GTR > 911 Turbo

[TRD3000GT]

Timpo not here yet?

[Chopstick]

porsche is probably gonna go nuts on the next 911 turbo

[Jackygor]

Does anyone think that they used the M3 to dry off the track kind of funny? I was thinking they would use a crappier car.

[Marco911]

The GTR is comparably quick to the 911TT. The difference in lap time is easily within the margin of error for the driver. You see him drifiting all over the place in the 911, which loses valuable lap time, while he holds the line very steady in the GTR.

The GTR is a very good car, but how many people would seriously purchase one if they could afford a 911TT?

[darnold]

Originally posted by Marco911
The GTR is a very good car, but how many people would seriously purchase one if they could afford a 911TT? [/B]

Probably lots, most people who could truly afford a GTR im sure have the means for most porsches.

[SiNzz]

Correction: Most people who can afford a GTR after market can afford a porsche. I somehow fail to see how it's a bargain when the markup makes it nearly as much as a 911 TT. And yes, I do realize that Nissan is attempting to curb the markup issue. There will still be markups and bidwars as can already be seen.

[EuroTRASH]

I'd hardly call that a fair comparison between the 2. First of all they need a better driver to drive both cars.

[Jackygor]

Originally posted by dangonay


In other words, if you're hoping for a specific result from your experiments, you'll probably end up getting that result.


[/B]

He has a point, a bias definitely exists in this review. Another thing that is worth mentioning that is the GTR is a lot easier to drive than the 911T; it is even mentioned in the GTR brochsure. Now, I am not saying easier to drive is a bad thing, but like others have pointed out this review definitely needs a better driver.

[Marco911]

Originally posted by dangonay
Regardless, as I've already stated, having the GTR and the Z06 available should put pressure on Porsche. Sure it's built better than either car, but not enough to justify the price difference. [/B]

With premium products there is always going to be diminishing returns. Is a Rolex justifiably more expensive than a Seiko?

Fact of the matter is that the car is priced correctly if they reach the sales expectation for the company. 911s are by far the best selling sports car. The GTR is made in limited quantities, and is more an engineering exercise - a halo car for Nissan, than a car that makes a good business case. From a pure business point of view, the Z06 and the GTR aren't competition to the 911 because they will hardly make a dent in the sales of 911s.

[Timpo]

Originally posted by dangonay
Regardless, as I've already stated, having the GTR and the Z06 available should put pressure on Porsche. Sure it's built better than either car, but not enough to justify the price difference.

The F430 and Gallardo are slower than both GT-R and Z06. However people who can afford an F430 or Gallardo will still buy an F430 or Gallardo.
I think 911 Turbo should work the same way...(?)

[Marco911]

Originally posted by Jackygor
He has a point, a bias definitely exists in this review. Another thing that is worth mentioning that is the GTR is a lot easier to drive than the 911T; it is even mentioned in the GTR brochsure. Now, I am not saying easier to drive is a bad thing, but like others have pointed out this review definitely needs a better driver.

I don't like how they implied that the Porsche was tweaked by the factory, without citing any evidence. The reviewer also came very close to saying that the GTR drove with no passion (if you read between the lines) but he didn't come out and say it because he didn't want to disappoint the owner.

[Timpo]

oh yeah, btw

GT-R > 911 Turbo

[Lomac]

Originally posted by Marco911
Is a Rolex justifiably more expensive than a Seiko?

Whether this was intentional or not, liking a Porsche to a Rolex is rather fitting. From a quick glance, both companies sell products that appear to be of high quality and attainable only if you have lots of money to throw around. Where this begins to fall apart is that a Porsche C2S and Rolex President are actually made in a production line state. People with real money frown upon both products because they are sold in (comparatively) large numbers and are actually considered cheap.

Originally posted by Marco911
911s are by far the best selling sports car. The GTR is made in limited quantities, and is more an engineering exercise - a halo car for Nissan, than a car that makes a good business case. From a pure business point of view, the Z06 and the GTR aren't competition to the 911 because they will hardly make a dent in the sales of 911s.

