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Advanced Forced Induction & N/A Engine Tuning This forum is brought to you by Racing Greed in Port Coquitlam.
Supercharger vs Turbocharger vs NA? Hondata vs Megasquirt? 94oct vs 87oct? Through technical discussion, let's find out what will the best option for you...

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Old 07-09-2008, 08:43 PM   #1
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Water-Methanol Injection

History:
First off water-methanol injection is nothing new. Water Injection was first successfully implemented in WWII on the P-47 “Thunderbolt”. The Turbo Charged Pratt & Whitney R-2800 engine normally produced 2000 HP, with water injection the engine could produce up to 3800 HP. With water injection, the P-47 had 20 minutes worth of high power output for combat situations. One initial problem was that at high altitudes the water would freeze. So to prevent freezing, methanol was finally added to the injection mixture. Later studies done by the Army Corp of Engines actually determined that with a 50/50 mix of water-methanol even more power could be produced over water injection alone.



On Demand Octane Boost:
Octane is simple a measure of a fuels ability to resist spontaneous combustion, also known as preignition. Due to high temperatures and pressures associated with forced induction, a fuel might ignite before the spark event. This results in a very fast flame and extreme combustion pressures that can destroy an engine. The higher the fuel octane, the slower the fuel will burn and less chance of preignition.
Engine knock is actually different then preignition. Knock is the result of the spontaneous combustion of left over gasses in the cylinder. The engine damaging effect is similar to preignition.



Higher octane will not make more horse power by itself. If an engine is tuned for 93 octane, and C116 race fuel is added to the tank, the engine will not make more power simply from the different fuel. If the engine is tuned for C116, then more power can be made, either by more spark advance or more boost. Problem with C116 is one, it is expensive, and two you are wasting that high octane fuel at idle or low engine loads when it is not needed.



The octane rating of water is infinite. It can’t spontaneously combust as you can’t burn water. Methanol is also a high octane fuel in itself. Here are some octane ratings of various fuels:

Chemical / RON / MON
(The octane number you see in the US is [RON + MON]/2)

Methanol / 133 / 105
Ethanol / 129 / 102
Isopropyl Alcohol / 118 /98
MTBE / 116 / 103
Toluene / 124 / 112
Meta Xylene / 164 / 124
Dicyclopentadiene / 229 /167

As a rule of thumb, 50/50 Water/Methanol injection will increase the octane rating of pump gas by 25% during injection. (Note that C16 Race gas is already 116 octane, W/M will slow flame more). So with a load based injection system, you only get the octane increase when needed.
Water is capable of cooling the combustion chamber more efficiently then gasoline. Water has a higher Latent Heat of Vaporization then gasoline. When water is injected in very small droplet sizes into the combustion chamber, it readily absorbs heat as the partials go from liquid to gas state. The water particles actually “pop” or create multiple micro explosions. These micro explosions help to slow the flame front, effectively increasing the octane rating. These micro explosions also help to “stir” the air fuel charge or create a swirl effect in the combustion chamber. This swirl effect results in a more complete combustion of the fuel, leading to lower NOx emissions. With a more complete combustion, engine knock is reduced. This is due to the lower amount of gases available after combustion that can spontaneously combust.



Air / Fuel Ratios:
A gasoline engine will make the most power at an A/F of 12 to 12.5 to 1. The problem is that at this lean of A/F ratio, a forced induction engine will have a tendency for preignition when using regular octane pump gas. That is why most forced inductions engines are tuned for an A/F of around 11.5/1. At 11.5/ 1, 10-15% extra fuel is being added to cool the cylinder and top of the piston to prevent preignition. This extra fuel is not burned in the combustion process and goes out the tail pipe.



A 50/50 mix of water-methanol, when injected in the right quantity, will lower A/F by at least ½ point. Now the engine fueling can be reduced, more timing added, or more boost can be added allowing the engine to make more power.
Chemical Intercooling:
Most water-methanol injection systems are designed to spray the injection mix after the intercooler and before the throttle body. These systems are designed to inject the mixture with a high pressure pump and fluid atomizing nozzle. The smaller the injection particles, the more surface area there is of the small droplets, and the more heat that can be removed. As mentioned above, the high Latent Heat of Vaporization of water lowers in the Intake Air Temp as the water absorbs heat going from a liquid to gas state. A cooler air charge reduces the chance of pre-ignition allowing for more timing or higher boost levels.
An intercooler does the same thing to lower air charge temperatures. One draw back of an intercooler is the boost pressure drop across the intercooler. A second is that in an air to air intercooler, cooling efficiency is limited to that of ambient air temperatures. A third draw back is cost and weight of large front mount intercoolers.

