relatively cheap. I am not familiar with manufacturing myself, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the manufacturing costs alone for 150 machines will eat up $8M.

And that brings us back to the point that Translink shouldn't have needed $9M to come up with a plan to accomodate the cash paying riders.

[bing]

Just get a damn compass card. It's only a $6 deposit. If you can't even do that, stay the fuck home. I get a Octopus every time I visit HK, it works fine.

Typical whining Vancouverites.

[stewie]

they should just give out those old school paper transfers that the busses used to have, and just go on the honor system if your jumping on a train :D


gridlock
2) So the machines on the buses now need to produce paper transfer tickets AND be compatible with compass cards...and that system is going to be free. So the new system would have to sit there right next to the old system.

aren't the new machines just a little tap on the pad like some of those smart credit cards? cant see that machine taking up to much space on a bus. (im not sure, im just going from what that picture was posting from a person leaving the bus and tapping it on the wall)http://www.translink.ca/~/media/images/content/fares/compass_card/fill_how_to_use.ashx

ps - with now having a compass card, will they be slowing down on the need to check fares while on the trains from the transit police? or will they have some little hand held reader that can scan and find out when the last payment was? cause im pretty sure a few people will either walk through the gate with friends( 1 pays, 5 walk through) or they just jump the gate.

that new system looks pretty small, don't see why they cant just keep the two of them...kinda like the border crossing...you got the nexus line...and the regular line. :p

these compass cards cost 6$ each? how soon will it be until people learn how to use credit card/debit card skimmers and steal others credits lol

either way I don't care, I don't use public transportation lol.

[Lomac]

But again, the expensive part is going to the be designing and engineering portion of the project. The manufacturing is going to be relatively cheap. I am not familiar with manufacturing myself, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the manufacturing costs alone for 150 machines will eat up $8M.

Retooling a production line for a limited run (and, yes, 150 units is a very small production run) costs a lot of money. Typically just retooling a plant will cost a couple million in and of itself, depending on what's needed and what has to be fabricated.

[Soundy]

The first question that pops into mind is, why da fxxk would it cost a frickin $9M to retrofit all 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations with some sort of machine to deal with the transfer ticket conversion situation?
Okay then, what WOULD be an acceptable break-even point? Is one million too much to spend? $100k? Remember now, you're not necessarily just talking one machine per station, but possibly two or three in high-volume stations (otherwise, God forbid they have to stand in line a little longer!), plus the required upkeep on them, all for something that SHOULD only be temporary anyway and will need to be removed and scrapped in the near future... good money after bad, anyone?

What it comes down to is this: THE NUMBER PEOPLE WHO WILL BE AFFECTED DOESN'T EVEN AMOUNT TO A STATISTICAL ANOMALY. The problem isn't that they can't manage it, the problem is that THEY CAN'T BE BOTHERED and expect hundreds of thousands of other people, who have no problem switching to the new system, to cover the cost of their selfishness.

How about this: I'd go along with catering to this tiny group, if they want to pay for the cost of doing it. Let's say the number is WAY off and it only costs $50k per station, all-in, conversion, installation, and maintenance included, to a whopping total of $2.3M (yeah, $50k * 46 stations adds up fast). Now let's divide that by 6,000 people who want to take advantage of this... that's $383.33 per person. Think they'd be happy to pay that?

I think they'd be better off paying the extra $3 per trip...

Good fucking job I don't think for myself, I'd never have been able to do the math...

[Traum]

Retooling a production line for a limited run (and, yes, 150 units is a very small production run) costs a lot of money. Typically just retooling a plant will cost a couple million in and of itself, depending on what's needed and what has to be fabricated.
Good point. At the same time, limited production runs happen all over the world all the time. How do those guys keep their costs in check? I am not asking for a hand-made soap box racer type of build. But this issue should come up frequent enough for there to be a cheaper solution, wouldn't you think?

[Soundy]

I wish everyone would Homer Simpson themselves up their life-long dream of being a bureaucrat at Translink and sit everyone in the conference room and say, "ok...10 engineers cost us $150k each, and they have 9 months to design it this way" and see how well that conversation goes over.


Ladies and gentlemen, I present you... the new, improved, Traum-approved TRANSLINK!

http://onscreencars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TheHomer.jpg

Edit: Hmmm, would that be TraumsLink then??? :fulloffuck:

[bing]

Which is why I said there was $8M left for the manufacturing of the 46 machines. Clearly, building those 46 machines cannot use up all of the remaining $8M. I think you have completely missed that point.

Now, Graeme has correctly pointed out that we'll need more than 46 machines. I think it is reasonable to up that number to 150. But again, the expensive part is going to the be designing and engineering portion of the project. The manufacturing is going to be relatively cheap. I am not familiar with manufacturing myself, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the manufacturing costs alone for 150 machines will eat up $8M.

