HST: Going to Cost us more.

[sunny_j]

Originally Posted by PDA_86

My parents were talking the other day about raising the prices on our food menu in our shop. Now for a decent lunchbox would cost someone $8.00 instead of $6.50.

whats the shop called?

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

My 10 year old daughter already wears women's small clothing.
Are her clothes a luxury? Her shoes?

School supplies were previously exempt. Are those luxuries?

Any groceries beyond absolute staples (bread, milk, eggs, meat, produce, flour) are now taxed with both taxes. Congradulations you want to eat anything prepared at all, need some tomato sauce for your pasta? You pay HST now. Want some spices for your steak? That too.

Summer camp for kids? Sports programs for children? All previously only 5% tax now 12%. That's enough to break the bank and make the differance between parents being able to afford to have thier kids be in sports and not. Especially if they have more then one. And in the land of fat kids, I don't consider swimming lessons and soccar camp luxuries. They're important.

I think the notion that this is a "luxury" tax is absolutely insane. As is the idea that it's only going to cost the average family "$500" a year. I'm looking at $500 between now and September. For one child.

For single folks that might not sound like a lot. For me that's a good chunk of change in the time of year where my expenses are at their highest already.

Sorry dude, I assume this forum is mostly young people without families so like you point out, they would be affected very little outside of the typical luxuries.

As for your sob story - save the tears. 7% is not going to break the bank for sending your kid to summer camp. If $500 is 7% extra, you're spending $7100 on that one child, or $2K/mn between now and Sept! If you can afford to spend like that, you're making enough you can afford to pay your fair of tax on these programs.

So you're either lying about who much $500 affects you, or about it being $500. Take your pick, either makes your point moot.

PS: I eat mostly fresh food, very little prepared other than pasta and sauce which is such a small portion of my grocery spending it will not affect me. For the unheathly person who eats all processed/frozen crap, they should be forced to pay tax on it.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Yc

Yes sports and travel could be luxuries, but for ratio sake its far smaller than food comsumption, but gov't cant just tax the rich, b/c they need money from them, so instead they just do it on everyone

Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes.

I support consumption taxes like the HST. Want to pay less tax - consume less. It is about time we punish those who spend, we cannot continue an economy based on 70% retail spending and mounting debt - it will eventually collapse under its own weight.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by taylor192

Sorry dude, I assume this forum is mostly young people without families so like you point out, they would be affected very little outside of the typical luxuries.

As for your sob story - save the tears. 7% is not going to break the bank for sending your kid to summer camp. If $500 is 7% extra, you're spending $7100 on that one child, or $2K/mn between now and Sept! If you can afford to spend like that, you're making enough you can afford to pay your fair of tax on these programs.

So you're either lying about who much $500 affects you, or about it being $500. Take your pick, either makes your point moot.

PS: I eat mostly fresh food, very little prepared other than pasta and sauce which is such a small portion of my grocery spending it will not affect me. For the unheathly person who eats all processed/frozen crap, they should be forced to pay tax on it.

All-day day care can cost between $500-$2000/month for one child, depending where in the GVRD you live. While some of it can be subsidized by the government, it's often cheaper for parents to send their kids to summer camp. As a result of the high costs of day care, parent(s) are now paying an extra tax in order to find a cheaper alternative. And yes, while it's often lighter on the wallet to do summer camp, that extra money parents were able to save would now be quickly gobbled up by the extra tax.

[TheNewGirl]

Originally Posted by Lomac

All-day day care can cost between $500-$2000/month for one child, depending where in the GVRD you live. While some of it can be subsidized by the government, it's often cheaper for parents to send their kids to summer camp. As a result of the high costs of day care, parent(s) are now paying an extra tax in order to find a cheaper alternative. And yes, while it's often lighter on the wallet to do summer camp, that extra money parents were able to save would now be quickly gobbled up by the extra tax.

Exactly.

Look at right now. I either pay $200/week for all daycare (daycare's still taxfree). Instead I have sent my child to summer camp. Away camp is about $200/week through the cub scouts, and day camp which is about $150 and gives me a $50 break a week that I use that.

Camp is now (with taxes) $224 and day camp now $168. Right there for the 10 weeks of child care I need to cover over the course of the summer that's costing me 24 x 3 = 72, 18 x 7 = 126.... so just in child care/activities alone $198. When you're talking childcare for the summer being between 1500 and 2000 PER child, a $198 increase per kid is a big big deal.

I have absolutely no idea how families with more then one child survive the summers.

