[jasonturbo]

Hello RS,

*Disclaimer: This is all a matter of opinion :)

First of all, a bit of a history lesson, I have owned a number of vehicles, more than most (Possibly even more than TOFU!), many of which have been modified, some of which include; (In order of most recent)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/photo-8.jpg
2005 STI, current winter car, about to receive bunch of mods this week!

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/3.png
2004 BMW M3, lots of parts, loved this car.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/STI/stipic2.jpg
2011 STI, lots of parts, big dissapointment.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/night2.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/beforethepull.jpg
2001 DC2-R, lots of parts, super clean, the BEST CAR I HAVE EVER OWNED.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/IMG01104-1.jpg
1999 EM1; B18C-R, coils, typical ricer honda interior bits

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/Civic%20SI/P9150005.jpg
2008 Civic Si, not a bad DD.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/IMG00194.jpg
2001 S2k, basically stock, such a great car.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/IMG00068.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/IMG00049.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/IMG00093.jpg
1998 DC2-R, lots of parts, did N/A build, pure nightmare, #regretmodding.

Just as a general comment, this is only going back to 2009-ish, prior to that I owned a large variety of modded/swapped Honda's and Nissan's. I am also leaving out a number of recent vehicles such as my K20A2 EP3 and 1997 DC2-R. I will not even bother touching on all the vehicles that belonged to other people that I have had the chance to drive.

Moving right along!... Just a few months ago I purchased this rather immaculate 2007 Porsche GT3;

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/photo-6.jpg
2007 Porsche 911 GT3 for sale, 6-Speed Manual, Vancouver, B.C., Canada, Weissach (http://www.weissach.com/auto/detail/?s=Porsche&c=All&pg=5&id=1981&tp=auto) <---- more pics

This purchase was significant for me for the following reasons;
- The price tag of 100k, I am not rich, nor do I come from a rich family etc.
- I have wanted one of these cars for the better part of 5 years.
- Because race car.

Now for the part where I explain how the GT3 did not live up to my expectations... or how it exceeded them in an unacceptable manner :s Simply put, the car is TOO FAST.

Right now a number of you are sitting there looking at your screen saying "Well it's a GT3, what the #*$& did you think it would be, slow?"... Yeah yeah yeah, I know, just wait, I'll explain.

It is difficult to enjoy the car on the street for the following reasons;
- Acceleration: First gear is no fun in any car, second gear winds out to 120km/hr +, so if you feel like wringing the car out, you are playing a very risky game with the Police, and potentially the safety of yourself and others.
- Handling: You can take any turn in the city at 100km/hr+ and you will never even be touching on the capabilities of the chassis/suspension, and you feel this, it all feels very boring at any speed less than ludicrous.
- Braking: You can't legally achieve any speed that will even get these brakes warmed up.

Overall: Yes this car is an amazing machine, but you can only actually experience this amazement on a RACE TRACK, period. Perhaps if I lived near VIR and could track my car 10+ times per summer and afford the crazy costs associated with Porsche race car maintenance and repair it would make more sense.

So what does it all mean and why did I feel the need to share this?

I suspect that many of you are similar to myself, you see a GT3/Lambo/Ferrari and you assume driving a car like that can provide an experience that is unmatched by your Honda/Nissan/Toyota/Etc. piece of shit. Well yes, it can provide an experience that is unmatched by your moms G35, but, only if you have access to a world class race track, or are willing to risk losing your license and killing bystanders on the reg.

Now on the other hand, let's talk about your piece of shit and the experience it provides.
- Your car is slow, you say things like "I'm going to break a 15 second quarter with this new skunk2 header" (No, it won't btw)... though your car is slow, it's also poorly built for high speed, so it offers the sensation of going fast!
- Most corners and off ramps are exciting, that shitty suspension geometry makes it feel very unstable and exciting, cause it is!
- Braking, the odd time you have to get on your brakes, it's a constant reminder that you need a BBK! #exciting

Simply put, your car that costs <15k is much more fun on the street every day than a 100K GT3 or any real super car etc.

So for all of you people on RS with shitty old imports, don't covet other peoples expensive cars, chances are they don't have nearly as much fun as you do :) Yeah they're probably ballin' and get more pussy than you do, but hey, #tinder has got your back. I swear that I would have more fun in Westophers E36, MB's MR2, lexluthor09's S2k, TRD RS200's EK9, long's ITR, TOFU's Fiat (Assuming you still own it), Tjalmeida's BRZ (OR was it FRS?), Snails' EF (**SORRY!**), etc than I do in the GT3, or any other car with that level of performance.

Anyway, I know this is a mess, but I'm strongly considering getting back into a slower car so that I can once again enjoy driving fast. Of all the cars I have owned and driven, the one that stands out most to me was my Yellow ITR :( We were so perfect for each other.

Discuss, has anyone else experienced the same feelings? Cars that perform too well to be enjoyed on the street???

BRB buying ITR.

[dared3vil0]

More fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

I hate to use such an over used cliche but it's true.

Though i can't even begin to imagine what a GT3 must be like, i had WAY more fun on the street in an 07 Civic Si, than the Mustang, simply because manual trans in the Si, and i would shift like 4 times to get to 120kmh. The Mustang? Tap the little "selecshift BS lever" once and 2nd gear is good to 140kmh. breaking every speed limit in BC by a good margin in 2nd gear is ridiculously boring.

Here's to driving slow cars at speeds that are relatively tame, and having a metric fuck ton of fun.

[Yodamaster]

I intend to make my next purchase a beater 240/60/80Z to thrash without giving a shit, a large part of having fun is not having to worry about scratches, dents, and rust.

[fliptuner]

So what you're saying is, you need smaller tires and shitty brakes. :badpokerface:

I understand what you mean, which is why I don't ride sportbikes any longer.

[Lomac]

And you were so excited to buy it, too! lol

I do have to agree with you, however. I've been lucky enough to drive some exotics in the past (DB9, F430 Scud, LP560-4, 996 GT3, R35 GTR) and while they were all fantastic experiences, I was always fearful of having too much fun in them. They were all so fast and capable that you could never really have any fun unless you were at their limits, which all tended to be at close to twice the legal speed limit of the Coquihalla or the type of cornering at the 'Ring. You're always watching your speed and throttle position because two seconds of burying the throttle at second gear will undoubtedly rocket you to speeds that will give a traffic cop a field day.

Whereas on the flip side, just like how James May likes to talk about the Fiat Panda being more fun, "shittier" cars have less power and less grip, so you're always closer to the edge of those car's limits. As a result, taking that twisty mountain road at 70km/h is more fun because you're starting to test the limit of your own abilities and not the car.

[Noran]

Okay James May.

IMO anything above 200hp can't be exploited in any "safe" manner on any road in BC.

pls track your 997GT3 at least once and take as many gopros as you can.

[dared3vil0]

Okay James May.

IMO anything above 200hp can't be exploited in any "safe" manner on any road in BC.

pls track your 997GT3 at least once and take as many gopros as you can.

I'm sure there any plenty of sub 200hp Miata's etc that have cornering speeds nearing super car territory, it jus took them a hell of a lot longer to get there!

[jasonturbo]

You're always watching your speed and throttle position because two seconds of burying the throttle at second gear will undoubtedly rocket you to speeds that will give a traffic cop a field day.



This X10000000

[The_AK]

I feel you on this post, first thing thought that came to my mind when I upgraded to my latest car was "where will I be enjoying this?". That being said I've overcome this problem ;)

Out of curiosity though, why do you feel the 2011 STI was a big disappointment compared to 2005? I have a friend who's potentially going to buy one.

[jasonturbo]

Out of curiosity though, why do you feel the 2011 STI was a big disappointment compared to 2005? I have a friend who's potentially going to buy one.

To me the GR was not much of an improvement over the GD, specific complaints I had about the GR include;
- Handling was horrid, even after KW V3, big sticky rubber, RCE sways, and proper alignment.
- Interior plastics show everything!!! They mark up so easy it's crazy.
- Road noise, oh god the road noise.
- Paint quality certainly hasn't improved at Subaru over the last 20 years
- Gas door wouldn't open
- GR was an ugly car I tried to learn to love, turns out ugly stays ugly forever.

Specifically what do I like about the GD more? (All IMO)
- Chassis communicates much better
- Interior materials are superior
- Ricer spoiler (jk)
- "feels" faster than GR
- Parts are plentiful and cheaper!

Mehhh, I never took at GR STI for test drive before I bought one, big mistake. I still believe it's a much better car for the money than EVO X though.

[PuYang]

I really like your post for many reasons. One, I feel the same (minus having a list of awesome cars). I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand? or atleast believe you sincerely :P

I own a (was brand new) GTI mk6, which I traded in my 1999 Honda Prelude for. The GTI is a great car, but part of me keeps wanting to go back to older/used cars. The Prelude wasn't great at all. Definitely not a ITR. But I still miss it. Just shifting through the gears was so much more fun. The clunkyness added more character and fun than my "refined" GTI.

I keep telling myself to go look for a nice Integra Type R... but I already paid off my GTI and can't possibly let it go so quickly after doing so.

^ after typing that, I sorta realized your experience is much more different than mine. GTI is a POS in comparison to most of those cars on your list LOL.

Its funny when people ask what my dream cars are, and I list a bunch of cars sub $30k. I strongly believe I'd have so much more fun in a cheaper car.

If I may ask, what was so different from your Yellow ITR to your White one? One you labelled as a nightmare, and the other is your best car ever. What kinda mods did you do to them that makes them so different?

[jasonturbo]

If I may ask, what was so different from your Yellow ITR to your White one? One you labelled as a nightmare, and the other is your best car ever. What kinda mods did you do to them that makes them so different?

Yellow car has very low miles, I think the chassis just felt really fresh, bushings in better shape, chassis metal has undergone less cyclic loading etc. The yellow car was totally one of those "more than the sum of it's parts" things. The engine and trans in the yellow car were also just super healthy, that ITR didn't squeak or rattle at all, exhaust sounded perfect, spoon suspension was amazing, etc. It was just perfect. I sold it 4 months after it was out of the body shop, I guess yellow hard to spot, two different people crashed into that car within 3 months of the fresh repaint. FML I was bitter, sold the car.

White car, ugh. Engine always felt weak, eventually the exhaust cam seized in bearing surface and t-belt skipped teeth. Got lucky and pistons didn't suffer any damage, went to install new head and discovered that half of the head studs were installed by apes, someone had stripped a bunch of threads out on the block side. Eventually got that all straightened out and then made the mistake of installing Sk2 pro 1 cams, I hate Sk2 products but took a chance. Mistake, Pro 1 makes shit power unless you are very high comp. Ended up trading that white ITR + cash for the S2k, S2k was wonderful :)

[sdubfid]

A brake rotor on that Porsche is worth more than my vehicle.

[jeedee]

sooooo.....................does this mean I can have your GT3 :)

sierce

[twitchyzero]

moral of the story
buy all da intgwa type ARRs
inflate the market value :troll:

[hud 91gt]

I feel bad you had to spend 100k to find out what anyone spending 3k on a sport bike knows ;) sigh. At least it's still gorgeous when you walk by it. Haha


Edit: I see ice boy beat me to it. Ha

[GotRice?]

but a porsche can get lots of badges

[jasonturbo]

I feel bad you had to spend 100k to find out what anyone spending 3k on a sport bike knows ;) sigh. At least it's still gorgeous when you walk by it. Haha


Edit: I see ice boy beat me to it. Ha

I did the sport bike things years ago lol I almost crashed it a few times, got lucky, decided to quit while ahead :s

[fliptuner]

There's enough money up there to break even or profit, no?

[Groot]

i remember pming you about your PY ITR back when. Wish I had the money to build it back then :okay::tears:

[radioman]

So you're telling me to buy a Cayman s right? This is all I got from this ;)

[yray]

you forgot that every brocivic wants to race you :lol

[SkinnyPupp]

don't covet other peoples expensive cars

This should be the main point of this post. Of course applying to everything, not just cars.

[TjAlmeida]

Tjalmeida's BRZ (OR was it FRS?)


.....Trade? :ifyouknow:


Just bugging. Cool read and nice to hear from the other side of the spectrum! I am in the same boat.. sort of. I miss owning something cheaper, older, that i enjoy pushing more. I seem to be always finding myself on on the teeter between fun and fuel efficient. Where as when i had my FC, not that i miss treated it, but i had so much fun red lining it and at the end of the day getting 12mpg and fueling 94 I was still smiling.