And that brings us back to the point that Translink shouldn't have needed $9M to come up with a plan to accomodate the cash paying riders.

you said it yourself, you are NOT familiar with the design nor any aspect of manufacturing at all. I think I'll trust the board on this one.

[Traum]

How about this: I'd go along with catering to this tiny group, if they want to pay for the cost of doing it. Let's say the number is WAY off and it only costs $50k per station, all-in, conversion, installation, and maintenance included, to a whopping total of $2.3M (yeah, $50k * 46 stations adds up fast). Now let's divide that by 6,000 people who want to take advantage of this... that's $383.33 per person. Think they'd be happy to pay that?

I think they'd be better off paying the extra $3 per trip...
Personally, I would look at the break-even analysis like this:

- 6000 per day paying double the fare
- 1 zone is $2.75.

So we are looking at 6000/day x $2.75 = $16500/day, or
$16.5k/day x 30 days = $495k/month, or
$16.5k/day x 365 days = $6,022,500/yr

So by only offering a Compass card to lure these cash paying riders away from paying cash, Translink stands to potentially bring in an extra $6M/yr by charging them twice.

I see where this is going now... :lawl:

Realistically, with the Compass card being the only alternative (to getting charged twice), there will be a sizeable portion of casual transit users that switch to the Compass card instead. So pulling a percentage out of the hat, let's say Translink will still bring in an extra $4M (instead of $6M) per year by charging people twice.

And now the question becomes -- how much money should Translink spend to avoid double charging these paying customers? If they don't do anything, they stand to make an extra $4M a year.

I am not a rocket scientist nor a business analyst. I just happen to do some thinking out loud here on a public forum.

[bobbinka]

I am not a rocket scientist nor a business analyst.

glad we got that sorted out

[Mr.HappySilp]

TransLink salary raises irk taxpayer watchdog | Vancouver 24 hrs (http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2013/08/15/translink-salary-raises-irk-taxpayer-watchdog)

In the article it states
He said those with the old “proof of payment” bus tickets jumping SkyTrain gates when Compass is fully implemented will be considered fare evaders.

“Fare evasion and jumping gates (is) not a safe solution,” he said. “It’s much easier to get and use a Compass Card or ticket.”

Another option of installing machines at SkyTrain stations that would take old paper transfers and exchange them for a Compass-compatible card would have cost at least $9 million, Zabel added.

So now they are forcing people who pay cash to get on the bus to pay again. I still don't get it though. The bus fare is prof of payment so why can't I use it go on the skytrain? What if someone open the gates for me to go on or I don't have to jump the gates to go on? I am not endangering anyone that way. So now translink is denying bus fare to be prof of payment? If that's the case they should let poeple who pay cash to board the bus free at least for the frist month or so and have the bus driver advice people they need to get a compass.

[bing]

It's free with a $6 deposit and entitles the user to 14 per cent off the cost of the trip.

Traum: if this is true, what would be the long-term benefit of paying cash anyways? If you ride daily, you'd get a return on your "investment" quite quickly, notwithstanding it is a deposit.

[bobbinka]

I think there's an obvious solution to this.

-The card is $6, and there are 6000 people affected.
-Traum pays $36,000 to cover the costs of getting Compass cards for each person

problem solved! Taxpayers are happy, we're happy, the 6000 riders are happy, everyone's happy! don't worry Traum, it's just a deposit

[Traum]

Traum: if this is true, what would be the long-term benefit of paying cash anyways? If you ride daily, you'd get a return on your "investment" quite quickly, notwithstanding it is a deposit.
I don't know what the benefit is with paying cash in this case. But apparently, some people (6000 of them a day) prefer to continue using cash even if there is a monetary incentive to not do so.

But now that I have looked at the extra revenue that double charging people could bring in for Translink, I think that has to be part of the reason why they don't want to bother accommodating the cash-paying riders.

[Gridlock]

So conspiracy.

Is that your final answer?

[Traum]

So conspiracy.

Is that your final answer?
Don't call it a conspiracy, Grid. Just look at the numbers yourself and come to your own conclusion.

[bobbinka]

Don't call it a conspiracy, Grid. Just look at the numbers yourself and come to your own conclusion.

you mean, the numbers you admittedly pulled out of your hat? your non rocket scientist nor business analyst hat?

it's hard to draw a valid conclusion when the numbers are made up and the points don't matter

[Traum]

you mean, the numbers you admittedly pulled out of your hat? your non rocket scientist nor business analyst hat?

it's hard to draw a valid conclusion when the numbers are made up and the points don't matter
Dude, have you read up on anything regarding this issue at all? The numbers I quoted are all based on known facts and info that Translink has released themselves:

- 6000 cash-paying riders per day that will be affected
- the fare for a 1 zone ticket is $2.75

So we are looking at 6000/day x $2.75 = $16500/day, or
$16.5k/day x 30 days = $495k/month, or
$16.5k/day x 365 days = $6,022,500/yr

This is a projected $6M's worth of extra revenue that Translink will receive based on nothing but factual figures.

