Officer regrets what happened to Dziekanski, but thinks he acted properly

[Sky_2000]

Originally Posted by Noir

He didn't deserve to die, but no he's not.


Yes he was, but the police officers also have to factor the variable that he's also erratic, unstable, and therefore unpredictable. Hence the tazer. The intent was to subdue, not to kill.

The intense public outcry is only the result of society's growing sentiment that one should never be responsible of one's own actions, which our very letigious culture strongly suggests. What happened to Dziekanski was a simple cause and effect.

Don't know why you guys are afraid of cops but I certainly am not.

Yes, the big bad Polish rasied a staple over his head, because he was going to kill 4 high trained officers with 4 guns, 4 batons, Prepper Spray and who knows what else. How do you know the RCMP knew he was erratic and unstable and therefore unpredictible? Did they talk to him? Did they stand back and watch to see what he was up to? Did they talk to any witness that were there to see what he was up to?
The intent to subdue could have been argued the first 2 maybe 3 shocks but once he was down on the ground and had two RCMP officers on top of him there was no reason to shock him another 2 times.

No, the growing public sentiment is that these men in position of power highly dangerous weapons should be responsible for their actions and should not be above the law. Mr.Dziekanski has already paid with his life for his part in this transaction. Seeing that life is the ulitmate price that someone can pay for his mistake i think it's fair to say that Mr.Dziekanski has paid for his mistakes in full. So what about the officers responsible for his death?

[welfare]

to anyone who still firmly believes that this man deserved to be tased, ask yourself this simple question:
would the officer have used lethal force, such as his handgun?
no. i don't think he would have.
anytime that anybody at all is tased, ever, that question should play through the officers head first.
the proof is in the pudding. officers are not capable of making the conscious choice to use this weapon exclusively in place of lethal force. especially if the weapon has been deemed non-lethal. IMO, it's not the weapon itself, but rather it's classification and use which makes it just as damaging as any gun

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Superfived

Yes, the big bad Polish rasied a staple over his head, because he was going to kill 4 high trained officers with 4 guns, 4 batons, Prepper Spray and who knows what else. How do you know the RCMP knew he was erratic and unstable and therefore unpredictible? Did they talk to him? Did they stand back and watch to see what he was up to? Did they talk to any witness that were there to see what he was up to?
The intent to subdue could have been argued the first 2 maybe 3 shocks but once he was down on the ground and had two RCMP officers on top of him there was no reason to shock him another 2 times.

No, the growing public sentiment is that these men in position of power highly dangerous weapons should be responsible for their actions and should not be above the law. Mr.Dziekanski has already paid with his life for his part in this transaction. Seeing that life is the ulitmate price that someone can pay for his mistake i think it's fair to say that Mr.Dziekanski has paid for his mistakes in full. So what about the officers responsible for his death?

1. Why the emphasis on the stapler and not the incident as a whole?

2. To the bolded question: To be called in to aid an emergency, an incident must have already escalated to such proportions, as per reported by who called it in. Otherwise, I don't see why standard Airport Security could not have defused the situation themselves and detain Dzienkanski until the transfer of custody to authorities.

3. Simple common sense should indicate that Airports are one of the high-security establishments, along with Federal Banks, Treasury, etc (and rightfully so). If one doesn't believe me, one should try running through the metal detectors past security and see if they'll spare anyone any courtesy or extend someone a margin of doubt.

(I'm done arguing sentiments in the past thread, but these are the basis of my objective POV's)

[welfare]

Originally Posted by Noir

Otherwise, I don't see why standard Airport Security could not have defused the situation themselves and detain Dzienkanski until the transfer of custody to authorities.

there was actually something behind this, IIRC. look into it. whatever it was, i recall it had a foul stench

[Ludepower]

Originally Posted by Superfived

He's a coplover because even with all the information present to him he still can't get over the fact that the RCMP officer have partical or a big part in the blame game at the moment. They refuse to admit to any wrong doing and even show public contept towards anyone who doesn't believe them, because as we all know the police can never be wrong!

