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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
If people (Hongers) lose their identity and culture, then what exactly defines a HK identity and culture? In what ways is it different from a China/Chinese identity and culture?
Are we talking about traditions, such as holidays (CNY), family/social values, etc.?
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A lot of people posting here are CBC and only go to HK once every few years or those who were born in Hong Kong and immigrated to Canada. So that means that you or your parents or your grandparents moved away to find a better life. There are also people who were born in Canada and moved to HK, again to seek a better opportunity or life. No matter what, people will do what's best for their life and will try to enrich themselves.
When the hongers first moved to Canada, they were rude, they were selfish, they didn't speak English, they built high fences and gates to block their houses from their neighbours and they even established their own community (ie Richmond) where at one point you needed to speak cantonese to order food. But Canada is great in that we accept that, we integrated and we were told not to be racist, not to be xenophobic and to welcome globalization and be multicultured.
Hong Kong on the otherhand is one of the most racist and xenopobic places I have ever been. If you are from SE Asia, no matter what you are looked down upon. If you are from mainland, you are looked down upon. If you are from a western country, you are praised. For those who just come to visit for a week or two, you cannot comprehend what it is truly like. HK is run by greed, it always has been and always will be.
Many of the younger generation in HK are retarded. They do not see things from the bigger picture and are just sheep. They complain that the PRC will take away their rights of freedom and their capitalistic ways, yet they are destroying HK themselves, NOT the mainlanders. By adding extra taxes, having limits of milk powder, wanting a tourist tax. This is not the pre 97 HK that was free. It's ironic that hongers don't want to be ruled by the PRC yet they want to implement policies that are similar to the regime, something they are against.
Rents increasing, shortage and increase price of milk powder, and more luxury shops. How stupid are hongers to blame mainlanders when the rent increase is due to the developers limiting supply as well as the government. The shortage and increase price of milk powder is because greedy ass shops are hoarding away and increasing the price for more profit. More luxury shops because the landlords know they can have higher ROI if they rent out to Chow Tai Fok as oppose to a small mom and pop shop. Yes, it's the mainlanders who are shopping here, but its the supply that is controled by the people of HK and the government which is fucking over hk, not the mainlanders.
Remember, everyone just wants to be better off themselves. Those who immigrated to Canada are no different than mainlanders who want to buy nicer things or move to HK.
HK is a shithole with retarded people arguing about rude people when harassing innocent tourist like this is way worse than any mainlander shopping.
Also, I find it funny that retarded news like this makes to rs while one ever mentions about Erwiana Sulistyaningsih or the other abuse cases that the fdh have to endure. Or how retarded HK is for imposing sanctions towards the Philippines over a single bus incident.
A lot of people posting here are CBC and only go to HK once every few years or those who were born in Hong Kong and immigrated to Canada. So that means that you or your parents or your grandparents moved away to find a better life. There are also people who were born in Canada and moved to HK, again to seek a better opportunity or life. No matter what, people will do what's best for their life and will try to enrich themselves.
When the hongers first moved to Canada, they were rude, they were selfish, they didn't speak English, they built high fences and gates to block their houses from their neighbours and they even established their own community (ie Richmond) where at one point you needed to speak cantonese to order food. But Canada is great in that we accept that, we integrated and we were told not to be racist, not to be xenophobic and to welcome globalization and be multicultured.
Hong Kong on the otherhand is one of the most racist and xenopobic places I have ever been. If you are from SE Asia, no matter what you are looked down upon. If you are from mainland, you are looked down upon. If you are from a western country, you are praised. For those who just come to visit for a week or two, you cannot comprehend what it is truly like. HK is run by greed, it always has been and always will be.
Many of the younger generation in HK are retarded. They do not see things from the bigger picture and are just sheep. They complain that the PRC will take away their rights of freedom and their capitalistic ways, yet they are destroying HK themselves, NOT the mainlanders. By adding extra taxes, having limits of milk powder, wanting a tourist tax. This is not the pre 97 HK that was free. It's ironic that hongers don't want to be ruled by the PRC yet they want to implement policies that are similar to the regime, something they are against.
