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Police Forum Police Head Mod: Skidmark
Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 06-17-2010, 12:25 AM   #1
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Officer asked to look under the hood, is this a "search"

I just got pulled over tonight for speeding and the officer was really concerned if i was running a Cat. or not
he asks me if i was running one and i told him i wasn't sure.
he kneels on the floor and looks, then he asks me to open the hood, I ask him if this is a search, because I am not allowing him to search my car. his answer was that he is not searching my car but checking my car. and that i must open it for him, so i didn't want to make a big deal out of it, so i opened it for him.

long story short, he said he couldn't find a Cat.
gave me a speeding ticket(146-1), and said my vehicle was not equipped. in compliant with MVA, MVAR (219- 1)

he also gave me a "notice and order" slip
he noted "no cat. *must be inspected at Richmond Acura per MVAR"
is the officer allowed to specify witch garage i need to get a VI? this dose not sound right!

got my car towed to a towing company, he said that i could go and get my car anytime, and that I needed to take it to Richmond acura for a VI

he also took my plates

if anyone that is familiar with the law, plz reply or give me a PM
i can share with you the entire story, and see what your professional opinion is.
thank you

also, can the officer accurately determine my speed if both cars were going in the opposite direction?
would this even be reasonable for him to pull me over?
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Last edited by PK-EK; 06-17-2010 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:40 AM   #2
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Wait, why does he need to open your hood to check if you have cats in there

Also if he knew better the smell would give it away
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:48 AM   #3
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i shut off the engine before he came out from his car.
some of the new cars like the civics with the R18s have the cat basically in the engine bay, right after the block
this officer knew what he was looking for.
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:04 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PK-EK View Post
also, can the officer accurately determine my speed if both cars were going in the opposite direction?
would this even be reasonable for him to pull me over?
Yes, if I'm not mistaken I believe police have radar guns mounted to the dash and calibrated to determine the speed of oncoming vehicles. You can dispute the ticket if it's a big one, but I doubt you'll win since this cop sounds like a hard-ass and I'm sure he'll show up in court.

To clarify, did you get a ticket for speeding, a ticket for not having a cat, and a VI? The VI and the "no cat" ticket (if you were issued one) are sort of redundant. You could probably argue for a fine reduction on the "no cat" ticket. If I were a judge, and I saw that you had to pay for the VI and the necessary repairs to your car, I'd probably reduce the fine for the actual ticket itself. Especially once I heard that the cop had your car towed.

Anyway, my real concern with your situation is twofold:

1) Why did he say you HAD to go to Richmond Acura? As far as I know a VI can be performed at any certified shop. Pretty sure he's wrong about this, and you can go wherever the hell you please. I remember a topic on this a while back (in this forum)... try searching perhaps.

(FYI, family-run places like "Bobs Garage" usually do a less thorough job, so you might get away with a burnt out bulb or something, but I don't think you'll be able to pass without a cat converter!)

2) Why did he take away your plates and have your car towed? I'm sure he is within his rights to do this, but it seems excessive given the nature of your offense. Not having a cat installed is usually the sort of thing that becomes an issue when you need to pass AirCare. I've never heard of a police officer seizing a vehicle because of this.

Good luck with your situation man, sounds like a real pain in the ass.

Last edited by Amaru; 06-17-2010 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:13 AM   #5
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Yes, if I'm not mistaken I believe police have radar guns mounted to the dash and calibrated to determine the speed of oncoming vehicles. You can dispute the ticket if it's a big one, but I doubt you'll win since this cop sounds like a hard-ass.

My concern with your situation is twofold:

1) Why did he say you HAD to go to Richmond Acura? As far as I know a VI can be performed at any certified shop.

(FYI, family-run places like "Bobs Garage" usually do a less thorough job, so you might get away with a burnt out bulb or something, but I don't think you'll be able to pass without a cat converter!)

2) Why did he take away your plates and have your car towed? I'm sure he is within his rights to do this, but it seems excessive given the nature of your offense. Not having a cat installed is usually the sort of thing that becomes an issue when you need to pass AirCare. I've never heard of a police officer seizing a vehicle because of this.