Injection Fluids:
The most common question we get is “Where can I buy Methanol”. Most are surprised to find out that everyday window washer fluid is nothing more then water and methanol.
When using window washer fluid for injection, look for these items to insure you have a good product.[list][*] The fluid is Blue[*] The label says protects to -20 or -25F[*] No soap bubble form when you shake the bottle.

Note you want to avoid mixtures that contain propylene glycol (anti-freeze). This is commonly added to window washer fluid to lower the temperature rating and is harmful to the engine if injected.
Here are some methanol ratios of commonly available washer fluids per the manufactures MSDS.



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Old 12-16-2008, 11:12 PM   #2
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One thing i've wondered about Water/Meth is

the fact that you can increase boost because of the increased octane and cooling of the water/meth injection.

Can you run higher boost and run more power without the fear of having to upgrade your internals?

because from what i've come to learn, most engines go because of detonation and with the added protection of water/meth injection it should help with that, what do you think? i haven't done much research just things i've read in magazines.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:21 AM   #3
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One thing i've wondered about Water/Meth is



Can you run higher boost and run more power without the fear of having to upgrade your internals?
Meth injection only helps prevent detonation. Thus you can run higher boost levels. It will not eliminate the need for forged internals. Higher power output = bigger/more powerful combustion = the need for stronger internals.

Here's an example. If an engine is known to have weak ringlands higher octane gas will not help with that. That being said, there are a lot of motors that are known to have strong internals out of the factory i.e
2JZ-DET or the RB26DET.

For the most part, the answer is no. Unless you have a motor that is known to be bullet proof out of the factory.
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:13 AM   #4
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Weak ringlands are usually still only broken by detonation , for example , if you were to boost up your motor , without detonating , even the motor with "weak" ringlands would break something else first (like the rods or a headgasket)
The answer is yes , you can make a lot more power without breaking your motor if you avoid detonation.
Another thing about running methanol injection is the cooling effect it has in the cylinder , heat is a huge contributor to engine failure too.
Conversely , if you detonate even at low boost , you can break even a built motor , I think there is a lot of mis-conception about this , people think that if you build your motor , it will not blow up , this is so untrue.
Also , methanol adds a huge "margin of error" as far as tuning is concerned, it makes things about as foolproof as it gets!
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:44 AM   #5
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Weak ringlands are usually still only broken by detonation , for example , if you were to boost up your motor , without detonating , even the motor with "weak" ringlands would break something else first (like the rods or a headgasket)
The answer is yes , you can make a lot more power without breaking your motor if you avoid detonation.
Another thing about running methanol injection is the cooling effect it has in the cylinder , heat is a huge contributor to engine failure too.
Conversely , if you detonate even at low boost , you can break even a built motor , I think there is a lot of mis-conception about this , people think that if you build your motor , it will not blow up , this is so untrue.
Also , methanol adds a huge "margin of error" as far as tuning is concerned, it makes things about as foolproof as it gets!
The answer is yes? Water/met injection does NOT replace built internals. You can run higher boost which will in turn make more power. But once you start increasing the stress on the stock parts. You're asking for a blown motor. I guess everyone doing fast times on the track built their internals just for the hell of it.

You're right about one thing, built internals will not prevent a blown engine IF you detonate.

I only mentioned weak ring lands because H22 pistons are known for having them. You dont have to detonate to blow out your ringlands.
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Old 01-02-2009, 01:47 AM   #6
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The answer is yes , you can make more power without breaking your engine running methanol .

H22 motors don't have especially weaker ringlands than any other honda (they are all weak) actually the weak point of the h22 is the rods and the sleeves (in the later ones), in this case , NO, meth will not help you , more power equals bent rods .

I have found in almost every case , broken ringlands result from detonation , if it happened from sheer power , many other components would sooner fail , the way you say , "blown out" to describe ringland damage is not very accurate , they basically crack or fracture and just continue to "sit" there, sandwiched between the rings until the up and down motion of the piston slowly wears them down , this could take months , it is like a slow death.

Don't even get me started about why everyone who runs their car at the track built their motor , they still blow up!
Why is it that people in cali built 10 second hondas over 10 yeas ago , running stock block hondas?
I'll give you one guess...

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Old 01-02-2009, 02:01 AM   #7
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The answer is yes , you can make more power without breaking your engine running methanol .

