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Police Forum Police Head Mod: Skidmark
Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 11-01-2008, 03:22 AM   #1
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Unauthorized illimination of Fog Lamp

Tonight I was driving to richmond from west vancouver. It was raining very hard in the downtown area and got a little bit foggy and was still raining when I was going through vancouver, so i had my fog lights on (stock yellow fogs). By the time i got off oak st bridge and got onto garden city, I got pulled over by a cop. He ask me if i know what i did wrong and I said no, since I actually did had no clue why I was pulled over since I wasnt speeding nor doing anything else wrong. He replies by saying i cant have my fogs on because its not foggy here in richmond. I replied by saying it was raining so I turned it on for better visability. He goes back to his vehicle for about a good 15 minutes then comes back saying sorry, you can have your fog lights on if its raining hard, BUT its not raining now and issued me a ticket, section 4.02(1) MVA- unauthorized illumination of fog lamp for $81

Honestly, I didnt really thought about the rain when i turned onto garden city because there was still a lot of mist spraying from the car infront, so i was still using my wipers.

So my question is, can I dispute the ticket? Will the judge lower the price of the ticket in this situation if I dispute the fine?
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Last edited by KayC; 11-01-2008 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 11-01-2008, 09:01 AM   #2
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General lighting requirements

4.02 (1) A vehicle on a highway must only be equipped with and use lamps, reflectors or other illuminating devices authorized by this Division or authorized in writing by the director.

Fog lamps are authorized by this Division:

Fog lamps

4.11 (1) A motor vehicle may be equipped with 2 fog lamps, mounted on the front of the vehicle below the headlamps, that are capable of displaying only white or amber light.

(2) Each fog lamp must be

(a) mounted not more than 30 cm below the headlamps, and

(b) adjusted and aimed so that, at a distance of 8 m from the lamp, the centre of the beam is at least 10 cm below the height of the fog lamp.

(3) The fog lamp wiring and switch must permit simultaneous operation of the parking lamps, tail lamps, licence plate lamp and, if required, clearance lamps.

(4) The operator of a vehicle may use fog lamps instead of headlamps when atmospheric conditions make the use of headlamps disadvantageous.

So, if you have proper fog lamps, they were installed correctly and your headlights were on, you were doing nothing wrong.
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Old 11-01-2008, 09:25 AM   #3
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This is an actual case for dispute. Get the weather report for that area at the time the ticket was given. Also, get the notes from the cop (freedom of information act) by sending them a letter w/ your case file on it. Verify the time written on the ticket w/ the weather info from whatever RESPECTABLE source and you should have a case.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:43 AM   #4
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The other option is to contact the supervisor and ask that the ticket be cancelled...

This would require much less of your time.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:44 AM   #5
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Also, get the notes from the cop (freedom of information act).
No, it is not, it is known as disclosure and has nothing to do with that Act.
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Old 11-01-2008, 02:11 PM   #6
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any ticket you can ask for full disclosure before a dispute...

Wow... that officer was pulling at straws...

Considering that some cars use fogs as daytime running lights... I wonder if this officers wife kicked him out the night before ... When the ticket is dismissed... file a complaint with his detatchment as well!
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Old 11-01-2008, 03:55 PM   #7
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Other states & provinces restrict the use of foglamps only when it's foggy. It's possible the officer might have been a transfer from another province, or misunderstood the regulation. Either way, you should contact the supervisor directly to have it cancelled and/or notify the officer of their error so they don't repeat it, since it's a blatant error that shouldn't tie up our court system.
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
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I wonder if this officers wife kicked him out the night before ... When the ticket is dismissed... file a complaint with his detatchment as well!
For what? Issuing a ticket that a trained professional believed to be correct? You sound like a bitter teenager who keeps getting busted for his indiscretions.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:01 PM   #9
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You know what, I agree with the cop. I, as does the cop, think that overusing the fog lights in necessary situations will lead to world war 3 so hence unless people REALLY REALLY REALLY need to use the fog lights, they shouldn't. Just "REALLY REALLY" needing to use fog lights to avoid accidents is just inexcusable and out of the question. Shame on you OP for trying to prevent accidents in poor conditions by improving your visibility without affecting anyone else.

And next time it's very foggy or you're up at SFU, think twice before you try to improve your visibility otherwise if you keep turning on your fog lights in these necessary situations, you might just cause world war and mass murder.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:20 PM   #10
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For what? Issuing a ticket that a trained professional believed to be correct? You sound like a bitter teenager who keeps getting busted for his indiscretions.
Actually... a trained professional would not have issued a ticket for something that was in fact LEGAL...

I was more making light of the humerous nature of this situation... there are too many officers who AREN'T familiar with the MVA and threaten to or issue tickets... For example an officer telling me that my vehicle was too low... or another officer trying to say that windows tinted from the factory were in fact illegal (even though there is an exemption in the MVA)

So again... if he was PROPERLY trained... he would not have issued the ticket...
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Actually... a trained professional would not have issued a ticket for something that was in fact LEGAL...

I was more making light of the humerous nature of this situation... there are too many officers who AREN'T familiar with the MVA and threaten to or issue tickets... For example an officer telling me that my vehicle was too low... or another officer trying to say that windows tinted from the factory were in fact illegal (even though there is an exemption in the MVA)

So again... if he was PROPERLY trained... he would not have issued the ticket...
As difficult this may be to comprehend, but not everyone is perfect.

