This is what i think of CRITICAL MASS......discuss.

[metal]

^CM sucks, and I don't even live in Vancouver. Stop trying to stir up a debate, it's stupid, end of story.

[B-DiZzLe]

Originally Posted by taylor192

Other than blocking off intersections, what laws do they disobey? Bikes have a right to the road, they can ride right down the centre of lanes if they want to, and the minimum speed limit is 20 kmph.

So I guess it's okay for Critical Mass to block off intersections because they're protestors? What didn't you understand when I said they don't obey traffic laws? Blocking off intersections and running red lights are NOT OBEYING TRAFFIC LAWS. Your logic seems to be coming from a foreign place which nobody agrees with.

They are protesting, not crying. People here are crying, stating all the awful things they'd do to critical mass bikers, yet will never actually do it.

Protesting = Crying.

If you don't like critical mass, protest against it. Whining/crying on a car forum isn't dong much.

There's a difference between me not liking them and protesting against them. If I were to protest against them I would fall into the same pit as they are, therefore being a hypocrite.

How did you get the idea? Are there magically less cars on the roads cause of you? Did you somehow magically mange to reduce traffic?

NO you don't get the IDEA, I know their message, but I DON'T GIVE A FUCK! Do you actually think by riding bikes and blocking off traffic once a month will get people to stop driving their vehicles? If you think we have bad traffic then I would advice you to never go to the LA, San Fran, Washington, or just don't go to the states for that.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

So I guess it's okay for Critical Mass to block off intersections because they're protestors? What didn't you understand when I said they don't obey traffic laws? Blocking off intersections and running red lights are NOT OBEYING TRAFFIC LAWS. Your logic seems to be coming from a foreign place which nobody agrees with.

If they rode around in one giant pack and stopped at every redlight people would still hate them for blocking traffic.

Admit it, you don't hate them cause they break laws, you hate them cause they are in your way. Which, ironically, is why they hate you. Funny eh?

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

Protesting = Crying.

That's asinine. Most of the rights we have today are from others protesting.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

NO you don't get the IDEA, I know their message, but I DON'T GIVE A FUCK! Do you actually think by riding bikes and blocking off traffic once a month will get people to stop driving their vehicles? If you think we have bad traffic then I would advice you to never go to the LA, San Fran, Washington, or just don't go to the states for that.

If their protests keep Vancouver from becoming like LA, then I'm all for it. Vancouver is one of the most bike friendly cities in North America, and that certainly wasn't cause of people like you that would prefer to run them over.

I have spent enough time in LA to know I'd never move there. > 1 hr commutes, no thanks. Why are the commutes so long? Lets see.... could be cars.... lack of public transit... lack of alternative transportation... wait, what is Critical Mass protesting about... oh ya, all those things so Vancouver doesn't turn into another LA.

Ask anyone who's lived here 3 decades or more how bad the traffic has gotten in that time, then predict what will happen in 3 decades. This is why I don't agree with how Critical Mass gets their message out, yet I'm not going to disagree with their message.

I have a bike and use it to commute, do you?
I walk to most places (gym, groceries, booze) after work and on weekends, do you?

[Ferra]

Originally Posted by taylor192

If they rode around in one giant pack and stopped at every redlight people would still hate them for blocking traffic.

Admit it, you don't hate them cause they break laws, you hate them cause they are in your way. Which, ironically, is why they hate you. Funny eh?

Road infrastructure are largely paid by drivers in the forms of fuel tax and other fees.
Cyclists don't pay or contribute anything to the infrastructure which they are using free of charge.
If you want to share the road, share the costs.

If you want to know why driver hate cyclist, try putting yourself in their shoes. Say there is this dedicated cycling lane for cyclist to ride on and each cyclist paid a fees to use the lane, but then this road is also open to pedestrians (who use it for free).
And these pedestrians often block your lane at walking speed. So instead of riding at 15-30km, you are forced to slow down to a halt so much that you can't even ride on the bike everytime there is a pedestrian walking in front of you.

And now imagine these pedestrians getting together to block your cycling lane ENTIRELY once every month to protest that you cyclists should be walking more to promote better health.

[q0192837465]

Originally Posted by Ferra

Road infrastructure are largely paid by drivers in the forms of fuel tax and other fees.
Cyclists don't pay or contribute anything to the infrastructure which they are using free of charge.
If you want to share the road, share the costs.

If you want to know why driver hate cyclist, try putting yourself in their shoes. Say there is this dedicated cycling lane for cyclist to ride on and each cyclist paid a fees to use the lane, but then this road is also open to pedestrians (who use it for free).
And these pedestrians often block your lane at walking speed. So instead of riding at 15-30km, you are forced to slow down to a halt so much that you can't even ride on the bike everytime there is a pedestrian walking in front of you.

