GM Doesn't have enough cash to make it through a few months

[Fastam]

Originally Posted by Great68

OEM parts are higher quality than the Lordco/Napa brands and worth it.

Example:

1997 GMC Sonoma Pickup

OEM Catalytic Converter: $700
Napa Catalytic Converter: $250

OEM Converter lasts: 8-10 years
Napa Converter lasts: 2-3 years

Napa converter also has a bracket in an incorrect position, making installation difficult. I'll gladfully pay for the OEM part.

Not to get too far off topic. However as somone who has worked in both dealerships and aftermarket parts stores. In general the quality is pretty much the same. the "OE" and "Aftermarket" parts are often from the same supplier. You see GM ,Ford,Toytoa ,Honda etc do not make parts, they all come from suppliers.

Yes there is cheap product lines made in China, but you can get the same quality as an OE part for cheaper at an Aftermarket store.

[jeffh]

Originally Posted by Black SC2

And what, precisely, do you think some "azns" would accomplish? Would they be better than, say, the heads of the big three's European branches? You know, the guys who work with the brands, and manage to turn a profit? The odds of asian businessmen taking over Ford, GM, Chrysler etc. are about as good as me eating a 5 gallon bucket of Rosie O'Donnell's deep fried butt fur.

the jap exec's on avg work for %60 of what the US guys do, thats about the paycut that 2.5fearfactory is after, but the japos would actually stommach it and still be better managers overall. yes the euro's are still turning an ok profit, but we are talking about the big picture of the company no? and not a branch of it? the euro guys can sell a car for sure, but what happens if you ask them to market a fullsize pickup? think tundra and and the taco and how they are moving in on f150 and f250 sales. if i was making 20 mil a year and you asked me to make 10, i would laugh at you, retire early and still have a very comfortable retirement, freedom 40 anyone?

[sixthgear]

Originally Posted by jeffh

the jap exec's ... the japos

I guess it is too hard to type Japanese eh? If you think they would do better show them some respect and type out the country name properly.

[ostampflee]

I'm pretty sure Jeff just won the prize for having an even bigger ego than Tamas... I didn't think that was possible. Have we determined who can piss further yet?

At least Tamas has decent language skills and can make an argument.

[the_rickster]

Originally Posted by dustinb

And of course, no automotive company is going to risk buying them at this point, the way the financial situation is.

on the contrary: buy in a time of panic, sell in a time of greed. while it's true that some companies are hurting with this economic downturn, the companies that are doing well have an opportunity for major growth and development.

i know a few people who are salivating in this economy because they played it safe for the last ten years, paid off their mortgages, saved their money in government bonds and invested very little into the stock market. they will be the ones buying the forclosed homes and dirt cheap RVs... because they have liquid cash and can buy in a time of panic. it's the same thing for conservative corporations, but on a much larger scale.

Originally Posted by the_rickster

on the contrary: buy in a time of panic, sell in a time of greed. while it's true that some companies are hurting with this economic downturn, the companies that are doing well have an opportunity for major growth and development.

i know a few people who are salivating in this economy because they played it safe for the last ten years, paid off their mortgages, saved their money in government bonds and invested very little into the stock market. they will be the ones buying the forclosed homes and dirt cheap RVs... because they have liquid cash and can buy in a time of panic. it's the same thing for conservative corporations, but on a much larger scale.

Makes sense actually. If anything, this is a pretty exciting time.

[Black SC2]

Originally Posted by jeffh

the jap exec's on avg work for %60 of what the US guys do, thats about the paycut that 2.5fearfactory is after, but the japos would actually stommach it and still be better managers overall. yes the euro's are still turning an ok profit, but we are talking about the big picture of the company no? and not a branch of it? the euro guys can sell a car for sure, but what happens if you ask them to market a fullsize pickup? think tundra and and the taco and how they are moving in on f150 and f250 sales. if i was making 20 mil a year and you asked me to make 10, i would laugh at you, retire early and still have a very comfortable retirement, freedom 40 anyone?

So why did it take a Frenchman to turn Nissan around if the Japanese are so great at business? Bringing race into question when it comes to managerial skills is completely pointless. There are huge multinational corporations being headed by people from all over the world.

What I'm trying to say is that there are people already highly placed within the Big three NA brands that are more than capable of taking the reigns. To bring in outsiders would be less fruitful than promoting people from within, in my opinion.