H22 motors don't have especially weaker ringlands than any other honda actually the weak point of the h22 is the rods and the sleeves (in the later ones), in this case , NO, meth will not help you , more power equals bent rods .

I have found in almost every case , broken ringlands result from detonation , if it happened from sheer power , many other components would sooner fail , the way you say , "blown out" to describe ringland damage is not very accurate , they basically crack or fracture and just continue to "sit" there, sandwiched between the rings until the up and down motion of the piston slowly wears them down , this could take months , it is like a slow death.

Don't even get me started about why everyone who runs their car at the track built their motor , they still blow up!
Why is it that people in cali built 10 second hondas over 10 yeas ago , running stock block hondas?
I'll give you one guess...

Your argument is completely flawed. I kept stating in every post that you can make more power with meth injection just because of the fact that you can increase boost with out detonation.

You're talking about 10 second hondas 10 years ago? Lets talk about the present; Why is it that 8 second Honda's are not running on stock components?
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:14 AM   #8
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Your argument is completely flawed. I kept stating in every post that you can make more power with meth injection just because of the fact that you can increase boost with out detonation.

You're talking about 10 second honda's 10 years ago? I dont know where you've been but 10 seconds are n/a numbers now a days. Lets talk about the present; Why is it that 8 second Honda's are not running on stock components?

OK , then I guess we have no argument at all.

You can make more power with meth injection just because of the fact that you can increase boost with out detonation. (not to mention all the other advantages)

We both agree.

As far as people running 10's
I thought you were talking about local people running at mission !
yes , people in the states run 8's or faster now , but where are all the 10 second hondas here?

Obviously you cannot feasibly run 1000hp on stock honda internals.
(but you can run 350-400 on a b-series)

Every component has it's limit, you will reach it sooner if your engine detonates.

I'm not arguing anything here - just facts.

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Old 01-02-2009, 11:36 AM   #9
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I was reading this 350z owners install of some water injection kit...

http://my350z.com/forum/engine-drive...tall-350z.html

... and I noticed he only gained 20hp. I've read from a magazine that with proper tuning, gains of nearly 100hp is possible. Do you guys think he gained power without tuning timing at all?

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Old 01-02-2009, 12:11 PM   #10
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Probably , he could have gained more , but meth can be used in a few different ways , as "insurance" or to gain more power . He probably used a small nozzle and didn't change the tune much or at all - still gaining 20hp , mostly from cooler intake charge and higher octane.

If he were to go to a larger nozzle 600 or even 1000cc , and lean out the fuel acordingly , then add timing , he could quite possibly gain 100hp , what I like about doing it this way , is , if your meth stops pumping , the car will go so lean that you won't even be able to boost , it's like a failsafe!
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:48 PM   #11
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Probably , he could have gained more , but meth can be used in a few different ways , as "insurance" or to gain more power . He probably used a small nozzle and didn't change the tune much or at all - still gaining 20hp , mostly from cooler intake charge and higher octane.

If he were to go to a larger nozzle 600 or even 1000cc , and lean out the fuel acordingly , then add timing , he could quite possibly gain 100hp , what I like about doing it this way , is , if your meth stops pumping , the car will go so lean that you won't even be able to boost , it's like a failsafe!
In order to gain something close to 100hp, the a/f would have to be tuned absolutely perfectly, you'd have to be running something bigger than a 200cc nozzle (unless you want to run dual smaller nozzles, which in some applications is actually better than a single 500cc or bigger nozzle), and everything else applicable would have to be tuned just right.

The problem with leaning the fuel right out is that you run the risk of melting the internals of your engine, particularly your pistons. It's happened to a friend's car... the water injection didn't kick in, but the computer had failed to compensate for this, so it ran lean while boosting aaaaaaand boom goes a piston. It's not something I'd like to use as an insurance failsafe.

Just be very wary of what you're doing.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:39 AM   #12
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What I was saying , Is that if you run a big enough methanol jet (or jets) , you need to lean out the fuel to the point where if the meth doesn't kick in your A/F will be so lean( like 17:1 ) that yur car won't even boost up at all.
It will still drive normal off boost but as soon as you go into boost , it will cut out , that is what I meant by failsafe.


YES , you need to be VERY wary of what you are doing.

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Old 01-03-2009, 12:52 AM   #13
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this is probably a dumb question and not in the right thread but considering that internals may blow, would a MAP sensor be able to tell if water/methanol mix is flowing through or does it only detect air? For that matter, do you have to convert to a MAP set up or can you just tune with MAF's and cross your fingers and hope the water doesnt fail
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:59 AM   #14
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In order to gain something close to 100hp, the a/f would have to be tuned absolutely perfectly, you'd have to be running something bigger than a 200cc nozzle (unless you want to run dual smaller nozzles, which in some applications is actually better than a single 500cc or bigger nozzle), and everything else applicable would have to be tuned just right.