Rents increasing, shortage and increase price of milk powder, and more luxury shops. How stupid are hongers to blame mainlanders when the rent increase is due to the developers limiting supply as well as the government. The shortage and increase price of milk powder is because greedy ass shops are hoarding away and increasing the price for more profit. More luxury shops because the landlords know they can have higher ROI if they rent out to Chow Tai Fok as oppose to a small mom and pop shop. Yes, it's the mainlanders who are shopping here, but its the supply that is controled by the people of HK and the government which is fucking over hk, not the mainlanders.
Remember, everyone just wants to be better off themselves. Those who immigrated to Canada are no different than mainlanders who want to buy nicer things or move to HK.
HK is a shithole with retarded people arguing about rude people when harassing innocent tourist like this is way worse than any mainlander shopping.
Also, I find it funny that retarded news like this makes to rs while one ever mentions about Erwiana Sulistyaningsih or the other abuse cases that the fdh have to endure. Or how retarded HK is for imposing sanctions towards the Philippines over a single bus incident.
Comparing immigration to Canada, even in extreme cases like Richmond where the new immigrants make up 40% or 50% or whatever it is... is not even remotely close to taking your population, and having visitors be 10 TIMES the population. Especially when you consider how crowded the place already is. You just can't make that comparison. Not even a little bit.
If Richmond (or hell, all of Canada if you want) had 10X its population being visited by people who are driving rates up 800%, pissing in the streets, running people over with suitcases, smoking cigarettes everywhere and throwing the trash wherever they feel like it... Do you think the people and government would just stand by and let it happen? I think it would be even worse than what we're seeing here. Imagine if it's in America?
Saying "HK people are retarded" or anything like that is just hateful and you don't have any point to make there. Some people are retarded, some people are not retarded. Generalizing like that is no better than whaever point you're attempting to make on racism.
I agree that there is definitely racism, not just to SE asians but to anyone who isn't han chinese pretty much. But I don't think I have ever seen malicious racism or hatred. Mostly just ignorance and the general thing that ALL people do, in trying to "get over" on each other, and looking for every opportunity to do so. Being a different race is the easiest way of all for people to congregate and find a common group to stick to. In my experience actually, Japanese people are WAY WAY WAY more racist generally than HK or Chinese people. And they can get REALLY malicious with it. When I was there last year, there were plenty of protests similar to the one in the OP here, directly attacking koreans, etc. Every Sunday morning, I would have to put up with this guy who drives around Tokyo with his loudspeaker on his car, spouting out nationalist and racist propaganda all day.
And like I keep saying, there are assholes everywhere, and there are good people everywhere. There are racists everywhere, and non-racists. Focusing on that, directing hatred and vitriol towards it, is not really getting to the point of the issue people are having.
if they don't think it's a problem there, they dont think anything needs fixing.
"acceptable" is relative. what they consider acceptable may be unacceptable to us, and what we consider acceptable may be unacceptable to them.
Yes, acceptable is relative. And in this instance, the "acceptable" behaviour of the mainland tourists are considered unacceptable in Hong Kong. Therefore, to impose or conduct education seminars to elighten the tourists to what is indeed acceptable in Hong Kong doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
Yes, acceptable is relative. And in this instance, the "acceptable" behaviour of the mainland tourists are considered unacceptable in Hong Kong. Therefore, to impose or conduct education seminars to elighten the tourists to what is indeed acceptable in Hong Kong doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
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I've been following the protests and imo (as always it seems) Hongers are acting like bigoted children
Can't stand that you're not allowed in stores or to take pictures whereas mainlanders can? don't hate on the mainlanders hate on the store and their honger owners
Can't stand that mainlanders are buying up all the supply of 'x' product? hate on the honger store owners for not ordering a greater supply cuz they want to drive up prices (its been a long enough issue so that owners can adjust their ordering to meet demand)
Can't stand the manners or lack there of of mainlanders? look in the mirror you guys are far from gracious and polite, far from it.
Don't hurl bigoted remarks at mainlanders and their children waiting in line to shop
Don't physically attack mainlanders and their kids who are simply waiting in line to shop
Don't act like children
You have grievances? protest peacefully / bring it up with your government representatives. Also, most of all, realize at the end of the day you are Chinese and are living in a city of China; stop hating yourself.