Now I am getting minimum 26mpg and i get upset because I know i could have gotten closer to 27-28.. SMH

Good luck with your sale and hope you enjoy and appreciate what your next vehicle brings you.

[tastic]

If you sell, are you also considering another porsche with less hp or will you be getting something from your previously-owned list?

[meme405]

Honestly if a bury the throttle in my FX (By all standards a VERY AVERAGE car) ill be exceeding the speed limit everywhere I go...

I get the point of the post, but realistically a lot of the cars on the road today can completely demolish the speed limits set almost anywhere (especially BC), and I am not just talking in a straight line.

I could take most off ramps at speeds which would be classified as "excessive" on the main hwy in my 2007 toyota camry, and not break a sweat, and trust me there is nothing inspiring about a 4cyl toyota camry...

Your whole post, kinda brings me right back to this video from Chris Harris where he describes his 2cv as the greatest car ever, simply because of the fact that its so god damn slow:

The World's Best Car: Chris Harris's Citroën 2CV - YouTube

[bcrdukes]

jasonturbo - Why'd you have to break it to Shark Tank like this? Man, you are one cold bastard.

[hk20000]

Tofu is famous.

[CP.AR]

i had so much fun in my old '93 corolla.
More fun than I do in my TL... makes me kinda miss the light, nimble throw me around attitude the rolla had

[JoshuaWong]

Right on point,

driven several high power cars like R8 V10, 997 Turbo, and C6 Z06. The only times I can really have fun is really 1st gear going WOT.... that's about it sadly because space run out real quick. Really have to go out and find a empty stretch of mountain road outside the city to freely enjoy it.

Disclaimer: I guess you can sort of enjoy these kind of cars on the road, but it depends how big of an ass and how much of risk you are willing to take. From my experience, the older you get, the less worth it it becomes. But then again some of the wildest people I've ran into on the road were really old gentleman lol

[mb_]

Got an honorable mention... :alonehappy: :fuckyea:

Trade you my MR2 for your GT3 :troll:

[BBMme]

very well said.

[Gucci Mane]

pretty much proves why cars like the ford fiesta st are getting such rave reviews.. you can push the car to its limits in a safe fucking manner and not get arrested. very well said indeed.

[ShanghaiKid]

#firstworldproblems #thestruggleisreal

http://evangelicaloutpost.com/images/firstworldproblemsgirl.jpg


I'll give taking on ownership of the GT3 a go :concentrate:

[Lomac]

inb4 Marco saying 996 c4s is best Porsche ever.

[punkwax]

best Porsche ever
http://www.redclaysoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Porsche-Carrera-Whale-Tail-Orange-Red-Clay-Soul.jpg

[TouringTeg]

Great post. From the title I thought this was going to be about how you have to worry about scratches, parking lot dings, and theft with a more expensive car.

I've had a couple sport bikes as well and the tickets that come along with it. Now that I am a bit older I enjoy a spirited drive in my 993 at lower speeds. It provides fantastic feedback and sensation of speed that is hard to put into words. Simply a joy to drive. I believe the driving experience is one of the reasons for the run up in air cooled Porsches.

The good news is your GT3 will not depreciate at this stage. It is more likely it will appreciate over time if you decide to keep it.

[CCA-Dave]

...and this is why I've fallen so deeply in love with classic cars. You think small brakes and tires on a honda are exciting? Try torsion beam and 165mm wide tires! Of course, that desire to have better and better handling means eventually you modify to things like "super wide" 205 series tires and crazy suspension setups...but still the point stands.

More fun to drive on a daily basis then any modern car.

-Dave

[ilvtofu]

pretty much proves why cars like the ford fiesta st are getting such rave reviews.. you can push the car to its limits in a safe fucking manner and not get arrested. very well said indeed.

haha Jason PM'ed me that he was researching about the Fiesta back in May, 2 months later there's a GT3 on his doorstep #firstworldproblems

Surprised no one has posted this
The Mercedes C63 AMG Experiment - /CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube

[tofu1413]

Man, I can't compare to the cars you have owned to the stuff I've owned... :okay:


But having said that, I found myself having more fun with a crappier car. Screeching tires, faded brakes, all that body roll and no traction... it makes no sense at all, yet I have a huge grin on my face bombing around town in a POS.

Hell, Im having more fun with my winter beater 323 right now than with the Abarth or the Evo.

I think there's this feel of satisfaction when you rip a POS through the corner..... and pass a less capable idiot in a M4 showing off to his girlfriend. :troll:

[GLOW]

#thestruggleisreal


haha this made my morning, thanks.

[fliptuner]

One of my cars has:

-manual - brakes, steering, choke, transmission, windows, locks
-lap belts
-drum brakes
-no traction aids
-12" wheels

Ripping around Stanley Park = Nurburgring :fullofwin:

Only doing 50km/h :okay:

[GS8]

As I get older, I stop caring about the new cars as they all start looking the same, 'behaving' the same and start losing their soul since the connection with the driver becomes lost.

I own 2 cars that are 11 years apart and it shows in build quality and technology. That said, for pure thrills, I always opt for the older one. It's been cheaper to maintain, modify and live with. No complex parts, no stupid amounts of sensors and no waiting on parts.

I've been tempted to trade my newer one for an older car just because. Pay off the loan, buy something older in cash and no more debts plus owning a vehicle that would be cheaper to mod / maintain like the one I have now.

With sports cars (plus any new car in general) it's almost always an impulse purchase. You want it but do you REALLY need it? I've driven a few sports / luxury cars in the day and always told myself that while the stares I get were nice, it wouldn't be worth the cash flow (unless I could afford it which will never happen).

When I was younger, I was all for having the newest shit but now that I'm older (with bills to pay), I prefer to cherish to older shit. Keep them alive.

EDIT: I just realized that I DO get a lot of stares in my G8 (which are rarer to see on the street than a Porsche) but that whole thing has worn off for me. I don't care if people stare at me.

[teggy604]

not to mention shitty cars hone your driving skills, forces you to be a better driver, unlike newer cars today with all the electronic driving aid.

[tofu1413]

the face we all make when we drive older, outdated stuff.. and having a blast: :lawl: :lawl: :lawl:

[entrax]

"Driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car slow."

[herman]

jasonturbo, this is your future self. If you sell the GT3 you will regret it for the rest of your life.

I’ve had a handful of relatively inexpensive cars, stock and modified, before a friend suggested I try a P-car. I would have loved a ‘7 GT3 (in white as a matter of fact) but the ‘7s are well beyond my means. I then found a ‘6 GT3 that checked most of the boxes.

Re: Simply put, the car is TOO FAST.

- Acceleration: First gear is no fun in any car, second gear winds out to 120km/hr +, so if you feel like wringing the car out, you are playing a very risky game with the Police, and potentially the safety of yourself and others.
- Handling: You can take any turn in the city at 100km/hr+ and you will never even be touching on the capabilities of the chassis/suspension, and you feel this, it all feels very boring at any speed less than ludicrous.
- Braking: You can't legally achieve any speed that will even get these brakes warmed up.


I felt like you. Then I got over it.

Acceleration - switch to the cup car ring and pinion. You’ll lose top speed but you’ll have more fun on the street. After I switched to a 4.0 RP, I went from liking the car to loving it. I drive around with a dumb ass grin - no joke.

Handling - You have PSM. Can it be disabled and improve the driving experience?

Braking - You're bang on.

I’m a Honda guy. I loved my EM1. A buck and change felt fast.

Having lived with a couple P cars the past couple years, I appreciate inexpensive cars more now. Would I appreciate the GT3 less without having driven a Honda for 10 years? Most definitely. Would I say, cheap cars are more fun? I’m not sure…

Even though repair bills make me cry, the GT3 puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. This is why I intend to keep her for a long time.

[BoostedBB6]

I can understand what your getting at for sure.

I have had some very fast and rather expesnive cars (no exotics to speak of that I have owned) and at first they are a blast but they soon outlive there fun. I began to hate going on short drives because the brakes would be cold, or the engine did not have enough time to warm up, of that heavy clutch....god forbid I park it somewhere and it gets damaged.

I still have fun cars, but they changed a lot. I would like to get something small and fun to throw around the track like a Super7 or similar. Underpower, for me, has seemed to be more fun in the long run....but there are times I miss that 750whp monster :(

[apl_lb]

...no shit you're not going to enjoy a GT3 on the street

[white rocket]

Love the DC2R was your fav car from your list. Love that you daily a GD STi. Totally feel you of the "car is too fast" tip. eg: a 997 turbo came back off lease so I decided to drive it for a week or so. Car was amazeballs and was everything I thought it would be and more. Once I got a bit more comfortable with the car I noticed how much trouble I could get into just going to pass someone. The power is insane and things can get out of control quickly. Power becomes addictive and there isn't a safe place to enjoy all that power. I soon grew annoyed that I couldn't drive it to it's full potential and barely got to enjoy 30% of it on the street.

I will own a 997 turbo one day as it is a bucket list car but since it will be a garage queen/track car I'll be using it in the proper setting to enjoy what it is is capable in a safe environment.

I wouldn't ditch the car but just go buy something else and store that bitch. It may be very hard to find a replacement down the road if you sell now.

[Iron Chef]

There are some people who always think the grass is greener on the other side , and it's those people who never find fulfilment or satisfaction in life. The endless search for something that isn't there.

[Manic!]

http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/i+_6534cb70b524e27a78c3727eb4f42acc.jpg

When revving the crap out of my Civic and the exhaust is screaming I feel like I am flying but I'm just doing 50. In the R8 50 in nothing The problem is you live in Van a terrible place for driving. On the Island there are tons of open highways (top speed 120 on one part) and lots of little roads in the middle of nowhere. To enjoy a car like that you need to get out of the big city.

[multicartual]

Discuss, has anyone else experienced the same feelings? Cars that perform too well to be enjoyed on the street???




Widebody T88 Supra with steamroller 345 drag radials = sucked everywhere but the highway


Stock 5.0 swapped into an E36 with 3.91 gears and only 225/45/17 tires= SO MUCH FUN AROUND TOWN!!!

[LP700-4]

A "shittier" car is also better in the way you don't always have to worry about it in the back of your head. Get home, park it out front who needs to put it in the garage anyways. Go to shopping mall park closest to mall instead of back of the lot pissing off your passengers. Don't have to keep worrying someone is going to door ding you. Wash it once a month instead of twice a week. Drive anywhere not worrying about mileage affecting your depreciation.

I want a shitter car now thanks.

[jasonturbo]

Lots of interesting perspectives in this thread!

Though not 100% certain at this point, I will probably end up selling it. I doubt the 997 GT3 base will be a huge collector car, unique colour 997 GT3 RS on the other hand has already established a collector appeal. I will say the cup car 4.0 rear end would absolutely find its way into the GT3 if I do decide to keep it.

One side note, and this should really get the "WTF's" going, I am also looking at a 991 GT3 made to order w/ Euro delivery for that "once in a lifetime" experience. I would be expecting to sell the car after getting it back to America or hoarding it away as I will specifically equip the car to appeal to potential collectors… this however is looking less and less likely everyday.

I did consider the idea of moving into something slower and more collectible such as the 964 RS America, but then why do I want a collector car? Will just end up with a whole new set of problems whenever I drive it; fear of accidents, fear of door dings, etc.

Likely replacements for the GT3 include;
- ITR
- S2k
- EK9 (Likely a built LHD EK hatch)
- E9X M3 (Would love to hear some feedback from the E9X M3 guys given the scope of this thread)

Whatever it is, it will be very carefully selected and/or built :)

Rich people can keep their rich people toys, I'm trailer trash, why fight my natural urges to like more affordable vehicles?

I think the general point of this thread is to really drive home the idea that you can spend 1/10th the money on a car and still have just as much, or possible even more fun than the car that costs sooooo much more.

[jasonturbo]

A "shittier" car is also better in the way you don't always have to worry about it in the back of your head. Get home, park it out front who needs to put it in the garage anyways. Go to shopping mall park closest to mall instead of back of the lot pissing off your passengers. Don't have to keep worrying someone is going to door ding you. Wash it once a month instead of twice a week. Drive anywhere not worrying about mileage affecting your depreciation.

I want a shitter car now thanks.