I acknowledged that a portion of the $6M revenue will likely not materialize as people shift away from paying cash in order to avoid double paying. The only "number out of the hat" is how big that portion will be, but that one is really anybody's guess. We all know cash payment will never entirely go away.

[K-Dub]

Personally, I would look at the break-even analysis like this:

- 6000 per day paying double the fare
- 1 zone is $2.75.

So we are looking at 6000/day x $2.75 = $16500/day, or
$16.5k/day x 30 days = $495k/month, or
$16.5k/day x 365 days = $6,022,500/yr

So by only offering a Compass card to lure these cash paying riders away from paying cash, Translink stands to potentially bring in an extra $6M/yr by charging them twice.

I see where this is going now... :lawl:

Realistically, with the Compass card being the only alternative (to getting charged twice), there will be a sizeable portion of casual transit users that switch to the Compass card instead. So pulling a percentage out of the hat, let's say Translink will still bring in an extra $4M (instead of $6M) per year by charging people twice.

And now the question becomes -- how much money should Translink spend to avoid double charging these paying customers? If they don't do anything, they stand to make an extra $4M a year.

I am not a rocket scientist nor a business analyst. I just happen to do some thinking out loud here on a public forum.

Who in their right mind would continue their day by day transit, each time paying the double fare? Then the real idiocy here is the user, not the provider.

Lesson learned, get a Compass. This is just a forceful push from Translink to get people onto this new system.

OMG TRANSLINK IS DOING THIS ON PURPOSE TO MAKE +$6m / YEAR!! CONSPIRACY!

Fuck. Seriously.

[bobbinka]

The numbers I quoted are all based on known facts and info that Translink has released themselves:


That's $6M of revenue and revenue alone. You have not and CANNOT account for the costs that would be associated with buying, implementing, and maintaining the system. Revenue is nothing if the costs exceed it, costs that neither you or I have the actual numbers for. So let's stop pretending we know what they are.

"Translink would make this much"
"Translink would break even if..."
"The costs couldn't be greater than..."

No. You don't know, we don't know.

[Traum]

Who in their right mind would continue their day by day transit, each time paying the double fare? Then the real idiocy here is the user, not the provider.
These are very likely people who only use public transit on an occasional basis. If someone only take the bus and then Skytrain to Downtown 3 or 4 times a year, does it make sense for them to buy and keep a Compass card, and have its funds locked up in the card the rest of the year? Some will still do it. Others won't.

That's $6M of revenue and revenue alone. You have not and CANNOT account for the costs that would be associated with buying, implementing, and maintaining the system. Revenue is nothing if the costs exceed it, costs that neither you or I have the actual numbers for. So let's stop pretending we know what they are.

It's good to see you acknowledging that there is potentially a $6M extra revenue at stake for Translink. With that particular estimate established, the discussion should then be focused on whether it is right for Translink to do nothing and reap in that extra revenue by double charging people. Judging by the posts here, some such as K-Dub will think that these people should pay for their own idiocy. Others such as myself will think this is not the right thing to do. And that is precisely what we have been doing all along in this thread.

[Eff-1]

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.

This reminds me of the retired guy who shows up to strata council meetings with large pie charts and a laser pointer.

[TPMarko]

i drive the majority of the time for my commute and only use bus to avoid drunk driving or going to downtown where parking is $$$. i carry a car2go card even tho i rarely use it because you never know when its handy and i plan on getting a compass card for the same reasons. i don't see what the fuss is about. its $6 to get a fucking card that pays for itself in the 14% discount you will get off the fares. why is this so difficult?

[twitchyzero]

EDIT: Misleading title.. read through the article, and it's the same in Korea. If you pay with cash, the box doesn't print out a ticket. No one seems to care.. then again, everyone uses a transit card here.

Judging from majority of the responses people jumped on the hate wagon before reading the article

dont get me wrong...I have my fair shares of Translink rant...but this subpar implementation isn't something to lose sleep over...get a Compass Card that costs a few dollars and your problems will be solved.

[bobbinka]

It's good to see you acknowledging that there is potentially a $6M extra revenue at stake for Translink. With that particular estimate established, the discussion should then be focused on whether it is right for Translink to do nothing and reap in that extra revenue by double charging people. Judging by the posts here, some such as K-Dub will think that these people should pay for their own idiocy. Others such as myself will think this is not the right thing to do. And that is precisely what we have been doing all along in this thread.