[jeffh]

they have been doing it Horribly wrong for a long time, if they knew how to do it right, they would be no? the scarey part to me if they dont seem to know that they are doing it wrong.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by the_rickster

on the contrary: buy in a time of panic, sell in a time of greed. while it's true that some companies are hurting with this economic downturn, the companies that are doing well have an opportunity for major growth and development.

i know a few people who are salivating in this economy because they played it safe for the last ten years, paid off their mortgages, saved their money in government bonds and invested very little into the stock market. they will be the ones buying the forclosed homes and dirt cheap RVs... because they have liquid cash and can buy in a time of panic. it's the same thing for conservative corporations, but on a much larger scale.

bingo...basically what Harper was advocating a month or two ago...

[ostampflee]

If the Liberals are able to over throw the government, I'm finding a fascist, non-religious state to move too. At least they dont claim to be democratic and I can grease the paws of officials to get my way.

GM's worries are much less to do with the meh cars they build and more to do with their costs... the Japanese don't have that problem as they haven't been doing business in North America for 100 years... now, if someone can figure out how to get rid of the union problem, they'll make a killing in stock options which I believe is the only way to pay large corporate execs.

[aspect]

Honda, toyota etc don't seem to have a problem making money building their cars in today's north america though.

[Type R]

Wanna bet?

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...311269891/1078

This is only the beggining..

Originally Posted by Type R

Wanna bet?

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...311269891/1078

This is only the beggining..

Everyone is getting hurt by the financial meltdown, but you're comparing Toyota who was lowered from AAA to AA status, to GM and Ford who are both in "junk" status, and Chrysler who is almost "junk" status. That's quite the span. It takes a REALLY huge screw up to get to junk status. If Toyota didn't change anything and just went ahead as planned, it would probably be about 20-30 years before they hit junk status.

[Type R]

Toyota also isn't sitting dead center of the worst economic crisis in history. Toyota also doesn't deal with UAW, and Toyota is still feeling the ripples.. I agree, that the big 3 are far from perfect, but they also are being torn apart by powers out of their control. If the US wasn't going through the crisis it is, do you honestly think they'd be in trouble anyways? Saying this problem is 100% their own fault is a little short sited. Entire Countries are feeling the slowdown (even off this contenant). Is it their own fault as well that they are in economic desparity? Should the rest of the world turn their back?

I know i'm pushing the subject a little far, but i'm sick to death of the subject, as I hear about it every day at work. Point of fact is, GM is in shit in North America. I think bankruptcy is the best solution, and can the UAW workers. Unloading lines like Saab and Hummer is a great idea, and keep pushing over seas where markets are still in the green (China, India, Russia).

GM (in the last 5 years) has shown its potential, and just needs the time to implement it. It needs to run things cleaner and tighter, and it will be a force to be reconed with. Already it is battling the worlds best in intital build quality (buick vs lexus) as well as safety standings. Its capturing the worlds heart with builds like the Enclave, Malibu, Insignia, and Sierra/Silverado. It needs to trim the fat, stop cross-badging, and have specific distinct brands.

[CivicTypeRice]

New Camaro????????????

[projectcivic]

Originally Posted by Type R

Already it is battling the worlds best in intital build quality (buick vs lexus) as well as safety standings. Its capturing the worlds heart with builds like the Enclave, Malibu, Insignia, and Sierra/Silverado. It needs to trim the fat, stop cross-badging, and have specific distinct brands.

You sound like an infomercial (sp?)

Originally Posted by Type R

Toyota also isn't sitting dead center of the worst economic crisis in history. Toyota also doesn't deal with UAW, and Toyota is still feeling the ripples.. I agree, that the big 3 are far from perfect, but they also are being torn apart by powers out of their control. If the US wasn't going through the crisis it is, do you honestly think they'd be in trouble anyways? Saying this problem is 100% their own fault is a little short sited. Entire Countries are feeling the slowdown (even off this contenant). Is it their own fault as well that they are in economic desparity? Should the rest of the world turn their back?

I know i'm pushing the subject a little far, but i'm sick to death of the subject, as I hear about it every day at work. Point of fact is, GM is in shit in North America. I think bankruptcy is the best solution, and can the UAW workers. Unloading lines like Saab and Hummer is a great idea, and keep pushing over seas where markets are still in the green (China, India, Russia).