Taylor> You said you dared anyone to come up with anything not a luxury that it effects. I gave you a list. One day you'll have kids too. I don't imagine you'll be so blaise about it all.

Oh though for our younger members... tuition and text books. University just got that much more expensive.

[adambomb]

Can any of you anti-HST supporters give me an idea of how the gov't can collect revenue without the HST? Our population is growing and our service needs are also growing. Show me a major metropolitan city in Canada that has shown a decrease in population.

Can you also give me a list of services you are willing to see cut if the HST does not pass? Perhaps more cuts to public schools, or less money spent on our highway infrastructure (traffic jams are fun). How abouts cuts to old age pensions since the its seems many of our parents are approaching the retirement age. Let's cut their benefits before they are able to cash them in. So when they are too old and weak to work, they'll all have to move back in with us, their kids. The same kids who just spent $300,000 on a 2bd apartment.

Stop looking at the pennies your are losing from increased costs at kids camp and look at the economical benefits in the long run. In the long run, the HST will benefit the people who mean the most to you....Your kids.

[Amuse]

For stores, like one that sells Chinese home made frozen dim sum, that charge no tax now, will they charge any tax after July 1st?

[orange7]

Originally Posted by Amuse

For stores, like one that sells Chinese home made frozen dim sum, that charge no tax now, will they charge any tax after July 1st?

probably just increase the price and keep the additional earning, after all it is ran by Chinese.

[TheNewGirl]

adambomb that is NOT why the Government origionally said it needed the HST. Infact initially they tried to claim it was revenue neutral and that it's only benifit was in lowering busines costs and attracting new business.

I do understand how it will do this, by essentially neutralizing the provincial tax from a business to business point of view, it's put BC on equal footing with Alberta when it comes to businesses deciding where to locate their offices on the west coast. This is the biggest (perhaps only) benifit of the HST. It will create jobs. This is true. In the very next 10 years though, job shortage is unlikely to be a problem given the retirement projections. Infact in BC we're projected to have over 20%+ of our population over retirement age inside this decade.

The Liberal government has also shifted the provincial economy away from goods and trade and towards a heavier focus on a tourism & service base and then installed a tax that hampers exactly that - this makes absolutely no financial sense to me. If they were focusing on attracting industry and production the HST would make a great deal more sense (as it does in Ont.). I don't know if anyone knows the projected impact on the tourism industry (yes travel is a luxury but many in this province make their bread and butter from those who travel), I'm curious to see it.

Regardless of their claims it's undeniable the government of BC will gain additional revenue from the implimentation of the HST. Both from the 1.9 billion they took from the federal government and the additional goods now subject to the provincial portion of the HST.

Are they spending more on education because of it? No. They're cutting bugets. Recently the provincial government negotiated a wage increase for the teachers union even and neglected to increase funding for the schools who have to pay it to compensate them for it. The province would be better served letting individual districts negotiate with the teachers, or at least not hamstringing the school districts by knowingly increasing thier costs without increasing thier funding accordingly.

Are they spending more on Health Care because of it? No. They're cutting bugets. The province would be better served reducing the massive duplication of costs between fraser and vancouver coastal health and amalgamating them then forcing them, having reduced combined over head, to actually adhere to their bugets.

Are they spending more on streets? Actually most of the large scale infostructure upgrades have been funded with either 1. Olympic money or 2. federal economic stimuli money. Municipalities, also, manage the maintanince of local road ways, funded via property taxes. This is not impacted by the HST.

Will the HST change old age pensions (I assume you mean CPP)? No those are federally managed not provincially. The federal government gets no extra $ due to the HST they just get to use it immediately which does impact short term/stimuli type spending but doesn't impact long term projects such as pensions. The money that goes into these come from you and your employer as well, not HST/PST/GST.

Do you know that the premire of BC makes more a year then the president of the United States (400K/year for Campbell, 300K/year for Obama). No private jet or white house but still, all his living/travel expenses are covered for his term. Do you know that many other civil servants make in that ballpark as well? As well as many of the heads of crown corperations (ICBC, BC Hydro, Work Safe, BC Ferries, Translink, The BC Liquor Commision... the list is long). Also our MLAs and MPs are running up 200 - 600K/year personal expenses that come out of our pockets?

The government could start by trimming the top 10% of civil servant's wages by 10%. That would literally save millions a year and be the fiscally responsible first move to balancing their buget. They've been demanding that we, those of us with the least money in the province tighten our belts yet they don't do so themselves. A guy is being paid 400K of YOUR money a year to lie to you about the fiscal reality of this province. That shouldn't be okay with you. It isn't okay with me.