To be honest, I have seen more Hong Kong locals pick their nose and clip their fingernails while on the MTR than I have seen mainlanders spitting on the street.
Also, although there are always these "random" cases, for the past 5 years I have lived in Hong Kong, I have never once seen a mainland kid piss on the street. I once saw a kid of a local parent piss in the stairwell, but that was the only time.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by asian_XL
apparently, freedom of speech does not exist on RS
Hong Kong on the otherhand is one of the most racist and xenopobic places I have ever been. If you are from SE Asia, no matter what you are looked down upon. If you are from mainland, you are looked down upon. If you are from a western country, you are praised. For those who just come to visit for a week or two, you cannot comprehend what it is truly like. HK is run by greed, it always has been and always will be.
hongers are so racist they're racist to their own race, this i agree with
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFlush
Rents increasing, shortage and increase price of milk powder, and more luxury shops. How stupid are hongers to blame mainlanders when the rent increase is due to the developers limiting supply as well as the government. The shortage and increase price of milk powder is because greedy ass shops are hoarding away and increasing the price for more profit. More luxury shops because the landlords know they can have higher ROI if they rent out to Chow Tai Fok as oppose to a small mom and pop shop. Yes, it's the mainlanders who are shopping here, but its the supply that is controled by the people of HK and the government which is fucking over hk, not the mainlanders
general belief is that CY Leung was not voted by the people but appointed by PRC; aka he's PRC's puppet
so in that case the HK government = PRC = mainlanders
^
The same argument can be made for Taiwan as well (whole different topic). Taiwan, HK, China, they all come from the same recent ancestors (for those whole believe in evolution and everyone came from one cell).
Nationality-wise, they may be different, but ethnicity-wise, they are all the same. So if politically speaking, it would be more correct to group everyone under Han (Chinese).
To be honest, I have seen more Hong Kong locals pick their nose and clip their fingernails while on the MTR than I have seen mainlanders spitting on the street.
Also, although there are always these "random" cases, for the past 5 years I have lived in Hong Kong, I have never once seen a mainland kid piss on the street. I once saw a kid of a local parent piss in the stairwell, but that was the only time.
Totally agree! On my very first day out shopping on my first ever visit, walked into a shoe store, and a lady (probably the owner's mom or something) was sitting on a stool picking her nose... Right as I walked in, she pulled out a booger, and flicked it on the floor in front of her
And nail clipping... that sound drives me fucking crazy.
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My best suggestion would be for the PRC government to open up Shanghai and develop it heavily along with Hengqin. Make it a free port, set it up as the only finance center to access dim sum bonds and set the tax rate to be very low. Invest better infrastructure and redevelopment. Move away all the finance from Hong Kong to Shanghai and remove the return home permit for Hongers and take away all the commerce.
Then hongers won't complain about mainlanders going to HK since they won't need to go to HK anymore.
The only problem is that HK would be left for dead, but as long as they have their excolonism pride, they can survive on that.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by asian_XL
apparently, freedom of speech does not exist on RS
Well im sorry to tell you but they're all Chinese at the end of the day.
Go tell a CBC, ABC, malaysian chinese that they're the same as a mainlander because "at the end of the day" they're all chinese
it would be the same as a honger grouped with mainlanders, way to generalize an entire group's identity. You don't decide what their identity is, they do.
My best suggestion would be for the PRC government to open up Shanghai and develop it heavily along with Hengqin. Make it a free port, set it up as the only finance center to access dim sum bonds and set the tax rate to be very low. Invest better infrastructure and redevelopment. Move away all the finance from Hong Kong to Shanghai and remove the return home permit for Hongers and take away all the commerce.
Then hongers won't complain about mainlanders going to HK since they won't need to go to HK anymore.
The only problem is that HK would be left for dead, but as long as they have their excolonism pride, they can survive on that.
So much hate man.... you have so much hate inside you (note: I am not judging you, just saying)
No care for personal hygiene. AParents taking their kids out for a potty break using a garbage can on a street or other public area. Example: There was a story last year about a mother taking her kid for a pee in a garbage can in Richmond centre mall. Mainland Chinese? Perhaps.
No fashion sense: A friend from Hong Kong has told me that he has seen a guy wearing a suit and a pair of slippers, while using a wheelbarrow to do construction work in China. Seriously.