Revenue does not equate profit. That $6M of "potential" revenue does not mean anything without realizing the true cost of obtaining and maintaining that $6M revenue cash flow annually. The total cost of ownership must be considered, information that (again) we do not have, and therefore cannot draw a conclusion from.

If you want to shift the argument to "whether it's right or wrong", then you need to understand that decisions like this are not so black and white. No matter what decision any government or public organization makes, there will always be someone who will be unhappy. it would not be cost effective to try and please everyone. Do you think everyone was happy with building the Canada Line? What about the Port Mann Bridge and paying tolls?

Perhaps you should consider being a politician, maybe you can better help those people that are subject to these unfair changes.

[CP.AR]

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9s0oylfm21qz4w1go1_400.png

[MindBomber]

I don't know what the benefit is with paying cash in this case. But apparently, some people (6000 of them a day) prefer to continue using cash even if there is a monetary incentive to not do so.


Incorrect, Translink has not stated this point. You're demonstrating your lack of understanding, here.

At present, an average of six thousand people pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain. The alternative options to a cash fare are faresaver tickets or a monthly pass, the former less convenient and the later impractical for occasional users. Therefore, it is appropriate to expect the average of six thousand people who pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain to decline as a proportion will adopt the convenient Compass Card. My hypothesis is supportable through the example of other cities that have adopted similar programs, as they've seen high electronic pass adoption rates among users.

As a result, your arguments which include the six thousand people premise are invalid. The six thousand people may well drop to one thousand people, we don't know.

[Traum]

MindBomber,

It isn't my lack of understanding that I am demonstrating here. Rather, it is a lack of read comprehension that you have displayed. In my original post (http://www.revscene.net/forums/687282-skytrain-wont-take-bus-transfers-new-compass-card-system-8.html#post8302147), I have clearly indicated that a sizable portion will switch to the Compass card.

How small this cash-paying group will shrink to is anybody's guess. Initially, this group will probably only shrink a bit. Over time, it will continue to decline until it hits a plateau. There will always be people preferring or finding themselves the need to pay cash instead of using the Compass card.
Incorrect, Translink has not stated this point. You're demonstrating your lack of understanding, here.

At present, an average of six thousand people pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain. The alternative options to a cash fare are faresaver tickets or a monthly pass, the former less convenient and the later impractical for occasional users. Therefore, it is appropriate to expect the average of six thousand people who pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain to decline as a proportion will adopt the convenient Compass Card. My hypothesis is supportable through the example of other cities that have adopted similar programs, as they've seen high electronic pass adoption rates among users.

As a result, your arguments which include the six thousand people premise are invalid. The six thousand people may well drop to one thousand people, we don't know.

[daytona675]

I hope its as simple as scan and walk, and works that fast. That's how the system is in MTL, TO and NYC and it works really well and fast. However they use turnstiles and not gates.. too many moving parts = more parts to fix when it breaks down

my thoughts exactly, all those cities use turnstiles, and have proven track records for reliablilty. if you have the doors opening and closing 30x a minute, wouldn't you think those doors will just fall off sooner or later?

I'm not sure what translink was thinking. They'll eventually probably ask for more money later on to change all of those faregates into turnstiles.
those doors are going to take a beating and I estimate those doors aren't cheap either. lol

[daytona675]

Just curious.. but for who that are complaining, have they ever even used another transit system with a pass? Everything is being blown out of proportion.

I'm just curious if they'll make an NFC app.

maybe you should become an adviser for translink for thinking something like that!

[MindBomber]

MindBomber,

It isn't my lack of understanding that I am demonstrating here. Rather, it is a lack of read comprehension that you have displayed. In my original post (http://www.revscene.net/forums/687282-skytrain-wont-take-bus-transfers-new-compass-card-system-8.html#post8302147), I have clearly indicated that a sizable portion will switch to the Compass card.

How small this cash-paying group will shrink to is anybody's guess. Initially, this group will probably only shrink a bit. Over time, it will continue to decline until it hits a plateau. There will always be people preferring or finding themselves the need to pay cash instead of using the Compass card.

I stand corrected, thank you.

I have not displayed lacking reading comprehension, though. I interpreted the quoted post entirely accurately, and simply did not read the linked post. I haven't the time to read over all two-hundred posts on a nearly negligible percentage of transit transfers.

[Traum]

I stand corrected, thank you.

I have not displayed lacking reading comprehension, though. I interpreted the quoted post entirely accurately, and simply did not read the linked post. I haven't the time to read over all two-hundred posts on a nearly negligible percentage of transit transfers.
I stand corrected as well. Thank you.