And that's just economics, it doesn't even touch the ethical autrocity of a government believing they're a tier above the people they're suposed to be representing. Or bald faced lies that the liberal government have spewed in regards to their bringing about the HST.

/rant

[1exotic]

lol chill shawty

[_Hotsauce_]

Originally Posted by taylor192

I dare anyone here to name something that will cost more after HST other than eating out, sports and travel. These are all luxuries, which if you can afford them, you can afford to pay tax on them, and I'm surprised were not taxed previously.

These people are idiots and the media just as dumb for reporting it:

Bicycles and everything related to Bicycles are included. I rode a bike because it's so much faster and easier then commuting by bus or car , it doesn't pollute, it has much much lower maintenance costs per year, and it keeps me in shape. I am now paying tax on my mode of transportation.

Also, energy products like solar panels. "Because we wouldn't want people to get out of their cars and use solar power or anything" Lets tax it more and make it even less appealing to the public.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

fuck u HST, along with all these bullshit taxes


jesus

[MarkyMark]

If I made 400k a year I could give a fuck about the HST too, you just have to see the HST through Campbells eyes and wallet
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[Ducdesmo]

Originally Posted by taylor192

Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes.

I support consumption taxes like the HST. Want to pay less tax - consume less. It is about time we punish those who spend, we cannot continue an economy based on 70% retail spending and mounting debt - it will eventually collapse under its own weight.

Our income/debt ratio is at all time high because of easy credit/low interest rate. You have Carney (who used to work for Goldman Sachs) and Flaherty to thank for that. So you think taxing is the answer? We all pay our fair share in taxes already...everything ranging from your basic income tax to liquor to carbon tax (which is a complete tax grab BTW). Do you think you are driving less because of it? NO.

Do you think the Vancouverites will purchase less groceries due to HST? NO. Maybe the poor because they can't fuking afford to.

How about raising interest rates so people save? Consume less (import) and produce more (export)? Cut government spendings? Let the free market work and fuk any future bailouts.

G20 is coming in at close to 1 billion dollars for a 3 day scam and according to CSIS, there is a very low terrorist risk. The government also spend 2 billion dollars on a gun registry database system that some kid at UBC could have wrote as a school project. Harper and these politicians are blowing your hard earned money like nothing, and you think we need to pay more taxes to support such ventures. The propaganda is well underway and we will see an abundance of new tax laws underway as long as the majority are continually lead to believe we need it.

If you really want to know why our 10 year surplus streak has turned into a deficit, take a hard look at the kind of crap the Harper government is spending their money on and let me know if you still think we need the HST.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

I do understand how it will do this, by essentially neutralizing the provincial tax from a business to business point of view, it's put BC on equal footing with Alberta when it comes to businesses deciding where to locate their offices on the west coast. This is the biggest (perhaps only) benifit of the HST. It will create jobs. This is true. In the very next 10 years though, job shortage is unlikely to be a problem given the retirement projections. Infact in BC we're projected to have over 20%+ of our population over retirement age inside this decade.

In my personal opinion, the looming labour shortage will never materialize because boomers will be working until the day they die to maintain their lifestyles. Employers are no longer interested in hiring younger people and developing them - they instead contract out and hire retirees as consultants.

The Liberal government has also shifted the provincial economy away from goods and trade and towards a heavier focus on a tourism & service base and then installed a tax that hampers exactly that - this makes absolutely no financial sense to me. If they were focusing on attracting industry and production the HST would make a great deal more sense (as it does in Ont.). I don't know if anyone knows the projected impact on the tourism industry (yes travel is a luxury but many in this province make their bread and butter from those who travel), I'm curious to see it.

The focus of this government is resource development in the Peace River region as well as possibly off-shore drilling. Mining and petroleum companies will benefit from the HST, as well as foresters. In my opinion (and based on what I have seen because I happen to be a public servant myself), this will be the bread and butter of the BC economy.

Regardless of their claims it's undeniable the government of BC will gain additional revenue from the implimentation of the HST. Both from the 1.9 billion they took from the federal government and the additional goods now subject to the provincial portion of the HST.

Yep. Would you turn away 1.9 billion based on principle alone? I highly doubt it.

The government could start by trimming the top 10% of civil servant's wages by 10%. That would literally save millions a year and be the fiscally responsible first move to balancing their buget. They've been demanding that we, those of us with the least money in the province tighten our belts yet they don't do so themselves. A guy is being paid 400K of YOUR money a year to lie to you about the fiscal reality of this province. That shouldn't be okay with you. It isn't okay with me.