GM (in the last 5 years) has shown its potential, and just needs the time to implement it. It needs to run things cleaner and tighter, and it will be a force to be reconed with. Already it is battling the worlds best in intital build quality (buick vs lexus) as well as safety standings. Its capturing the worlds heart with builds like the Enclave, Malibu, Insignia, and Sierra/Silverado. It needs to trim the fat, stop cross-badging, and have specific distinct brands.

Listen, GM has been losing money WELL before this financial crisis. Their company has been on a slide since about the mid 1990s, and they have never recovered. Their stock status has been total shit for the past 2 years, which is well before this crisis, when everyone was in super happy go buy whatever mode. So your argument is crap.

Here's a good downward spiral timeline starting at 1984:
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...une/index.html

[OffroadZuki]

Type R: You have some good points (the UAW's negative effects on GM, for example), but you're not getting the big picture in others.

The economic crisis has been around for a few short weeks. GM has been showing signs of HUGE troubles for years. No, Toyota is not at the centre of the meltdown right now, but you forget about the Asian market crisis of '97 and the fact that a HUGE chunk of Toyota's vehicles are built in North America. They pulled through the '97 crisis just fine and that shit made what we're going through look like a walk in the park.

Finally, all the cars you've mentioned are gas-guzzlers by comparison to the best-selling cars on the market. Where is GM's Honda Fit? (Don't say, the Aveo, 'cuz I've driven both and the Aveo is a boring hunk of garbage, whereas the Fit is edgy and fun to drive). Where is GM's Civic Hybrid? Where's GM's Prius? Heck, does GM even have a non-SUV/truck hybrid? They've come a long way with cars like the Malibu, but they're still trailing their competitors (like the Accord). And this is all coming from a former GM fanatic.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by dustinb

Listen, GM has been losing money WELL before this financial crisis. Their company has been on a slide since about the mid 1990s, and they have never recovered. Their stock status has been total shit for the past 2 years, which is well before this crisis, when everyone was in super happy go buy whatever mode. So your argument is crap.

lol dammit you posted this while I was writing mine

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

lol dammit you posted this while I was writing mine

I try hard...

[Type R]

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

all the cars you've mentioned are gas-guzzlers by comparison to the best-selling cars on the market. Where is GM's Honda Fit? (Don't say, the Aveo, 'cuz I've driven both and the Aveo is a boring hunk of garbage, whereas the Fit is edgy and fun to drive). Where is GM's Civic Hybrid? Where's GM's Prius? Heck, does GM even have a non-SUV/truck hybrid? They've come a long way with cars like the Malibu, but they're still trailing their competitors (like the Accord). And this is all coming from a former GM fanatic.

Malibu Hybrid, Yukon Hybrid, Chevy Volt? Wheres the imports Hydrogen Technology, Fuel Cell Technology, or electric cars? Whats the point of spending 8k plus difference on a Prius, vs a Vibe, G5 or Corrola for that matter? If you are driving 20k a year, it will take more than 7 years of gas savings (based on $1.30+/lt) to pay for the Hybrid portion of your Prius (Guess what you have to replace at around that point). Its not economically Viable, its just bragging rights. The Malibu's 2-mode technology is thousands less. The Hybrid in the full size SUVs (while still a crutch) make far more sense, boosting city efficiency from 18mpg to 27 mpg, and when you are talking to the family of 5 who do sports, and pull a 6000lb boat, thats huge. And the 2-mode technology on the SUVs is still far cheaper than Toyota's Synergy Drive.

GM has a few production Hydrogen powered vehicles on the road already, which shows they are making an honest shot of it. Pretty tough thing to do, when there aren't many refueling stations available. GM is also producing a few engines which can run on 85% ethanol, which burns cleaner (Greener) than regular fuel, and is an alternative when fuel hits $2 a litre.

In a very short time, GM has pulled its focus away from trucks & suvs to small cars and cross-overs. Even the large cross overs (enclave/traverse/acadia) are outperforming its toyota & honda counterparts (pilot & highlander) for fuel economy (save the highlander highbrid) and are more functional (try sitting in the back row of the imports). You will see the big SUVs (escalade/yukon) shrink onto the same platform as their mates which will help GM meet CAFE restrictions. This year they launched the 1.6L ecotec, which albiet is aenimc (sp?) in power, pushes the aveo/G3 to 50mpg+ with its 5 speed. Which btw is safer than its toyota counterpart (yaris) and cheaper. There are presently small tdi motors in development in europe to be used here in upcoming models.