[Soundy]

Don't call it a conspiracy, Grid. Just look at the numbers yourself and come to your own conclusion.

I was wondering when CharlesInCharge would show up in this thread.

http://i.imgur.com/DRntT.jpg

[UFO]

Seems like Translink is just listening to us drivers finally start gouging those who use the transportation services and give us drivers some slack

well now lets hope we drivers are given a break from more taxes to pay for bus/train services :/

Don't worry, they are just taking a break from gouging drivers. It will be back in no time

How so? Because the machines at SkyTrain stations can't read paper transfers? So what should they have done, spend a shitload of extra money to add that capability for something that's going to be phased out eventually anyway?


Another option of installing machines at SkyTrain stations that would take old paper transfers and exchange them for a Compass-compatible card would have cost at least $9 million, Zabel added.

One thing to note is that current Skytrain fare stations can already read the paper transfers with mag stripe. You can upgrade from a 1 zone to 2 zone fare by feeding in your 1 zone transfer (from a bus!), paying the difference, and you get a new 2 zone mag stripe transfer. So I personally don't buy that it will cost 'at least $9M' to retrofit all the existing machines to make them have the same capability, but with Compass. To me, and I'm not as much of an expert in this area as even Traum, seems like some software programming could have been done at relatively cheap prices to make everything work well together since all the hardware and machinery is already currently in place.

For the record I am completely pro-Compass, and this entire issue is blown out of proportion by the media sensationalists. THE simplest solution is for everybody to get a Compass card, life goes on and we are all happy. However I don't believe Translink is telling all of the facts in complete truth, rarely does this ever happen. They are saying it will cost $25M to equip every single bus with a Compass dispenser, whereas it will cost at least $9M to do the same with much fewer stations at Skytrains? Something doesn't add up

WTF, implementing compass to stop fare evaders? what a bullshit reason. I'm sure fare evaders will still find a way to get past the gates. it's not that hard to jump the gates.

uh, one of the biggest gripes about Skytrain since its implementation 25+ years ago was that you could simply walk on and walk off--this is something that was brought up EVERY time fare evasion became a discussion. The hardcore fare evaders will adapt and evolve and still find a free ride, but fare gates will discourage the casual fare evader, you know the ones who think "I pay my fare 9/10 times and I'm just a quarter short this time so I'll walk on since I likely won't be caught"--those include our dear Mayor Gregor Robertson.

We'll see how it works out in time. Even if you drive, I wouldn't be surprised if all the bridges were tolled in 10 years. LOL. Vancouver, what a great city, all of the first world problems to be had.
I bet in 10 years it won't just be the bridges that are tolled. If the big cheese get their way, you'll be tolled per mileage driven ,which is fair if you are willing to support transit being charged per distance vs. by zones.

[godwin]

TO's TTC has a simple solution have a gate that people will man to visually look at tickets.

Just because it can be automated, doesn't mean it doesn't have manual backup.

We have this thread where the majority of posters don't ever ride public transit and say it sucks, and we have a real estate thread where the majority are not even in the game, and tell everyone not in go in because the world is ending. Just because you are loud don't make what you say necessarily true or even will happen. :lawl:

[DragonChi]

Don't worry, they are just taking a break from gouging drivers. It will be back in no time



One thing to note is that current Skytrain fare stations can already read the paper transfers with mag stripe. You can upgrade from a 1 zone to 2 zone fare by feeding in your 1 zone transfer (from a bus!), paying the difference, and you get a new 2 zone mag stripe transfer. So I personally don't buy that it will cost 'at least $9M' to retrofit all the existing machines to make them have the same capability, but with Compass. To me, and I'm not as much of an expert in this area as even Traum, seems like some software programming could have been done at relatively cheap prices to make everything work well together since all the hardware and machinery is already currently in place.

For the record I am completely pro-Compass, and this entire issue is blown out of proportion by the media sensationalists. THE simplest solution is for everybody to get a Compass card, life goes on and we are all happy. However I don't believe Translink is telling all of the facts in complete truth, rarely does this ever happen. They are saying it will cost $25M to equip every single bus with a Compass dispenser, whereas it will cost at least $9M to do the same with much fewer stations at Skytrains? Something doesn't add up


uh, one of the biggest gripes about Skytrain since its implementation 25+ years ago was that you could simply walk on and walk off--this is something that was brought up EVERY time fare evasion became a discussion. The hardcore fare evaders will adapt and evolve and still find a free ride, but fare gates will discourage the casual fare evader, you know the ones who think "I pay my fare 9/10 times and I'm just a quarter short this time so I'll walk on since I likely won't be caught"--those include our dear Mayor Gregor Robertson.


