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Police Forum Police Head Mod: Skidmark
Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 08-10-2009, 06:42 PM   #1
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Does red mean stop first for advance turn arrows?

Just wondering, many times in the left turn bays with the advance left turn arrow, if both directions have it activated, the arrow turns on when the light is red.

In this case, if you happen to just enter the left turn bay, do you need to STOP first at the stop line before turning?

Similarly, for right turns, some streets like First Ave westbound turning right onto Commercial, have right turn arrows when the light is red if the cross street has the protected left turn. So if you approach the intersection while the arrow is flashing do you still have to stop at the line first, THEN turn?

I am just curious as to what the actual rules are. Nobody really stops first as it seems unnecessary and pisses off the people behind you who want to turn in time.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:59 PM   #2
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Simple...if you have a red light facing your direction of travel, you must stop until it is legal to proceed. If you have a geen light/arrow, you may proceed without stopping as you have the right of way.. If the flashing green turn arrow stops flashing and you now just have a regular green light facing you and you are turning, yield to other traffic and proceed when safe.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:45 PM   #3
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So if you have a red light facing you, AND the flashing green arrow, as you approach the intersection, legally you're required to stop first?
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXQBLGH View Post
So if you have a red light facing you, AND the flashing green arrow, as you approach the intersection, legally you're required to stop first?
that green light is signaling the left turn lane drivers to proceed. If you are in the left turn lane and it's flashing the green arrow to turn I wouldn't stop as I approach the intersection unless it was unsafe to do so.

All other lanes abide by the red light. That's how i'm interpreting this
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:29 PM   #5
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Correct. Short lesson...red stop, green go. With all these very basic questions coming up I had better make sure I go over the beginner's basics in all my rider training classes.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:15 PM   #6
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left turn flashing you just go even if on top of the flashing left is a solid red (peds shouldnt be walking across..but some still do so watch out)

but for right turn on solid red you have to come to a complete stop cause there will be peds crossing.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:34 PM   #7
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^no I'm aware of right turns on solid reds. I'm talking about right turns on red with the right turn arrow flashing.

Zulu says you treat it simple, red means stop, green means go.
But he also agreed with J-Chow who said you don't need to if there's an arrow

That's what's confusing me.

At the risk of adding to the confusion let me restate this:

1.
When I enter the left turn lane, if it's a red light but I see the green arrow flashing for the protected left turn, I don't stop and just go and turn.
Am I doing the right thing?

2.
I'm driving on First Ave westbound, and I approach Commercial Dr. It's a red light BUT there's a protected RIGHT TURN arrow (this occurs when Commercial has the protected LEFT turn). I do the same thing as above. I just enter the intersection without stopping (I DO slow down though) and turn right. NO pedestrians are crossing because they aren't supposed to.
Am I doing the right thing?

if "red means stop" then that means I'm breaking the law in both cases...

Last edited by E=mc˛; 08-10-2009 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:52 PM   #8
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You're doing the right thing in both cases.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:53 PM   #9
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when the right turn light is flashing at you..dioes the oncoming traffic have their left turn light flashing at them at the same time?

I dont remember...
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:58 PM   #10
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It might depend on the intersection, but in general, I would think not.
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:34 PM   #11
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You're doing the right thing in both cases.
That's what I thought and is what I see done everyday. I'm just curious as to whether the law says anything about having to stop first since it's a red light.

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when the right turn light is flashing at you..dioes the oncoming traffic have their left turn light flashing at them at the same time?
If you have the protected right turn, it's impossible for oncoming to have a left turn. This is because the CROSS STREET has the protected LEFT turn at the same time you have your right turn arrow.

See pic here

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8014/dfdfdfdk.jpg

blue cars are the cross street, they have the protected left turn. That is why me (red car) has the protected right.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:43 AM   #12
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That's what I thought and is what I see done everyday. I'm just curious as to whether the law says anything about having to stop first since it's a red light.
You don't have a red light. You have right of way because of the advance turn arrow. I think you're overthinking things here.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:47 AM   #13
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I don't recall in my icbc driving study guide that you are required to come to a complete stop in your situation. This is mainly due to the fact that most protected left and right turn signals have their own designated lanes for turning only.

You'll either see the signs painted on the floor, or posted signs on the sidewalk that designate them as either a left turn or right turn lane ONLY.

But of course be aware there are those signs that show a no right turn on reds. (these are the ones that you have to stop and cannot turn until it hits green)

I think when zulu stated "red means stop and green means go", you have to take into account the literal meaning with regards to protected left and right turns. So you are correct in both scenarios. Just don't be confuddled by it.
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:20 AM   #14
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So if you have a red light facing you, AND the flashing green arrow, as you approach the intersection, legally you're required to stop first?
You either have the right of way or you don't. There's not two signals that apply to you at once.

Green means go. But watch out for peds.
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:17 AM   #15
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The flashing green directrional turn arrow means you are permitted to turn without stopping. That is why it is a flashing green. You will be in a "protected" turn zone as long as the green arrow is flashing. The intersection setup and lighting sequencing would have to be set up to permit this happening.
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:53 AM   #16
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Simple...if you have a red light facing your direction of travel, you must stop until it is legal to proceed. If you have a geen light/arrow, you may proceed without stopping as you have the right of way.. If the flashing green turn arrow stops flashing and you now just have a regular green light facing you and you are turning, yield to other traffic and proceed when safe.
See I interpreted this as, if you have the green light AND arrow (ie. Advance green). So you never really addressed "red light + arrow".

Note, I'm not trying to be a dick lol I appreciate your time zulu. I'm just pointing out why I was confused and so the reason why this thread was longer than it needed to be.

