GM Doesn't have enough cash to make it through a few months

[Corey Darling]

The Pontiac G5 is basically a Chevy Cobalt isn't it?

Just different tail lights.

[aspect]

I agree that the GTO and Vibe are pretty cool cars...definitely 2 of my fave domestics. I think it's pretty funny that they're both rebadged imports.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by Corey Darling

The Pontiac G5 is basically a Chevy Cobalt isn't it?

Just different tail lights.

Correct, G4's and G5's are to the Cobalt what the Sunfire was to the Cavalier.

[Type R]

G3 = Aveo = Swift
G5 = Cobalt = Astra (platform)
G6 = Malibu = Aura = Vectra (platform)
G8 = Commodore
Vibe = Matrix
Torrent = Equinox = Vue
Solstice = Sky = Opel GT

There presently isn't a single vehicle in Pontiacs lineup that can't be bought elsewhere. That aside, every one rebadges & creates cross-compatible platforms: Ford / Lincoln / Mercury, Nissan / Infiniti, Toyota / Lexus, Ford / Mazda, Lincoln / Jaguar, Jaguar / Aston Martin. GM just isn't as good at it I say drop Saturn, and start importing Opel. For Pontiac, can it unless bringing back Niche cars like the Firebird and GTO.

Originally Posted by Great68

Correct, G4's and G5's are to the Cobalt what the Sunfire was to the Cavalier.

I knew there had to be a connection there. That's where I've always though GM has screwed up, in offering essentially the same car under different names. Sure someone is probably going to come in and say "but the interior is nicer, blah blah", but honestly, I've been in sunfires and cavaliers, and they're the same freaking car (horrible). I'll assume through past performances that the G5 is pretty much the same as the cobalt, minus the SS version.

Getting to my point, I can understand GM wanting to reduce costs by basically producing the same car, but WHY not just sell the car through one brand? Offer a bunch of upgrade options, and then you don't have a ton of inventory of virtually the same car spread out of pontiac and chevy dealerships.

But I've also thought this about other dealerships. The Ford and Mazda thing is horrible...

Originally Posted by Type R

G3 = Aveo = Swift

It should be noted that that the Swift is not made by Suzuki, but is a carry overfrom Daewoo.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

Chris (I hope to god I have your name right, Type R) I am completely sincere when I say I really hope GM will one day be as good as you believe it has the potential to be. I think it's cool that you're passionate about the product you're selling, even if it leaves you a bit biased.

Here it goes:

How long does your cell phone battery keep its charge? First 6 months, it will run for 3 days on one charge.. as time wears on, the batteries efficiency drops. Throw in the extremes of Canadian seasons, and i'm pretty sure that would just amplify it.

The point I was trying to make is not that hybrids last a while (which they seem to be, when I was looking at used hybrid Civics/Insights/Priuses - remember, the original Prius has also been around since '00 or '01 - I don't recall a single one boasting about having new batteries). What I was saying is that even IF they crap out after 5 yrs, it doesn't matter, they warranty them for 8-10 yrs regardless of the mileage, if I remember correctly

The replacement motor sounds like a gas engine, not a small diesel now. Its quiter, smoother, turns sharper, and gets better economy than the old one. And we are still splitting hairs over an entry level car.

Yes, but entry-level cars are the bread and butter of a car company: Yaris, Fit, Civic, Corolla, need I say more? With that said, I've already admitted that my comments were for the '08s, and I'm planning on testing an '09 one of these days to see what they're like

People love power, that will never change. Make way for FI engines though. GM was actually testing the 2.0L SIDI Turbo engine in the new camaro FYI.

hope it's not as much of a flop as the 4-cyl Camaros of the '80s

Those weren't the 09s. The 2.4L S/C SS motor that was being used has been shelved this year. They are now using the 2.0L SIDI Ecotec Turbo which uses direct injection technology. More powerful & efficient design over the 2.4 setup.