This is why I like my GD STI so much, I can park it in a flood plane during monsoon season and not give two shits what happens. :fullofwin:

[bumsuck]

Have you considered a base Cayman? I mean a base Cayman with a M/T, Sports seats, 19" wheels, and some other bits and bobs.

[belaud]

I still like my very stock AP1 S2000 way more than my STI on the streets :pokerface:

I too hate how the GV/GR STI feels from factory, I made it raw by throwing money at it :lol. Even then, it does not offer the same "feel" as the s2000, the pedal position...the gear box.... the seating position...

On the track though, STI is more fun

(The only porsche I will ever consider is a late 930 & 964, the rest of them can get fucked)

[dared3vil0]

Anyone know if WS6TA is around? Would love for him to chime in his opinion...


On another note, this thread really makes me want another 8th gen Civic Si LOL.

[Shark Tank]

If you don't want the GT3 anymore I gladly take it off your hands :accepted:

Dead Serious!

[Momo251212]

If you don't want the GT3 anymore I gladly take it off your hands :accepted:

Dead Serious!

Noooo. i want it too :p

wanna sell the gt3 to me? I will go and have a date with it.

[ae101]

If you don't want the GT3 anymore I gladly take it off your hands :accepted:

Dead Serious!

can u afford it bro :suspicious:

[westopher]

Wait, does this mean my car is crappy?:tears:

[Mr.Stubbz]

at first, when i saw this thread, i was screaming "WHAT?!" in my head *cus doing that out loud at 2am just makes me look like a crazy person* :pokerface:

but then as i read on, i came to an understanding to your thoughts and feelings about the matter and remembered that, while i dont have experience driving fast cars or even a large variety of "slow" cars on the public roads, i do get the joy of driving a car that isnt meant to be driven in such a manner as opposed to a car that is WAAAY too capable and it feels like theres not even a point in owning a car with such capabilities.

as much as i do lust after a p-car or any batshit crazy super/sports car *i swear im not sharktank :badpokerface: the ideal type of car to own personally, is just a moderately powered, light weight, super analog (im talking like, no power steering, wind up windows, no electronic safety aids and all that other useless modern crap) vehicle that i can drive 365 days of the year without having to worry about it 24/7 cus in the end, that is the whole point in having a car, to be able to drive it and enjoy it as much as you can.

if you want to just visually enjoy something in private and is too worried about taking it out in public wondering what could happen, just buy a frigging piece of art that has no other purpose or by an alfa 8c :troll:

[SkunkWorks]

Before you sell your GT3, would you like to trade cars for a week? You can have the 180 HP aircooled Pcar goodness ;)

[Rich Sandor]

I think the general point of this thread is to really drive home the idea that you can spend 1/10th the money on a car and still have just as much, or possible even more fun than the car that costs sooooo much more.

I really think it depends on the person.

I autox/track regularly and I've spent enough time on track to drive like a granny on the street regardless of what I'm driving. I just have no interest in being stupid on the road, even at low speeds.

That said, slow cars on the race track don't do it for me anymore. I've driven past cars around tracks at 10/10s and literally felt totally comfortable ready to crack open a novel or start playing candy crush because the car just was not challenging to drive fast. My race car is at the point where it does things so much faster than I am used to in previous cars and gets MUCH higher speeds in places that where straight or kinks now require BALLS to stay flat. I could never go back from that.

A GT3 around ANY track, (even Mission) would do it for me. I would suffer daily driving it for the odd track day.

Now, SPEC racing with a group of IDENTICAL slower cars can INCREDIBLY entertaining for totally different reasons, however I would not be enjoying myself if I was the only car in my class - there has to be comparable competition.

[JoshuaWong]

A lot of people go for GT3 after their E9X M3, including several of my friends. So if you decide to go down from a GT3, the E9X M3 or the F8X M3/4 seems like the logical choice. Basically you trade off performance for practicality, mind you I think you still get 911 C2 level of performance. They did name the E90 M3 the greatest all rounder car ever couple years back. I still think its relevant today.

My uncle planned to get a GT3 but then he didn't really want to keep an extra car sitting around collecting dust, so he went for the F80 M3. Personally I would sucker up and just drive the GT3, better than taking the bus right? Stop complaining! BUT, like my uncle said, you can easily live with an M3 for track/daily duties whereas a GT3 sadly won't... mind you hes around 40, so I wonder how bad is it to live with everyday for a 25 year old. You have the 997.1 non RS right? I think that's the one I would go for if my finances work out... I don't mind if you want to swap cars for a couple days! hahaha

Lots of interesting perspectives in this thread!

Though not 100% certain at this point, I will probably end up selling it. I doubt the 997 GT3 base will be a huge collector car, unique colour 997 GT3 RS on the other hand has already established a collector appeal. I will say the cup car 4.0 rear end would absolutely find its way into the GT3 if I do decide to keep it.

One side note, and this should really get the "WTF's" going, I am also looking at a 991 GT3 made to order w/ Euro delivery for that "once in a lifetime" experience. I would be expecting to sell the car after getting it back to America or hoarding it away as I will specifically equip the car to appeal to potential collectors… this however is looking less and less likely everyday.

I did consider the idea of moving into something slower and more collectible such as the 964 RS America, but then why do I want a collector car? Will just end up with a whole new set of problems whenever I drive it; fear of accidents, fear of door dings, etc.

Likely replacements for the GT3 include;
- ITR
- S2k
- EK9 (Likely a built LHD EK hatch)
- E9X M3 (Would love to hear some feedback from the E9X M3 guys given the scope of this thread)

Whatever it is, it will be very carefully selected and/or built :)

Rich people can keep their rich people toys, I'm trailer trash, why fight my natural urges to like more affordable vehicles?

I think the general point of this thread is to really drive home the idea that you can spend 1/10th the money on a car and still have just as much, or possible even more fun than the car that costs sooooo much more.

[Zulu]

TLDR; OP is better suited by a FWD grocery getter, can't handle a real car.

[westopher]

I think for what Jason's perspective is on the car, the F80 would really be too much as well. That car is RETARDEDLY fast, and we are looking at deep into the 5XX HP area with just a tune. I know people will say my fanboism is showing, but its bordering on supercar levels of performance just like the gt3 with an extra pair of seats, and likely a less responsive feel (I can't say for sure as I haven't driven one but assume a 7 year newer GT car is less raw than a GT3.) I can definitely see where he's coming from, as if you push a gt3 to its limits and lose it, you are going to have a REALLY bad day, as we are talking the types of speeds that kill people before they can find the brake pedal. Its much more sensible for an inexperienced driver to have a more predictable car on the track near the limit. I'm not saying we all need ek's on bicycle tires to go and have fun. There are fine balances and everyones is going to be different. Personally though, I don't need to be pushing my car to be absolutely loving the drive. I can be out for a slow cruise down 16th to UBC and be loving it, or driving it 10/10ths at autocross, or 8/10ths at a track and I love it all. Perhaps thats when you know you found the balance.

*disclaimer* I still want a fucking gt3.

[hud 91gt]

Buy a Cooper S. Great fun on the street. I was pretty close, but I need that RWD feel'in.

[multicartual]

Anyone know if WS6TA is around? Would love for him to chime in his opinion...


On another note, this thread really makes me want another 8th gen Civic Si LOL.


He's not a car guy, just some rich spoiled brown kid showing off

[multicartual]

My S2000 was one of my favorite cars of all time... WITH the supercharger!


Horsepower has become irrelevant, the golden age of cars and street drag-racing is over and society now frowns upon our masculine urges to race our machines illegally


I wish we could go back to the 90's where racing was fun and the technology behind what made for a fast street car was still somewhat of a mystery


Just wait until all of the Hellcats appear with "N" stickers on the roads and witness the sheer douchebaggery as a result

[tofu1413]

Uncle's friend just picked up his 991 GT3 In speed yellow.... :sweetjesus: what a car.

[Lomac]

Just wait until all of the Hellcats appear with "N" stickers on the roads and witness the sheer douchebaggery as a result

That's more something I'd expect to see up here in Kamloops or Kelowna, not down on the coast. Well, not Vancouver or Richmond anyway... :p

[The_AK]

Actually this thread also explains why I always opt for driving a shitty taxi or some sedan in gta 5 rather than supercar :awwyeah: (i'm so playing that tonight)

[richardmozis]

I'm close to getting into an E55 and the massive torque makes it a weapon on the street. This is a great thread and i've had thoughts similar to this driving around in a stock 2008 5-speed civic.

[Z3guy]

I do agree with Jason's opinion about not being able to utilize the capabilities of his gt3 on the street. When I had my 996 gt3 the car was magical on the track (the car is 10x better than my driving abilities). However, I still enjoyed puttering around town in it. The car is a toy, that's it, nothing I would ever run an errand in. The car is loud, rough, noisy, and squeaks like crazy, but that's why I loved it. It made my e60 m5 feel like a 4x4. I have never driven a car with a more robust chassis and steering feel as my 996 gt3. It is 3rd car at best

[Gucci Mane]

Actually this thread also explains why I always opt for driving a shitty taxi or some sedan in gta 5 rather than supercar :awwyeah: (i'm so playing that tonight)

zentorno is best bro.


this thread has me yearning for a corvette even more. it truly does fit all the criteria i need from a car. its comfy, you can drive it around town and it doesn't drive you nuts. really need to experience one with magnetic ride though, the 2012/13 grand sport 3lt is what i want.

[multicartual]

That's more something I'd expect to see up here in Kamloops or Kelowna, not down on the coast. Well, not Vancouver or Richmond anyway... :p


So many 16 year olds have dads who want to be the child's friend and not the father

[multicartual]

zentorno is best bro.


this thread has me yearning for a corvette even more. it truly does fit all the criteria i need from a car. its comfy, you can drive it around town and it doesn't drive you nuts. really need to experience one with magnetic ride though, the 2012/13 grand sport 3lt is what i want.


I drove my old roommate's C5 around a lot. The interior is worse than a 1988 Cavalier.

First gear went to 90ish KPH.

corvette c5 upgraded c6 rims (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/cto/4679233539.html)

Fix exhaust, interior, tail lights and add gears... great car!

[jasonturbo]

I just recently rented a C6 Vette while visiting (Aka terrorizing) Napa Valley CA, the car was brutally disappointing in so many ways.

If only I would have ponied up the extra 250$/day for the F10 M5 :(

Re: GTA5, I just hit 2000 player kills online, that might just be the single greatest achievement of my life to date.

[Gucci Mane]

I drove my old roommate's C5 around a lot. The interior is worse than a 1988 Cavalier.

First gear went to 90ish KPH.

corvette c5 upgraded c6 rims (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/cto/4679233539.html)

Fix exhaust, interior, tail lights and add gears... great car!

C5 interior is quite crappy. C6 's interior isn't the greatest, but it is decent. Considering the amount of performance you get from the car out of the box along with the looks, the "decent" interior kind of ends up being a moot point.

I could swing the cost of that car, but how much other work is it going to require? Not sure if it's worth it..

I just recently rented a C6 Vette while visiting (Aka terrorizing) Napa Valley CA, the car was brutally disappointing in so many ways.
If only I would have ponied up the extra 250$/day for the F10 M5 :(


lol.. i also rented a corvette while i was in califorina during the summer. the one that hertz has is the base 1lt with the automagic, so ya it kind of is shitty.. i actually didnt have any problems with the car though, i took it for long spirited drives and found it quite enjoyable. even drove 5hours from LA to Sacramento in it and was actually quite comfortable. now, my dd is an f150 and the nicest car i've ever owned was an a-spec tl, so i dont quite have the experience with cars as you do. oh and obviously the corvette is going to be disappointing when you've got a gt3 sitting at home...

[dared3vil0]

I could live with a brutal interior for the kind of performance a Corvette has LOL.

[multicartual]

I could swing the cost of that car, but how much other work is it going to require? Not sure if it's worth it..


Engine and tranny are probably solid for another 100k+


Get it inspected and read Corvette forums for problem areas to watch out for!

[GS8]

Fuck you guys and this thread. My car ownership A.D.D. kicked in and now I want something else.

I'm buying a Grand National.

When I have the money :okay:

[underscore]

I really think it depends on the person.

I autox/track regularly and I've spent enough time on track to drive like a granny on the street regardless of what I'm driving. I just have no interest in being stupid on the road, even at low speeds.

That said, slow cars on the race track don't do it for me anymore. I've driven past cars around tracks at 10/10s and literally felt totally comfortable ready to crack open a novel or start playing candy crush because the car just was not challenging to drive fast. My race car is at the point where it does things so much faster than I am used to in previous cars and gets MUCH higher speeds in places that where straight or kinks now require BALLS to stay flat. I could never go back from that.

