Interesting stuff on Crime

[urrh]

Originally Posted by shiningb3b3

no matter how poor you are, you should not commit to crime to get through your problems, PERIOD.

yea easy enough to say. but desperate is desperate

[zulutango]

"A lot of research has indicate that Poverty is the main cause of crime.: So how do you explain any white collar crime then? How about all the over-indulged rich kids with their Bimmers and Mercs who terrorize North Van ?
If poverty is so corrupting that it turns people into criminals without their being able to stop it...why then is not every single person living below the "poverty level" a criminal? I have met many "poor" people who never have, nor ever would, turn to crime. It has nothing to do with environment and everything to do with personal accountability. If you have poverty to blame then you never have to accept responsibility for your actions.

[Bouncing Bettys]

Originally Posted by johny

I didn't say longer sentences. I said permanent ones. these "poverty" criminals have no use in this world. they won't be winning Nobel prizes, or curing cancer. the best case is they will get shitty jobs, taking job chances away from people who don't have criminal records who are more deserving of a job.

[welfare]

Originally Posted by johny

I didn't say longer sentences. I said permanent ones. these "poverty" criminals have no use in this world. they won't be winning Nobel prizes, or curing cancer. the best case is they will get shitty jobs, taking job chances away from people who don't have criminal records who are more deserving of a job.

you really put your foot in your mouth with this one. these are human beings. remove the poverty from the equation and bring them up in a household as fortunate as yours may have been, and who knows? maybe some of those kids could win a nobel prize. your counteraction is one of hate breeding hate, and it's light years away from the answer.
do you even realize what it's like for at least 80% of these inner-city youth in the states?
mom's a crackhead/ doesn't care
no money for food
clothes dirty and stink like shit
kids at school making fun of them constantly
people coming up through criminal activity is what they're surrounded by
kid takes up a bit of a life of crime to get what he needs
someone else wants to take his shit now
kid defends himself
now he's going away for murder for the rest of his life
that's how easily one of these kids' life is thrown away
and most of this will happen pre-teen

[The_AK]

Originally Posted by shiningb3b3

no matter how poor you are, you should not commit to crime to get through your problems, PERIOD.

yes,
but obviously this is the problem which a lot of americans cannot get through their heads which must be addressed.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by zulutango

"A lot of research has indicate that Poverty is the main cause of crime.: So how do you explain any white collar crime then? How about all the over-indulged rich kids with their Bimmers and Mercs who terrorize North Van ?
If poverty is so corrupting that it turns people into criminals without their being able to stop it...why then is not every single person living below the "poverty level" a criminal? I have met many "poor" people who never have, nor ever would, turn to crime. It has nothing to do with environment and everything to do with personal accountability. If you have poverty to blame then you never have to accept responsibility for your actions.

Sorry if it's not clear, but what I meant is that the majority of crimes are caused by poverty. Not all crimes. Ex, Like one rich guy hates another rich guy and kills him, of course thats not cuased by poverty. There are endless reasons why people cause crimes.

I agree with you that people need to be accountable for their actions, and by know means am I trying to defend criminals, but if you're born in a bad environment, there is a higher probability you're going to end up doing some bad. It's a lot easier for someone to grow up with their parents giving them birthday and christmas presents/parties to turn out well then a kid that lives in a poor family, who never eats out, doesn't get anything for thier birthday, christmas because they need their money for basic food. There are kids that are born into a home that can't afford internet and digital cable.

And it's people that think these poor kids deserve to die and wont do anything special with their lives that makes the problem worst.

[johny]

Originally Posted by welfare

you really put your foot in your mouth with this one. these are human beings. remove the poverty from the equation and bring them up in a household as fortunate as yours may have been, and who knows? maybe some of those kids could win a nobel prize. your counteraction is one of hate breeding hate, and it's light years away from the answer.
do you even realize what it's like for at least 80% of these inner-city youth in the states?
mom's a crackhead/ doesn't care
no money for food
clothes dirty and stink like shit
kids at school making fun of them constantly
people coming up through criminal activity is what they're surrounded by
kid takes up a bit of a life of crime to get what he needs
someone else wants to take his shit now
kid defends himself
now he's going away for murder for the rest of his life
that's how easily one of these kids' life is thrown away
and most of this will happen pre-teen

if the crack head mom was locked away, she woudln't have had a kid. crime and poverty problem solved with one answer.

[mr_chin]

The law defines too many actions to be a crime. Crime should be anything that involves assaults (physically and sexually), theft, and murders (manslaughter sentence should be lighter depending on the situation).

Drug smuggling, drug dealing, etc. should be considered against the law and should be treated very very lightly. It doesn't necessary harm anyone, people who take drugs are taking at their will, they messed up in life and now that is the way they want to choose to live.

Criminals in prisons and jail gets treated respectfully. They get food served to them for free, they get a bed, they get to sit a lunch room filled with other prisoners for them to take the opportunity to commit more crime by fighting for each other's food. Communications with other prisoner only leads to two things, war or cooperation to induce war on each other.