Yes don't fuck with the police cause they are always right!! Yes we should never question people in position of power cause they are always right!!! That the same self serving attitude that the majority of Germans had when Hitler comminted genocide on a whole race of people. Yes if we didn't have the Charter of Rights then what would we have? A country run by police and politictions who play by their own rules? Things will change because people will always strived for a better future.


PS. If you don't want to read what happened why do you think you have a right to be part of a conversation? Is it because you think you are so much smarter then everyone else? and that facts and reason do not matter in this society?

HAHA Look at you go..your on FIRE!

Is this Rodney King? Why dont you go find more people like yourself and demontrate about this police brutality? That's right..there's not many of you cause the whole world CLEARLY saw what happen.

We dont have to read shit or follow court proceedings...spoken in any language...you dont walk away from the cops or your gettin burned.

LOL..i love how your took my charter of rights remake so literally and brought Hitler into this...get off your soapbox...we all have opinions...Robert has part blame to this...so dont tell me otherwise.

[Sky_2000]

Originally Posted by Noir

1. Why the emphasis on the stapler and not the incident as a whole?

2. To the bolded question: To be called in to aid an emergency, an incident must have already escalated to such proportions, as per reported by who called it in. Otherwise, I don't see why standard Airport Security could not have defused the situation themselves and detain Dzienkanski until the transfer of custody to authorities.

3. Simple common sense should indicate that Airports are one of the high-security establishments, along with Federal Banks, Treasury, etc (and rightfully so). If one doesn't believe me, one should try running through the metal detectors past security and see if they'll spare anyone any courtesy or extend someone a margin of doubt.

(I'm done arguing sentiments in the past thread, but these are the basis of my objective POV's)

1. Did the RCMP see him throwing chairs? No. Did they see him throwing a monitor? No. RCMP officers are trained to asset a situtation before they get 100 percent invovled in any altercation but clearly they did not brother asking anyone what was happening, they just rushed in with tasers a blazing. So the only parts that the officers really witness was when Mr.Dziekanski raised the stapler that is why I put such emphasis on it. So anything else that happened before they came isn't really relevant because the RCMP did not know exactly what had happened before they came. Every organization that was invovled in this incident has said that YES they were partly to blame and have issued formal apologizes to Mr.Dziekanski family. Are you looking at Airport Security failing to see that there was a strange man walking around there area for 10 hours? Are you asking yourself why RCMP officers didn't prepare themselves better with more information before engaging Mr.Dziekanski? Are you asking yourself why they had to taser Mr.Dziekanski even thou he didn't seem like he was fighting back after he was on the ground? Are you asking yourself why the RCMP has lied to many times about facts in this incident? I could go on and on but i have one question for you: "Are you looking at the whole incident?"

2. By the looks of your question you don't seem like you know a lot about the situation either. Airport Security calls the RCMP for ever little thing! Airport Security did not talk to the man at all. Have you ever dealt with CBRS or airport security? They usually don't take shit from no one and usually won't even listen to any one else point of views except their owns. So usually when people don't agree with them they just call RCMP so they can deal with it. He was in international customs for 10 hours, You would think Airport Security would have notice a man walking around for 10 hours looking lost and disorientated but they didn't. Even if Airport Security had tired to detain Mr.Dziekanski and failed to and called the RCMP for help, the RCMP are still at fault for not properly asseting the the incident before they went in with guns blazing. They are trained to asset all situations before acting upon it. They have stated from the time they recieved the call to come to the time they kill Mr.Dziekanski they only said one thing to each other "DO YOU HAVE A TASER?"