Again, cool...but that still means that GM has JUST turned a corner and public perception will take a while to catch up

My family has owned a number of old Fords, Buicks, and a 79 Merc Grand Marquis which ran great. And when something went wrong, you weren't charged an arm & a leg to repair. I don't have specific numbers for this, so maybe i'm not 100% correct on this point. But judging from your track record with your vehicles, theres one common denominator there (driver maybe )

You missed the point. That's EXACTLY it...the common denominator IS the driver. Whether I baby my cars or beat the hell out of them is constant. What wasn't constant is how they took it. All my imports ran like a charm 'till the day I sold them, not something I could say about my GMs

Imports (especially old ones) cost way way too much to fix. What does a power window solenoid cost for a 94 Jetta? VW builds great motors, its the the rest of the electronics that cost a small fortune to fix. Honda I would say is by far the best for owning past 200k. There is very little electronics on most, so not much to go wrong, and the motors are easy to work on and get parts for.

I've never owned a GM that didn't need at least ONE power window switch fixed (sometimes all). Other than that, windshield washers were a novelty, cruise controls didn't work, etc, etc...the VWs/Zuki, on the other hand, have always had everything work just fine, aside from normal wear and tear stuff

I own a 2008 G5 GT full load (leather, roof, 6disc changer with XM) the only reason I regret buying it is because the new Cobalt SS came out a few months back (Tuurrrbooooooo). The car is a blast to drive, tonnes of torque, and its comfy as hell. Its not as good as a Civic Si, but almost, and it was thousands less. With a longer warranty, cheaper finance rates, it wasn't hard to make that decision. Not too mention its a more liveable car than the Civic.

Yeah, but if it's not as good a car as the Civic, and the Civic has a better track record of making it to 200K without a major problem than the GM, then it's not hard to see why people don't have a hard time justifying the few grand extra

LOL this is getting harder to do. But I will go point by point..

1. These batteries are good up until 10 years. We are just reaching that point in the next year and a bit (from 99 on) so its still tough to calculate costs. Even if we took the cost of replacement out and assumed they worked forever, the average person would not get their money back out of a hybrid. Also, what we also haven't touched on is the toxicity involved with these batteries.

2. Entry level cars never (until now) were the bread and butter of GM. Which is why its playing catchup now. I tip my hat to the effort, and how quickly GM is evolving these cars to become competitive.

3. Check out Rhys Millens Drift Solstice, that is the potential of the 2.0L Turbo.. Its a far cry of the 4pot Maros of yesteryear

4. Your response didn't make much sense to what we were getting at originally.

5. My Honda Civic suffered busted motor mounts, and an eroded shift linkage which led to wrecked synchro's. My Mustang before that never had an issue with powertrain whatsoever.

6. Don't get me started on VW.. Especially the City brand, or anything of theirs built in Mexico. Their late model vehicles had alot of issues with the power windows, and were very costly to repair (just out of warranty). And we had a couple of GTI's (pre 2k) with electrical issues that we ended up wholesaling at a loss. If your 90s GM power window broke, its a quick trip to the wrecker or even napa to get new parts and you won't break the bank doing it, which was my original point. Part to part, imports cost more to fix (majority of the time).

7. My G5 has a longer warranty (kms) than a civics, and is thousands less. Typically I keep my cars 5 years (which is when the warranty is up) so I don't see the point of shelling out thousands more for a name. Again, my 1st civic had issues before 100k, and the 1991 Civic I bought after needed a rebuild, new tranny, and misc parts with 232k on the odometer. Honda is far from perfect.

[Great68]

Zuki, funny you should mention VW's when they have one of the worst reputations around for electrical problems. Consumer Reports rates them lower than GM in their reliability indexes.

As far as domestics go, I have had both good and bad experiences with them. Here's a short list:

1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais: The old family car, and what I learned to drive on. This car was extremely reliable, the only problems it had were a dead alternator and dirty fuel injectors at somewhere over 200,000kms. Seriously, nothing else went wrong with that car. It lived to 250,000kms until it was written off in a crash.

1979 GMC 3/4 ton pickup: I miss this truck, it took the family on many trips hauling a camper and boat. My dad bought it from a contractor that used it as his work truck. All I remember my dad doing to it was regular maintenance, and replacing worn steering parts. When my parents sold it, it was at over 300,000kms on the original drivetrain. It's probably still on the road today.

1995 Pontiac Grand Am: My parents got this to replace the Olds. This is a horrible car. I call it the "Plastic Boat". Too many problems to list, mechanical and electrical alike. I tell my parents to get rid of it every time I have to sit in it.