A GT3 around ANY track, (even Mission) would do it for me. I would suffer daily driving it for the odd track day.

Now, SPEC racing with a group of IDENTICAL slower cars can INCREDIBLY entertaining for totally different reasons, however I would not be enjoying myself if I was the only car in my class - there has to be comparable competition.

Your situation is hardly standard though, most people (and most Porsche owners) will rarely if ever hit the track, and very few people will hit the track enough to get the skills and the balls to properly utilize a GT3. You need to already be a skilled driver to make use of a high end car on a track, or you won't stand a chance of learning enough to be able to push a supercar.

[Shark Tank]

I just recently rented a C6 Vette while visiting

ZR-1

C6 is child plays compared to ZR-1

If you want to go off the board check this out:

Toyota Supra (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/cto/4668148606.html)

[MarkyMark]

This is pretty much the reason I sold my 2013 Audi S4 after 3 months. While nowhere near the Porsche capabilities it was still stupid fast for any streets around here. You could go from 0 - getting your car towed in like 5 seconds flat and it was hard to drive the speed limit without constantly looking at the speedo since going 100 felt like 60. I never had a ticket in my 14 years of driving and within a month of having this car I got my first. After that the honeymoon was pretty much over and I started looking at new vehicles. It just felt pointless driving a car that fast and not being able to use the power it came with.

Beyond that I hated parking it anywhere that didn't have like 3 feet of space on both sides, was super paranoid about it getting dinged and whatnot.

I drive a truck now and honestly haven't missed the car one bit. I cruise close to the speed limit everywhere I go now since going the limit or a little above feels fast enough.

[jasonturbo]

ZR-1

C6 is child plays compared to ZR-1

If you want to go off the board check this out:

Toyota Supra (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/cto/4668148606.html)

C6 is the chassis, the ZR-1 is also a C6 car, just with better go-fast bits.

Oh Shark Tank...

The issue with my rental Vette wasn't the lack of performance, it's how that performance was delivered and how the chassis communicates... and how terrible the overall fit and finish of the car is etc. I honestly can't beleive there are people who run the Vette as a track car, it must take some serious suspension tweaking to make that car feel planted and balanced.

[Z3guy]

Jason, follow up on your question about e90/92/93 M3. Imo, they are the best value performance vehicle when you take performance, resale value, fit and finish, reliability, and styling into account. I have had my E93 Dinan S3R for 6 months now and love the thing for what it is....a four seat sports sedan that I can take my family out for drives in relative comfort. To me, the E92 M3 is best at doing everything well, but nothing really awesome. If you want a stylish peformance car that you can drive everyday (and in winter) with minimal hassles, the M3 is where it is at. However, from a pure driving experience standpoint, it is not even in the league of the GT3. Nothing is as raw as a GT3.

[dared3vil0]

^ Except a GT3 RS. :)

[prolepsis]

What Z3guy said is bang on. E9x M3s are a great all around car--works well if you want one car to do everything relatively well. Many people switch back and forth between M and Porsches. I know many folks see Porsches as more sport, followed by luxury, while M cars are more luxury, followed by sport, and I generally agree with this assessment.

I have a stock E92 M3 and I enjoy driving the car. The shifter is typical BMW meh feeling, and you notice the weight of the car. My other car is an S2000, so there's enough of a contrast when I switch between the two--I enjoy driving each car for their respective strengths and weaknesses. Having said that, I would like a Cayman or 911 as my next car. And yes, on the street, when I'm sitting in rush hour traffic, I do sometimes think about how a non M car would be just as fun and cost less to maintain.

I've driven a C7 Vette on a track and Caymans and 911s (thanks Vegas!) and back to back, you do notice how much more balanced and communicative the Porsches are, regarding chassis, overall feel, etc. The Vette is a good car and the Porsches just feel that much better, IMO.

[multicartual]

Starting to read like a whole bunch of wanking going on here

[jasonturbo]

Starting to read like a whole bunch of wanking going on here

You would know.

#subjectmatterexpert #showmethegenetalia

[Z3guy]

What Z3guy said is bang on. E9x M3s are a great all around car--works well if you want one car to do everything relatively well. Many people switch back and forth between M and Porsches. I know many folks see Porsches as more sport, followed by luxury, while M cars are more luxury, followed by sport, and I generally agree with this assessment.

I have a stock E92 M3 and I enjoy driving the car. The shifter is typical BMW meh feeling, and you notice the weight of the car. My other car is an S2000, so there's enough of a contrast when I switch between the two--I enjoy driving each car for their respective strengths and weaknesses. Having said that, I would like a Cayman or 911 as my next car. And yes, on the street, when I'm sitting in rush hour traffic, I do sometimes think about how a non M car would be just as fun and cost less to maintain.

I've driven a C7 Vette on a track and Caymans and 911s (thanks Vegas!) and back to back, you do notice how much more balanced and communicative the Porsches are, regarding chassis, overall feel, etc. The Vette is a good car and the Porsches just feel that much better, IMO.

There is a reason the previous gen Cayman R are going up in value. I think this is a far more refined and superior car to the 1M. From a pure driving experience (not speed), the cayman R is almost perfect for the professional and novice enthusiast.

[JD¹³]

OP I'm not sure where to start with this so I'm just going to let my mind flow:

First of all, having owned some of the vehicles you have in the past which are of relatively high performance for street application - you're an IDIOT for buying the GT3 (though you have excellent taste) in the first place if all you intended to do with it is cruise around the Lower Mainland. You could not own a worse vehicle in a worse location in Canada barring Toronto.

With a vehicle like that it's all about time and place, and with the laws in BC now even then you can't help but feel extremely nervous when getting on the gas. Not because it's genuinely unsafe for you or anyone else but because the police in BC have nothing better to do than tax road users. I know because I used to ride a 200hp motorcycle that can do 315km/h on the same streets. I had a lot of fun but eventually took it to and kept it on the track. A 100k Porsche is a pretty pricey track day-only toy so that option is out for you of course. However you do have The Ridge at your disposal, make use of it!

What you need to do is get that car out on the open road where you can enjoy it and that is not in Canada. Take a roadtrip down the coast from Washington to California. Go over the pass into Idaho then shoot south and carve up the mountains past Boise and down into Utah and Nevada. THEN see how much more you enjoy the ownership of a high-end Porsche. Pack light and plan only to stop when you're tired. The people you'll meet and places you'll see will make your face hurt from smiling. I've done those routes, and they are memories my friends and I still talk about to this day despite some of them being more than 10 years ago.

Don't sell your dream car until you've lived the dream first.

[dhari]

I do agree with Jason's opinion about not being able to utilize the capabilities of his gt3 on the street. When I had my 996 gt3 the car was magical on the track (the car is 10x better than my driving abilities). However, I still enjoyed puttering around town in it. The car is a toy, that's it, nothing I would ever run an errand in. The car is loud, rough, noisy, and squeaks like crazy, but that's why I loved it. It made my e60 m5 feel like a 4x4. I have never driven a car with a more robust chassis and steering feel as my 996 gt3. It is 3rd car at best

Serious questions. What do you mean by that exactly? Do you mean that you were not able to push the car to its limits because a)too physically demanding? b) You did not want to push the car to the edge?
I've never driven on a track before so I don't really know how it is to drive. Just wondering what it means when people say that their cars are better than their driving. I know some of it is physical(literally tough to steer and follow the racing line) and some of it is mental(scared to push it).

[westopher]

OP I'm not sure where to start with this so I'm just going to let my mind flow:

First of all, having owned some of the vehicles you have in the past which are of relatively high performance for street application - you're an IDIOT for buying the GT3 (though you have excellent taste) in the first place if all you intended to do with it is cruise around the Lower Mainland. You could not own a worse vehicle in a worse location in Canada barring Toronto.


Jason has the car in Edmonton, and this statement is genuinely ridiculous. There are so many amazing roads to drive around Vancouver, and I'd say its one of the best places if not the best place in Canada to own a nice car. Weather is nice enough to drive it 10 months a year. The ridge, pacific raceways, and ORP are all doable in 2 day road trips. Sea to sky is fun even at reasonable speeds, Duffy lake loop, Cypress, seymour, and I could go on. Not to mention the roads aren't beat to shit.

[dared3vil0]

OP I'm not sure where to start with this so I'm just going to let my mind flow:

First of all, having owned some of the vehicles you have in the past which are of relatively high performance for street application - you're an IDIOT for buying the GT3 (though you have excellent taste) in the first place if all you intended to do with it is cruise around the Lower Mainland. You could not own a worse vehicle in a worse location in Canada barring Toronto.

With a vehicle like that it's all about time and place, and with the laws in BC now even then you can't help but feel extremely nervous when getting on the gas. Not because it's genuinely unsafe for you or anyone else but because the police in BC have nothing better to do than tax road users. I know because I used to ride a 200hp motorcycle that can do 315km/h on the same streets. I had a lot of fun but eventually took it to and kept it on the track. A 100k Porsche is a pretty pricey track day-only toy so that option is out for you of course. However you do have The Ridge at your disposal, make use of it!

What you need to do is get that car out on the open road where you can enjoy it and that is not in Canada. Take a roadtrip down the coast from Washington to California. Go over the pass into Idaho then shoot south and carve up the mountains past Boise and down into Utah and Nevada. THEN see how much more you enjoy the ownership of a high-end Porsche. Pack light and plan only to stop when you're tired. The people you'll meet and places you'll see will make your face hurt from smiling. I've done those routes, and they are memories my friends and I still talk about to this day despite some of them being more than 10 years ago.

Don't sell your dream car until you've lived the dream first.


Couple things; He lives in Alberta with the GT3, not the lower mainland.

Other thing, if i'm picking up what you're putting down (driving "spiritedly" through the US is better than Canada) Avoid Washington state. From personal experience, they will arrest you at the slightest sniff of enjoying some of their beautiful roads.

[trollguy]

dhari, what he means is that the limits of the car is well beyond what he's capable of.

that's likely the same for all of us on RS save a few..

[dared3vil0]

Jason has the car in Edmonton, and this statement is genuinely ridiculous. There are so many amazing roads to drive around Vancouver, and I'd say its one of the best places if not the best place in Canada to own a nice car. Weather is nice enough to drive it 10 months a year. The ridge, pacific raceways, and ORP are all doable in 2 day road trips. Sea to sky is fun even at reasonable speeds, Duffy lake loop, Cypress, seymour, and I could go on. Not to mention the roads aren't beat to shit.

This x10000

Duffy lake loop is arguably one of the best roads. Period.

(Take lougheed highway out to Hope, then head up the canyon to Cache Creek, then down through lilloet, pemberton, whistler and back to van. Should be 7 hours of driving time.)


Although i don't think ORP is 2 day-able... Long drive down, would not want to drive 7+ hours after i got up at 5:00am and had a track day haha.

[Z3guy]

Dhari, it is like this, BMW M3s make you feel like you can drive like Hans Stuck, the car is very well balanced and covers up any mistakes you make (over cooking a corner or getting on the gas too quickly out of a turn). The 996 GT3 only has ABS as a safety net. What I am saying is that my skills as a driver are not refined or developed enough to extract maximum performance from the car. Nothing to do with it being physically demanded, but with how I could extract performance from the car. The 996 GT3 is like playing golf with bladed irons, if you know what you are doing, they work great, if you don't, they work like crap.

[JD¹³]

Jason has the car in Edmonton, and this statement is genuinely ridiculous. There are so many amazing roads to drive around Vancouver, and I'd say its one of the best places if not the best place in Canada to own a nice car. Weather is nice enough to drive it 10 months a year. The ridge, pacific raceways, and ORP are all doable in 2 day road trips. Sea to sky is fun even at reasonable speeds, Duffy lake loop, Cypress, seymour, and I could go on. Not to mention the roads aren't beat to shit.
Yes, the problem is they're over-enforced with draconian laws and cluttered with people who can barely sleep and breathe at the same time let alone drive. If he's in Edmonton he should definitely be heading south with it, I just saw his location as North Van. Vancouver's a great place to have a restored classic or antique collector, not to unleash the capabilities of a modern supercar purely because of the over-enforcement.