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Old 08-11-2009, 10:58 AM   #17
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if there is a green arrow for left or right turn and you stop, you will be hearing a horn from me real soon. Just like the idiots that are turning right at a red light with no arrow but there are no cars and they still wait for the green light....pisses me off. Giving them the horn doesn't do anything either. How do these people get their drivers lisence? Must of bought it from the richmond icbc for $50
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:04 PM   #18
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Sometimes there is a green turn arrow AND a green "normal" light...that means you get to advance turn to the left and other traffic can go straight ahead. The cars facing you will likely have a red light displayed to you. Think of the flashing green displayed over red as your permission to "disobey " the red stop light and make the turn. Otherwise, as discussed as above. Hope I'm clearer now ? BTW saleman...the cost for those illegal DLs were in the thousands of $$$...not $50. The $50 ones come with a McDonalds McHappy Meal.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:24 PM   #19
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Just to add to this topic, some people don't seem to know that if there is a designated traffic light for left turns, and that is red, even though the thru-traffic is green, you still cannot do the left turn. Example is from Boundary onto Kingsway. I see people turning as if the light wasn't there sometimes. They don't seem to understand that the red light is telling you that you can't do the left turn even though the light for thru-traffic is green.
Another case I see too is the advanced left turn light (ie. the one that has a left turn arrow underneath the green light). I've seen some people miss the left turn light and instead of going into the intersection to turn when it is safe, they just sit at the line and wait for the advanced left turn light to turn on again on the next cycle. That's annoying and it holds up traffic, especially if the coast is clear.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:26 PM   #20
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zulu,
yep I'm aware of the advance green. As I said, in your initial reply you didn't address the "red light + arrow" scenario. that's why I asked further. You did, however, address it in post #15. it's all good

and salesman, as I said, I know what you're supposed to do. I was just curious as to whether the law still requires that red means stop first. Kinda like how most of us just learned recently that "leaving the highway" != turning left into a gas station or store parking lot across the yellow line.

Technicalities. Minute details that people might not know about (not that ignorance of this would be a big deal).

I'm glad to hear there's no such requirement to stop first as it clearly doesn't make sense to.

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Old 08-11-2009, 01:29 PM   #21
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Another case I see too is the advanced left turn light (ie. the one that has a left turn arrow underneath the green light). I've seen some people miss the left turn light and instead of going into the intersection to turn when it is safe, they just sit at the line and wait for the advanced left turn light to turn on again on the next cycle. That's annoying and it holds up traffic, especially if the coast is clear.
I see this too, and it's really stupid and annoying. If they had just waited in the middle, the car behind him woulda been able to make the turn too.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:17 PM   #22
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BTW saleman...the cost for those illegal DLs were in the thousands of $$$...not $50. The $50 ones come with a McDonalds McHappy Meal.
I have heard from someone that they only paid $50 to get it. Maybe they are friends or something. Who knows. That's just what I heard. Does that still go on? im sure it does...Maybe the price went upto thousands now but I heard this like 6-7 years ago for the $50. Probably because people wern't getting caught then.

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Just to add to this topic, some people don't seem to know that if there is a designated traffic light for left turns, and that is red, even though the thru-traffic is green, you still cannot do the left turn. Example is from Boundary onto Kingsway. I see people turning as if the light wasn't there sometimes. They don't seem to understand that the red light is telling you that you can't do the left turn even though the light for thru-traffic is green.
Another case I see too is the advanced left turn light (ie. the one that has a left turn arrow underneath the green light). I've seen some people miss the left turn light and instead of going into the intersection to turn when it is safe, they just sit at the line and wait for the advanced left turn light to turn on again on the next cycle. That's annoying and it holds up traffic, especially if the coast is clear.
This one really pisses me off too. And even when you give them the horn, they give you the WTF look? uhhhh damn...also, sometimes I get people that don't move up and when the light turns yellow, they go and im stuck. WTF.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:55 PM   #23
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As I was not involved in the investigation I'm not sure of the details. I'm sure a google will bring them to light. I seem to remember the figure of $2500 per DL.I'm aware of other places around BC where insiders were selling fake DLs and IDs to organized crime folks. Once you got a DL you can get just about anything....and not just in Canada either.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:00 PM   #24
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Jeremy Stothers, ctvbc.ca

A Vancouver man who had previously failed seven road tests has been convicted of trying to bribe an ICBC driving examiner.

Kim Hen Huynh was fined $1,000 for attempting to bribe the examiner at the Burnaby ICBC Drivers Services Centre. He had just found out he failed again in his eighth attempt at gaining his licence and pulled out four $100 bills.

"Happy birthday! Can you help me?" Huynh said, handing his examiner the money, according to evidence provided in court. The examiner immediately reported the incident to his supervisor.

Huynh pleaded guilty to bribery but asked for conditional sentencing, which the judge flatly refused.

Judges usually grant a conditional sentence if they are satisfied that the guilty person won't be a danger to their community.

"With its decision, the court is sending a clear signal that this kind of behaviour will not be tolerated, and that this is a serious offence," said Steven Tripp, ICBC's manager for fraud prevention.

ICBC spokesperson Adam Grossman says instances of bribery are rare, and there should be no good reason to resort to bribing an instructor.

"If someone's failing their road test eight times, there is probably a good chance that they're not doing their homework beforehand," said Grossman.

Last year, a Richmond driving instructor was convicted of fraud for rigging driver's tests at a charge of up to $8,000 per licence, of which he paid an ICBC driving examiner about $500.
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