The problem with leaning the fuel right out is that you run the risk of melting the internals of your engine, particularly your pistons. It's happened to a friend's car... the water injection didn't kick in, but the computer had failed to compensate for this, so it ran lean while boosting aaaaaaand boom goes a piston. It's not something I'd like to use as an insurance failsafe.

Just be very wary of what you're doing.
Yeah tuning is key.

Just like he said. 100 whp on just meth injection alone is pushing it. That doesnt mean that is hasn't been done because it can happen. There are a bunch of things that you need to think about though:
1, The turbo should be capable of more boost. (some factory turbos cant make much more boost than what they were originally intended to produce)
2, Injector size when you start increasing boost you need to compensate with increasing the fuel injector capacity
3, TUNING. Probably the most important out of everything I've said. But if your car does not have the capability of doing the first two... you're pretty much out of luck.

Make sure you bring it to someone who knows how to tune. These people are very few and far between. Tuning is an art in itself there's more to it than maintaining a/f ratios and leaning out the a/f.

I still stand by what I said. Meth/water injection DOES NOT replace built internals. Meth/water injection is a great addition if your car would benefit from it but you need to carefully analyze if your will in fact benefit from this. But just like any other mod. When you start making additions in order to make your car run properly you're adding on the extra risk of having something fail.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:52 PM   #15
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this is probably a dumb question and not in the right thread but considering that internals may blow, would a MAP sensor be able to tell if water/methanol mix is flowing through or does it only detect air? For that matter, do you have to convert to a MAP set up or can you just tune with MAF's and cross your fingers and hope the water doesnt fail
there are many failsafe devices available to detect flow of methanol, these can be used to trigger numerous devices , the best safety device is the driver of the car .

If your car is tuned to run at 11.5:1 AFR and you see that all of a sudden it goes lean - wether you are running methanol or not , you should be looking into things (and NOT boosting) - YES methanol is a fuel , and adding it will richen your AFR , just as adding gas would , the difference is you are adding a fuel with a way highter octane and latent heat of evaporation ( this means it will cool your combustion chamber) and in turn will cool your entire engine down.

The big hint here is every turbo car should have a wideband AFR meter

here are some very good links:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fl...eat-d_147.html

This is one of the best reads on water/meth injection:

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

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Old 01-06-2009, 09:50 AM   #16
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I was reading this 350z owners install of some water injection kit...

http://my350z.com/forum/engine-drive...tall-350z.html

... and I noticed he only gained 20hp. I've read from a magazine that with proper tuning, gains of nearly 100hp is possible. Do you guys think he gained power without tuning timing at all?
The car that gained 100hp was it an evo?
if so i read that article as well.

The tuning was advanced slightly, Boost was increased as well. which is why it made 100hp.

The don't think just water/meth alone would gain that much.
If that were the case, you'd just be increasing the octane rating right?
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:25 PM   #17
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The don't think just water/meth alone would gain that much.
If that were the case, you'd just be increasing the octane rating right?
Yup. And by doing so, you need to adjust the timing and play with a/f ratios in order to take advantage of the higher octane. So, no, in order to obtain 100hp from water/meth injection, you need to do more than simply drill and tap a nozzle into your system.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:18 PM   #18
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ok, i get the methanol part, but i dont get the water part?

so u inject the water/meth to lower the temp at the same time, raise the octane levels to avoid any possible pinging if u run higher boost

but isnt water bad? isnt that the definition of hydrolock?
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:02 PM   #19
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but isnt water bad? isnt that the definition of hydrolock?
Driving through a huge puddle which will result in huge water droplets to enter the cylinder. That's when you get hydrolock. That's why when you take off the plugs and turn the crank water will shoot out.

Water droplets that are not atomized via a nozzle of some sort is bad. However, meth/water injection kits come with nozzles which atomizes the water molecules. Water does a couple of things. When atomized it decreased the intake temperatures when it hits the cylinder it becomes 'steam' which acts as a buffer slowing down the combustion process. Im going to refer to Lomac's previous post:




http://www.se-r.net/about/200sx/scc/...injection.html
This is a good read if you want to know more about water/meth injection.