3. Common sense also dictates that if a man is walking around in a so called "high-security establishments" he should be noticed and be helped or escorted out in a reasonsible matter of time. He was there for 10 hours with no help or assistants from workers at the airport. And when they finally noticed him in disstressed they called RCMP right away without trying to deal with the man themselves. The fact is the Airport and the RCMP has a faulted system that should be addressed with. But the fact that he RCMP refuses to admit any fault is what really pisses off the public.

[Sky_2000]

Originally Posted by Ludepower

HAHA Look at you go..your on FIRE!

Is this Rodney King? Why dont you go find more people like yourself and demontrate about this police brutality? That's right..there's not many of you cause the whole world CLEARLY saw what happen.

We dont have to read shit or follow court proceedings...spoken in any language...you dont walk away from the cops or your gettin burned.

LOL..i love how your took my charter of rights remake so literally and brought Hitler into this...get off your soapbox...we all have opinions...Robert has part blame to this...so dont tell me otherwise.

There are alot of people who are outrage about this just as I am. If you did a simple google search you would see that most of Canada's major news networks are following this case very closely.

I agree you don't have to read shit or follow court proceeding but if your going to talk about something you should at least know what your talking about? You obivously don't.

Yes most of the world clearly saw what happen but you don't seem to have seen the same thing didn't you. He didn't walk away from the officer he was told/finger pointed by the commanding officer in the video to go over there. If you had been following the news or the links i have posted up for you then you would have known that. Good for you for having your own opinon but that doesn't stop you from looking like a moron.

He's dead what more punishment can you give him. The fact still remains that the RCMP officers have some liability to this matter but refuse to admit fault.

Do you think Robert deserved to die because of what he did?

[welfare]

i don't think anybody in their right mind believes he deserved to die. and the officers didn't intentionally kill him.
honestly, we need to get rid of these fucking tasers. all they do is add more bruises to the already battered reputation of the rcmp and police forces.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by welfare

i don't think anybody in their right mind believes he deserved to die. and the officers didn't intentionally kill him.
honestly, we need to get rid of these fucking tasers. all they do is add more bruises to the already battered reputation of the rcmp and police forces.

No the officers didn't intentionally kill him.

But they intentionally TORTURED him.

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Superfived

1. Did the RCMP see him throwing chairs? No. Did they see him throwing a monitor? No. RCMP officers are trained to asset a situtation before they get 100 percent invovled in any altercation but clearly they did not brother asking anyone what was happening, they just rushed in with tasers a blazing. So the only parts that the officers really witness was when Mr.Dziekanski raised the stapler that is why I put such emphasis on it. So anything else that happened before they came isn't really relevant because the RCMP did not know exactly what had happened before they came. Every organization that was invovled in this incident has said that YES they were partly to blame and have issued formal apologizes to Mr.Dziekanski family. Are you looking at Airport Security failing to see that there was a strange man walking around there area for 10 hours? Are you asking yourself why RCMP officers didn't prepare themselves better with more information before engaging Mr.Dziekanski? Are you asking yourself why they had to taser Mr.Dziekanski even thou he didn't seem like he was fighting back after he was on the ground? Are you asking yourself why the RCMP has lied to many times about facts in this incident? I could go on and on but i have one question for you: "Are you looking at the whole incident?"

2. By the looks of your question you don't seem like you know a lot about the situation either. Airport Security calls the RCMP for ever little thing! Airport Security did not talk to the man at all. Have you ever dealt with CBRS or airport security? They usually don't take shit from no one and usually won't even listen to any one else point of views except their owns. So usually when people don't agree with them they just call RCMP so they can deal with it. He was in international customs for 10 hours, You would think Airport Security would have notice a man walking around for 10 hours looking lost and disorientated but they didn't. Even if Airport Security had tired to detain Mr.Dziekanski and failed to and called the RCMP for help, the RCMP are still at fault for not properly asseting the the incident before they went in with guns blazing. They are trained to asset all situations before acting upon it. They have stated from the time they recieved the call to come to the time they kill Mr.Dziekanski they only said one thing to each other "DO YOU HAVE A TASER?"