Consumer Spending based solely on cash.
Questionable taste in terms of modifying their cars.
If a white person lets his kid pee in a planter it's a good call:
On top of everything that has already been mentioned, there are 2 additional extremely inflammatory points that have not been mentioned yet:
1) the Mainland Chinese' belittling / looking down on Hong Kong and its people 2) the colonization of Hong Kong via "uncontrolled" immigration, the deliberate displacement of Cantonese with Mandarin
The back story to #1 is a bit too long winded to go into detail, but suffice to say, a lot of the Mainland tourists go to Hong Kong with the mentality that they (Mainland Chinese tourists) are Hong Kong economy's saviours because of the tremendous tourism and retail dollars they bring. Additionally, they have been conditioned by the Mainland Chinese media into thinking that Hong Kong simply cannot survive were it not for China's exports of a comprehensive list of food items and water, so they think Hong Kongers shouldn't just be thankful of the Mainland providing them with food -- they think Hong Kongers should be ever so grateful that the Mainland is providing them with the essentials to survive.
Hong Kong people's views on this matter is quite different. While most will agree that the initial surge of Chinese tourists back in 2003 gave the city a much needed jolt to re-start the economic momentum (even though studies have only pegged that initial boost to account for ~1% of Hong Kong's GDP), SARS was also originally brought into Hong Kong by a Mainland Chinese national. Additionally, even in its current overflowing surge of Mainland tourists, the real economic activities generated from the Mainland tours are only estimated to account for 3 - 4.5% of the city's GDP. Furthermore, SkinnyPupp has already mentioned how the economic benefits from the Mainland tourists don't really filter down to the masses, and yet is causing serious disruptions to Hong Kongers regular daily lives.
The food items, in particular, is another sticking point. First of all, many Hong Kongers simply view the Chinese food exports as nothing more than a business transaction, so there is really nothing to be thankful about. On the other hand, Hong Kong has been bounded by contractual agreements to purchase "fresh" drinking water from China at exuberant prices when a) cheaper alternatives exists, and b) much of this purchased water is simply dumped into the seas. And then there is the questionable safety of Mainland Chinese food items. Recently for example, poultry imports from the Mainland has tainted the entire Hong Kong supply due to avian flu, and the entire city has been forced to cull its poultry stock in the midst of CNY when poultry consumption is a long established practice. Other similar examples are frequent, though they occur on smaller scales.
To me, #2 is likely the more inflammatory item. The Mainland government has systematically been pushing Mandarin as not just the dominant language in Mainland China, but as the nearly exclusive language of use in the country. More importantly, Mainland Chinese for some reason think that Mandarin is "superior" to other Chinese dialects and look down upon their use. The unfortunate policy and mentality have already wrecked havoc in Shanghai and Guangzhou where Shanghaiese and Cantonese are traditionally spoken, and is now extending its reach into Hong Kong. With the overwhelming majority of Hong Kongers (97% was the estimate) speaking Cantonese, the language/dialect is very much an identifying trait for people in Hong Kong. To have the Mainland government pushing policies to erode the language is a thinly veiled attempt to destroy Hong Kongers' own heritage and identity. To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.
There are some very valid reasons why Hong Kongers dislike their Mainland neighbours as much as they do now, and quite frankly, I am surprised by how much shxt Hong Kongers have been putting up with all this time without some larger scale resistance/backlash.
To me, #2 is likely the more inflammatory item. The Mainland government has systematically been pushing Mandarin as not just the dominant language in Mainland China, but as the nearly exclusive language of use in the country. More importantly, Mainland Chinese for some reason think that Mandarin is "superior" to other Chinese dialects and look down upon their use. The unfortunate policy and mentality have already wrecked havoc in Shanghai and Guangzhou where Shanghaiese and Cantonese are traditionally spoken, and is now extending its reach into Hong Kong. With the overwhelming majority of Hong Kongers (97% was the estimate) speaking Cantonese, the language/dialect is very much an identifying trait for people in Hong Kong. To have the Mainland government pushing policies to erode the language is a thinly veiled attempt to destroy Hong Kongers' own heritage and identity. To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.