Water = H2O. Two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen. When broken down with heat (from combustion) neither is hurtful to an engine.
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Water/Meth is a fools way of tuning a car IMO. Your relying on something that has so many parts that can fail and when it fails your almost sure to blow your motor because your running it past the point of no return at levels it would not normally run at.

Water/Meth is a bandaid solution for a weak tune. If your having heatsoak and your intake temps are to high you have other issues and "fixing" it with water/meth is only going to hurt you in the long run. Sure if your ONLY going to use it at the track it is a "viable" option but I see guys running this on the streets and I shake my head.

If you want more power and you NEED water/meth to get it, you should just do what needs to be done without the meth. Upgrade your turbo, or intercooler or whatever other weak link you have in the turbo system.

Caketech: Motors are known to fail at certain POWER LEVELS. ie. my last 2 motors have failed at the exact way they are known to fail at certain power levels. My B16 ringlands broke and my LS rod bolts broke. It was not due to the amount of boost I was running because each turbo will need a different amount of boost to make a certain amount of power. Using a 35R at 7lbs is like running a T25@15lbs. However the T25 will start to push hot air after 15lbs and be useless. THAT is when guys throw the water/meth on to cool down the intake temp. All they have to do is upgrade the turbo and it will be more powerful and more reliable.

Berz out.
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:17 AM   #21
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SG! Hydrolock occurs when the cylinders suck in enough water that the motor tried to compress that water. Water doesn't compress like air does. You would have to have enough water in the cylinder that when it tries to compress the water it can't. That is whey when motor's hydrolock they DON'T turn over at all. The motor basically just locks in place. When a motor does this think of all the momentum the car is carrying and the wheels are rotating trying to turn the the crank and then you have this stubborn piston full of water fighting that momentum. That's why Hydrolock is almost always fatal to a motor. To many forces at work being stopped suddenly by non compressing water.

Berz out.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:47 PM   #22
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Water/Meth is a fools way of tuning a car IMO. Your relying on something that has so many parts that can fail and when it fails your almost sure to blow your motor because your running it past the point of no return at levels it would not normally run at.

Water/Meth is a bandaid solution for a weak tune. If your having heatsoak and your intake temps are to high you have other issues and "fixing" it with water/meth is only going to hurt you in the long run. Sure if your ONLY going to use it at the track it is a "viable" option but I see guys running this on the streets and I shake my head.

If you want more power and you NEED water/meth to get it, you should just do what needs to be done without the meth. Upgrade your turbo, or intercooler or whatever other weak link you have in the turbo system.

Caketech: Motors are known to fail at certain POWER LEVELS. ie. my last 2 motors have failed at the exact way they are known to fail at certain power levels. My B16 ringlands broke and my LS rod bolts broke. It was not due to the amount of boost I was running because each turbo will need a different amount of boost to make a certain amount of power. Using a 35R at 7lbs is like running a T25@15lbs. However the T25 will start to push hot air after 15lbs and be useless. THAT is when guys throw the water/meth on to cool down the intake temp. All they have to do is upgrade the turbo and it will be more powerful and more reliable.

Berz out.
You are 100% entitled to your opinion , I see his as the same debate s N/A vs. forced induction ,some love it , some hate it. I think that if methanol injection was as flawed as you say , there would not be anywhere near as many companies selling it , BIG companies , like AEM . The simple and plain fact is , methanol injection DOES EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS . How many people out there have bought products in the past that claim this and that , and don't deliver ?
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:30 AM   #23
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We've had a lot of amazing results with meth injection.

With proper fail-safes meth injection is very effective. To use meth injection properly and safely, you'll need an electronic boost controller to cut down your boost or a standalone ems to lower your boost, timing, and add fuel when the methanol system fails. You can even run a seperate fuel rail for the meth and control it using secondary injector control. Doing meth injection with manual boost controller and an ecu without any additional input will not save your engine when it fails, not the best idea.

On some vehicles with large turbos we've been able to safely increase power output to 200hp over pumpgas alone. Some of our vehicles and customers vehicles are running 30psi of boost on pumpgas and are daily driven. I wouldn't say that it is better then race gas, but it's a lot cheaper then filling your tank with C16 all the time and it adds a safety net to cars running higher boost near the knock threshold with pumpgas.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:55 PM   #24
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OK , finally someone else with some concrete evidence that meth works , it does work . It will only gain popularity as more people find out.

Thanks Racing Guido!
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:08 PM   #25
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OK , finally someone else with some concrete evidence that meth works , it does work . It will only gain popularity as more people find out.

Thanks Racing Guido!
Seriously no one said it doesn't work.
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