3. Common sense also dictates that if a man is walking around in a so called "high-security establishments" he should be noticed and be helped or escorted out in a reasonsible matter of time. He was there for 10 hours with no help or assistants from workers at the airport. And when they finally noticed him in disstressed they called RCMP right away without trying to deal with the man themselves. The fact is the Airport and the RCMP has a faulted system that should be addressed with. But the fact that he RCMP refuses to admit any fault is what really pisses off the public.

It's like arguing with Vmec.

Your points are still the same, you just altered it to a form of tirade. My original rebuttal can still more or less refute your points (with a fraction of the verbage).

[welfare]

tom smith is a dirty, treacherous piece of trash. right up there with schwarzenegger, bush and hitler

[SumAznGuy]

Hate to point to the obvious, but the RCMP will never admit to any fault in the death whether they were at fault or not.

That being said, a few things that I noticed following the inquiry.
1) Perhaps the RCMP acted in haste, but if the call into 911 was shots fired, do you think the police will show up and spend the time to ask all witnesses what happened? You may argue that this is apples to oranges. So I will give you another example. Try calling the police and tell them someone broke into your house and see how long the response time is. Then try it again and say the perp is still in the house.

In this case, it was called in that some irate person was throwing things around in the airport. That is all the media has told us. Did they post the exact 911 call? Do we know what other information was given to 911 from the airport personel that called it in? I'm sure they talked about it in the inquiry yet no one in the media has posted it, and it doesn't seem like most of the poeple here know either.

2) The police show up and there is a man who was acting irate before they showed up. When the police approach him, from what I could see in the video, the guy clearly has a stapler in his hand. For those people that say "whoopdy ding it is a stapler" well if it is a metal stapler, that shit can hurt as much as a brick if it is used as a weapon or thrown at you.
As much as I don't like the police, I have met my share of officers that I felt went above and beyond the required minimum. Look at the officers that patrol the Police Forums. That being said, good cops or bad cops, they are all doing a job and should never have to put their own lives/safety at risk. Hence the bullet proof vest and non-lethal weapons besides the guns.
For those that ask why the police didn't use pepper spray or their batons? The police want to end the situation and subdue the man, not to escalade the situation. how do you think an irate violent person will react when they are attacked with a buton or pepper sprayed? Ever heard of the fight or flight response?
How many people remember the case where the VPD were trying to subdue a known car their with their butons and the guy ended up dying? Yes it happens. And afterwards, the police changed their procedure on baton usage.

3) The victim puts his hands up and walks away. I don't know about you, but I think that is grounds to use non-lethal force. What are you going to do, jump him from behind and get into a fist fight with the guy? But hey, what do I know? I never took any police training, so all these experts on RS must know something. Tazering him 5 times, now I give you that. I know it wasn't mentioned here, but someone else on the intraweb mentioned how the officers had their knees on the guys back and neck while they cuffed him. This is called subduing the person so they can cuff him. When there is someone on your neck, it is kinda hard to fight off the police.

4) The police realize the vicim is not breathing and calls for an ambulance. According to the inquiry, proper protocal was not followed. the ambulance was down graded so their lights were not flashing, and the airport ambulance wasn't called which would have been proper procedure.

5) Victim's mom was at the airport waiting for her son. When he never showed up, she asked the people for help and little help was offered. Fustrated, she returned to her home in Kelowna. Gee, how long of a bus ride was that?

There is some cover up, and I will not refute that. Was the officers wrong, perhaps because they used the tazer 5 times. Victim and mother could have co-ordinated things better. Airport needs to revise their procedures so instances like this will never happen again.
RCMP has already changed their policy on the tazer. How many people remember the 94 Stanley cup riots? How many people remember the person who was shot with a rubber bullet by the police? How mamy people know the guy suffered brain damage from the rubber bullet?