I bet in 10 years it won't just be the bridges that are tolled. If the big cheese get their way, you'll be tolled per mileage driven ,which is fair if you are willing to support transit being charged per distance vs. by zones.

I think the issue with the Skytrains is that they have gates there, that are only RFID (compass). So if you don't have a RFID pass, then you can't get into the skytrain.

19 times out 20 I pay my fare, sometimes I forget change, even bus drivers know that and aren't money mongering execs, they still let me on the bus.

Yeah, the pay by distance on roads thing is a good idea. the question is, how are we going to measure everyone's usage? Put meters in all our cars, have cameras for plates everywhere, those are some ideas that were floating around when I was visiting a city that was thinking of implementing it. So yes, I would support pay be distance usage on roads.

Oh and about Translink employees getting paid a lot, I would rather pay them well, instead of them taking bribes for bullshit contracts to supplement their income. If they do a good job, then they should be paid well. But lately they don't seem to be on the ball, well, the decision makers anyways. I say we hire the people working the Australian transit system someone posted about earlier :D.

[Nlkko]

One thing to note is that current Skytrain fare stations can already read the paper transfers with mag stripe. You can upgrade from a 1 zone to 2 zone fare by feeding in your 1 zone transfer (from a bus!), paying the difference, and you get a new 2 zone mag stripe transfer. So I personally don't buy that it will cost 'at least $9M' to retrofit all the existing machines to make them have the same capability, but with Compass.


No shit right. Just go on eBay overnight some parts from China. Don't even need 10 engineers 9 months. You're a genius.

[UFO]

I think the issue with the Skytrains is that they have gates there, that are only RFID (compass). So if you don't have a RFID pass, then you can't get into the skytrain.


Yeah, the gates open with RFID. The current/old fare machines at Skytrains can read mag stripe transfers, so if they had wanted to they could have had the machines read the mag stripes and exchange it for an RFID pass and the fare gates themselves can still work on RFID only basis.

[bLUEsTEEL]

http://www.revscene.net/forums/678256-translinks-compass-card-stupid.html

[franklucas]

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/translink-ceo-ian-jarvis-stop-the-double-transit-fee

Online pettition against the double transit fee. SIGN it if your angry!
Posted via RS Mobile

[Graeme S]

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/translink-ceo-ian-jarvis-stop-the-double-transit-fee

Online pettition against the double transit fee. SIGN it if your angry !
Posted via RS Mobile
Sign if my angry what?

[Lomac]

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/translink-ceo-ian-jarvis-stop-the-double-transit-fee

Online pettition against the double transit fee. SIGN it if your angry!
Posted via RS Mobile

Hell no.

Quote from that petition:
TransLink is claiming this Double Transit Fee will only impact 6,000 riders. We find this extra fee punitive and this impact estimate hard to believe.

How is it hard to believe? All Translink has to do is look at the total cash from bus trips taken in at the end of the day, compare that amount to the day's total intake, and voila... you've got a very accurate number of how many people pay cash to ride a bus.

:facepalm:

[JesseBlue]

Sign if my angry what?

haha..

[Gridlock]

Hell no.

Quote from that petition:


How is it hard to believe? All Translink has to do is look at the total cash from bus trips taken in at the end of the day, compare that amount to the day's total intake, and voila... you've got a very accurate number of how many people pay cash to ride a bus.

:facepalm:

Oh Lomac. No. No. NOOOOOOOOO!

It's people that pay cash on a bus, then take the skytrain. They would have to estimate, as there is no way to know how because we don't actually measure skytrain usage.

I feel like we are getting close, here on page 10, to knowing what the actual problem is. Trauma is already working on a solution guys!

[Mr.HappySilp]

Hell no.

Quote from that petition:


How is it hard to believe? All Translink has to do is look at the total cash from bus trips taken in at the end of the day, compare that amount to the day's total intake, and voila... you've got a very accurate number of how many people pay cash to ride a bus.

:facepalm:

Not really what if people with a one zone pass bus board the bus and pay cash to travel to another zone?

[Alby]

to those people that sign and back up the petition, i have one question. translink already said it costs about $25 Million to upgrade the equipment in the buses to make it so that riders can pay cash and use the existing fare to ride the rail. and we know for a fact that its only a small percentage of the riders that pay cash on the bus. now, the people that decide to back up that petition, are you willing to pay more for your fare? are you willing to pay more taxes?

[Lomac]

Not really what if people with a one zone pass bus board the bus and pay cash to travel to another zone?

Then there would still be a transaction record in the system indicating as such.