Hybrids are a consumer crutch, and don't make sense unless used in a commercial application. And to be quite honest, we are talking about a technology that is sold to less than 1% of new vehicle buyers. When it comes to GM and its current state, they are in a bad state of affairs, and i agree, they partially did it to themselves. However, I do believe in the changes that are on the horizon, and when they survive this storm, Toyota will be hard pressed to keep GM down. In this industry (as any) change is an expensive business, especially when you are changing the very foundation your business is built on.

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by Type R

Malibu Hybrid, Yukon Hybrid, Chevy Volt? Wheres the imports Hydrogen Technology, Fuel Cell Technology, or electric cars? Whats the point of spending 8k plus difference on a Prius, vs a Vibe, G5 or Corrola for that matter? If you are driving 20k a year, it will take more than 7 years of gas savings (based on $1.30+/lt) to pay for the Hybrid portion of your Prius (Guess what you have to replace at around that point). Its not economically Viable, its just bragging rights. The Malibu's 2-mode technology is thousands less. The Hybrid in the full size SUVs (while still a crutch) make far more sense, boosting city efficiency from 18mpg to 27 mpg, and when you are talking to the family of 5 who do sports, and pull a 6000lb boat, thats huge. And the 2-mode technology on the SUVs is still far cheaper than Toyota's Synergy Drive.

GM has a few production Hydrogen powered vehicles on the road already, which shows they are making an honest shot of it. Pretty tough thing to do, when there aren't many refueling stations available. GM is also producing a few engines which can run on 85% ethanol, which burns cleaner (Greener) than regular fuel, and is an alternative when fuel hits $2 a litre.

In a very short time, GM has pulled its focus away from trucks & suvs to small cars and cross-overs. Even the large cross overs (enclave/traverse/acadia) are outperforming its toyota & honda counterparts (pilot & highlander) for fuel economy (save the highlander highbrid) and are more functional (try sitting in the back row of the imports). You will see the big SUVs (escalade/yukon) shrink onto the same platform as their mates which will help GM meet CAFE restrictions. This year they launched the 1.6L ecotec, which albiet is aenimc (sp?) in power, pushes the aveo/G3 to 50mpg+ with its 5 speed. Which btw is safer than its toyota counterpart (yaris) and cheaper. There are presently small tdi motors in development in europe to be used here in upcoming models.

Hybrids are a consumer crutch, and don't make sense unless used in a commercial application. And to be quite honest, we are talking about a technology that is sold to less than 1% of new vehicle buyers. When it comes to GM and its current state, they are in a bad state of affairs, and i agree, they partially did it to themselves. However, I do believe in the changes that are on the horizon, and when they survive this storm, Toyota will be hard pressed to keep GM down. In this industry (as any) change is an expensive business, especially when you are changing the very foundation your business is built on.

Okay, I didn't know about the Malibu Hybrid...but the Yukon Hybrid is an SUV, I asked for NON-truck/SUV ones and you can't bring up the Volt, since it's not in production.

You're right...GM did have a good idea with the EV1...too bad they fucked it up. Also, it's not unusual for me to drive 1,000km in a day...I'd like to see a GM electric do that.

You're right...it would take 7 yrs to pay the diff between a Prius and a G5 if you drive 20k a year...HOWEVER, there are cheaper cars than the Prius (hybrid Civic) and some of us (like me) drive nearly 50K a year...all of the sudden, that difference pays for itself in 2 years. Not everyone in North America drives as little as most people on the Island.

Don't make sense unless used in a commercial application? A hybrid makes PERFECT sense for me and I'm not using it for commercial reasons. My g/f has an '07 Fit with 80K kms on it...not used for commercial purposes. No offence, but do your research before you speak for the whole world.

The only real positive you brought up I may agree on (simply because you seem to know more about it than I do) is GM's new SUVs/Xovers may be better than the imports. I dont' know, but you may be right.

HOWEVER, the way gas prices were (and where they're going if and when the economy recovers) means SUVs are a dumber and dumber thing.

The Aveo is a hunk of garbage. Yes, it's cheaper than a Fit/Yaris, but I've driven them all and you can't even compare them. Hell, I drove a Smart diesel and an Aveo back-to-back and I liked driving the Smart waaaaaaaaay better. Simply put, the Aveo is quite possibly the shittiest small car I've ever driven. It accelerates like a Sprint with a dropped cylinder, handles worse than a '78 Rabbit and is less pleasant to sit in than my '87 base-model VW Fox. (And to show that I'm not biased, the reason I drove it was because I was torn between getting a Fit and an Aveo...in the end I decided to drive the Zuk 'till it dies. But the Aveo is out).