I am sick and tired of all the people bitching and crying about the whole incident. [/rant]

[SumAznGuy]

Just flipping through channels, they are showing Guinie Pig on discovery and they are talking about less lethal weapons. AS i type this, they have already talked about pepper spray and the tazer. Up next the the bean bag gun.

[supersaag]

^ Good Post.

Here are a few point I will add:

In an enclosed building, the use of pepper spray is not recommended as the spread of the spray can be harmful.

While being trained for the RCMP you are taught the 1+1 rule. You (Police Officer) are allowed to use force one step up from the force being used against yourself. Example: If someone is being verbally abusive, the PO is allowed to use their body to subdue the individual. If someone is using something small EG. a stick, bottle, stapler etc. the PO is supposed to use one step up which could be their baton, pepper spray and now the taser. It all falls into a chain where it is under the officers discretion on which weapon to use.

While looking into the events leading up to the volatile incident, there is a "ten" hour time period where something erupted in Mr.D. We as the general public dont know much about the leading events. An example is he doesnt speak English so if a customs officer asks him if he is bringing any drugs and he just knods his head, they have no choice but to search him. What if a security officer told him to pull down his pants to check for drugs in his ass?

Saying this, I believe that if there was sufficient "traveler/visitor information" provided by YVR, the situation wouldnt have gotten to that point. Did anyone notice the renovations done by YVR after the incident? From what ive heard, they spent a great deal of money installing phones and other tools for "visitors/travelers" who dont speak Canadas mother language.

I could also argue that Mr.D could have come to Canada more prepared. I dont remember where he was coming from but i guarantee that he could have found one of those translating books.

This leads me onto my next question, what kindof individual goes to a new country and throws stuff around? Either the individual is extremely stubborn, really stupid and/or retarded. I will speak from a personal example. I was flying to India with a stop somewhere in between, after the stop we took off and experienced some turbulance, winds and ice which made the aircraft use more fuel. We had to make a pitstop in some small city. Sounded like everything would be fine. An hour later we get a notice that the air crew ran out of "air time" or whatever its called. They werent allowed to fly the plane. We couldnt leave the plane because of some "rules". We ended up staying in the plane for a total of 25 hours before departing to the final destination.

Couldnt I have been justified for having a fit? I felt like throwing the crying fucking babies out of the plane but what good would have come from that. I believe that any sane, sober person would realize that. Why didnt Mr.D?

Many of you have been to other countries and will recognize a police officer right off the bat. If someone is wearing body armour in the public, you know there important. Any sane, sober person would recognize a PO. Why didnt Mr.D? Why did he turn around after being approached by four "marked" Police Officers? Will anyone agree with me when I say that him waving his hands and turning away from the police officers could be interpretated as a "Fuck Off"?

Another question. Have any of you had a slack day at work? When you didnt put your full effort into something just to get it done. Being a cop is like every other job. One could say the cops used the taser cause they were too lazy to subdue Mr.D by hand.

I heard that the POs involved were on their lunch/dinner break when the incident was reported to them. Im going to say that if it was me, i would be choked to be bothered on my lunch break to deal with some idiot throwing shit in a fucking airport. Do you know how emotionally hard it is to put down a half eaten boston cream donut or not being able to finish the last meaty part of a chili bowl. Yea, i would be rattled.

Now on the other side, i know a few officers who have worked at the airport and they will all say its "boring". Now just imagine having this shiny new taser and not being able to test it out. HEY, COPS ARE HUMANS! Give a guy something shiny and new and he will be dieing to use it. The young cop probably didnt pay attention in class when they talked about the RISK of the taser, hes a guy, he was probably thinking about the hunny sitting next to him. He gets to finally use his taser, hes really excited and he gives Mr.D a few extra jolts for fun. WHERE DO WE START BLAMING PEOPLE? Blame the cops mom, blame his teachers, what if the taser was faulty so lets blame that fucking thing too.