[underscore]

Serious questions. What do you mean by that exactly? Do you mean that you were not able to push the car to its limits because a)too physically demanding? b) You did not want to push the car to the edge?
I've never driven on a track before so I don't really know how it is to drive. Just wondering what it means when people say that their cars are better than their driving. I know some of it is physical(literally tough to steer and follow the racing line) and some of it is mental(scared to push it).

It comes down to talent, few people have the experience and skill to push something like a GT3 anywhere near it's limits without crashing it, because that cars limits are a lot higher than say a Civic.

[trollguy]

dont forget- it's also not as forgiving as a civic which makes it even scarier.

[underscore]

^ that too, when you push a Civic past it's limits, you're likely just facing a bit of understeer that's easy to come back from. If you push a GT3 past the limits, the back can easily become the front, all at a much higher speed than the Civic.

[westopher]

Yes, the problem is they're over-enforced with draconian laws and cluttered with people who can barely sleep and breathe at the same time let alone drive. If he's in Edmonton he should definitely be heading south with it, I just saw his location as North Van. Vancouver's a great place to have a restored classic or antique collector, not to unleash the capabilities of a modern supercar purely because of the over-enforcement.
Its the same everywhere in North america, if you are pushing the limits of a GT3 or any other street legal race car on public roads, you are going to be arrested or kill yourself/others.

[ZN6]

Ferrari 458 Italia Crash (Video and photo) - YouTube

Lamborghini Crashes in Chicago Suburbs - YouTube

Embarrassing Ferrari Crash!! (Stupid) 2/3 - YouTube

There are some people who don't even drive 3/10ths of the limits of a super car and still crash.

[N8]

Couple things; He lives in Alberta with the GT3, not the lower mainland.

Other thing, if i'm picking up what you're putting down (driving "spiritedly" through the US is better than Canada) Avoid Washington state. From personal experience, they will arrest you at the slightest sniff of enjoying some of their beautiful roads.

dude... you got arrested for speeding? WTF happened?

[hud 91gt]

^ Post of the week right there (Edit: The videos lol). Hahahaha

[hi-revs]

Ive never driven a super car before, but i can relate that its more fun pushing a less powerful car than babying the drive of a supercar.

When i had my 93 mr2, it was an awesome driving experience. Still love the car to this day. Loved being able to open it up and ripping it around.
Then got a 01 AP1. Great driving experience, but no "go cart" feel to it.
Currently in my 07 Sti. Love the car. But way too much power to open up the throttle. 5 seconds WOT in 3rd gear will likely get myself a ticket.
I can only imagine the power in anything with 400+hp

[Z3guy]

^ I am not track junkie, but that's why I sold my GT3 for an AMV8. Way to easy to get tickets in the GT3. The AMV8 is great car if you want to cruise around at 50-60kms/hr and just enjoy the driving experience. It doesn't hurt hawt chicks in BMWs/Mercs/Audis/RR eye fuk you! lol!

[knight604]

lets trade cars for a month , jasonturbo

[Z3guy]

^ we should for sure!

[knight604]

Yeah , you too z3.

Give me that dinan m3 plox .

[westopher]

Too late he already wants to swap it for the e36.

[freakshow]

RS Car Trading Club??

[Expresso]

Does anyone else feel this thread has runs its course?

I'm waiting for someone to start comparing their mom's camry to something next.

[hchang]

I drive a truck now and honestly haven't missed the car one bit. I cruise close to the speed limit everywhere I go now since going the limit or a little above feels fast enough.

Trucks are the best.

You hazard percept much further, safer by a mile (crash into me with your BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc see who walks out alive).

And best of all it's like you look down on people

[MarkyMark]

Trucks are the best.

You hazard percept much further, safer by a mile (crash into me with your BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc see who walks out alive).

And best of all it's like you look down on people

Yup, and you don't care if someone tailgates you because they disappear once their car gets that close lol

[Shark Tank]

Lets be real Vancouver is just a poor area to own a supercar unless you plan on showing off like on Robson Street. Too many nuthuggers that buy these ballin cars with no intention to drive like car should be drived.

Own these cars in places with less traffic congestion and highways galore and its like as close to autobahn you will get. It would be different if you live in Texas or Saskatchewan just flat land and miles of open stretch roads and bends.

[westopher]

Yeah that would be fuckin sweet to live in saskatchewan.....

[boostfever]

Lets be real Vancouver is just a poor area to own a supercar unless you plan on showing off like on Robson Street. Too many nuthuggers that buy these ballin cars with no intention to drive like car should be drived.

Lets be real, you don't own a sports car or supercar, and you have not really driven one I am assuming. You are also unaware of the decent roads BC offers it seems like. There are loads of decent roads and drives within an hour and less out of Vancouver. Get out of Richmond often...

[Akinari]

That's more something I'd expect to see up here in Kamloops or Kelowna, not down on the coast. Well, not Vancouver or Richmond anyway... :p
I dunno man, I've seen a couple modern muscle cars douchebagging around Richmond with Ns on the back driven by mainlanders wearing their caps backwards. A few GT500s and Charger SRT8s here and there.

Lets be real, you don't own a sports car or supercar, and you have not really driven one I am assuming. You are also unaware of the decent roads BC offers it seems like. There are loads of decent roads and drives within an hour and less out of Vancouver. Get out of Richmond often...

Considering the way he talks, more like Surrey :troll:

[multicartual]

Jason has the car in Edmonton, and this statement is genuinely ridiculous.


Calling him an idiot was wrong, but he speaks the truth about being nervous when on the gas!


40 over and your car is on the hook! Even my 184 rwhp E36 barely allows me to floor it for 3-4 seconds beyond 1st gear before the car is in "street racing" territory. In a GT3 you probably have 1-2 seconds of WOT in 2nd gear before you're in license-losing territory.

[JD¹³]

The 'IDIOT' was in jest, no actual offense intended towards jasonturbo :)

[StanleyR]

Considering the way he talks, more like Surrey :troll:

on an unrelated note. Why does Surrey smell funny? like when I dont' floss my teeth for a month, that's the smell in the air. really disturbing:heckno:

[R. Mutt]

RS Car Trading Club??

OT but every so often I wonder if others would be interested in something like this. Definitly only people who respect other people's property.

My thoughts are not a whole month but a long weekend or something. There are several cars I'd love to see what it feels like to drive/own for a day or two. I think it could work as long as there is a written agreement between the two parties as to what is/isn't allowed and what each party is liable for with respect to damage or the worst case scenario. For example, I'd put a "No launching, Motorsport use or driving in Richmond" clause.

I'd only be willing to do it with adults who outright own their car to begin with and you know they're not going to go speeding around town/S2S etc. Basically treat it like you are literally baby sitting someone else's 1st born.

Sure their are many complications that always make me say Nahh...but it still comes to mind every now and again.

[MikeHB]

A couple years ago I had a 88 Camry Wagon with electronic seat belts and all! (Some of you may know what I'm talking about) 366xxx km and still running strong.
Strong enough to do this :fuckyea:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128435019@N02/15441051216/

I really hope this video link works!

Quick edit: +1 for shitty cars being awesome!

[dared3vil0]

OT but every so often I wonder if others would be interested in something like this. Definitly only people who respect other people's property.

My thoughts are not a whole month but a long weekend or something. There are several cars I'd love to see what it feels like to drive/own for a day or two. I think it could work as long as there is a written agreement between the two parties as to what is/isn't allowed and what each party is liable for with respect to damage or the worst case scenario. For example, I'd put a "No launching, Motorsport use or driving in Richmond" clause.

I'd only be willing to do it with adults who outright own their car to begin with and you know they're not going to go speeding around town/S2S etc. Basically treat it like you are literally baby sitting someone else's 1st born.

Sure their are many complications that always make me say Nahh...but it still comes to mind every now and again.


Would be incredible until you get the one jackass who spends the entire week with your car WOT from a cold start and doing 200 down the sea to sky, all while drunk.

It would be inevitable SOMETHING bad would happen...

[freakshow]

OT but every so often I wonder if others would be interested in something like this. Definitly only people who respect other people's property.

My thoughts are not a whole month but a long weekend or something. There are several cars I'd love to see what it feels like to drive/own for a day or two. I think it could work as long as there is a written agreement between the two parties as to what is/isn't allowed and what each party is liable for with respect to damage or the worst case scenario. For example, I'd put a "No launching, Motorsport use or driving in Richmond" clause.

I'd only be willing to do it with adults who outright own their car to begin with and you know they're not going to go speeding around town/S2S etc. Basically treat it like you are literally baby sitting someone else's 1st born.

Sure their are many complications that always make me say Nahh...but it still comes to mind every now and again.

It's definitely a long shot, but you could always try to put something together!
Criteria would be a problem.. would probably have to have a referral from 3 existing members to join or something like that..

[jasonturbo]

This thread is def stepping into the realm of retardation, no doubt about that lol.

Comments about BC being a shitty place to drive… ughh so wrong, it's barely policed compared to other parts of the US and Canada. Edmonton is easily the most policed city for traffic violations I have ever experienced, add to that the abundance of photo radar and red light/speed camera's… it's terrible. BC has beautiful roads and to get the cops attention you really need to be driving like a complete idiot or have terrible luck.

Comments about being a pussy for not being able to drive the GT3 hard or that it's obviously only well tailored to a race track.. well… tell that to Paul Walker who was killed on the street in a CGT by a professional race car driver.

Shark Tank… you need a reality check.

JD13, you hurt my feeling :(

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f0/f0f2e7fb7a7788a426d4076fe4e75cc84d877cb7f2dcf29304 52b74c650ddbd7.jpg

Edit: This thread has had a significant positive impact on my thanks/fail ratio with the exception of slowguy who failed my original post. Slowguy; sleep with one eye open brah, fails are srs business in these parts.

[bcrdukes]

It's definitely a long shot, but you could always try to put something together!
Criteria would be a problem.. would probably have to have a referral from 3 existing members to join or something like that..

Hey freakshow, I most certainly feel that trading you my 2014 Toyota Corolla S is only fair for a weekend in your NSX. :whistle:

[westopher]

I'll trade you cars for a day dukes. Seriously though. I just want to see you reminisce about your e36 and cry though.

[bcrdukes]

On a more serious note - All you little bitches need to shut the fuck up and just drive your cars. Who cares if it has 1200hp or 90hp? Shut up, start that car up and go get your stupid groceries from Whole Foods or Superstore and drive your mom to the doctor. Cars are meant to be driven, smashed up and then rebuilt and/or sold to the next chump who had dreamed about owning what you just destroyed.

What's worse? Taking the bus, riding a fixie in the rain or having a GT3 365 days a year? I drive my piece of shit Corolla day in and day out, I ride my bike more than it's been driven. God damn, you people make me sick.

[yray]

^Haters Gonna Hate.mov - YouTube

[jasonturbo]

On a more serious note - All you little bitches need to shut the fuck up and just drive your cars. Who cares if it has 1200hp or 90hp? Shut up, start that car up and go get your stupid groceries from Whole Foods or Superstore and drive your mom to the doctor. Cars are meant to be driven, smashed up and then rebuilt and/or sold to the next chump who had dreamed about owning what you just destroyed.

What's worse? Taking the bus, riding a fixie in the rain or having a GT3 365 days a year? I drive my piece of shit Corolla day in and day out, I ride my bike more than it's been driven. God damn, you people make me sick.

I don't expect you to understand, my issues are far to basic in comparison to the complex hipster problems you face on the reg.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Hipsters - YouTube

[bcrdukes]

haha you got me there jasonturbo :hotbaby:

Corollas FTW! :concentrate:

[knight604]

Hipsterproblems ask dukes

[duy-]

just curious though, what is your purpose with all these cars? are they all just daily point A - B fun or autox / drift / track / rally / time attack / race? you have a neat little review under each car which is really cool for someone who's in the market for any of them for daily, but no reviews of how they did at the track after mods vs stock and so on

[jasonturbo]

just curious though, what is your purpose with all these cars? are they all just daily point A - B fun or autox / drift / track / rally / time attack / race? you have a neat little review under each car which is really cool for someone who's in the market for any of them for daily, but no reviews of how they did at the track after mods vs stock and so on

I use them solely for hooning, pure, unadulterated hooning.