Well the reason for Mandarin is because it is the "basic" dialect that had been adopted for the whole country to improve communications. It is a tool for unification. For English speakers, it is like everyone is forced to speak the Queen's English rather than Aussie or Canadian or American English. I have to say Mandarin is a heck lot easier to learn than Cantonese, since the structure has been "Romanticized".
Culturally, Mandarin vs Cantonese dialect is not as damaging as Simplified vs Traditional writing. Since simplified Chinese you do lose a lot of nuances that existed in traditional / ancient Chinese writing that have no equivalency in Simplified Chinese. PRC is caught in a pickle with that because outside of HK, the only other "geographic entity" that teaches traditional Chinese is Taiwan, now do PRC want to destroy people's ability to read traditional Chinese text just to wipe out Taiwan? That's the question.
Then again, most HK people can't write Chinese (Simplified / Traditional) worth diddly anyways these days. So I think that part of the destruction is self applied and pretty assured.
In the end, the land HK is sitting on, belongs to China and pretty much all the ocean real estate surrounding HK. I am curious what people in HK who are mad enough can do to change that.
To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.
There are some very valid reasons why Hong Kongers dislike their Mainland neighbours as much as they do now, and quite frankly, I am surprised by how much shxt Hong Kongers have been putting up with all this time without some larger scale resistance/backlash.
I'm assuming what you mean is that signs and textbooks will no longer need to have both English and French in them. It'll save money in this way. Who decides whether $1 million or $1 billion is worth it to keep printing signs and books with French in them? Even if you're talking about just strictly spoken language, I'm sure companies can save money from not having a French version of their automatic voice system.
Which brings to the point that the situation is a little bit different in HK-China. The written language is the same. It's just the spoken language, or dialect
that's different.
edit: If you include Traditional and Simplified Chinese, then same situation.
On top of everything that has already been mentioned, there are 2 additional extremely inflammatory points that have not been mentioned yet:
1) the Mainland Chinese' belittling / looking down on Hong Kong and its people 2) the colonization of Hong Kong via "uncontrolled" immigration, the deliberate displacement of Cantonese with Mandarin
The back story to #1 is a bit too long winded to go into detail, but suffice to say, a lot of the Mainland tourists go to Hong Kong with the mentality that they (Mainland Chinese tourists) are Hong Kong economy's saviours because of the tremendous tourism and retail dollars they bring. Additionally, they have been conditioned by the Mainland Chinese media into thinking that Hong Kong simply cannot survive were it not for China's exports of a comprehensive list of food items and water, so they think Hong Kongers shouldn't just be thankful of the Mainland providing them with food -- they think Hong Kongers should be ever so grateful that the Mainland is providing them with the essentials to survive.
Hong Kong people's views on this matter is quite different. While most will agree that the initial surge of Chinese tourists back in 2003 gave the city a much needed jolt to re-start the economic momentum (even though studies have only pegged that initial boost to account for ~1% of Hong Kong's GDP), SARS was also originally brought into Hong Kong by a Mainland Chinese national. Additionally, even in its current overflowing surge of Mainland tourists, the real economic activities generated from the Mainland tours are only estimated to account for 3 - 4.5% of the city's GDP. Furthermore, SkinnyPupp has already mentioned how the economic benefits from the Mainland tourists don't really filter down to the masses, and yet is causing serious disruptions to Hong Kongers regular daily lives.
The food items, in particular, is another sticking point. First of all, many Hong Kongers simply view the Chinese food exports as nothing more than a business transaction, so there is really nothing to be thankful about. On the other hand, Hong Kong has been bounded by contractual agreements to purchase "fresh" drinking water from China at exuberant prices when a) cheaper alternatives exists, and b) much of this purchased water is simply dumped into the seas. And then there is the questionable safety of Mainland Chinese food items. Recently for example, poultry imports from the Mainland has tainted the entire Hong Kong supply due to avian flu, and the entire city has been forced to cull its poultry stock in the midst of CNY when poultry consumption is a long established practice. Other similar examples are frequent, though they occur on smaller scales.