The only place GM impresses me is their extensive line of affordable high-performance grocery-getters. The HHR SS turbo, the Cobalt SS turbo, the G6 GXP, etc....they're inexpensive and fun. Sadly, they're not for the masses.

The thing is, if I was in the market for a hopped-up little car, I'd most likely take the Cobalt SS over the Civic Si. But if I was in the market for a fuel-efficient grocery-getter, I'd get the Civic over the Cobalt. The Fit/Yaris over the Aveo, the Accord/Camry over the Malibu and so on. And, unfortunately for GM, that's where the big money is made.

You're COMPLETELY right about the hybrids being a small portion of the market. Problem is, they do wonders for a company's image. Like the Vette for Chevy. They don't make much money on it (in fact, IIRC, Chevy was losing $$ on every Vette they made for decades), but it's a rolling advertisement every time someone shows up in one. And so is a Prius or an Insight or a Hybrid Civic.

Another thing that's working against GM is the absolutely attrocious track record they built in the '80s and '90s. Sure they may be making SOME decent cars now, but they're harder to sell than Honda/Toyota who have been making great cars for DECADES.

You say GM's gonna kick Toyota's butt soon...I wouldn't be so sure. Hot on the heels of that bad '80s/90s image is what's happening now...it's only making other companies stronger right now and GM weaker...

[mr.slave]

let them die.

i bet 100% of the people in americas against barak obama and his supposed "socialist" policies are for the bail out..

and gm execs flyin in to washington in private jets beggin for cash from the government?
fuck off.

[Type R]

LOL Ok, i'm going to respond point by point were necessary.

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

Okay, I didn't know about the Malibu Hybrid...but the Yukon Hybrid is an SUV, I asked for NON-truck/SUV ones and you can't bring up the Volt, since it's not in production.

Volt lands within a year


You're right...GM did have a good idea with the EV1...too bad they fucked it up. Also, it's not unusual for me to drive 1,000km in a day...I'd like to see a GM electric do that.

do your research on the volt. it comes with a 1.1L engine that generates electricity, making it still, more efficient than a hybrid

You're right...it would take 7 yrs to pay the diff between a Prius and a G5 if you drive 20k a year...HOWEVER, there are cheaper cars than the Prius (hybrid Civic) and some of us (like me) drive nearly 50K a year...all of the sudden, that difference pays for itself in 2 years. Not everyone in North America drives as little as most people on the Island.

incorrect, the average motorist travels 15-20k per year (per vehicle), unless for commercial purposes. For someone like you, I would highly recommend the cost of a hybrid. But for the other 70%+ of consumers, it still doesn't make sense.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/report/anre2005/7D_e.htm

food for thought. That hybrid civic is around 26k, the hybrid prius is closer to 29k. based off 20k kms of driving, your annual fuel cost (energuide 2008) on the civic is $810/year and the prius is $820. A well appointed G5 will cost you under 19k (base model 13k) with an annual fuel cost of $1386. so let do the math based off of 40k per year.

yearly fuel cost for G5: $2772 (40k kms a year)
yearly fuel cost for civic: $1620 (40k kms a year)
savings per year of hybrid: $1152 (40k kms a year)

cost difference in vehicles (using a G5 SE) over 7k

Now, over 7 years, you are saving $8064 by driving your hybrid. But now its time to replace your batteries. I don't know the cost of this, but I know it isn't cheap. You could replace a whole ecotec engine cheaper than the batteries for your hybrid. So again you are still behind the 8 ball on this one.

Don't make sense unless used in a commercial application? A hybrid makes PERFECT sense for me and I'm not using it for commercial reasons. My g/f has an '07 Fit with 80K kms on it...not used for commercial purposes. No offence, but do your research before you speak for the whole world.

see above

The only real positive you brought up I may agree on (simply because you seem to know more about it than I do) is GM's new SUVs/Xovers may be better than the imports. I dont' know, but you may be right.

HOWEVER, the way gas prices were (and where they're going if and when the economy recovers) means SUVs are a dumber and dumber thing.

but still a necessary evil. 7-8 passenger vehicles aren't going anywhere soon. This is why the x-over was created to replace the SUV. Lighter weights, no frames, awd instead of 4x4, and small v6 engines all help with better fuel economy.