Criminals in prison should be given jobs to earn their food, their room to sleep in, and should be kept away from other prisoners as well (somehow). If they want three meals a day, give them a task to complete, such as sweeping the floor, wiping tables, washing dishes, and be surveillance at all time plus a review must be given at the end of their task to see if they qualify for their rewards. When they do, they are sent to a cell only by themself and food is delivered to their cell until they are finished then they will be let out for the night until bedtime which they are sent to a cell with bed to sleep. This will not only make it hard for the prisoner and what it's like to be in prison, but will force them to adapt a life that they must work for what they want and not steal and kill for it.

It's a shame to see the institution in Vancouver are so chilling. They get food, they get video games, smokes, marijuana and other drugs smuggled in somehow for 10 hours a day in a room with their friends play cards and what not. If they offend the rules, they are sent to 23 hour lockdown.

A person pleading guilty should not be sentenced lighter because they know their wrongs, but should be sent to a facility that has less strict rules, like no jobs is required to earn their food and bed. But if they violate a rule in the prison, they will be sent to the ones that has more strict rules.

Crime can be prevented but can never be extinguished. Another way to deal with it is execute the same crime they've commit to others on themself. If they murder someone, they should be executed, if they steal from others, their financial and assets should be taken away, if they rape, they should get their dick chopped off, and so on. Problem is, how do we really know if the accused is not innocent and is being accused wrongfully?

[antonito]

Originally Posted by zulutango

"A lot of research has indicate that Poverty is the main cause of crime.: So how do you explain any white collar crime then? How about all the over-indulged rich kids with their Bimmers and Mercs who terrorize North Van ?
If poverty is so corrupting that it turns people into criminals without their being able to stop it...why then is not every single person living below the "poverty level" a criminal? I have met many "poor" people who never have, nor ever would, turn to crime. It has nothing to do with environment and everything to do with personal accountability. If you have poverty to blame then you never have to accept responsibility for your actions.

azndude already addressed this, but seriously, you need to think a lot more broadly. Your logic is pretty messed up. You seem to have a black and white mentality. There are a million shades of grey that must be accounted for, or else nothing works on a large, real world scale.

You know poor people that don't commit crime? Wow. Awesome. Doesn't change the statistics, it doesn't negate what the reports say. The reports don't say that all poor people are going to become criminals, do they?

It also doesn't change all the factors that azndude listed. When you have people that have far more factors working against them then other members of society, why do you think that they won't be more likely to fail?

[antonito]

Originally Posted by johny

if the crack head mom was locked away, she woudln't have had a kid. crime and poverty problem solved with one answer.

Unless she already had 5 kids before getting locked away. Which is pretty much exactly what happens in a lot of the cases, and makes things either the same, or worse

Without taking care of all the other factors, now all you have is the mom in jail, the kids living at Grandmas house or in Child Services (a horribly underfunded clusterfuck that breeds criminals), and not much else.

[zulutango]

"You seem to have a black and white mentality. There are a million shades of grey that must be accounted for, or else nothing works on a large, real world scale."

I guess after 28 years of dealing with criminals for a living I may be forgiven for appearing to favour black & white, as opposed to shades of grey. Every transaction I ever had with a criminal involved enforcing the laws with "discretion'" and that is the mandate of a Law Enforcement Officer. Discretion cuts both ways though and after a working lifetime of seeing "discretion" being demanded by the obviously guilty as...letting them off...when the Legal system already does "on a large, real world scale." please accept my real world scale. I never ever charged anyone with everything I could have and I believe I'm typical of most Cops. I have dropped charges, reduced the severity, diverted and healing-circled till I'm exhausted.

I have arrested and charged criminals from all sectors of the socio-economic spectrum. In strict total numbers, the greatest majority were not "poor". Employees and employers who steal from their companies, volunteers who steal from charities, sports coaches and teachers who assault and molest kids, school principals who drive drunk and kill/injure others, politicians and business men who abuse their wives and children, major "respectable" businessmen who produce and sell drugs for organized crime while laundering the money for them thru real estate dealings...I will stop here as you ( I hope) get the idea.

Many of the worst long-term repeat low level offenders have huge records and are fueled by drug addiction. This addiction, like alcoholics, keeps them spending whatever money they have to feed the monkey, not to become productive members of society. Poverty does not cause criminal behaviour. Being raised in it can mean that crime may appear to be an easy way out of it, but some of the most successful people out there come from poor backgrounds where they learned to work harder than normal to accomplish success.

By celebrating destructive behaviour (eg allowing unwed young mothers to keep their children instead of allowing them to be adopted by 2 parents) we are setting up huge future potential risk factors for the mother and the child. BTW...there is no such thing as a single mum...unless it involves a test tube. The fathers must be held accountable and responsible too. That is NOT a shade of grey.
In the real world there actually is black and white...or should we say, used to be. These days nobody is responsible, there is always an excuse and just trying to do something is more important that actually accomplishing it. We have cheapened real accomplishment because we want everybody to be "special" and nobody ever looses.