[duy-]

sounds like you just picked up a car for the wrong purpose then, not a big deal. i wore jeans and dress shoes to do the grouse grind once... didnt enjoy it.

for "hooning" anything RWD is awesome lol, off the top of my head
ae86
s13
s14
mustang fox body
cressida
supra
etc...
but im biased to having fun. at the stock form all those cars are way more fun because their handling limit is so low, like someone already stated... its more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. try some of the cars youve owned on the track at least once, it'll really make you appreciate them. otherwise it seems like you get caught up in hype because of car reviews and fall into the typical spiral.
1. buy car
2. more loar
3. more parts
4. take pictures
5. fun....??????
6. sell car

[SkunkWorks]

Hey westopher, I'll trade cars with you for a day. Srs. Always wanted an E36 M3 and I know you like them aircools...

[tofu1413]

the "lets trade our rides for a day thread"

[JoshuaWong]

I'll trade you cars for a day dukes. Seriously though. I just want to see you reminisce about your e36 and cry though.

RS Car trade club? We could all swap and go for a cruise together lol, I know a bunch of mainlanders who swap exotics n sports car all the time. Pretty fun, almost as good as girl swapping :troll:

[Marshall Placid]

Not to mention the roads [in Vancouver] aren't beat to shit.

True.

In Calgary for example, POT HOLES, and this is in the Downtown core and around Downtown.

I think the winter temperatures and snow in Central and Eastern Canada really puts a toll on the roads.

But, Vancouver, it is nice weather for the majority of the months, so the roads are much better.

[westopher]

Hey westopher, I'll trade cars with you for a day. Srs. Always wanted an E36 M3 and I know you like them aircools...
If your serious name a day and lets do it! We can take the cars up cypress, swap out and get some photos in the process.:toot:

[Stealthy]

Lets be real, you don't own a car, and you have not really driven one I am assuming. You are also unaware of the decent roads BC offers it seems like. There are loads of decent roads and drives within an hour and less out of Vancouver. Get out of Richmond often...

Fixed

[knight604]

wtf west , i dont get an invite.

fkuguy

[westopher]

Lol someone linked this thread to TCL to presumably have a bunch of bitter 35 year olds talk about how either "jasonturbo isnt a real car enthusiast because he doesn't like gt3s" or "Jason is too much of a pussy to drive a gt3" or how their leased 2015 civic is "more geared to car enthusiasts than a gt3"

[westopher]

wtf west , i dont get an invite.

fkuguyI know you already cancelled your insurance.:smug:

[knight604]

it is the thought that counts...

[westopher]

You are right. Now I feel bad.:okay:

[knight604]

DONT CAUSE WE'RE OVER.

CIRCLE JERK

[jpark]

Drove a co workers friends 997 turbo couple days ago and had the chance to go WOT. All i could say is I would definitely lose my license if i had that car.

[jakers]

On a more serious note - All you little bitches need to shut the fuck up and just drive your cars. Who cares if it has 1200hp or 90hp? Shut up, start that car up and go get your stupid groceries from Whole Foods or Superstore and drive your mom to the doctor. Cars are meant to be driven, smashed up and then rebuilt and/or sold to the next chump who had dreamed about owning what you just destroyed.

What's worse? Taking the bus, riding a fixie in the rain or having a GT3 365 days a year? I drive my piece of shit Corolla day in and day out, I ride my bike more than it's been driven. God damn, you people make me sick.

Ok bcr. That's an interesting layout you have on your Corolla.

http://i.imgur.com/o8nEEhy.jpg

[Marshall Placid]

Here are my two cents:
I had a 2007 RX8 from 2006 to 2012.

It was one of the most fun cars to drive.

I think... 230hp (I forgot) with cold air intake option.

It was extremely low (stock suspension), and even small bumps were felt strongly.

It was thrilling to drive.
-----------------------
Fast forward to the RS5 and it was definitely much faster and it's a smoother ride in general with more gadgetry to aid in driving (which can be turned off, but I don't).

It's height is much taller than the RX-8.

It's roomier too with a bigger trunk.

Here was the problem:
During the first few months, I didn't like the RS5.

Believe or not, the power band in the low end RPM-wise was very "meh".

It's also a heavy car, much heavier than the RX8.

Then, I tweaked the settings, actually read the instruction's manual, read audizine forums, and bam, it turned into a everyday fun car to drive, very smooth/not harsh, much more fun than the RX-8 with a lot more power... and this is everyday daily commuting! Not just the weekends.

Both the RX-8 and the RS5 have their own pros and cons, and the same thing, I think, applies to Jasonturbo's myriad of cars.

--------------

I think he only had the GT3 for a few months.

So, Jason, maybe... try it for a few more months?

--------------------------------

And no, not 1 single ticket yet on the RS5.

I think it is just knowing your roads and where and when to drive "fun" and when to slow down and relax.

The Sea-to-sky highway drives are always memorable, along with Seattle drives and Victoria drives (still have to try the Okanagan drives).

I have had only 2 tickets, and they were on my Honda CRV back in the days and my Q5 several years ago.



The RX8 had more feel, requires more attention, and the RS5 had less "feel" and needed less attention but had much more power.


Give and take.

Jasonturbo: Good luck on your next choice.

[Shark Tank]

The epicness of Porsche GT3 summed up in a 1 video

GT3 Test Drive Part 1 - YouTube

[multicartual]

I wish I had learned driving slow cars fast was more fun than fast cars slow before I blew 50k+ on the Supra and then having some chinese guy crash it

[trollguy]

at least you learned your lesson.. dont let chinese guys drive cars

[bcrdukes]

at least you learned your lesson.. dont let chinese guys drive cars

:whistle:

[JoshuaWong]

at least you learned your lesson.. dont let chinese guys drive cars

no wonder the mainlanders share cars like its nothing, its bound to get crashed either way :troll:

[Z3guy]

at least you learned your lesson.. dont let chinese guys drive cars

slowguy, if you are going to make "funny" comments, at least try to be witty and entertaining......

[white rocket]

I found his comment quite hilarious but hey, I'm white; so I guess that makes me a racist POS. lol! j/k, but not really.

jasonturbo: cool your jets before you sell. Take the winter months to reflect and digest the info in this thread and you own feelings about it. Hoon around in the STI and make a decision in the spring. At least if you decide to sell it will be perfect timing to achieve top dollar for the car.

[Z3guy]

^ White rocket, you didn't have to tell me you were white, because no asians live in Ladner! lol!

[smoothie.]

All I read was, "I'm retarded in the literal sense because this cars too fast"

So now I want a GT3

[smoothie.]

You also called my car a piece of shit numerous times.


Jerk.

[trollguy]

I found his comment quite hilarious but hey, I'm white; so I guess that makes me a racist POS. lol! j/k, but not really.

jasonturbo: cool your jets before you sell. Take the winter months to reflect and digest the info in this thread and you own feelings about it. Hoon around in the STI and make a decision in the spring. At least if you decide to sell it will be perfect timing to achieve top dollar for the car.

wtf. i thought your name was white rocket because you had an CW ITR.. not because you're white............... :suspicious::suspicious:

[TouringTeg]

Brb looking up hooning on urban dictionary

#oldguy

[white rocket]

you are correct on the user name association but I just happen to be a white dude. Lots of Asian influence while growing up in Richmond though. Probably why I gravitated towards the JDM stuff early on. I had a Famicon while friends had the NES. The list goes on.

back on topic, jasonturbo: keep dat Pcar for the winter y0! no hasty decisions.

[Z3guy]

all pre 991 GT3/RS porsches are like Macallan 18yr or older single malt scotch, the longer you hold onto it, the more they will increase in value.

2yrs ago on Rennlist, before the craziness started on manual Porsche GT cars, you could have picked up a low mileage (under 20K miles) non tracked 2007 GT3 for low to mid 70s USD.

[white rocket]

^^well said. I'll add that my searching for a 2007-2009 997 Turbo has yielded increasing asking prices as those were the only years that offered a manual transmission. It's a shame that I can't pull the trigger today. In a year or two when I'm ready will cost me $10,000 easily. Fuck.

This would lead me to believe that jasonturbo's GT3 will always be worth what he paid and likely go up in value even if it just sits. More reason to not sell it even though it doesn't work for his life right now. One day it will, and it'll be worth a whole heck of a lot more.

[Z3guy]

^ you are totally right, I was looking at 07-08 997 Turbos as well 2yrs ago and they were going for high 70s low 80s, now good luck trying to find one for under $90K. The best bang for your buck right now are 04/05 996 Turbos...hard to find a better performance car for under $50K

[Manic!]

Vancouver sucks for driving. One way roads bike lanes and crazy traffic. Taking 15 minutes to go 200 meters is crazy. Also having drive for a hour to find a good driving road is nuts.

This is a road 5 minutes from my house. A minute before the first video starts I could have made a right and been on the highway to Tofino a road that has a lot of narrow parts and turns or Campbell River a road with lots of long straights and a top speed of 120KM.

Jingle Pot road Nanaimo B.C. driving North to South. - YouTube

Jingle Pot road Nanaimo B.C. driving South to North. - YouTube

Want good driving roads come to the Island. Day trip car swap? There is also a track with a road course being built here.

[white rocket]

The moral here is, don't sell that Pcar as it will appreciate over time. Buy a beater or another fun car to hoon around in and enjoy life. When you are ready to enjoy that Pcar that has been stored away it'll be worth more and you will enjoy it just the same.

[underscore]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there are more stable investments with higher return rates to be made with 100k than sitting on a modern Porsche and hoping it goes up.

[bumsuck]

That's why you get a 993 Turbo because of dat air-cooled craze

[knight604]

Moral of the story is buy a gt3 and the end.

[jk6221]

Really interesting post and I really wish there were more people like you. Would it be bad if I said it is almost embarrassing as a Chinese person that half of the $100k cars that are driving by young PRCs just as a status symbols and will probably never take their cars to a track? Because that's something I see a lot.

Might be off topic, but I was at YMCA last weekend and saw an Asian women driving out of the parking lot in a Ford Raptor. I would be surprised if she has ever taken that car off-road. Then again, how many Raptors, Range Rovers, etc are ever taken off-road?

[Nomomo]

Good chance shes into rednecks
Really interesting post and I really wish there were more people like you. Would it be bad if I said it is almost embarrassing as a Chinese person that half of the $100k cars that are driving by young PRCs just as a status symbols and will probably never take their cars to a track? Because that's something I see a lot.

Might be off topic, but I was at YMCA last weekend and saw an Asian women driving out of the parking lot in a Ford Raptor. I would be surprised if she has ever taken that car off-road. Then again, how many Raptors, Range Rovers, etc are ever taken off-road?

[Z3guy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there are more stable investments with higher return rates to be made with 100k than sitting on a modern Porsche and hoping it goes up.

You are right, but what are you going to do with your blue chip stocks? Jerk off to them? Lol! If you are going to drop $100k on a toy, I assume you are smart enough to manage your finances responsibly

[TouringTeg]

997 turbo are still depreciating. A few deals on Rennlist. I'd like to drive one

07 turbo 6spd yellow 41800k miles, $70k USD
FS: 2007 997.1 Turbo Speed Yellow PCCB - Rennlist Discussion Forums (http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/836887-fs-2007-997-1-turbo-speed-yellow-pccb.html)

09 turbo black 42000k miles $70k USD
997.1 Turbo for Sale - Rennlist Discussion Forums (http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/836875-997-1-turbo-for-sale.html)

07 turbo black 76k miles $55k USD track beast!
997 turbo - Rennlist Discussion Forums (http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/837263-997-turbo.html)

http://rennlist.com/forums/attachments/vehicle-marketplace/875019d1412483668-997-turbo-img_3113.jpg

[underscore]

You are right, but what are you going to do with your blue chip stocks? Jerk off to them? Lol! If you are going to drop $100k on a toy, I assume you are smart enough to manage your finances responsibly

You'd be surprised at just how horrible people can be with money, I've met people making 6 figures a year that don't have any assets. If he enjoys driving the car then sure, keep it, but if your sole purpose for keeping it is as an "investment" well...

[Z3guy]

997 turbo are still depreciating. A few deals on Rennlist. I'd like to drive one

07 turbo 6spd yellow 41800k miles, $70k USD
FS: 2007 997.1 Turbo Speed Yellow PCCB - Rennlist Discussion Forums (http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/836887-fs-2007-997-1-turbo-speed-yellow-pccb.html)

09 turbo black 42000k miles $70k USD
997.1 Turbo for Sale - Rennlist Discussion Forums (http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/836875-997-1-turbo-for-sale.html)

07 turbo black 76k miles $55k USD track beast!
997 turbo - Rennlist Discussion Forums (http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/837263-997-turbo.html)

http://rennlist.com/forums/attachments/vehicle-marketplace/875019d1412483668-997-turbo-img_3113.jpg

Those are some high mileage cars though. $70k us car is about $85k landed.