And now imagine these pedestrians getting together to block your cycling lane ENTIRELY once every month to protest that you cyclists should be walking more to promote better health.

Nicce, that's a good analogy. I hate CM

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Ferra

Road infrastructure are largely paid by drivers in the forms of fuel tax and other fees.
Cyclists don't pay or contribute anything to the infrastructure which they are using free of charge.
If you want to share the road, share the costs.

I feel the same about taxes, that the top few percent of Canadians pay the lion's share of taxes, yet every Canadian gets access to the services.

I'm in the top 8% of earners, I'll gladly stop paying my share of the services the other 92% use.

Now take the same analogy and apply it to cars, bikes and pedestrians. Drivers pay to subsidize other forms of transportation.

Now lets go one further, did you know the fuel tax doesn't even cover most infrastructure? Its paid out of provincial and municipal taxes. Thus why should some rich family in Shaughnessy pay so much more in income/property tax for the roads and bridges you use?

Hmmmm you didn't think of all this did you? Sorry to burst your bubble.

Originally Posted by Ferra

...

Since I blew holes through your little analogy, here's one for you:

What if all the rich people just stopped paying their taxes that subsidize your lifestyle? What if every rich person stood on a bridge that was paid for by their taxes and told you to kindly fuck off until you can pay for it yourself?

---

I'll give you a little hint: we live in a socialist society, not capitalism, and not libertarian. The rich pay for the poor, and those who do bad things for society (drive, smoke, drink, ...) subsidize those who do good things (walk, eat healthy, ...)

[Ferra]

Originally Posted by taylor192

I feel the same about taxes, that the top few percent of Canadians pay the lion's share of taxes, yet every Canadian gets access to the services.

I'm in the top 8% of earners, I'll gladly stop paying my share of the services the other 92% use.

Now take the same analogy and apply it to cars, bikes and pedestrians. Drivers pay to subsidize other forms of transportation.

Now lets go one further, did you know the fuel tax doesn't even cover most infrastructure? Its paid out of provincial and municipal taxes. Thus why should some rich family in Shaughnessy pay so much more in income/property tax for the roads and bridges you use?

Hmmmm you didn't think of all this did you? Sorry to burst your bubble.


Since I blew holes through your little analogy, here's one for you:

What if all the rich people just stopped paying their taxes that subsidize your lifestyle? What if every rich person stood on a bridge that was paid for by their taxes and told you to kindly fuck off until you can pay for it yourself?

---

I'll give you a little hint: we live in a socialist society, not capitalism, and not libertarian. The rich pay for the poor, and those who do bad things for society (drive, smoke, drink, ...) subsidize those who do good things (walk, eat healthy, ...)

You are not very bright, are you? How about you think through what exactly you wrote here?

You didn't disprove anything, all you are saying is that in our society, often 10% of the people pays for 90% of the expenses, which is very true.
But for you guys, instead of appreciating these top 10% money payers, you think you somehow DESERVED to receive these benefits for free.

And you are also missing the point here. We the drivers who are the top 10% money payers didn't mind giving you freeriders access to use the infrastructure we paid for. After all, like you said, we live in a socialist society and the rich supports the poor.
But instead of just using these infrastructure, you people actually have the nerve to purposefully block and cause great inconvenience to the rest of the people.
THIS IS WHY WE HATE YOU
we don't hate you because you are freeriders and you are using the infrastructure for free. We hate you because you people "purposefully" cause great inconvenience to the rest of the society.

[Ferra]

You also mentioned you are a top tax payer. Again, how about you think of it this way. How would you feel if the very people (junkies & criminals) who your tax dollars go to support their welfare, get together once every month to scream and protest at your door at midnight and prevent you from having a good night sleep (because they don't have money to own a house & a nice bed like you do).

[B-DiZzLe]

Originally Posted by taylor192

If they rode around in one giant pack and stopped at every redlight people would still hate them for blocking traffic.

Admit it, you don't hate them cause they break laws, you hate them cause they are in your way. Which, ironically, is why they hate you. Funny eh?

WRONG, I just think they're protesting the wrong way, I get their message but some people have 2 jobs and need to drive to work to save time and probably don't have enough energy to bike to work after working 12-16 hour/day.

I don't mind sharing the road with bikes as long as they're in their own lane, and I don't know why they would hate me since I'm probably never in their way knowing they're slower than I am.

My point is, why do they get to run reds when I don't? Why are they treated differently from me? Because they're annoying protesters?