[Razor Ramon HG]

to those people that sign and back up the petition, i have one question. translink already said it costs about $25 Million to upgrade the equipment in the buses to make it so that riders can pay cash and use the existing fare to ride the rail. and we know for a fact that its only a small percentage of the riders that pay cash on the bus. now, the people that decide to back up that petition, are you willing to pay more for your fare? are you willing to pay more taxes?

To put into perspective, 6000 of 1,200,000 daily riders is only 0.05%

In the grand scheme of things, it's such a small minority.. and I hate how people are bitching when they probably use a pass of their own now.

25,000,000 / 6000 = $4,167 of our tax dollars towards each of these daily cash riders refusing to get a damn pass
Posted via RS Mobile

[falcon]

I don't understand why they don't keep the paper tickets? In London they have the Oyster card but you can also buy a single trip paper ticket from a machine. It's not required that you have a card. Looking at the turnstiles at all the stations recently I don't see any slots for a paper ticket to go through.

If it's because they think it will be too slow, just put the stripe down the center of the cards like they do there and IIRC in Barcelona and the ticket can go in any of the four possible directions. Comes out the other side and you grab it as you walk by. Simple.

[Graeme S]

I don't understand why they don't keep the paper tickets? In London they have the Oyster card but you can also buy a single trip paper ticket from a machine. It's not required that you have a card. Looking at the turnstiles at all the stations recently I don't see any slots for a paper ticket to go through.

If it's because they think it will be too slow, just put the stripe down the center of the cards like they do there and IIRC in Barcelona and the ticket can go in any of the four possible directions. Comes out the other side and you grab it as you walk by. Simple.
Among other reasons, because paper tickets are disposable and you then lose the data-based advantage that Translink is gunning for with this set of upgrades. It's not just about the transition to tap or paperless tickets, it's about the amount of information that translink can get when they look at where you start, where you go, what transfers you make, how long you stay at each transfer point and so on and so forth.

Why? So they can do better planning on how to get you from point A to point B faster and more efficiently. Which is what everyone is constantly harping at them to do all the time.

[UFO]

^Falcon: I think what you're suggesting there is the 'at least $9M' fix to allow the gates to read mag stripe transfers. Although cheaper than equipping all buses to dispense RFID Compass cards, still not worth it IMO for the ~6000 who pay cash on the bus and want to transfer, especially if the end goal is to transition everybody onto Compass over time and mine that user data

[BaoTurbo]

Btw the gate is gonna open per person gate? Or is it a turnstile?

[SoNaRWaVe]

^ its going to open per person that taps. seriously to the people complaining about this whole no transition from bus to skytrain: just effing get the card and load money onto it. if you're going to be paying cash anyways to ride the system, whats so hard to just put that cash into a frigging card?

[godwin]

I love mag stripes.. a simple old walkman with headphone and microphone jack + any computer can decode and encode as many cards as you like. It is great to be able to reuse old technology.

I don't understand why they don't keep the paper tickets? In London they have the Oyster card but you can also buy a single trip paper ticket from a machine. It's not required that you have a card. Looking at the turnstiles at all the stations recently I don't see any slots for a paper ticket to go through.

If it's because they think it will be too slow, just put the stripe down the center of the cards like they do there and IIRC in Barcelona and the ticket can go in any of the four possible directions. Comes out the other side and you grab it as you walk by. Simple.

[nabs]

I hope that you will have the ability to reload the compass card online at home. I know times when I use the bus its usually a last resort, but i scramble around for change, it would be awesome to know i can refill online.

[Anjew]

i would rather that $25 million go towards possible NFC phone/bcid(??) integration upgrades in the future. The 6000 estimate would drop considerably and EVERYONE would benefit.

[hotjoint]

I hope that you will have the ability to reload the compass card online at home. I know times when I use the bus its usually a last resort, but i scramble around for change, it would be awesome to know i can refill online.

hope so

[Anjew]

I hope that you will have the ability to reload the compass card online at home. I know times when I use the bus its usually a last resort, but i scramble around for change, it would be awesome to know i can refill online.

i was listening to news1130 and a translink rep who was answering questions said you would be able to refill it online.

[Graeme S]

Safety and Security (http://www.translink.ca/en/Fares-and-Passes/Compass-Card/Safety-and-Security.aspx)
Your Identity is Safe
Although Compass Cards and tickets are electronic, no personal customer information – such as name, credit card or banking identity – is stored on the electronic chip. The chip only identifies the product or value stored on the card, and the card's serial number and status. Any personal information that's required will be kept in the secure "back office" system and not on the card itself.


Balance Protection
For added security, customers that choose to register their Compass Card will benefit from balance protection, protecting the value of the card in the event it's lost or stolen. Card registration also offers "AutoLoad" – a convenience feature for pass renewals or top-ups when the card's stored value drops below a certain amount.