Finally, onto the "Police Brutality part of this". How many of you believe that the punishment system in Canada is shitty? Well let me remind you that cops are just like you They get angry too. I bet that every one of you would like to torture every child molester out there. I bet every cop would too. And they can! And they do but when some cops makes a judgement mistake like every other human out there, they deserve to be ridiculed? Tortured, as someone said earlier? Blame the cop for wanting to make an example of Mr.D. Dont cause a ruckus at an airport.



Simply put, if we are going to blame someone for this incident, it has to be the individual who made mankind. The person that allowed us to make mistakes.


On October 14th 2007, mankind failed.

[welfare]

mankind failed? hah! that's actually less sound than the twinkie defense.
i'm not a professional golfer because i don't have a snowballs chance in hell of hitting a hole in one from 200 yards. get my point?

[simsimi1004]

wtf is mankind fail.... more like police fail. police are human too but BECAUSE they chose to be cops, they should be more calm and be able to CONTROL their emotions of Anger, urge to use a shiny toy. It's their choice that they became a cop and they should be responsible for it. Their choice of being a cop allowed them authority to use lethal weapons and they should be fucking responsible using it.
in other words, police are human but they are one step above civilians, meaning that they should also be more careful of what they do, especially if their MISTAKE can lead to death.

i see this case realy simple.
with the info presented

Using a taser was not justified.
cops using the taser killed the man.
The mans death was not justified.

cops job is to serve justice.
cops action was not justified.
cops fail.

to azzuro.
what your saying is that robert is somewhat at blame for cops using a taser.
BUT, it doesnt matter if roberts mistake to lead to cops taser.
its teh fact that cops tasering was a MISTAKE. one that should have not been made and shuold be punished serverly.

to supersagg.
if cops are like me, then im like a cop.
so if you verbally abuse me, i have the right to use force on you?
Obviously not, because i am not a cop.
Cops should not be able to make a mistake like me, especially as big as this one. it was their choice to become a cop and they should live up to higher standards.

[SumAznGuy]

Simsim1004, you fail to see the most basic parts of what happened in this incident.
First off, you claim using the tazer was not justified. So in your expertise, how should the officers have handled the situation? Remember, all they know was a call about a violent person who was throwing furniture around in the airport was made. When they approached the man, they clearly saw that he had a weapon in the stapler. Would YOU jump the man and try to man handle him to subdue him with brute force? Do you not think this would anger the already angry person and in turn he would use the stapler against the police officer?

The police using the tazer indirectly led to the man's death, but so did the slow medical aid response that the airport said they called in as a non-emergency.

Sure the man's death was unjustified, it was a pure accident.

The police is to protect and serve the public, in this case they did what they were supposed to do, by subduing an agitated violent person at the airport. Kennedy airport, Peurto Viarta, Peurto Plata, all the same. Guards armed with machine guns. I'm pretty sure if I started throwing things around, I would have a cap in my ass.

[welfare]

sorry, but 4 trained officers should be able to subdue one man "armed" with stapler. wtf is he gonna do with that anyways? the officer says he feared for his life? HA! what a joke. perjury is another crime he should be convicted of.
as for the non-emergency medical response, i hope this is scrutinized even further than the officer who fired that weapon.
IIRC, there were actually trained airport medical respondents within yards.
i understand that the officers are human. and that should be enough reason to rid them of these "completely non-lethal" weapons. regretfully, i don't see that happening in the near future. what with all the contracts between law enforcement agencies and taser international and all. with all those profits, they've got a whole slew of new and exciting fun toys to unleash on the public now

[simsimi1004]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

Simsim1004, you fail to see the most basic parts of what happened in this incident.
First off, you claim using the tazer was not justified. So in your expertise, how should the officers have handled the situation?

okay. maybe one shot was justified but definately not 5.

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

The police using the tazer indirectly led to the man's death, but so did the slow medical aid response that the airport said they called in as a non-emergency.