[boostfever]

997 turbo are still depreciating. A few deals on Rennlist. I'd like to drive one

You should drive one. Just show up at the Porsche dealer with your aircooled C4S and they would know you mean business. :smug:

I've driven a few. Almost shat my pants once in a manual coupe/chipped ecu/exhaust... :fuckthatshit:

[donjalapeno]

im going to take a shot in the dark and say that you bit more than you can chew. No way in fucks heaven would I sell my gt3 ( if I could truly afford owning it) and buy a dc2r.

Nope not buying this shit at all.

[Z3guy]

pics of my previous GT3

https://imageshack.com/i/59gt31rj


https://imageshack.com/i/jlgt32rj

[Z3guy]

sorry I rarely post pics, here you go

https://imageshack.com/i/59gt31rj

[trollguy]

Gorgeous GT3!

Did you sell it locally? If so, I think I know the current owner who put on a set of E88s!

[Z3guy]

yes I did, the young gentleman lives downtown and tracks the thing a quite a bit. I am glad he put on E88s....one of fav wheels of all time.

[jasonturbo]

im going to take a shot in the dark and say that you bit more than you can chew. No way in fucks heaven would I sell my gt3 ( if I could truly afford owning it) and buy a dc2r.

Nope not buying this shit at all.

I assume this is a hypothetical response? Typically speaking there is very little "always" and "never" in the real world.

I might have found a solution, will be meeting up with a friend this week who has a very low mile NA2 NSX... Last NSX I drove was an NA1 and it felt rough, I'm hoping it was just that specific car :nyan:

[originalhypa]

No matter what has been said, and how many people just don't get it, this has been a brilliant thread JT. Since those draconian speed laws came into effect and the chances of losing your $100k ride have increased, it almost isn't worth having something that can break all traffic laws with a firm stomping of your right foot.

I still have my GD STi with a 20g and top mount AWIC. It's a solid 300whp with instant spool, and is far more fun on a regular basis to drive than any exotic. Plus it has lots of seats. I also have a couple of 67' Chevys that have gobs of torque with a tranny and rear end that is built to get me to 120 kmh quickly. Would it be nice to have a GT35R on the STi and a big block with a t56 in my Beaumont? Sure. Would I get into trouble with those setups? Fuck yeah!

Could this be a sign of us getting older and wiser?
Or is it a change in society where the next generation just doesn't give a five about cars?

Gorgeous GT3!

Did you sell it locally? If so, I think I know the current owner who put on a set of E88s!

It would be cool to see a pic of how she sits now.
:cool:

[kunoman1]

Good chance shes into rednecks

Hell yea I'm an Asian redneck, I fit both categories

I think im in love..

[dhari]

I Spent A Day Driving a Porsche 911 GT3, And It Was Awesome (http://jalopnik.com/i-spent-a-day-driving-a-porsche-911-gt3-and-it-was-awe-1643930570)

LOL

[jpark]

I assume this is a hypothetical response? Typically speaking there is very little "always" and "never" in the real world.

I might have found a solution, will be meeting up with a friend this week who has a very low mile NA2 NSX... Last NSX I drove was an NA1 and it felt rough, I'm hoping it was just that specific car :nyan:

No, he's just being persian

[freakshow]

I assume this is a hypothetical response? Typically speaking there is very little "always" and "never" in the real world.

I might have found a solution, will be meeting up with a friend this week who has a very low mile NA2 NSX... Last NSX I drove was an NA1 and it felt rough, I'm hoping it was just that specific car :nyan:

We could always trade for a day and you can see how an NA1 feels again :p

[westopher]

sorry I rarely post pics, here you go

Part of me is even more attracted to the "uglier" big brother 996 gt3 than the 997. There was a yellow one a saw in kits a couple years ago and I think it must have been straight piped. The owner had massive earplugs in and it sounded like the world was ending. I almost fainted I was so in love with it. I've always been one for the underdogs. I did buy the worst m3 after all.:toot:

[Z3guy]

^ you got good ears Westopher. I know that guy, his car is straight piped.

[Z3guy]

Part of me is even more attracted to the "uglier" big brother 996 gt3 than the 997. There was a yellow one a saw in kits a couple years ago and I think it must have been straight piped. The owner had massive earplugs in and it sounded like the world was ending. I almost fainted I was so in love with it. I've always been one for the underdogs. I did buy the worst m3 after all.:toot:

that is like saying I married the ugliest Miss America contestant. lol!

[trollguy]

yellow 996 GT3.. those are rare. Bobs?

[synchrocone]

Could this be a sign of us getting older and wiser?
Or is it a change in society where the next generation just doesn't give a five about cars?



More of graph/numbers kind of guy to answer your question?

[synchrocone]

I might have found a solution, will be meeting up with a friend this week who has a very low mile NA2 NSX... Last NSX I drove was an NA1 and it felt rough, I'm hoping it was just that specific car :nyan:

A repeat but I too test drove a NA1 years ago and it too didn't feel tight and was fairly rough as well. Too bad we aren't in Japan. Deliver 'old' NSX to factory-->dis-assemble-->inspect to every nut and bolt-->re-assemble.

Another reason why owning a car under 30g's is more sensible? Defensive road rage + expensive/new car = paranoia lol.

[JoshuaWong]

A repeat but I too test drove a NA1 years ago and it too didn't feel tight and was fairly rough as well. Too bad we aren't in Japan. Deliver 'old' NSX to factory-->dis-assemble-->inspect to every nut and bolt-->re-assemble.

Another reason why owning a car under 30g's is more sensible? Defensive road rage + expensive/new car = paranoia lol.

I actually drove 94 NA1 last year, it was as solid and tight if not more than a new BMW. Was absolutely impress with the build quality and how well it aged, the interior looked lame but the moment you sit inside, you knew it's pure business. The car feel structurally really strong.

[JoshuaWong]

I assume this is a hypothetical response? Typically speaking there is very little "always" and "never" in the real world.

I might have found a solution, will be meeting up with a friend this week who has a very low mile NA2 NSX... Last NSX I drove was an NA1 and it felt rough, I'm hoping it was just that specific car :nyan:

I always considered the NA2 NSX-R to be a close cousin of the GT3. I get the same purposeful feeling when I jump into both cars. I had a chance to drive a 94 last year and shortly after my friend bought a GT3 RS 997.2. It was enlightening that both cars were so similar in philosophy of their making. The only difference is the age. One is a benchmark of the 90s and the other one kept evolving with today's technology applied.

It would have been nice to have a a 3rd gen NSX-R, the result would have been devastating.

997 GT3, NA2 NSX, E92 M3... you can't go wrong.

[JD¹³]

Its the same everywhere in North america, if you are pushing the limits of a GT3 or any other street legal race car on public roads, you are going to be arrested or kill yourself/others.
:rukidding: Come on Captain Obvious. Of course. "Pushing the limits" of a rusty 86 Accord on the street will bring the same result. Enjoying a vehicles performance doesn't mean you have to go flat out everywhere you go. Derp.

[jasonturbo]

:rukidding: Come on Captain Obvious. Of course. "Pushing the limits" of a rusty 86 Accord on the street will bring the same result. Enjoying a vehicles performance doesn't mean you have to go flat out everywhere you go. Derp.

I'm not sure he meant pushing the limits to that extent?

Most "performance" road cars are slow enough that you can always abuse second gear under hard cornering on the street and remain within the realm of the living and with your license intact. With something like the GT3, a second gear corner wound out has you going fast enough that you could easily find both your health and license in jeopardy.

Mehhh, at least that's how I see it.

[Expresso]

It sounds like you drive like an asshole on the street...

[BrRsn]

It sounds like you drive like an asshole on the street...

b-b-b-b-but the internet told me going WOT helps keep my engine running good

[jasonturbo]

It sounds like you drive like an asshole on the street...

Don't all rich people drive like assholes? I'm just trying to fit in bro.

[sdubfid]

is your car hibernating or were you racing stoplight to stoplight in dt Calgary 4th street today?

[multicartual]

Fuck a first gen NSX would be a great slow car to drive fast!!!

[jasonturbo]

is your car hibernating or were you racing stoplight to stoplight in dt Calgary 4th street today?

Hibernating.

[GS8]

Don't all rich people drive like assholes? I'm just trying to fit in bro.

Lotta rich muthafuckas driving Gold Corollas

[noclue]

Did you recover from your AMRN bet and rewarded yourself with a GT3?

[trollguy]

Don't all rich people drive like assholes? I'm just trying to fit in bro.

i actually recall seeing a huge dbag in a f430 make a left on a very red...red. it was ridiculous. he was taking his sweet time too.

it was an awesome old man.

[Godzira]

I love my 23 year old Nissan. :(

[spoon.ek9]

:awwyeah:

Jason: why do you think I've owned and loved my EK9 replica all these years? same reasons as you listed in the OP pretty much.

[artmotion]

^ White rocket, you didn't have to tell me you were white, because no asians live in Ladner! lol!

I'm asian and I live in ladner :cool:

[Marco911]

Your problem is that you moved from rice burners into a car that is near the pinnacle of the automotive hierarchy. Your 2nd problem is that you are driving your car in the Lower Mainland which has terrible infrastructure for spirited motoring, slow, idiotic drivers and draconian speed laws.

Your third problem is going to be that when you move down from the 911 back into a rice burner, it's going to feel like a cheap poor excuse of a car.

You don't have to drive a 911 fast to appreciate how well engineered and how superbly tuned the chassis is. There are very few vehicles that have that much tuning that has gone into the chassis to make it feel the way it does. It was also a bad decision to move to a GT3 right off the bat. You have to work your way up the 911 line to truly appreciate the heritage and how different each of the cars are. A simple 997C2S would have already offered a large step up in driving performance and excitement from your previous cars. It will also be far easier to live with. Take it from me, I have owned 4 911s and counting. I've driven all the latest BMWs, Mercedes, and Audis and they are nowhere as developed as the 911.

[The_AK]

^I wouldnt call an M3 a rice burner... :suspicious:

[westopher]

Not to mention Jasons M3 was basically at the same level as an e46 CSL.

[yray]

I Have to Have a Ferrari - Clarkson's Car Years - BBC - YouTube

It's more of like some foig will try to race and cut you off when you just want to head to the local grocery store to buy some groceries. Fuck this city, fuck all the cyclist, who the fuck cares what car I'm driving. I decided to spend my life savings on a car while you could've spent it on hookers, a house, coffee, bikes, on bcrdukes or whatever, doesn't mean you have to be a douche bag and threaten to destroy my car and/or kill me.

[multicartual]

Expensive cars are just for getting pussy and showing off your social status

[dared3vil0]

^ Kind of a generalization...

[boostfever]

Expensive cars are just for getting pussy and showing off your social status

said the person who can't afford one

[jasonturbo]

You're problem is that you moved from rice burners into a car that is near the pinnacle of the automotive hierarchy. Your 2nd problem is that you are driving your car in the Lower Mainland which has terrible infrastructure for spirited motoring, slow, idiotic drivers and draconian speed laws.

Your third problem is going to be that when you move down from the 911 back into a rice burner, it's going to feel like a cheap poor excuse of a car.

You don't have to drive a 911 fast to appreciate how well engineered and how superbly tuned the chassis is. There are very few vehicles that have that much tuning that has gone into the chassis to make it feel the way it does. It was also a bad decision to move to a GT3 right off the bat. You have to work your way up the 911 line to truly appreciate the heritage and how different each of the cars are. A simple 997C2S would have already offered a large step up in driving performance and excitement from your previous cars. It will also be far easier to live with. Take it from me, I have owned 4 911s and counting. I've driven all the latest BMWs, Mercedes, and Audis and they are nowhere as developed as the 911.

A) I'm not in the lower mainland at the moment, and I would argue that Vancouver does not have terrible infrastructure for hooning around.

B) While I will admit that moving back to a "rice burner" might bring about some feelings of regret for most people, my STI doesn't leave me feeling all that terrible... so I'll probably be okay.

C) I do not agree that you can drive a 911 slow and still appreciate the chassis, maybe if you're some PCA fanboy douche who wears Porsche driving gloves when you fill up with gas etc.