Safer and Smarter
The electronic chip in every Compass Card not only helps to protect your balance and your personal privacy; it also helps to directly improve the overall efficiency of our transit system. All of the chips being tapped in and out will deliver mass data on how customers use transit – and harnessing this data will help us gain a better understanding of which routes are busy and which are not, and how people transfer - allowing us to better plan and assess the needs of our riders.

System Improvements
In addition, preparations for Compass will also create opportunities for more system improvements.
Better lighting, greater accessibility and expanded stations
Upgrades to Expo Line (27+ years old)
Replacement of existing expanded metal mesh panels with glass at some Expo Line stations for greater visibility
Additional closed–circuit cameras and control centres to monitor customer safety and security
New centres dedicated to monitoring faregate operations
Improved elevator entrances
Installation of new customer assistance telephones at stations all around the system to help answer questions, and a new customer service centre to assist Compass cardholders

[stewie]

Safety and Security (http://www.translink.ca/en/Fares-and-Passes/Compass-Card/Safety-and-Security.aspx)

question regarding their safety and security of lost/stolen wallets/cards...

since skytrains and busses have security cameras at the entrances of the stations and on the busses...if your wallet or card ever gets stolen, would you be able to call them up and find the last time your card was used, and have them bring up the video footage of when the person used it so you could get a sight of who they are? or would that be way to much work for them, resulting in them saying...spend another 6$ on a new card.

[Graeme S]

question regarding their safety and security of lost/stolen wallets/cards...

since skytrains and busses have security cameras at the entrances of the stations and on the busses...if your wallet or card ever gets stolen, would you be able to call them up and find the last time your card was used, and have them bring up the video footage of when the person used it so you could get a sight of who they are? or would that be way to much work for them, resulting in them saying...spend another 6$ on a new card.
Ever had your phone stolen, and you call the phone company asking where it is and whether it's called anyone? They'll tell you that they don't have access to that information. Imagine if you had an abusive wife or husband who was trying to track down their spouse and knew the spouse's information well enough to claim that they had their wallet/compass stolen. "Yes, I'd like to know if it's been used since I got off at X place, to see if I can find it. Oh, it has? Can you tell me where?"

Even if they can track it, they'll most likely not release that information to you. It's not unpossible that it'll be easier for them to cross-reference things with the cops however.

[stewie]

^ never had anything stolen actually :p

Was just wondering if it would be like a credit card(gets stolen and they can find out where and when it was last used). If people are daily users, they'd probably tend to load the card with more to make loading less frequent.

If I were to load it up with 50$ to find out after 2-3 days it gets stolen and some prick uses it for the next month, I'd be kinda pissed lol

But oh well
Posted via RS Mobile

[Verdasco]

was in an empty bus and a mother of 2 told her kids that the future tickets from skytrains can not transfer to buses, the kids almost cried... i almost cried (they were very poor)

:okay:

[Lomac]

Ever had your phone stolen, and you call the phone company asking where it is and whether it's called anyone? They'll tell you that they don't have access to that information. Imagine if you had an abusive wife or husband who was trying to track down their spouse and knew the spouse's information well enough to claim that they had their wallet/compass stolen. "Yes, I'd like to know if it's been used since I got off at X place, to see if I can find it. Oh, it has? Can you tell me where?"

Even if they can track it, they'll most likely not release that information to you. It's not unpossible that it'll be easier for them to cross-reference things with the cops however.

I know it was on purpose, but I had to...

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/fzfYyMkz5u8/hqdefault.jpg

[bing]

was in an empty bus and a mother of 2 told her kids that the future tickets from skytrains can not transfer to buses, the kids almost cried... i almost cried (they were very poor)

:okay:

:yuno:

Should have mentioned that compass would actually save them money.

[Soundy]

was in an empty bus and a mother of 2 told her kids that the future tickets from skytrains can not transfer to buses, the kids almost cried... i almost cried (they were very poor)

:okay:

:yuno:

Should have mentioned that compass would actually save them money.

And this is the problem with all the hysteria around this: not only are they getting worked up over an option that's more expensive anyway, they're getting worked up over WRONG information. :speechless:

[Verdasco]

cliffs on how they save money? :pokerface:

[Soundy]

cliffs on how they save money? :pokerface:

Cliff says read the fucking thread.

[UFO]

If I were to load it up with 50$ to find out after 2-3 days it gets stolen and some prick uses it for the next month, I'd be kinda pissed lol
Posted via RS Mobile

For added security, customers that choose to register their Compass Card will benefit from balance protection, protecting the value of the card in the event it's lost or stolen.


Nothing to worry about if you register your card. Same idea as Starbucks' giftcards with balance protection IF you register