1989 Chevy Astro: My dad's van after he sold the truck. Had a transmission and rear-end rebuild at around 250,000kms. Has problems with the sliding door rails, but probably due to the $4000 in side impact damage that happened to it a few years back.

1988 Ford Mustang 4cyl: The fiancee's car. A/C system stopped working. Needed new rad. Seat back frame broken ("Gangster Lean"). This car is horrible to drive, steering is so numb, everything rattles and squeaks. I haven't driven a 5.0 fox body, but if it's anything like this car I would rather pull all my hair out with tweezers.

My experience with imports:

1985 Audi 5000: (My 1st car) Fucking horrible car. Ze Germans should be ashamed. All 4 power windows were broken, sunroof didn't work, power seats would work intermittently, climate controls didn't work, Steering/brake hydraulic assist system was broken (step on brake, and loose power steering). Transmission failed (Due to diff seals leaking diff fluid into the tranny).
I did some research, and all these problems were common to these cars. Especially the tranny, it wasn't a question of if the diff seals would fail, but when.

1989 Toyota Celica: (My 2nd car) Broken sunroof, electrical problems (Shorts, grounds, etc), bad 2nd gear syncros, motor eventually blew a rod bearing. The car was fun to drive otherwise.

1988 Honda Prelude: Dad's alternate to the van. Timing belt jumped, killing cylinder head. Power antenna dead, leaky sunroof.

1985 Civic: My current beater. Starts and runs good every day (Runs a little rough in the cold, but it's carbed what do you expect). Drives as straight, and transmission shifts smooth as butter. But I'm starting to wonder when I'm going to loose the back half of the car due to the huge amounts of rust back there.

[OffroadZuki]

LOL this is getting harder to do. But I will go point by point..

haha...I know...but I'm just starting to get the hang of it

1. These batteries are good up until 10 years. We are just reaching that point in the next year and a bit (from 99 on) so its still tough to calculate costs. Even if we took the cost of replacement out and assumed they worked forever, the average person would not get their money back out of a hybrid. Also, what we also haven't touched on is the toxicity involved with these batteries.

yeah, the environmental impact of those batteries is definitely beyond the scope of this thread, and I have a feeling we may agree on that more than we disagree haha. However, you said in a previous post, after calculating it, that the average person would break even in something like 7 years...that's not never.

2. Entry level cars never (until now) were the bread and butter of GM.

And that's why they're in the situation they're in right now...

3. Check out Rhys Millens Drift Solstice, that is the potential of the 2.0L Turbo.. Its a far cry of the 4pot Maros of yesteryear

10 bucks says the Camaro's going to be heavier than the Solstice, which means the 2.0T is going to be a helluva lot less lively. Plus, you can't compare a heavy, production-based car to a light, purpose-built drift car

6. Don't get me started on VW.. Especially the City brand, or anything of theirs built in Mexico. Their late model vehicles had alot of issues with the power windows, and were very costly to repair (just out of warranty). And we had a couple of GTI's (pre 2k) with electrical issues that we ended up wholesaling at a loss. If your 90s GM power window broke, its a quick trip to the wrecker or even napa to get new parts and you won't break the bank doing it, which was my original point. Part to part, imports cost more to fix (majority of the time).

Well, I have no experience with the newer ones. All of my VWs were '87s and '88s. I was just speaking from experience. They all had between 250 and nearly FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND kms and ran like champs.

7. My G5 has a longer warranty (kms) than a civics, and is thousands less. Typically I keep my cars 5 years (which is when the warranty is up) so I don't see the point of shelling out thousands more for a name.

A lot of people buy cars for longer than just the duration of the warranty, in which case that few thousand initial investment is well worth the peace of mind. Plus, in the meantime, the cars I've compared the GMs have sadly placed dead last. So, that few thousand also pays for the driving enjoyment in the meantime.

[Fastam]

Originally Posted by Type R

G3 = Aveo = Swift
G5 = Cobalt = Astra (platform)
G6 = Malibu = Aura = Vectra (platform)
G8 = Commodore
Vibe = Matrix
Torrent = Equinox = Vue
Solstice = Sky = Opel GT

There presently isn't a single vehicle in Pontiacs lineup that can't be bought elsewhere. That aside, every one rebadges & creates cross-compatible platforms: Ford / Lincoln / Mercury, Nissan / Infiniti, Toyota / Lexus, Ford / Mazda, Lincoln / Jaguar, Jaguar / Aston Martin. GM just isn't as good at it I say drop Saturn, and start importing Opel. For Pontiac, can it unless bringing back Niche cars like the Firebird and GTO.