Trained professionals are still bound to make mistakes (like everyone else) despite their training.
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:30 AM   #12
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In Newfoundland when I worked there the Highway Traffic Act said that foglights had to be used in "substitution " for headlights. In other words, it had to be too foggy to use your headlights. Here in BC, as you have seen above, there is no such requirement that I am aware of IF the lights are fully legal as Skidmark has indicated above.

What really bothers me is vehicles using their "fog lights" when there is no need at all. They are actually driving lights but because they only go on with the low beams, NOT high beams, as "legal" driving lights are required to do, they must be fog lights. ( (3) An auxiliary driving lamp must operate so that it is illuminated only when the upper beam of a multiple beam headlamp is illuminated.)
These are the way they come wired by the factory. As someone who drives an Import car it makes me want to grab a hammer and smash them when they are used for bling , they blind other traffic, and there is no real need to have them on...oncoming or following me. You guys feel the same?

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Old 11-02-2008, 11:54 AM   #13
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foglights are aimed at the ground, and do not blind oncoming traffic.

forget about foglights, and focus on the idiots driving around with high-beams on all the time.
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:58 AM   #14
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^Fog lights, by definition and design, are low-mounted (as low as practical/legal), so as to not reflect back in the driver's face; wide-beam (as opposed to long-throw) to put as much light onto the immediate road and road lines and not "waste" the light trying to penetrate too far into the fog; and amber-colored, to further reduce reflection and the "white-out" effect.

If these criteria are met, they shouldn't be affecting other drivers at all, and thus it really shouldn't matter if they're on all the time, with high- or low-beams, or not.

If they're aimed high enough and have a tight enough beam that they're annoying other drivers, they really aren't FOG lights to begin with.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:25 PM   #15
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In short,
most, if not all cars equipped with factory built-in fog lamps ( if not later moddifed ) is legal ??

Have you notice that the 2007+ ACURA MDX in stock form always have its lower front bumper lights as its daytime running light which is not obeying the regulation?? [ (a) mounted not more than 30 cm below the headlamps ]

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Old 11-02-2008, 02:05 PM   #16
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foglights are aimed at the ground, and do not blind oncoming traffic.
That is not true. Search should find you the aiming requirements.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:18 PM   #17
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"If they're aimed high enough and have a tight enough beam that they're annoying other drivers, they really aren't FOG lights to begin with."

That is exactly my point. The cars are sold with these as "fog lights" but they actually function as driving lights...however, driving lights are only permitted to go on with the high beams, these go on with the low beams, therefore by definition of the Regs, they have to be considered either fog lights or illegally factory installed driving lights. Either way they end up blinding other cars because their owners would rather be cool than considerate. Ever try flipping your high beams at them? They turn the highs at you and go right back to the lows with the "foglights" again. PITA ! Ever have a Ford pickup follow you...or a Dodge pickup drive towards you? You know what I mean.

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Old 11-02-2008, 04:58 PM   #18
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Ever have a Ford pickup follow you...or a Dodge pickup drive towards you? You know what I mean.
Getting into that area, my biggest problem are the guys jacking up their trucks and not re-adjusting their headlight aim so even the low beams are constantly in my face.
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Old 11-03-2008, 02:15 PM   #19
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also I belive that zulutango is complaining about those who decide they want to put HID bulbs into their reflector housing fog lights... this also creates a lovely blinding effect...

I know that my fogs are in a projector housing so there is a defined cutoff for the light therefore eliminating that blinding effect caused by fog lights... Why is it a difficult concept that putting HID's in a reflector housing whether it be headlights or foglights is blinding... looks bad and dangerous....

And the jacked up trucks... geez even the Escalades that don't have the proper lights (american spec lighting is different than canadian) are blinding... hits right at the wrong spot to completely blind you...
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Old 11-03-2008, 02:48 PM   #20
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Do you cops in fact ticket people for having HIDs into their halogen housings?

From the amount of cars I see that drive around like this blinding everybody, it's like no one ever gets caught for it.

Give me some peace of mind knowing these jerks get what they deserve.
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Old 11-03-2008, 02:51 PM   #21
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Phone them in. Get the plate and report them.
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
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1: foglights are aimed at the ground, and do not blind oncoming traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
2: That is not true. Search should find you the aiming requirements.
Huh? I think you are confused, skidmark.

Here is a link to PIAA.com's recommended foglight aiming instructions, which are taken from the SAE J583 standard.

You can clearly see that foglights are aimed at the ground.

http://www.piaa.com/Lamps/LightAimingGuide.html

Last edited by Rich Sandor; 11-03-2008 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:06 PM   #23
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OK, semantics, they tell you to aim the lights, but they don't tell you to aim them at the ground.
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:28 PM   #24
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The point is, they are aimed at the ground, and police should not be wasting time and energy harrassing people who have them on.

People running with HIGHBEAMS on are a different story.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:19 AM   #25
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Do you cops in fact ticket people for having HIDs into their halogen housings?

From the amount of cars I see that drive around like this blinding everybody, it's like no one ever gets caught for it.

Give me some peace of mind knowing these jerks get what they deserve.

I have wondered this as well... it has to be the most obvious illegal mod and there are a lot of cars that are doing it... on any given day I will see at least a dozen plus cars that have this...

This is actually dangerous unlike some other esthetic mods that are persecuted... ahem...
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