To me, #2 is likely the more inflammatory item. The Mainland government has systematically been pushing Mandarin as not just the dominant language in Mainland China, but as the nearly exclusive language of use in the country. More importantly, Mainland Chinese for some reason think that Mandarin is "superior" to other Chinese dialects and look down upon their use. The unfortunate policy and mentality have already wrecked havoc in Shanghai and Guangzhou where Shanghaiese and Cantonese are traditionally spoken, and is now extending its reach into Hong Kong. With the overwhelming majority of Hong Kongers (97% was the estimate) speaking Cantonese, the language/dialect is very much an identifying trait for people in Hong Kong. To have the Mainland government pushing policies to erode the language is a thinly veiled attempt to destroy Hong Kongers' own heritage and identity. To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.
There are some very valid reasons why Hong Kongers dislike their Mainland neighbours as much as they do now, and quite frankly, I am surprised by how much shxt Hong Kongers have been putting up with all this time without some larger scale resistance/backlash.
why even bring up SARS as an argument...unless you are convinced it was a biochemical weapon that's as silly as blaming Africa if you were to contract HIV/AIDS
I just dont see how any of this comes off as surprising...only victors write the history books which is quite literal in this case. New history textbooks for the kids, passively promoting 'language of the officials' etc. It's happened and still happening to so many other ethnic groups around the world. Official language at school/work, traditional dialect at home in which the latter becomes an endangered language after generations. No amount of public backlash/protest is going to change that fact so instead of channeling all this frutration/anger just stress the importance to your kids and their kids of preserving your traditions.
The basic law has an expiry date and it's only a matter of time that a communist state which owns the SAR will slowly try to absorb Hong Kong's people/resources. At least they aren't doing it by military cage rattling/brute force.
tl;dr I hope Russell Peters is right the whole world just becomes a single ethnicity/nationality with beige skin colour
Then again, most HK people can't write Chinese (Simplified / Traditional) worth diddly anyways these days. So I think that part of the destruction is self applied and pretty assured.
care to elaborate? wth are they teaching in school? I thought there's no phonic system like pinyin or zhuyin...so they gotta be reading/writing it
Well the reason for Mandarin is because it is the "basic" dialect that had been adopted for the whole country to improve communications. It is a tool for unification. For English speakers, it is like everyone is forced to speak the Queen's English rather than Aussie or Canadian or American English. I have to say Mandarin is a heck lot easier to learn than Cantonese, since the structure has been "Romanticized".
Certainly having a common language (Mandarin, in this case) is beneficial as it improves communication, and if you look at it from an economics point of view, the common language dramatically reduces the transaction costs of whatever you are doing. I am not undermining those benefits at all. I also agree that Mandarin is easier to learn than Cantonese because there are only 4 or 5 distinct sounds that forms the spoken words, whereas Cantonese has 9, I think.
The thing that is pissing off Hong Kongers is the systematic erosion/displacement of Cantonese, and a general sense of belittling of Cantonese from the Mainlanders. Back in the 90's especially, Hong Kongers have no problem welcoming the influx of Mandarin into popular culture (through the music industry, especially). The difference is, at the time, the influx was coming more from Taiwan, and Taiwanese are in general a far more respectful group than Mainlanders.
Quote:
Culturally, Mandarin vs Cantonese dialect is not as damaging as Simplified vs Traditional writing. Since simplified Chinese you do lose a lot of nuances that existed in traditional / ancient Chinese writing that have no equivalency in Simplified Chinese. PRC is caught in a pickle with that because outside of HK, the only other "geographic entity" that teaches traditional Chinese is Taiwan, now do PRC want to destroy people's ability to read traditional Chinese text just to wipe out Taiwan? That's the question.
Then again, most HK people can't write Chinese (Simplified / Traditional) worth diddly anyways these days. So I think that part of the destruction is self applied and pretty assured.
I also agree with your remark regarding the cultural damage Simplified characters have, so much so that I think it should really be called the "crippled character set" (殘體字) instead of simplified characters. The cultural and identity damage I was referring to has more to do with a general everyday living type of consequence. In Shanghai and Guangzhou in particular, where the displacement of the original local language is already far more advanced, it is a really, really sad sight. In Shanghai, whole generations of youngsters have been dissuaded from speaking Shanghaiese that a lot of them no longer know how to speak it. The situation is so bad that nowadays, efforts have to made to re-introduce Shanghaiese in kindergarten as an attempt to keep the language/dialect alive.