That's asinine. Most of the rights we have today are from others protesting.

They're not protesting for rights.

If their protests keep Vancouver from becoming like LA, then I'm all for it. Vancouver is one of the most bike friendly cities in North America, and that certainly wasn't cause of people like you that would prefer to run them over.

I have spent enough time in LA to know I'd never move there. > 1 hr commutes, no thanks. Why are the commutes so long? Lets see.... could be cars.... lack of public transit... lack of alternative transportation... wait, what is Critical Mass protesting about... oh ya, all those things so Vancouver doesn't turn into another LA.

There are no major concerns about traffic in BC, plus we're buidling a new sky train for cummute. There are innocent people being affected by their actions but apparently it's okay because they're protesting to save us 30 years from now. I never said I wanted to run them over, I said there's going to be one person out there with road rage that probably will, there are a couple RS members that probably will .

Ask anyone who's lived here 3 decades or more how bad the traffic has gotten in that time, then predict what will happen in 3 decades. This is why I don't agree with how Critical Mass gets their message out, yet I'm not going to disagree with their message.

Ask yourself how much the human population has grown in 3 decades.

I have a bike and use it to commute, do you?
I walk to most places (gym, groceries, booze) after work and on weekends, do you?

I don't have a bike but I do run from and to the gym. I do groceries with my car since I don't think I can carry 5-7 bags 15 blocks home. I can't walk to work since it would probably take me about 1.5-2hours each way, and NO I would not run/jog to work since I need to wear a suit to work and taking a shower at work is not an option.

[PavelGTR]

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

I never said I wanted to run them over, I said there's going to be one person out there with road rage that probably will, there are a couple RS members that probably will .

[B-DiZzLe]

Originally Posted by Livre

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by taylor192

I'll give you a little hint: we live in a socialist society, not capitalism, and not libertarian. The rich pay for the poor, and those who do bad things for society (drive, smoke, drink, ...) subsidize those who do good things (walk, eat healthy, ...)

Commie spotted.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by taylor192

If their protests keep Vancouver from becoming like LA, then I'm all for it. Vancouver is one of the most bike friendly cities in North America, and that certainly wasn't cause of people like you that would prefer to run them over.

I have spent enough time in LA to know I'd never move there. > 1 hr commutes, no thanks. Why are the commutes so long? Lets see.... could be cars.... lack of public transit... lack of alternative transportation... wait, what is Critical Mass protesting about... oh ya, all those things so Vancouver doesn't turn into another LA.

That's silly. Vancouver is not and will never be LA. We don't have 13M ppl, 100s of freeways, bad city planning, or that type of sprawl. Bikes aren't a solution anyhow. We have 4 months of bikeable weather.

Your fight should be with the city planners in the suburbs and in areas that haven't been built yet. Vancouver (the City) isn't going to empty out. Restricting parking spots DT is way more effective than anything they're doing, that is, if what you mentioned is truly their goal, which i doubt.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Ferra

You are not very bright, are you? How about you think through what exactly you wrote here?

Apparently you cannot read or comprehend, please don't make comments on who's intelligent, you certainly are not.

Originally Posted by Ferra

You didn't disprove anything, all you are saying is that in our society, often 10% of the people pays for 90% of the expenses, which is very true.
But for you guys, instead of appreciating these top 10% money payers, you think you somehow DESERVED to receive these benefits for free.

Where do the CM people state they deserve the benefits? Stay on topic, you're stretching to TRY and make a point, yet you're not doing a very good job.

Originally Posted by Ferra

And you are also missing the point here. We the drivers who are the top 10% money payers didn't mind giving you freeriders access to use the infrastructure we paid for. After all, like you said, we live in a socialist society and the rich supports the poor.

That is if you ignore that income/property tax actually pay for the infrastructure, yet you need to ignore that to make your point. Too bad it also invalidates your point. So, now that we've established that income/property tax pays for infrastructure, what's your next stretch?

Originally Posted by Ferra

But instead of just using these infrastructure, you people actually have the nerve to purposefully block and cause great inconvenience to the rest of the people.

Yes its an inconvenience, yet my commute to work would be so much faster without all those people purposely going to work, driving vehicles by themselves.

You're the type of person who would oppose HOV lanes, cause they cut back on the lanes for most of the drivers and only benefit a few... if only they opened the HOV lanes to everyone, traffic would move much better, right?

Its the same ill-conceived logic.

Originally Posted by Ferra

we don't hate you because you are freeriders and you are using the infrastructure for free.

Then why are you being a drama queen and continuing the money argument? Do you like being ignorant?

Originally Posted by Ferra

We hate you because you people "purposefully" cause great inconvenience to the rest of the society.