I understand where you're coming from and I am personally dismayed at the mis-management of various public agencies. But, we could easily have a debate about what's wrong with health care in this province (and country) without wading into budgets. And we could with the other public programs too.

Sure, skimming the salaries would save millions, but the provincial treasury needs billions, not millions which is why Campbell took the 1.9 billion from the feds to mitigate the deficit.

And that's just economics, it doesn't even touch the ethical autrocity of a government believing they're a tier above the people they're suposed to be representing. Or bald faced lies that the liberal government have spewed in regards to their bringing about the HST.

Okay, so you're going to vote the NDP in the next election?

If you really want to know why our 10 year surplus streak has turned into a deficit, take a hard look at the kind of crap the Harper government is spending their money on and let me know if you still think we need the HST.

Which is why cutting the GST was a terrible move in the long-term.

[Hehe]

The HST is simple. It's a neutral (arguably, see later part of my post) tax that shifts taxation from Businesses to consumers.

In a perfect economic point of view, businesses will lower the price (due to a lower cost+new competition) and whatever the consumer paid will be returned to their pocket eventually.

However, in real world, there are too many factors to consider. Would a business lower its price when having a lower cost? Possibly, but NEVER if the consumer is willing to pay for it. The reasoning is very simple, if the effect of HST brings them higher amount of profit, even at a lower demand, they won't move from there. Why would they want to return to the original point?

Furthermore, how long exactly would it take for the market to react and adjust the price? In simple economic, the P(Price) is a constant given for most of the businesses. Now with the demand being lower, but the profit being higher, they mostly cancel out each other. How long will the demand become low enough for the profit start to suffer and P starts to move? a year? 5? 10? no one can tell... Until then, all BC residents have to suffer the consequence from it. As a BC resident myself, this is not a desirable effect. Hell, moving to Alberta or try to find a job in the US start to look more and more attractive.

It's true that HST might help to attract future employers to the province, but for me at least, I'm 27 now and it's a stage where I don't have time to wait for this to normalize. It might sound selfish, but isn't BC government or any of you PRO-HST'r the same? We only consider what's best for ourselves, and right now, HST is good for very small portion of people in BC. Hence, I'm against it.

[TheNewGirl]

Tapioca> I have NO idea who I'm going to vote for.

Neither the Liberals or the NDP satisfy my needs for a government that's both fiscaly and ethically responsible. And I have no alternative choices that are genuinely viable.

Maybe Conservative since the BC Conservative Party's making a come back? Though they stand against a lot of things I believe to be important I'm sick of the devils I know in this province.

What I would LIKE is a real liberal party that's actually ideologically liberal not a conservativish party that calls itself liberal.

[Ronin]

If people consume less, that's less money in our city's economy. Apart from eating out, not much of the HST is going to affect me since I don't have kids. The study shows what I thought, that this is mostly going to affect families with children.

The part that gets me is that they're upping taxes and blowing all sorts of money putting stupid bike lanes downtown and supporting hippie assholes.

[TheNewGirl]

The bike lanes are funded by city of Vancouver dollars. Again that's municiple money it comes from property taxes. Unless you live in the city of Vancouver, that's not your dime, don't worry about it .

[Ducdesmo]

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Tapioca> I have NO idea who I'm going to vote for.

Neither the Liberals or the NDP satisfy my needs for a government that's both fiscaly and ethically responsible. And I have no alternative choices that are genuinely viable.

Maybe Conservative since the BC Conservative Party's making a come back? Though they stand against a lot of things I believe to be important I'm sick of the devils I know in this province.

What I would LIKE is a real liberal party that's actually ideologically liberal not a conservativish party that calls itself liberal.

Sorry to tell you this, but it's the same people running the show now matter who you vote for.
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[taylor192]

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Camp is now (with taxes) $224 and day camp now $168. Right there for the 10 weeks of child care I need to cover over the course of the summer that's costing me 24 x 3 = 72, 18 x 7 = 126.... so just in child care/activities alone $198. When you're talking childcare for the summer being between 1500 and 2000 PER child, a $198 increase per kid is a big big deal.

I have absolutely no idea how families with more then one child survive the summers.

Taylor> You said you dared anyone to come up with anything not a luxury that it effects. I gave you a list. One day you'll have kids too. I don't imagine you'll be so blaise about it all.

So your $500 just became $198?

My GF has a daughter so I am very aware of how the HST will affect prices for kids. I agree, it sucks, yet its not the backbreaking numbers, ie $500 ahem $200, that drama queens are fear mongering.