D) You sound like a PCA fanboy douche; "It was also a bad decision to move to a GT3 right off the bat. You have to work your way up the 911 line to truly appreciate the heritage and how different each of the cars are."

E) I have driven other Porsches, I would say the C2S/C4S would have fit the bill slightly better for daily amusement BUT, and this is major BUT, it wouldn't be a GT3. For the extra 20-40K for the GT3 you get a car that offers so much more and will hold value much better. GT3 is to the C2S what an Integra Type R is to a GSR.

F) The performance delta between my E46 M3 and a 997 C2S is negligible.

Meh, the point is that you don't need to buy a Porsche or any other expensive car to enjoy driving... it's not a debate about whether or not the GT3 is the right car for me. I think this thread has more value and appeal to people who haven't had the ability to own multiple Porsche's etc.. aka most normal people who may dream of owning a "supercar" but might wind up eventually feeling the same way I do.

[Manic!]

Expensive cars are just for getting pussy and showing off your social status

There actually people out there who enjoy driving. I think they are called car enthusiasts.

[tofu1413]

Maybe Ill just sell you the CRX.... so you can put a B series or even K series in it.



:troll: :lawl: :okay:

[Marco911]

A) I'm not in the lower mainland at the moment, and I would argue that Vancouver does not have terrible infrastructure for hooning around.

Compared to what? The American Interstate system? The autobahn and highway systems in Europe? That's laughable. The lower mainland is clearly under infrastructured with too many left lane hogs and slow drivers making it difficult to sustain >90 mph speeds,.


B) While I will admit that moving back to a "rice burner" might bring about some feelings of regret for most people, my STI doesn't leave me feeling all that terrible... so I'll probably be okay.

The STI is no way comparable to a base 911 much less a GT3. The controls are far too light, the engine/exhaust sound are lacking vs. the flat-6, and after 80 mph, a Porsche will walk away.


C) I do not agree that you can drive a 911 slow and still appreciate the chassis, maybe if you're some PCA fanboy douche who wears Porsche driving gloves when you fill up with gas etc.

That's like saying you can't tell the difference between ultra-high performance tires and all season tires if you don't drive fast. You can certainly feel the firmness of the chassis, and the weight balance through corners and the feel of the road that is transmitted through the seats and steering to your butt and shoulder blades. That requires a tremendous amount of engineering know-how to transmit effectively.


D) You sound like a PCA fanboy douche; "It was also a bad decision to move to a GT3 right off the bat. You have to work your way up the 911 line to truly appreciate the heritage and how different each of the cars are."

And you sound like someone who couldn't keep up with the payments of the GT3 and is trying to rationalize moving back to something more affordable.


E) I have driven other Porsches, I would say the C2S/C4S would have fit the bill slightly better for daily amusement BUT, and this is major BUT, it wouldn't be a GT3. For the extra 20-40K for the GT3 you get a car that offers so much more and will hold value much better. GT3 is to the C2S what an Integra Type R is to a GSR.

So much more, meaning more performance on the track vs. a sacrifice in daily usability and drivability vs. a regular 911. The GT3 is a limited production car for Porsche enthusiasts who want to drive and experience the performance on both a track and the street. A regular 911 is more suitable for 95% of drivers.


F) The performance delta between my E46 M3 and a 997 C2S is negligible.

Perhaps if you just look at 0-60 times, but the performance gap gets larger and larger when you are on the track. The M3 can't corner like a 911 or does not accelerate at higher speeds like a 911 does. Sorry.


Meh, the point is that you don't need to buy a Porsche or any other expensive car to enjoy driving... it's not a debate about whether or not the GT3 is the right car for me. I think this thread has more value and appeal to people who haven't had the ability to own multiple Porsche's etc.. aka most normal people who may dream of owning a "supercar" but might wind up eventually feeling the same way I do.

Supercars are crap to own if its a car you drive every day. Supercars are meant as a 3rd or 4th car, to be taken out when the mood suits you and the conditions are suitable. A regular 911 is a car meant to be driven every day and offers a lot of excitement and the driving experience that an enthusiast cares about. If you have owned/driven one, you notice the flaws in other cars very quickly.

[westopher]

Perhaps if you just look at 0-60 times, but the performance gap gets larger and larger when you are on the track. The M3 can't corner like a 911 or does not accelerate at higher speeds like a 911 does. Sorry.

An e46 M3 CSL put a second faster time at the ring than a 2009 carrera S. Sorry.

[BrRsn]

C) I do not agree that you can drive a 911 slow and still appreciate the chassis, maybe if you're some PCA fanboy douche who wears Porsche driving gloves when you fill up with gas etc.



http://sites.psu.edu/goodsonpassionblog/wp-content/uploads/sites/768/2013/04/friends-porsche.png

:fuckthatshit:

[jasonturbo]

Compared to what? The American Interstate system? The autobahn and highway systems in Europe? That's laughable. The lower mainland is clearly under infrastructured with too many left lane hogs and slow drivers making it difficult to sustain >90 mph speeds,.

Oh boy, again you are missing the point, we have the road systems we have, and in something like an ITR you can have quite a bit of fun with them.


STI is no way comparable to a base 911 much less a GT3. The controls are far too light, the engine/exhaust sound are lacking vs. the flat-6, and after 80 mph, a Porsche will walk away.

Reading comprehension > you, I was not comparing a Porsche to the STI, I was stating that I will probably not suffer regret if I sell the GT3 and retreat to some kind of "rice burner".


like saying you can't tell the difference between ultra-high performance tires and all season tires if you don't drive fast. You can certainly feel the firmness of the chassis, and the weight balance through corners and the feel of the road that is transmitted through the seats and steering to your butt and shoulder blades. That requires a tremendous amount of engineering know-how to transmit effectively.

There is some truth to what you are saying, but I would argue that the chassis of a GT3 probably feels no better than a well sorted ITR does on any reasonable speed on public roads.

you sound like someone who couldn't keep up with the payments of the GT3 and is trying to rationalize moving back to something more affordable.

After taxes, Porsche payment, and my rent... I'm only left with like 20k in disposable income every month. I guess my non existent kids will just have to deal with no Christmas this year.

much more, meaning more performance on the track vs. a sacrifice in daily usability and drivability vs. a regular 911. The GT3 is a limited production car for Porsche enthusiasts who want to drive and experience the performance on both a track and the street. A regular 911 is more suitable for 95% of drivers.

I don't DD the GT3, "usability and drivability" of the GT3 are not an issue, the difficulty in keeping the car on a leash is my issue.

if you just look at 0-60 times, but the performance gap gets larger and larger when you are on the track. The M3 can't corner like a 911 or does not accelerate at higher speeds like a 911 does. Sorry.

Hmmmm plenty of guys off M3forums beating up on carrera's at the track.

are crap to own if its a car you drive every day. Supercars are meant as a 3rd or 4th car, to be taken out when the mood suits you and the conditions are suitable. A regular 911 is a car meant to be driven every day and offers a lot of excitement and the driving experience that an enthusiast cares about. If you have owned/driven one, you notice the flaws in other cars very quickly.

I went to one PCA meeting in Alberta, most of the people were complete cunts and look down on anything that doesn't bear the Stuttgart crest. You would probably fit right in.

[dared3vil0]

After taxes, Porsche payment, and my rent... I'm only left with like 20k in disposable income every month. I guess my non existent kids will just have to deal with no Christmas this year.


:okay:

I feel so poor LOL

[GS8]

And you sound like someone who couldn't keep up with the payments of the GT3 and is trying to rationalize moving back to something more affordable.

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/137983/82297233.jpg

[Z3guy]

Marco is the same guy that hasn't been to a track with his 911 and says he can drive on the street fast enough to appreciate the cars limits Lol!

[westopher]

OT: I finally (think) I saw you driving yesterday down homer st. Car has 4.6 badges on the front fender right?

[Z3guy]

^Yep that's me

[Marco911]

An e46 M3 CSL put a second faster time at the ring than a 2009 carrera S. Sorry.

And if the OP had an M3 CSL, you might have a point.

[dared3vil0]

And if you had half a brain, you might be able to make a logical point...

[Marco911]

Oh boy, again you are missing the point, we have the road systems we have, and in something like an ITR you can have quite a bit of fun with them.

That's what I was saying, the roads around the Lower Mainland suck compared to major American cities or in Europe, where you can actually use the power on the highways.


Reading comprehension > you, I was not comparing a Porsche to the STI, I was stating that I will probably not suffer regret if I sell the GT3 and retreat to some kind of "rice burner".

Whatever helps you get through the day. :)



There is some truth to what you are saying, but I would argue that the chassis of a GT3 probably feels no better than a well sorted ITR does on any reasonable speed on public roads.

So what you're saying is that a car/chassis that has been engineered from the ground up as a RWD sports car is not going to feel any better than a tarted up econo-Honda Civic chassis? That's laughable.

Incidentally here are the specs:
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats) 12,500 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Carrera Type 997: 33,000 Nm/deg
Honda Integra / Civic / Tin-can : Not Listed but it's probably pretty bad which is why they have to rely on upper strut tie bars and other braces to compensate for the quivering spaghetti chassis. Let's not forget that the Integra is FWD and has to steer and accelerate using the same drive wheels.


After taxes, Porsche payment, and my rent... I'm only left with like 20k in disposable income every month. I guess my non existent kids will just have to deal with no Christmas this year.

Yeah I'm sure someone who has over 200K of disposable net income after expenses, still rents...<roll eyes>


I don't DD the GT3, "usability and drivability" of the GT3 are not an issue, the difficulty in keeping the car on a leash is my issue.

Your issue was that you couldn't explore the car's limits on the street, hence your argument that a sporty econobox was more fun. That's an over simplification and nowhere close to reality. That's like saying there's no point having a Rolls Royce when you can get a leather interior on a Toyota Camry.



Hmmmm plenty of guys off M3forums beating up on carrera's at the track.

And plenty of Carrera guys beat M3 guys. When driven by professionals, the Carreras are significantly faster.


I went to one PCA meeting in Alberta, most of the people were complete cunts and look down on anything that doesn't bear the Stuttgart crest. You would probably fit right in.

Probably. You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't change the fact that the cars you mentioned are lesser sports cars in pretty much every way conceivable that does not consider $$/value.

[Marco911]

And if you had half a brain, you might be able to make a logical point...

Non-sequitur arguments are not real arguments, child. If you think I don't make logical points, feel free to come up with a rebuttal.

[Marco911]

Marco is the same guy that hasn't been to a track with his 911 and says he can drive on the street fast enough to appreciate the cars limits Lol!

I have tracked my 911 ;) And yes, you can appreciate the car's limits on the streets, when you drive outside of the confines of the law. Thanks for playing.

[ae101]

after 9 pages later marco had to come in & ruin this thread

[Marco911]

An e46 M3 CSL put a second faster time at the ring than a 2009 carrera S. Sorry.

E90 M3 414hp - 8:05s
997.2 Porsche 911CS 385 hp: - 7:50s

That's a whole 15 seconds faster, on a car with less hp. As I said, they aren't comparable.

[Marco911]

after 9 pages later marco had to come in & ruin this thread

If you mean deflate the illusion that mainstream sporty cars are in the same "fun" league as Porsches, then yes, I'm glad to be the bitter reality pill.

[dared3vil0]

How the fuck does E90 M3 = E46 M3 CSL?!

[ae101]

marco911 = shark tank :suspicious::considered:

ok :ilied:

no :seriously:

[dared3vil0]

If you mean deflate the illusion that mainstream sporty cars are in the same "fun" league as Porsches, then yes, I'm glad to be the bitter reality pill.

Holy generalization, Batman. So what you're saying is a 1999 base automatic boxster is more fun than say, an S2000, E46 M3 etc etc etc?

[ae101]

Holy generalization, Batman. So what you're saying is a 1999 base automatic boxster is more fun than say, an S2000, E46 M3 etc etc etc?

well that depends on whos driving the boxster :ifyouknow:

[westopher]

Its no secret that I want a 911, and its even less of a secret that I own an m3, and love m3s, but if you think an m3 isn't in the same league as a 911 of the same vintage (and of course obvious trim levels like turbos, gt cars excluded) around a track, you just haven't read anything about cars in the last 25 years. I'm not talking a gt3 RS against an e30 m3 here. I'm talking about taking an f80 m3 out against a 991 Carrera and the times, fun, and feel are going to be pretty fucking comparable. Also, both the times cited were by the same professional driver, in the same conditions.