When i look at this with the most basic view, if the police didnt use taser 5 times, i doubt the man wouldve stopped breathing.

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

Sure the man's death was unjustified, it was a pure accident.

again taser 5 times is not an accident. its fucked up thinking of popo that shouldnt have been made.

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

The police is to protect and serve the public, in this case they did what they were supposed to do, by subduing an agitated violent person at the airport. Kennedy airport, Peurto Viarta, Peurto Plata, all the same. Guards armed with machine guns. I'm pretty sure if I started throwing things around, I would have a cap in my ass.

IMO, i think they did MORE than they were supposed to do. I'm sure just one or two cops with one/two taser couldve taken the man down. Popo couldve also subdued a man by shooting him with bullet, no? is that too brutal/harsh? im saying 5 shots is maybe excessive like using a gun?
if u start "tossing" (i dont think robert was really throwing), a cap in your ass is what u think u deserve? i think a 1 taser shot is more reasonable.

so what im trying to say is that 5 taser shots is not what the police shouldve done. I think you know this too.

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

Tazering him 5 times, now I give you that.
Was the officers wrong, perhaps because they used the tazer 5 times.

But because they did, it ultimately led to the man's death. So if you look at it from simple view, the police did wrong and it lead to man's death. popo fucked up.

and dont get me wrong, i respect popo, but the popo in this video fucked up.

[Noir]

Originally Posted by simsimi1004

okay. maybe one shot was justified but definately not 5.

If IIRC, the 5x tazer is only a new revelation to the incident. The original outcry was the use of tazers = murder, and that whether or not tazers were justified.

Are you now saying tazers WERE justified, just not the amount?

Originally Posted by welfare

as for the non-emergency medical response, i hope this is scrutinized even further than the officer who fired that weapon.

Werd. But still, the point is that there's enough blame to go around from Dziekanski + Airport Staff & Security + RCMP + Medical Aid. They all have contributed to the outcome of the incident. But what I disagree with is that I believe people are ONLY persecuting the police due to the general public bias against authorities and THAT reason alone; That this incident is only an opportunity to scorn figures of authority.

Despite the public demonization of our local police, I still think they're inline with or better than other 1st world policing from such nations as US, Britain, France or Germany. They are a far cry from the corrupt Nazi's from nations such as Mexico, Columbia, Slavic countries and the like.

[simsimi1004]

I meant taser as a incident of 5times cuz thats what happend.
i saw someone get tasered once right infront of me and know that it doesnt kill them.... but that was just 1 shot.

^^MAYBE 1 taser was OK. cuz seriously 4 trained cops vs 1 guy with stapler... i read somewhere the man was holding a stapler with fist. i was thinking and how else do u hold a stapler without using the whole hand to wrap around it.. but since cops are always shit scared for their life and their trained to expect the worst with stapler.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by simsimi1004

I meant taser as a incident of 5times cuz thats what happend.
i saw someone get tasered once right infront of me and know that it doesnt kill them.... but that was just 1 shot.

^^MAYBE 1 taser was OK. cuz seriously 4 trained cops vs 1 guy with stapler... i read somewhere the man was holding a stapler with fist. i was thinking and how else do u hold a stapler without using the whole hand to wrap around it.. but since cops are always shit scared for their life and their trained to expect the worst with stapler.

It is not uncommon to fire the tazer 2 times. First time puts the perp onto the ground, and the second time keeps the perp on the ground so the officers have time to get ontop of the person. Sometimes if the person is fighting back, a third zap will be used. That being said, I cannot tell from the video when the 5 zaps were used so I cannot comment on why 5 zaps were used. All I can say is if I was an officer and I had the tazer, I wouldn't think twice about using the zapper more than once to subdue the guy.

