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Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Technical Discussion > Advanced Forced Induction & N/A Engine Tuning

Advanced Forced Induction & N/A Engine Tuning This forum is brought to you by Racing Greed in Port Coquitlam.
Supercharger vs Turbocharger vs NA? Hondata vs Megasquirt? 94oct vs 87oct? Through technical discussion, let's find out what will the best option for you...

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Old 01-06-2010, 10:25 AM   #26
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For more information, a proper way to tune meth injection without using sencondary rail is to use standalone with extra input that can trigger different map (let's say, NOS map). You'll have two different map one tuned just for pump gas, and the other one tuned with methanol. Depending on EMS, you can set different boost, timing, and or fuel on each map. Now, fail safe, line pressure sensor, or flow meter (varies from different meth kits) will tell EMS if the meth system is working or not, and the EMS will switch the map according to these readings. That way you can minimize the chance of blowing your engine from meth system failure.
Basic "meth" injection kits don't have a lot of these features which make it safe. Most of meth system, only controll the pump, which means the whole meth line can be emptied from manifold vacuum. This causes "methanol delay" which means the car will run lean untill the meth line is once again pressurized. Meth delay can cause serious engine damage. This happens worse on trunk mounted tank setups
For that reason, a good meth system will come with a "check valve" that stops the meth from getting sucked in from manifold vacuum, or a "solenoid" using constant line pressure.

Here's a dyno comparison between pump gas and meth tune from a fully built KA24DE with gt35r, AEM meth kit, and megasquirt. (Fail safe was done through EBC w/ relay)

The pumpgas tune was fully setup to the knock threshold just before detonation occured.

(Most of 4 cylinder engine will push less than 300whp at the wheel on our dyno with 94 oct.)


Run 1 : pump gas (Solid line)
Run 2 : Meth (Dashed line)
Red : horsepower
Blue : Torque
Green : Boost




That's close to 108 whp gain (about 140 crank hp)and the meth tune wasn't pushed as far as it could have been either.

(Our mustang dyno reads about 25% off the crank hp, and reads 10 to 15% lower than dyno jet dynos, or any other dyno that runs a "correction factor" to match other dyno numbers.)
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Last edited by RacingGreed; 01-06-2010 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:17 AM   #27
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To be honest there really isnt that many parts in a water/meth injection kit, the only thing that can really fail is the pump that moves the meth from the holding tank to the injector nozzle and of course human failure for not filling the holding tank up. In a sense it can be a band aid solution to your problem, I have seen people goto a water/meth injection kit because its cheaper then purchasing a installing a FMIC which is just stupid. In my opinion a water/meth injection kit is the way to go on any forced induction application, not only do you have a little more insurance against detonation but you also have the ease of running lower octane pump gas which is cheaper, not to mention each gas station has a different octane rating on there premium fuel. Look at it this way after filling up 15 times with regular your water/injection kit will pay for itself in comparison to filling up with premium. If you combine premium with water/meth your essentially ending up with something equivalent to 110+ octane race fuel opening up a huge window of possibilities on your tune/power output.

Edit: On a side note your MAP sensor will not detect if your water/meth kit is flowing, MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure, its basically just there to get rid of your constricting airflow meter and serves the same purpose. Most kits now have a built in failsafe or some kind of alarm that will tell you if something is wrong with your injection system and as RG mentioned a lot of aftermarket EMS can be setup to change tunes if such a problem occurs. Check out the Snow Performance kits, especially there "safety box" it can tell your ECU to change tunes, trip a safety light and even disconnect your EBC and its not even proprietary to there water injection kits.

Last edited by ne14t?; 01-13-2010 at 08:25 AM. Reason: side note
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Old 04-20-2011, 08:47 PM   #28
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I am running water meth on my wrx every day. The proper set up can be run quite safely in my humble opinion. I am running a Aquamist set up with a flow gauge. The flow gauge sends a signal to my ECU when the W/M flow is within a specified range. My ECU then uses its 4d/5d mapping to signal the use of auxilarry fuel and timing tables. If the flow isn't right (over flow signalling a leak post flow gauge or under flow signifying a clogged jet) it goes back to the fuel and timing maps meant for without meth. This allows me to get an extra 15hp at the same boost level, better spool up, and lower egt's. Now I just need to make up another boost table so that if the W/M system has a problem, it cuts the boost as well. Then I'll run 18psi with meth, and 14.5psi without.

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Water/Meth is a fools way of tuning a car IMO. Your relying on something that has so many parts that can fail and when it fails your almost sure to blow your motor because your running it past the point of no return at levels it would not normally run at.

Berz out.
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:54 PM   #29
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I use AEM using the fault output from the controller to operate a relay that powers the boost solenoid as well. A fault on the meth controller kicks everything back down to wastegate base pressure.

I also use a failsafe output from my EMS to operate the relay as well. The output comes on if AFR becomes leaner than whatever value i have specified in my AFR target map by more than a certain margin.

IMO this is very safe, becuase the system is not only protected form a meth kit failure, but flaky fuel pump, etc as well. If it gets unexpectedly lean for any reason, it cuts power to the boost solenoid. Simple and effective.

It's only a fools way of tuning a car if you implement it like a fool. Same goes for anything.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:58 AM   #30
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Where do you guys go for the tuning after installing meth?
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Old 07-03-2011, 04:48 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Where do you guys go for the tuning after installing meth?
I tuned my car myself, with a little help from Cam at Lightspeed in Red Deer, AB. I'm sure racing greed can tune it for you as they are the sponsors of this thread. There are quite a few shops around the Vancouver area. Some have been around a long time, some are new like MonkeyNutz. I would call a few of them and maybe even visit them. Find somebody you feel comfortable working with.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:08 AM   #32
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I have a Pontiac Grand Prix with the supercharged 3800 series 2 engine ( L67 ).

I've done several mods including pulley, intake, and exhaust work.
I recently purchased a methanol injection kit for it and was wondering if Racing Greed or anyone else has experience installing such kits? What kind of time and cost would I be looking at. I may just do it myself but I'm very busy these days and thought it best to check in here first.

Also I was curious what shop is experienced in tuning the car afterwards for maximum performance? I know methanol injection is really dependent on a good tune.

Thank you in advance
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:38 PM   #33
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forcefed racing in abbotsford does good installs and tunes with meth injection systems. Getting one on my FD soon
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:38 PM   #34
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forcefed racing in abbotsford does good installs and tunes with meth injection systems. Getting one on my FD soon

Thank you for the help, much appreciated!
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:16 PM   #35
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Unfortunately for me, forcefed only works on imports. Bump for any information regarding a reputable shop who is experienced in domestics as well.
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Old 09-09-2012, 06:58 PM   #36
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you could have will at overkill make a custom tuned pcm for you
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:03 PM   #37
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:18 AM   #38
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Thanks guys!

Trying to reach Racing Greed but having trouble getting a hold of them. I'll keep trying.
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:08 AM   #39
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Forcedfed will do whatever you pay them to do. My GLH-T is certainly not an import.. albeit it does only have 4cyls.. The AEM setup they put together and tuned for it works flawlessly. While it's not tuned for max power output with the meth, Its set currently as a safeguard against shitty fuel, cold OAT's and other things that would cause detonation, on the street, daily.

I also had them do the install and setup of my Aquamist HFS-4 on my R56. Now THAT is the way to go on the direct injection engines. I'll most likely go that way on my 135i
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