Good luck with your situation man, sounds like a real pain in the ass.
yes, so this is one of my main arguments
he states that I MUST go to Richmond acura.... and it says so on the notice and order slip.
i have a very hard time believing that he can actually tell me where i go to get a VI

if i do dispute this, dose this mean i can't drive my car until this is settled???
this is ridiculous!

I got 2 "offenses"
speeding
and
vehicle not equipped, in compliant with MVA, MVAR
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:21 AM   #6
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I would think if you have previous history with a said dealership/shop they would allow you to go to a different certified shop.

What if i ran over the owner of richmond acura's owner's dog? then he'd definitely have it in for me, and fail my car for having a tear in my seat, or something similar.
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:41 AM   #7
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Wait, why does he need to open your hood to check if you have cats in there

Also if he knew better the smell would give it away
cause the pig probably heard a meow coming from under the hood

Power trippin cop
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:44 AM   #8
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Wait, why does he need to open your hood to check if you have cats in there

Also if he knew better the smell would give it away
If your running non-stock exhaust manifold (headers )it may support his assumption of no cat or at least that the exhaust has been modified and needs further inspection..
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:12 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by PK-EK View Post
yes, so this is one of my main arguments
he states that I MUST go to Richmond acura.... and it says so on the notice and order slip.
i have a very hard time believing that he can actually tell me where i go to get a VI

if i do dispute this, dose this mean i can't drive my car until this is settled???
this is ridiculous!

I got 2 "offenses"
speeding
and
vehicle not equipped, in compliant with MVA, MVAR
As far as I know, you can't dispute a VI. IIRC, you must have it performed within 30 days or you'll be subject to huge fines. (Welcome to the police state we call British Columbia, where you have absolutely zero recourse for traffic-related offenses such as VI's and 24hr suspensions).

You can dispute both "offense" tickets, however, and you certainly should dispute the "vehicle not equipped" one and seek a reduction in the fine. Save the receipts from the VI and any labour related to the cat converter install, and take them to court with you. Argue that it cost X dollars for the repair and the VI, that you've learned your lesson, and that you can't afford the ticket AND the VI/repairs.

You'll be able to drive your car as soon as you pass the VI, you do not have to wait for the disputed tickets to be resolved. After you file a dispute, you'll receive a letter in the mail with a court hearing date and time. Usually the letter comes within 6-9 months after filing, and the court date will be another few months after that. If you fail to show up in court or you lose the court case, the outstanding fines are due immediately*.

* "Immediately" means that you won't be able to renew your license until they're paid, so you may not have to pay for another few months after that. I got a ticket in Dec of 2006, disputed it, got a court date mailed to me 12 months later... the court date was Mar 16 2008. I eventually paid the fine in October of 2008 when I renewed my license, nearly 2 years after the offense.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:25 AM   #10
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As far as vehicle inspections go, you can bring them to any certified shop.

The only time you go to a specific shop is when there is a court order for it.

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As far as I know, you can't dispute a VI. IIRC, you must have it performed within 30 days or you'll be subject to huge fines. (Welcome to the police state we call British Columbia, where you have absolutely zero recourse for traffic-related offenses such as VI's and 24hr suspensions).
Looks like he got a box 2 which is immediate removal of vehicle off the road. Sadly I got that twice with in less than a month.

EDIT: box 1 meant!
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:59 AM   #11
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Looks like he got a box 2 which is immediate removal of vehicle off the road. Sadly I got that twice with in less than a month.
Brutal.

I actually got two VI's in a week. I told the second cop I'd been given a VI a week prior, and I assured him I'd have it done within the 30-day window. He decided that 30 days was "far too long" and told me I should have already had it done... so he issued me a ticket for no front plate and another for front window tint, and made me bring my car to the police station within 7 days and prove to him I'd removed the tint and put the front plate back on.

VI's are incredibly frustrating.
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:29 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Amaru View Post
1) Why did he say you HAD to go to Richmond Acura? As far as I know a VI can be performed at any certified shop. Pretty sure he's wrong about this, and you can go wherever the hell you please. I remember a topic on this a while back (in this forum)... try searching perhaps.

(FYI, family-run places like "Bobs Garage" usually do a less thorough job, so you might get away with a burnt out bulb or something, but I don't think you'll be able to pass without a cat converter!)
This has actually been debated fairly regularly in here, specifically over the wording of the regulation the cops seem to go on. One poster has claimed to know and have spoken to the person who originally wrote that section, and says it was NOT intended to allow the cops to specify the inspection shop. Other cops have chimed in and said they do it because they know some shops are shady and will pass anything for money.