G8 is on the New Global Zeta platform which under pins the Commodore ,and GT. Its not a rebadge IMO as it was always intended to be a global platform.

There is no Opel GT right now , there was going to be a version of the Platform(Sky/Solstice) badged as a GT , but it was axed.

But yeah every company does the rebadge game , Nissan has like 3 car platforms covering many cars.



Back to reliability my grand am had 275 000km on it, before it died in a crash and the bottem end was still very solid it required only 2 major repairs in its life. Oil pump and head. Yeah those are expensive, but i drove the shit out of that car ,it should have had way more problems then it did.

My BMW has cost me far more in repairs in the 10 months that i've had it, vs the 8 years for my grand am.

[Type R]

I would suspect if GM were to drop a 2.0L in the Camaro, it would be massaged to 300hp. The Millen Solstice pushes 500 out of a 2.0L.

As for your VWs, I've seen many sunbirds and cavi's with over 300k. Neons too really, but i hate those thing lol.

Not quite sure about your last comment again. Talking about driving enjoyment? I enjoy my G5 far more than my Civic. Base G5 has far more power, and my GT would trounce my old Civic in both flat out performance, as well as handling and braking.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by Fastam

G8 is on the New Global Zeta platform which under pins the Commodore ,and GT. Its not a rebadge IMO as it was always intended to be a global platform.

There is no Opel GT right now , there was going to be a version of the Platform(Sky/Solstice) badged as a GT , but it was axed.

But yeah every company does the rebadge game , Nissan has like 3 car platforms covering many cars.



Back to reliability my grand am had 275 000km on it, before it died in a crash and the bottem end was still very solid it required only 2 major repairs in its life. Oil pump and head. Yeah those are expensive, but i drove the shit out of that car ,it should have had way more problems then it did.

My BMW has cost me far more in repairs in the 10 months that i've had it, vs the 8 years for my grand am.

The Sky is a rebadged GT. Has been around since at least 07

http://www.opel.ch/showroom/models.c...,01,14&lang=de

The Commodore and G8 are identical, except for fascia. About as different ass the Cobalt and G5. The G8 is built in Australia and shipped to North America.

[Fastam]

Holly crap! Last i heard GM shevled the idea!

[OffroadZuki]

I would suspect if GM were to drop a 2.0L in the Camaro, it would be massaged to 300hp. The Millen Solstice pushes 500 out of a 2.0L.

I'd like to see people get excited about a fatass Camaro being hurled around by a 2.0. GM should keep big engines in TWO cars...the Camaro and the Vette. I don't know why they're pushing for a stupid little engine in the Camaro (they'll simply scare away muscle-car enthusiasts and send them over to Chrysler to buy a Challenger). Put a freaking pushrod LSX in the Camaro and concentrate on putting little firecracker engines into the Cobalt, the Aveo, etc...

As for your VWs, I've seen many sunbirds and cavi's with over 300k. Neons too really, but i hate those thing lol.

Yes, but they'll need a LOT of love and cash to get that far... read the reviews...Neons will eat fuel pumps and head gaskets, Cavalosers will eat head gaskets and trannies...I know, I was looking at buying all those cars at one point or another

Not quite sure about your last comment again. Talking about driving enjoyment? I enjoy my G5 far more than my Civic. Base G5 has far more power, and my GT would trounce my old Civic in both flat out performance, as well as handling and braking.

Dude...you had a Civic CX or DX...the lowest of the low. A car designed for fuel efficiency. Now you have a G5 GT, a car that was meant to be a driver's car. That's nowhere even close to being a fair comparison...not to mention your Civic is now what...5? 7? years old? Compare your G5 GT to an '08 Civic Si if you want to be fair. The GT will get pwnt in every category except for initial cost.