The Aveo is a hunk of garbage. Yes, it's cheaper than a Fit/Yaris, but I've driven them all and you can't even compare them. Hell, I drove a Smart diesel and an Aveo back-to-back and I liked driving the Smart waaaaaaaaay better. Simply put, the Aveo is quite possibly the shittiest small car I've ever driven. It accelerates like a Sprint with a dropped cylinder, handles worse than a '78 Rabbit and is less pleasant to sit in than my '87 base-model VW Fox. (And to show that I'm not biased, the reason I drove it was because I was torn between getting a Fit and an Aveo...in the end I decided to drive the Zuk 'till it dies. But the Aveo is out).

sounds like you were driving the previous generation aveo/wave. You should check out the ecotec powered rig. Its still no dynamo on the track, but still on par with the yaris for power and again, kicks its ass for safety. Not everyone is a road warrior, some people just want cheap reliable transportation, and columnists from local papers, as well as msn.com agree with me. 50mpg in a car thats covered by 5 year / 160000km powertrain warranty (and free roadside assistance) for a starting price of under 12k means alot to some people.

The only place GM impresses me is their extensive line of affordable high-performance grocery-getters. The HHR SS turbo, the Cobalt SS turbo, the G6 GXP, etc....they're inexpensive and fun. Sadly, they're not for the masses.

nope, but that cobalt ss still clears 40mpg and trounces the puny honda mwhahaha!! Kidding aside, you are right, they aren't for the masses. But even the SE models are selling extremely well. You can buy more car for less money (gm vs honda)

The thing is, if I was in the market for a hopped-up little car, I'd most likely take the Cobalt SS over the Civic Si. But if I was in the market for a fuel-efficient grocery-getter, I'd get the Civic over the Cobalt. The Fit/Yaris over the Aveo, the Accord/Camry over the Malibu and so on. And, unfortunately for GM, that's where the big money is made.

you are also under 30, and baby boomers own the market. Malibu, Cobalt/G5, and pretty much everything GM caters to that market. The magazines rated the Malibu higher than accord/camry last year, and this year its looking to be a split between malibu and accord.

You're COMPLETELY right about the hybrids being a small portion of the market. Problem is, they do wonders for a company's image. Like the Vette for Chevy. They don't make much money on it (in fact, IIRC, Chevy was losing $$ on every Vette they made for decades), but it's a rolling advertisement every time someone shows up in one. And so is a Prius or an Insight or a Hybrid Civic.

I suspect the Volt will follow in this train of thought too, but I think its definately a step in the right direction, just like the Prius & Ensight were in their day

Another thing that's working against GM is the absolutely attrocious track record they built in the '80s and '90s. Sure they may be making SOME decent cars now, but they're harder to sell than Honda/Toyota who have been making great cars for DECADES.

I will be the first to agree with this. But alot of people still lose sight of one thing. How many toyotas, hondas, and nissans are on the road older than 1980? how many of the big 3's vehicles are still running on the road? How hard is it to find parts for that 1980's Z. How hard is it to find parts for that 1980 Firebird? I had a 1990 sunbird traded in the other day with 418k on it, never costed the folks a dime above maitenance. There are countless commecial GM trucks with hundreds of thousands of kms on them too.

GM dropped the ball in the 90s for sure, hell, I hate pretty much 90% of their product for that period. However, i'm promoting today and tomorrow and I think thats a little more relevant at this point.


You say GM's gonna kick Toyota's butt soon...I wouldn't be so sure. Hot on the heels of that bad '80s/90s image is what's happening now...it's only making other companies stronger right now and GM weaker...

Who for the last several years, has consistently placing more than 5 cars in the top 10's of the year in most magazines? i'm talking, trucks, compacts, suvs, luxury, midsize? Who dethrowned Camry & Tundra? who outsted lexus (according to JD power & associates) best in intial build quality? You make it sound as if GM is at the bottom of the barrel, when its still in fact a close second to Toyota in sales.

If GM didn't start limiting its fleet sales to rental agencies, it probably still would be #1, but it did, and now Toyota has taken up GMs slack in that department, and their resale values are starting to show it (so are its recall numbers). You make great points, but you come off as extremely biased (mind you I might too, but a little research backs me up). I think GM has come a long way, and has a way to go.