Lots of rights have been won by protesting and inconveniencing people. Read a history book.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by goo3

That's silly. Vancouver is not and will never be LA. We don't have 13M ppl, 100s of freeways, bad city planning, or that type of sprawl. Bikes aren't a solution anyhow. We have 4 months of bikeable weather.

Your fight should be with the city planners in the suburbs and in areas that haven't been built yet. Vancouver (the City) isn't going to empty out. Restricting parking spots DT is way more effective than anything they're doing, that is, if what you mentioned is truly their goal, which i doubt.

We have 2M people and Surrey is becoming the next biggest city in Canada.
We don't have freeways, which will make sprawl that much worse.

Biking isn't the solution, yet its part of the solution.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

Commie spotted.

Hardly, I'm a conservative from Ontario, I hate that crap. Like I said, I'd rather keep my tax dollars.

I recognize Canada is socialist, I won't pretend its not with some rant about "we pay for roads, we get to use them".

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

WRONG, I just think they're protesting the wrong way

You stat I'm wrong then agree with me.

I think they are protesting in the wrong way too.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

I don't mind sharing the road with bikes as long as they're in their own lane

They have as much of a right to the road as you do. They don't require their own lane, they can rightfully use the same lane you're in.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

My point is, why do they get to run reds when I don't? Why are they treated differently from me? Because they're annoying protesters?

I agree with you on this. Yet if they didn't run reds people would still be pissed at them. A large group of bikes is going to block traffic.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

They're not protesting for rights.

You need to read their mission statement.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

There are no major concerns about traffic in BC, plus we're buidling a new sky train for cummute.

Without the Olympics that would have never been built. People are not interested in paying for it with their tax dollars, since most, drive.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

I never said I wanted to run them over, I said there's going to be one person out there with road rage that probably will, there are a couple RS members that probably will .

and that person will go to jail for a very long time.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

Ask yourself how much the human population has grown in 3 decades.

More reason to explore alternative transportation.

Originally Posted by VancityPimp

I don't have a bike but I do run from and to the gym.

Good work!

[Ferra]

Originally Posted by goo3

That's silly. Vancouver is not and will never be LA. We don't have 13M ppl, 100s of freeways, bad city planning, or that type of sprawl. Bikes aren't a solution anyhow. We have 4 months of bikeable weather.

Your fight should be with the city planners in the suburbs and in areas that haven't been built yet. Vancouver (the City) isn't going to empty out. Restricting parking spots DT is way more effective than anything they're doing, that is, if what you mentioned is truly their goal, which i doubt.

I can't speak for all Critical mass participant, but I've talked to a few personally. None of the people I talk to were really there for the cause. Most of them just thought it is a fun thing to do to ride in a big group.

If you switch the form of protest from riding in a group to sitting on the road (doing the same thing - blocking traffic), I am sure less than 10% of the current "protester" will continue doing it since it will not longer be a "fun" thing to do.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by taylor192

and that person will go to jail for a very long time.

If some protestor should put their hands on my car, I would gladly take the assault charge. It would be worth it.

[Supafly]

Originally Posted by Great68

If some protestor should put their hands on my car, I would gladly take the assault charge. It would be worth it.

i agree....

hitting them with a car =

assault + assault with a deadly weapon + intent to harm. = no jail time if you're a first time offender + a minimal 500 dollar fine if you get into trouble for probational period....maybe probation and 1 yr sentence if you're a repeat offender.


Getting out of your car =

just assault...

just get out and single out the one guy.. = court date, a scold from the judge, and 2500 dollars to your lawyer.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Great68

If some protestor should put their hands on my car, I would gladly take the assault charge. It would be worth it.

Lookup how many things you get excluded from when you have a criminal record, then come back and say this again tough guy.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by taylor192

Lookup how many things you get excluded from when you have a criminal record, then come back and say this again tough guy.

Meh. The chances that I'd get acquitted for being provoked are high.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Great68

Meh. The chances that I'd get acquitted for being provoked are high.

Yep, you're definitely joking. Keep up the talk tough guy!

[sulos]

I am glad I don't go downtown when CM is riding around. I forgot one friday but I was lucky because they were coming around to where I was. I just turned right and kept going to where I wanted to go.

waiting 2 minutes while retards like taylor ride by isn't such a big problem for me but if they started to touch or damage my car that would be a different story.

I am just going to stay away and wait to see the news when one of them gets run over.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by taylor192

Yep, you're definitely joking. Keep up the talk tough guy!

Try me pansy ass.

Takes quite a bit to get me angry, but touching my car would set me off immediately.