Technically, the Mazda Miata is the world's best selling sports car.

I read a review by Clarkson a while back concerning the new Subaru STI and he brought up an intesting point. It doesn't matter how fast a gear box's reaction time is, nor does it matter how many nanoseconds faster Car A is compared to Car B.... what matters most, whether people like it or not, is how it looks. Cars, just like people, are often judged based on their looks. First impressions are important and the large majority of the time it's based upon how something looks. Asides from the front of the 996, 911's have always looked gorgeous. I don't care who you are, if you think it looks hideous then you've no idea how proper art should look like. The GTR (as well as the Skyline versions) is far from being a looker. Now, I know the GTRs have always had that special kind of look to it. However, none of them have ever had that sort of design where I'd simply stare at it for hours and say, "Mmm, that is absolutely gorgeous." I'm impressed by many of their abilities but their looks is not one of them. Sure, looks are subjective but.... c'mon. I can personally say I like the look of the MK2 GTI but I'd be an idiot to say that it's a timeless style. The 911 has that ability whereas the GTR doesn't.

However, I have to agree with Timpo. Those who can afford to buy X-Car and are looking for X-Car are unlikely to suddenly half their spending budget and buy a GTR. If I'm looking to buy an F430 or Merc, chances are I'm not going to settle for a Corvette Z06 or Nissan GTR.

[EndLeSS8]

wow.

Sound arguments and good points from ALL ends.
No flames at all.


The world is coming to an end.

[Great68]

What exactly defines driving "Passion"?

Is it some sort of quantifiable attribute?

Seems to me that driving "Passion" is just like vehicle appearance, totally subjective.

I don't know about anyone else, but I am more passionate about something that goes faster than something that goes slower.

[maxx]

hahahahaha.

THIS MUST MEAN ONE THING AND ONLY ONE.

All porsche owners will dump their cars and buy GTR. Porsche will go bankrupt and bow down to the ultimately powerful Nissan.

hahaha.
dont kid yourself, Nissan.

[The_AK]

Originally posted by pintocrazy
niiice!! i want 1... stupid canadian import rules

im pretty sure its going to be sold in canada,
i highly doubt nissan would set up a section for the gt-r on their canadian website,
the same goes for bringing it to the Autoshow in vancouver

[Marco911]

Originally posted by Great68
What exactly defines driving "Passion"?

Is it some sort of quantifiable attribute?

Seems to me that driving "Passion" is just like vehicle appearance, totally subjective.

I don't know about anyone else, but I am more passionate about something that goes faster than something that goes slower.

That's too simplistic. Passion = Anything that stimulates the senses in a GOOD way.

We have five sense:

Sight - Porsche just looks damn sexy. Better quality materials fitted throughout (advantage Porsche).

Smell - Porsche uses better leathers and pays very close attention to the dyeing process. You get a very high quality smell, and with the engine in the back and all the oil leaks, you sometimes get a whiff of engine oil. (advantage Porsche)

Touch - Porsche arguably has more road-feel, firmer controls, nicer materials. Seat-of-the-pants, you have to work to drive a 911 at its limits (not much effort required just to drive one fast), whereas the GTR is easier to drive around its limits. I think the 911 would be more stimulating and produce more adrenalin. The Z06/Viper excels at this because it has so much torque, the acceleration alone is a rush.

Sound - Sound of the flat-6 is intoxicating. Then again, the GTR also does sound pretty mean.

Taste - Buying a Nissan is just tasteless ;P

[Timpo]

Originally posted by maxx
All porsche owners will dump their cars and buy GTR. Porsche will go bankrupt and bow down to the ultimately powerful Nissan.

This is not going to happen. Nissan will only produce limited amount of GT-Rs.
Also if Porsche owners are simply looking for speed, they would have bankrupted long time ago when Z06 or Viper came out.

Porsche owners are enjoying the 911's style, rear engine layout, driving characteristics or whatever.