[antonito]

Originally Posted by zulutango

"You seem to have a black and white mentality. There are a million shades of grey that must be accounted for, or else nothing works on a large, real world scale."

I guess after 28 years of dealing with criminals for a living I may be forgiven for appearing to favour black & white, as opposed to shades of grey. Every transaction I ever had with a criminal involved enforcing the laws with "discretion'" and that is the mandate of a Law Enforcement Officer. Discretion cuts both ways though and after a working lifetime of seeing "discretion" being demanded by the obviously guilty as...letting them off...when the Legal system already does "on a large, real world scale." please accept my real world scale. I never ever charged anyone with everything I could have and I believe I'm typical of most Cops. I have dropped charges, reduced the severity, diverted and healing-circled till I'm exhausted.

I have arrested and charged criminals from all sectors of the socio-economic spectrum. In strict total numbers, the greatest majority were not "poor". Employees and employers who steal from their companies, volunteers who steal from charities, sports coaches and teachers who assault and molest kids, school principals who drive drunk and kill/injure others, politicians and business men who abuse their wives and children, major "respectable" businessmen who produce and sell drugs for organized crime while laundering the money for them thru real estate dealings...I will stop here as you ( I hope) get the idea.

Statistics do not lie. A disproportionate number of criminals are poor. Are there more poor people than everyone else combined in prison? No. That would be stupid to assume.

But do you not see the problem with the higher percentage? Does that not tell you something?

Many of the worst long-term repeat low level offenders have huge records and are fueled by drug addiction. This addiction, like alcoholics, keeps them spending whatever money they have to feed the monkey, not to become productive members of society. Poverty does not cause criminal behaviour. Being raised in it can mean that crime may appear to be an easy way out of it, but some of the most successful people out there come from poor backgrounds where they learned to work harder than normal to accomplish success.

Again, explain how people that have more hurdles to get past due to poverty are not more likely to turn to crime than those who don't have the extra problems?

I might as well say that drugs do not cause crime, because I know people that are on drugs that aren't criminals.

By celebrating destructive behaviour (eg allowing unwed young mothers to keep their children instead of allowing them to be adopted by 2 parents) we are setting up huge future potential risk factors for the mother and the child. BTW...there is no such thing as a single mum...unless it involves a test tube. The fathers must be held accountable and responsible too. That is NOT a shade of grey.

Hey, these are really awesome ideas.

Except that there is grey.

The "grey" does not mean to say "well, no problem, it's not your fault". The grey is the reality of the situations:

-they should be adopted. Hey, I'm with you. That'd be awesome. Many aren't though. Many, especially those from crack addicted mothers, stay in group homes, which suck dicks, and basically has a bunch of kids together teaching each other how to commit crimes because they are underfunded, understaffed, etc.

-The dad should be responsible. Again, that'd be awesome. So is it going to be you that goes out and rounds up these dads? Are you planning on getting a posse together? Where do you plan to get the funding for your time? Or are you going to do it on your own time? If so, I commend you.

Also, celebrating? WTF? I don't think you know what that word means.

In the real world there actually is black and white...or should we say, used to be. These days nobody is responsible, there is always an excuse and just trying to do something is more important that actually accomplishing it. We have cheapened real accomplishment because we want everybody to be "special" and nobody ever looses.

This empty rhetoric gets society no where. I'd love it if people would simply bootstrap themselves into being good members of society. However, constant facts and reality proves that this is just not going to happen without something changing. You might as well just piss into the wind.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by shiningb3b3

no matter how poor you are, you should not commit to crime to get through your problems, PERIOD.

The problem is that the incentives are there to commit crimes because you have nothing to lose and much to gain. Risk reward - take what you need and risk getting caught or stay broke? Non-poor ppl don't consider this choice because they're ABLE to achieve what they need without doing something illegal.

Originally Posted by zulutango

"A lot of research has indicate that Poverty is the main cause of crime.: So how do you explain any white collar crime then? How about all the over-indulged rich kids with their Bimmers and Mercs who terrorize North Van ?
If poverty is so corrupting that it turns people into criminals without their being able to stop it...why then is not every single person living below the "poverty level" a criminal? I have met many "poor" people who never have, nor ever would, turn to crime. It has nothing to do with environment and everything to do with personal accountability. If you have poverty to blame then you never have to accept responsibility for your actions.

As has been covered by others, it's all about probability. You can't control how well each individual is able to survive in that environment. Some will fight past the obstacles legitimately.. others can't or won't cuz it's easier for them the other way.

Often, poverty leads to a poorer level of education cuz surviving is more important than reading books. That just makes the problem worse cuz it gives the individual few avenues out of that situation in a system we're not instinctively born to live in.