FWIW, even if the cop doesn't specify, it still has to be a *DESIGNATED INSPECTION FACILITY*, which means they're supposed to know what to inspect and the level to inspect it to... so you can't just go to any little "Bob's Garage".
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:13 AM   #13
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ok
thanks for your output guys!
so i'm going to go to Richmond Acura once i believe my car is ready. get everything done, then keep all my receipts and dispute the "Vehicle not equipped in compliant with MVA, MVAR" offense.

should i bother with disputing my speeding offense?
i don't think i can get away with it.

also, will I need to get my SRS light fixed before i go in for a VI?

Last edited by PK-EK; 06-17-2010 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:16 AM   #14
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As far as I know, you can't dispute a VI. IIRC, you must have it performed within 30 days or you'll be subject to huge fines. (Welcome to the police state we call British Columbia, where you have absolutely zero recourse for traffic-related offenses such as VI's and 24hr suspensions).

You can dispute both "offense" tickets, however, and you certainly should dispute the "vehicle not equipped" one and seek a reduction in the fine. Save the receipts from the VI and any labour related to the cat converter install, and take them to court with you. Argue that it cost X dollars for the repair and the VI, that you've learned your lesson, and that you can't afford the ticket AND the VI/repairs.

You'll be able to drive your car as soon as you pass the VI, you do not have to wait for the disputed tickets to be resolved. After you file a dispute, you'll receive a letter in the mail with a court hearing date and time. Usually the letter comes within 6-9 months after filing, and the court date will be another few months after that. If you fail to show up in court or you lose the court case, the outstanding fines are due immediately*.

* "Immediately" means that you won't be able to renew your license until they're paid, so you may not have to pay for another few months after that. I got a ticket in Dec of 2006, disputed it, got a court date mailed to me 12 months later... the court date was Mar 16 2008. I eventually paid the fine in October of 2008 when I renewed my license, nearly 2 years after the offense.
I would like to seek more than a reduction in the fine, i would like to have all of my money back, the cost of towing, the towing yard charges, towing to acura, and VI
I believe that it was he issued this VI to me on an unreasonable grounds

he claims i was going 88 in a 50 zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeRNammer View Post
As far as vehicle inspections go, you can bring them to any certified shop.

The only time you go to a specific shop is when there is a court order for it.



Looks like he got a box 2 which is immediate removal of vehicle off the road. Sadly I got that twice with in less than a month.
he specifically said to go to Richmond acura on my "notice and order"
this isn't right, he shouldn't be allowed to tell me what shop to go to
this is biest! he is just saying that all the other certified mechanic with out of province inspection license are shady....
this is a Box 1
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:57 AM   #15
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I believe that it was he issued this VI to me on an unreasonable grounds
Do you have a cat?

If not, it was issued on reasonable grounds. Your car should not be on the road without one and was towed accordingly.

I am going to assume you don't have one, cause your language suggests your hiding something. The car is probably modified and you know there is no cat.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:59 AM   #16
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Brutal.

I actually got two VI's in a week. I told the second cop I'd been given a VI a week prior, and I assured him I'd have it done within the 30-day window. He decided that 30 days was "far too long" and told me I should have already had it done... so he issued me a ticket for no front plate and another for front window tint, and made me bring my car to the police station within 7 days and prove to him I'd removed the tint and put the front plate back on.

VI's are incredibly frustrating.
LOL you're running without a front plate and front tint - you don't get to complain about VIs - you're basically driving around asking for one.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:08 AM   #17
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Do you have a cat?

If not, it was issued on reasonable grounds. Your car should not be on the road without one and was towed accordingly.

I am going to assume you don't have one, cause your language suggests your hiding something. The car is probably modified and you know there is no cat.
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........
long story short, he said he couldn't find a Cat.
..........
it shouldn't matter if i do or do not
why do you think so many people get away with growing weed in their house? cuz the police do not have an reasonable grounds to search the house. they need evidence before to prove first.
how long have you been on the force for?
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:00 AM   #18
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Front tint is reasonable grounds for him to give you a VI, and it didn't take a search for him to see it. Would you grow your weed in a flower pot sitting on your front porch?
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:04 AM   #19
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it shouldn't matter if i do or do not
why do you think so many people get away with growing weed in their house? cuz the police do not have an reasonable grounds to search the house. they need evidence before to prove first.
how long have you been on the force for?
So you're not running a cat and are hiding behind search and seizure laws.