[Alphamale]

Originally posted by Marco911
. You get a very high quality smell, and with the engine in the back and all the oil leaks, you sometimes get a whiff of engine oil. (advantage Porsche)

That seriously cannot be an advantage. Seriously.

[LowTEC]

Originally posted by Timpo
This is not going to happen. Nissan will only produce limited amount of GT-Rs.
Also if Porsche owners are simply looking for speed, they would have bankrupted long time ago when Z06 or Viper came out.

Porsche owners are enjoying the 911's style, rear engine layout, driving characteristics or whatever.

I knew you were gonna fall for these grade 3 sarcastic lines, you are so predictable

[Marco911]

Originally posted by Alphamale
That seriously cannot be an advantage. Seriously.

Why not? If you have gasoline in your veins, and you remember the air-cooled cars of yore, the smell of oil brings good memories.

[Marco911]

Originally posted by dangonay
Porsche isn't going to go bankrupt, but I bet they'll lose sales to the GTR and Z06 (and the R8 and ZR1).

People looking for a Ferrari or Lambo would never consider a car like a GTR or Z06. But then again, they likely wouldn't consider a Porsche either. That's because Porsche is another rung lower on the ladder:

GTR, Z06
911's, R8
F430, Gallardo

What the Z06 & GTR are to the Porsche 911TT is what the Porsche 911TT is to the F430 and Gallardo. A less expensive, semi-mass produced car that offers the same performance for a lot less money.

If you read reviews over the years of the 911TT vs its exotic brothers you'll find they sound a lot like reviews of the Z06 vs the Porsche.


If people claim buyers will cross-shop a Porsche with a Ferrari or Lamborghini, then you have to concede people will cross-shop a Porsche with a Chevy or Nissan.

I do not agree, because wealthy people don't price shop. Case in point, Jerry Seinfeld could afford any exotic car in the world. Yet he drives 911s. Plenty of wealthy people buy 911s over F-cars and Lambos because they are pretty much the best sports car you can buy. F-car and Lambo owners are a much smaller niche market. The Porsche CGT can hold its own against the best supercars in the world, so as a nameplate, it's pretty much up there.

[Lomac]

Originally posted by Marco911
I do not agree, because wealthy people don't price shop. Case in point, Jerry Seinfeld could afford any exotic car in the world. Yet he drives 911s. Plenty of wealthy people buy 911s over F-cars and Lambos because they are pretty much the best sports car you can buy. F-car and Lambo owners are a much smaller niche market. The Porsche CGT can hold its own against the best supercars in the world, so as a nameplate, it's pretty much up there.

I think you missed his point. It's not a matter of what you can afford to buy. Instead, if you're looking at a certain price range, you're likely not going to consider a considerably cheaper car. If you're in the market for an M3/RS4, you're not going to look at the Civic Type R or GTI. It's the same for exotics. If you're considering an F430 or Murciélago, you're likely not going to consider a 911 C2S. That is what Dangonay was trying to say.

[Blinky]

Originally posted by Marco911
Plenty of wealthy people buy 911s over F-cars and Lambos because they are pretty much the best sports car you can buy.

Whoa. This is a bit much, even for Marco.

There is so much fundamentally "wrong" with the 911. Don't get me wrong -- I love the thing and would probably buy one in a heartbeat. However:

- its engine is in the wrong place.
- it uses MacStruts in front.

Decades of refinement have made it a damn impressive vehicle, but here are two things, at least, that are just plain "wrong" when it comes to building "the best sports car".

Why can't you get a cayman with more power and an LSD? Because fundamentally it's a better platform than a 911.

Why did Porsche go with a race car suspension and midengine on the CGT? It's fundamentally better.

----

Anyways, back on topic, somewhat. From seeing the vids, it's pretty obvious that the 911 isn't being driven too well -- its ass is sliding all over the place. In fact, it's being overdriven.

OTOH, I do believe that the GTR isn't being driven at the limit either, and it might be easier to drive as one approaches the limit. That is a pure guess.