[mr.slave]

Originally Posted by Great68

1985 Audi 5000: Steering/brake hydraulic assist system was broken (step on brake, and loose power steering).

hahahahaahah
thats hillarious.

like the chevette my buddy had.
when you would put the windshield wipers on the horn would go off (like off as in on you know make noise )

[ostampflee]

Well... I've I'm on my 4th GM product in just about 10 years... no idea how many KMs, but its been a few. I've beat the snot out every single one of 'em except for the Envoy (I fear death via wife, and I've only had it a couple days)...

Cavalier spun a bearing and tossed a rod less than 5 weeks after owning it.... previous abuse and/or accident damage? Only had 45k kms. The motor that replaced went strong until I built the bottle bomb Ecotec.

Highrider decided to spit a oil cooler hose out of the crimp... easy fix and its a rare but common thing.

The new Envoy makes anything in that price range look like weak sauce... sure it was a $45k? truck brand new, but only idiots buy brand new cars. We cant even buy the same model year Impreza for what I paid for it and my boss's 02 Outback is nowhere near as nice.

I'll be very sad to see the GMC brand go...

[OffroadZuki]

Originally Posted by ostampflee

Well... I've I'm on my 4th GM product in just about 10 years... no idea how many KMs, but its been a few. I've beat the snot out every single one of 'em except for the Envoy (I fear death via wife, and I've only had it a couple days)...

Cavalier spun a bearing and tossed a rod less than 5 weeks after owning it.... previous abuse and/or accident damage? Only had 45k kms. The motor that replaced went strong until I built the bottle bomb Ecotec.

Highrider decided to spit a oil cooler hose out of the crimp... easy fix and its a rare but common thing.

The new Envoy makes anything in that price range look like weak sauce... sure it was a $45k? truck brand new, but only idiots buy brand new cars. We cant even buy the same model year Impreza for what I paid for it and my boss's 02 Outback is nowhere near as nice.

I'll be very sad to see the GMC brand go...

"Only idiots buy brand new cars," gimme a fucking break.

I hope whoever considers buying that beat-up Highrider of yours reads this post and remembers the line about you beating the snot out of it...

As for the GMC brand dying? Who gives a crap? It's a useless brand nobody cares about. The last time they did anything interesting was the '91-93 Sy-Tys. Hell, technically speaking my truck is a GMC Sonoma and even I think it's a retarded and redundant brand.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by mr.slave

hahahahaahah
thats hillarious.

like the chevette my buddy had.
when you would put the windshield wipers on the horn would go off (like off as in on you know make noise )

It especially sucked in parking lots. You'd be going to turn in to your stall, hit the brake to slow down, and all of a sudden turning the wheel was hard to turn.

Chevettes... One of my buddies had a chevette. I remember driving it once, and when I turned on the headlights the car stalled out, WHILE we were moving at 80km/h. It was a great car for snow doughnuts, unfortunately when we were done the car blew a rod bearing.

[m1ataman]

It's been about 20 years since I last owned a GM vehicle and then it was only because it was CHEAP and temporary. I won't miss them one bit.

[gelatinous]

I've only owned a couple of domestics in my time..

1979 Plymouth Caravelle freaking boat! but it ran good, drove it for a year.. couldn't afford to feed the 5.2 so I sold it, never had a single problem

1976 Camaro 305 3spd. rusty as fuck, but it was from back east. Bought it off my grandfather who had replaced the tranny and exhaust when he bought it, not sure how many km's were on it though. motor ate some valve seals so it smoked like crazy, but I never had a problem with it.

1968 Dodge Dart, bought this car for $1000 2 years ago with 98xxx original miles on it. rear end doesn't sound too good, but I've never had a problem with the leaning tower of power.

other members of my family have owned numerous domestics and the only one that I recall having major issues was my aunts crapalier... it had no end of problems

[Type R]

Was watching CNN last night re: the bailout and they made a comment which surprised me. Apparently Japan & other world Gov'ts have been subsidising the import companies for years, and even state gov'ts have been helping out Toyota/Honda etc to get them to build in their states (create jobs). Sounds to me like these companies aren't playing in equal fields!

[Type R]

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki

I would suspect if GM were to drop a 2.0L in the Camaro, it would be massaged to 300hp. The Millen Solstice pushes 500 out of a 2.0L.