I said this once and I'll say it again. The police's job in this instance is to go and end the situation as soon as possible. Let's look at alternate forms of force they could have used. For one, shooting the guy in the leg is something you only see in the movies. The officers are trained to go for the biggest mass, ie his chest. Hmmm, shooting the guy in the chest. IMO not a really good idea.
Pepper spray, would subdue the guy, unless he was high on drugs. No one knew if he was or wasn't on drugs but there have been instances where a person high on crack/meth had super human strength and was able to fight back even after being shot 5 times. There was another instance where a person took heroin instead of cocain by mistake, fell from a roof and broke both her legs and was still walking around. But because they were indoors, the spray would become a fine mist and spread out in the air which could/would affect the 4 officers and innocent bystanders. ALso not a good idea.
Attack him with the buton, the irate person would most likely fight back which puts the officers in a dangerous position.

Ultimately, the police need to have the upper hand. That is just how it has to be. If you are not an officer, or taken the police training, it is hard to understand. For the people that say there was 4 officers against the one guy, remember what happened in Alberta where the 4 officers were murdered by the one guy? No officer should ever have to put their lives on the line like that. If it means they need a little extra protection, so be it. I am fine with that.

Once the perp was cuffed, if they tazered him or booted him with the buton, the I would cry foul.

As for the 5 tazers that lead the guys death, how do you know he didn't have a condition which added the extra stress of the trip, plus the tazer is what caused his heart to stop? But because the medical aid was so slow to respond due to other reasons, is it fair to say the tazering led to the guys death? I can only speculate, just like everyone else.

[welfare]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

I said this once and I'll say it again. The police's job in this instance is to go and end the situation as soon as possible.

you forgot a key word "safe"

Let's look at alternate forms of force they could have used. For one, shooting the guy in the leg is something you only see in the movies. The officers are trained to go for the biggest mass, ie his chest. Hmmm, shooting the guy in the chest. IMO not a really good idea.
Pepper spray, would subdue the guy, unless he was high on drugs. No one knew if he was or wasn't on drugs but there have been instances where a person high on crack/meth had super human strength and was able to fight back even after being shot 5 times. There was another instance where a person took heroin instead of cocain by mistake, fell from a roof and broke both her legs and was still walking around. But because they were indoors, the spray would become a fine mist and spread out in the air which could/would affect the 4 officers and innocent bystanders. ALso not a good idea.
Attack him with the buton, the irate person would most likely fight back which puts the officers in a dangerous position.

you really do prefer stating freak occurrences, don't you?
how about using there 8 trained hands and legs? i really don't see why that would have been so difficult.

Ultimately, the police need to have the upper hand. That is just how it has to be. If you are not an officer, or taken the police training, it is hard to understand. For the people that say there was 4 officers against the one guy, remember what happened in Alberta where the 4 officers were murdered by the one guy? No officer should ever have to put their lives on the line like that. If it means they need a little extra protection, so be it. I am fine with that.

once again, another freak occurrence. and they already had the upper hand x4

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by welfare

you forgot a key word "safe"

you really do prefer stating freak occurrences, don't you?
how about using there 8 trained hands and legs? i really don't see why that would have been so difficult.

once again, another freak occurrence. and they already had the upper hand x4

So what would you recommend? Shooting the perp in the leg?
Or asking him to lie down so they could cuff him?

Believe it or not, they are not that freak of an occurance. I know people who work at 222 Main st. and it happens quite a bit.

Remember the term fight or flight? If the 4 officers tried to man handle the 6 ft+ individual with a metal stapler in his hand, how do you think he will respond? Lie down and play dead? The police knew the man was agitated and showed violent tendencies when he was throwing furniture around.

And in regards to the 4 officers who were killed in the line of duty, it may be a rare occurance, but no one wants it to happen again. Which is why the RCMP changed some of their protocals after that incident. That is why officers wear bullet proof vest. Hell, even police dogs have bullet proof vest.

[Senna4ever]

I took some photos at the rally held to honour Robert last year.

http://www.revscene.net/forums/rally....html?t=504716