In Guangzhou, I have both heard of stories and personally know a friend where the younger siblings cannot communicate with their grandparents because the grandparents don't know Mandarin, and the young kids don't know Cantonese. If this isn't a sad sight, I don't know what is. At the office, my coworker told me that her daughter knows she can freely speak English or Spanish to Mommy and Daddy, but she will automatically switch to Spanish only when speaking to Granny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reamemiya
I'm assuming what you mean is that signs and textbooks will no longer need to have both English and French in them. It'll save money in this way. Who decides whether $1 million or $1 billion is worth it to keep printing signs and books with French in them? Even if you're talking about just strictly spoken language, I'm sure companies can save money from not having a French version of their automatic voice system.
Which brings to the point that the situation is a little bit different in HK-China. The written language is the same. It's just the spoken language, or dialect
that's different.
edit: If you include Traditional and Simplified Chinese, then same situation.
It is not a matter of money in this case -- it is a matter of culture and heritage. You just can't put a price tag on that. As I was saying, imagine what kind of backlash we will see from Quebec if Ottawa suddenly says French is getting dumped as Canada's official language and French is no longer taught in school because the majority of Canadians speak English. And yet this is what the Mainland government is slowly trying to do in Hong Kong (as it has already done in other parts of Mainland China).
I just dont see how any of this comes off as surprising...only victors write the history books which is quite literal in this case. New history textbooks for the kids, passively promoting 'language of the officials' etc. It's happened and still happening to so many other ethnic groups around the world. Official language at school/work, traditional dialect at home in which the latter becomes an endangered language after generations. No amount of public backlash/protest is going to change that fact so instead of channeling all this frutration/anger just stress the importance to your kids and their kids of preserving your traditions.
The difference is forced erosion/displacement versus natural occurrence. Say, if a dear friend or family member passed away due to natural causes (old age, illness, whatever), you'd probably accept that reasonably well even though you miss him. Now suppose that same friend or family member is brutally killed, are you just going to swallow that without any kind of resentment? Or are you simply going to say, "instead of channelling all that frustration/anger, you are are just going to stress the importance of peacefully accepting the reality without doing anything"? At the language front, the sentiments are exactly the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero
care to elaborate? wth are they teaching in school? I thought there's no phonic system like pinyin or zhuyin...so they gotta be reading/writing it
Compared to past generations, the current kids generally have pretty poor literature skills. Proper "spelling", grammar, and writing skills are lacking. To a certain extent, this is also happening in North America society as well -- kids and youngsters these days tend to mix a lot of Internet slangs and shorthand into their writing too. But proportionally, I'd say the problem is a lot more severe in Hong Kong.
Gov / business written Chinese is different from verbal vernacular especially Cantonese.. The actual pass rate for Chinese lit in their version of provincials is extremely low. That's different from the Chinese you find on Facebook. I think the pass rate is also quite low in China, because it is brutal. But don't worry they have a huge population so they can still generate a useful pool of prospects.
PinYin / Zhuyin or actually Chinese recognition systems are so good that students can pick the words. But they can't form proper sentences. The modern Chinese education system is a spiral, if you miss the basics like writing and character recognition you just can't move up the chain to literature which is needed for modern Chinese business / transaction.
As an example, the international law firms I had consulted for before I retired, love to hire lawyers that can write Chinese because they can easily conduct business on both sides of the border, especially complex litigation that require written briefs. They won't hire new grads especially "BC"s no matter they can speak all dialects fluently. We found the more fluent they are, the lazier they are. They can't written Chinese so they need to hire a translator to keep up, for an apprentice? Really? So even though most local grads who do Chinese well, are a bit "off", we rather hire them as they typically show more humility and listen, than the upidity up "English/Chinese speaking ones". Granted it is a broad stroke, but that's something we had found to be corollary.
A PSA for Canadian parents.. don't bother sending you kids to Chinese school because it is a big waste of time. Being able to write your name, order food or understand verbal instructions on how to operate a squat toilet, do nothing to help your kids' future job prospects in China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero
care to elaborate? wth are they teaching in school? I thought there's no phonic system like pinyin or zhuyin...so they gotta be reading/writing it
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dat keyboard prediction
(note: I am not judging you, just saying)