I'd like to see people get excited about a fatass Camaro being hurled around by a 2.0. GM should keep big engines in TWO cars...the Camaro and the Vette. I don't know why they're pushing for a stupid little engine in the Camaro (they'll simply scare away muscle-car enthusiasts and send them over to Chrysler to buy a Challenger). Put a freaking pushrod LSX in the Camaro and concentrate on putting little firecracker engines into the Cobalt, the Aveo, etc...

As for your VWs, I've seen many sunbirds and cavi's with over 300k. Neons too really, but i hate those thing lol.

Yes, but they'll need a LOT of love and cash to get that far... read the reviews...Neons will eat fuel pumps and head gaskets, Cavalosers will eat head gaskets and trannies...I know, I was looking at buying all those cars at one point or another

Not quite sure about your last comment again. Talking about driving enjoyment? I enjoy my G5 far more than my Civic. Base G5 has far more power, and my GT would trounce my old Civic in both flat out performance, as well as handling and braking.

Dude...you had a Civic CX or DX...the lowest of the low. A car designed for fuel efficiency. Now you have a G5 GT, a car that was meant to be a driver's car. That's nowhere even close to being a fair comparison...not to mention your Civic is now what...5? 7? years old? Compare your G5 GT to an '08 Civic Si if you want to be fair. The GT will get pwnt in every category except for initial cost.

1. Which is why the base engine is going to be the 3.6L Direct Injection setup found the in the new CTS. It was looked at as an option.

2. Check the buy & sell of RS alone, and have a look at how many hondas are running on rebuilds.

3. I did the math on G5 vs Civic. Yes the Civic won in most categories.. But marginally, definately didn't "pwn" the G5. And still wasn't enough to justify the price difference to me. And the cool thing about driving Ecotecs vs K or D-series motors.. TORQUE BABY

[OffroadZuki]

1. Which is why the base engine is going to be the 3.6L Direct Injection setup found the in the new CTS. It was looked at as an option.

Maybe you should have mentioned that little bit of information when you boasted a few pages back about GM testing the 2.0T in the Camaro...

2. Check the buy & sell of RS alone, and have a look at how many hondas are running on rebuilds.

Yeah, because ppl on RS are known for treating their vehicles well...that's not really a representative sample

3. I did the math on G5 vs Civic. Yes the Civic won in most categories.. But marginally, definately didn't "pwn" the G5. And still wasn't enough to justify the price difference to me. And the cool thing about driving Ecotecs vs K or D-series motors.. TORQUE BABY

To you, it wasn't. To a lot, it is. And, with all due respect, I'll take my advice from reviewers, not a salesman/fanboi

http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2007/0...-civic-si.html


Funny but true:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...-coupe-review/

I don't think this makes ppl jump into a G5 either..

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._test/(page)/1

Poor little Pontiac...nobody loves it...

http://www.houstoncars.org/2007-pontiac-g5-review.php

k...last one.

http://www.edmunds.com/pontiac/g5/2007/review.html

BTW, I didn't filter what I posted...just whatever relevant I found...somehow, you were the only one who's suggested buying a G5 GT over a Civic Si.

[aspect]

Originally Posted by Type R

Was watching CNN last night re: the bailout and they made a comment which surprised me. Apparently Japan & other world Gov'ts have been subsidising the import companies for years, and even state gov'ts have been helping out Toyota/Honda etc to get them to build in their states (create jobs). Sounds to me like these companies aren't playing in equal fields!

The japanese goverment has been heavily supporting their domestic industries for like 30 years. It's one of the hallmarks of the japanese economy and why japan was able to build such a powerful manufacturing sector out of complete rubble after WW2.

Originally Posted by Type R

Was watching CNN last night re: the bailout and they made a comment which surprised me. Apparently Japan & other world Gov'ts have been subsidising the import companies for years, and even state gov'ts have been helping out Toyota/Honda etc to get them to build in their states (create jobs). Sounds to me like these companies aren't playing in equal fields!

That's not news at all. Been going on since pre WW2. But come on, the North American markets are given gifts all the time. Look at the 25 Billion dollar money that is going to be given to the big three to help them develop more environmentally friendly cars. Wtf is that? It all comes down to the fact that Japan had a way better business model then North America did/does, and the US fucked it all up when they forced Japan to mess with their currency.