You've already been corrected in this thread, lets not make it three times.

RVA 25.08

Quote:
Notifications and orders

25.08 (1) Despite an inspection certificate being in force, the director or a peace officer may, on having reasonable and probable grounds to believe that a vehicle may not comply with the standards, notify the owner or operator of a vehicle to present it for inspection to a designated inspection facility within the period set out in the notification.

(2) The director or a peace officer may order the owner or operator of a vehicle, in respect of which no inspection certificate is in force, to surrender to either of them the vehicle licence or the number plates, or both, for that vehicle.
The officer asked you if it had a cat and you could not give a concrete answer. The officer checked under the car and could not find one. That satisfies reasonable and probable cause.

Grow up.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:08 AM   #20
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it shouldn't matter if i do or do not
Ah yes, the usual excuses, excuses, excuses... I love this forum!

And now you find out.. oh no, it's illegal. The police enforce the laws, and you are the one breaking them. How surprised some kids like you get...

And of course, good ol' XtC-604 spouting his usual trash mouth.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:32 AM   #21
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The officer asked you if it had a cat and you could not give a concrete answer. The officer checked under the car and could not find one. That satisfies reasonable and probable cause.

Grow up.
Given that pretty much every car made in the last, oh, FORTY YEARS, has had emission controls FROM THE FACTORY, including a catalytic converter... saying you "don't know" whether your car has a cat is pretty much admitting that it doesn't. :noob:
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:42 AM   #22
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i had an officer ask me to pop the hood once. i had nothing to hide so i complied.

he asked me if i had a NOS intake
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:42 AM   #23
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Won’t be able to reference precedent here, but both your trunk, and engine bay are considered locked areas of your vehicle, and thus subject to the same “privacy” rights as the interior of your vehicle; What ever you can see from the outside is fair game.

Only what an officer is able to observe externally is able to provide grounds for requesting a search and only if specific conditions are met.

They may only search (if you are not under arrest or have given permission) if they have reasonable grounds to believe you have committed a CRIMINAL offense. Traffic and regulation offenses are obviously not criminal, therefore there is no reason, and no requirement to allow them to search any private areas.

You would have likely still received have the VI, but his basis for this would have only been on his external vehicle observations.

The one caveat is that you complied, plain and simple. You gave him permission. You could argue coercion, but best of luck.


Of course, this is open to correction. I await more childish replies from the "Got What You Deserve" audience.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:43 AM   #24
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Ah yes, the usual excuses, excuses, excuses... I love this forum!

And now you find out.. oh no, it's illegal. The police enforce the laws, and you are the one breaking them. How surprised some kids like you get...

And of course, good ol' XtC-604 spouting his usual trash mouth.
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Given that pretty much every car made in the last, oh, FORTY YEARS, has had emission controls FROM THE FACTORY, including a catalytic converter... saying you "don't know" whether your car has a cat is pretty much admitting that it doesn't. :noob:
Jlenko, go drive your fwd cavalier thinking its hotshit and gtfo, the cop was obviously on a power trip, like most of them are to modified cars.

Soundy, most newer cars produce less emissions than cars of the 90s, or early 2000s even without a cat. But thats besides the point.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:47 AM   #25
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You would have likely still received have the VI, but his basis for this would have only been on his external vehicle observations.
x2

Even a cat on a header downpipe is visible if you look under the car (unless it is slammed and you cannot get under the car).

The DriveClean program in Ontario even runs roadside checks with mirrors to look under the car. So don't think cause you deny them to pop your hood you are getting off.

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The one caveat is that you complied, plain and simple. You gave him permission. You could argue coercion, but best of luck.
The judge might reduce the fine, yet that's about it.

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Of course, this is open to correction. I await more childish replies from the "Got What You Deserve" audience.
Where would those posts be? I only see the childish "I know I'm wrong, yet how do I get off?" posts.
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