What is the alternative? Business needs to be more competitive internationally, and giving them tax breaks to compete with countries with similar tax breaks will certainly help. The alternative is to subsidize business (never good) or to cut business taxes and raise personal taxes.

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Oh though for our younger members... tuition and text books. University just got that much more expensive.

I have no problem with this. University in Canada is cheap and we're churning out too many grads with worthless degrees.

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Do you know that the premire of BC makes more a year then the president of the United States (400K/year for Campbell, 300K/year for Obama). No private jet or white house but still, all his living/travel expenses are covered for his term. Do you know that many other civil servants make in that ballpark as well? As well as many of the heads of crown corperations (ICBC, BC Hydro, Work Safe, BC Ferries, Translink, The BC Liquor Commision... the list is long). Also our MLAs and MPs are running up 200 - 600K/year personal expenses that come out of our pockets?

The government could start by trimming the top 10% of civil servant's wages by 10%. That would literally save millions a year and be the fiscally responsible first move to balancing their buget. They've been demanding that we, those of us with the least money in the province tighten our belts yet they don't do so themselves. A guy is being paid 400K of YOUR money a year to lie to you about the fiscal reality of this province. That shouldn't be okay with you. It isn't okay with me.

I moved from Ottawa and saw all this first hand. I agree 100% with you on this.

Originally Posted by _Hotsauce_

Bicycles and everything related to Bicycles are included. I rode a bike because it's so much faster and easier then commuting by bus or car , it doesn't pollute, it has much much lower maintenance costs per year, and it keeps me in shape. I am now paying tax on my mode of transportation.

Also, energy products like solar panels. "Because we wouldn't want people to get out of their cars and use solar power or anything" Lets tax it more and make it even less appealing to the public.

The HST is not going to make biking any less appealing.

I also bike so I feel your pain, yet if dedicated bike lanes cannot convince more people to ride, a little more tax isn't going to hurt much.

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Regardless of their claims it's undeniable the government of BC will gain additional revenue from the implimentation of the HST. Both from the 1.9 billion they took from the federal government and the additional goods now subject to the provincial portion of the HST.

The Atlantic provinces did not, they actually lost money. They are not industry heavy like Ontario either.

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Are they spending more on education because of it? No. They're cutting bugets. Recently the provincial government negotiated a wage increase for the teachers union even and neglected to increase funding for the schools who have to pay it to compensate them for it. The province would be better served letting individual districts negotiate with the teachers, or at least not hamstringing the school districts by knowingly increasing thier costs without increasing thier funding accordingly.

Unions suck, and are sucking the budgets dry. This is not a government problem, this is a union problem.

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

The province would be better served reducing the massive duplication of costs between fraser and vancouver coastal health and amalgamating them then forcing them, having reduced combined over head, to actually adhere to their bugets.

Amen!

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Are they spending more on streets? Actually most of the large scale infostructure upgrades have been funded with either 1. Olympic money or 2. federal economic stimuli money. Municipalities, also, manage the maintanince of local road ways, funded via property taxes. This is not impacted by the HST.

I still don't understand why the GVA has not amalgamated yet. There is so much duplication of services in the various cities that could easily be saved.

[_Hotsauce_]

Originally Posted by Ronin

If people consume less, that's less money in our city's economy. Apart from eating out, not much of the HST is going to affect me since I don't have kids. The study shows what I thought, that this is mostly going to affect families with children.

The part that gets me is that they're upping taxes and blowing all sorts of money putting stupid bike lanes downtown and supporting hippie assholes.

I'm neither a happy, nor an asshole, and I ride a bike. Way to generalize.

[Milhouse]

Originally Posted by Ronin

If people consume less, that's less money in our city's economy.

More people will buy groceries and stuff over the border, since after July 1st, no tax for Canadians in Washington.

[tool001]

so the general idea is business will pass on the saving?
how many fucking times u see businesses reduce cost.
gas prices went up 2 years ago.. prices for everything shot up, price of gas went down, did price for services -retail go back down... no..

businesses never reduce cost.

[TheNewGirl]

Taylor the $198 is for childcare alone. That's not even getting into school supplies, activities for the fall & clothing. It is the biggest chunk of it but the $20 here, $30 there will adds up quick for the rest. It's not fear mongering. That's the reality that those of us who buget ahead deal with now. And those of us who don't will just be suprised with later.

Any how I was using myself mostly as an example of how this is going to impact most BC families more then it was my intention to bitch about my personal costs.

There's a LOT of places where as a province we can cut costs and save more then we will make with the additional cash grabs from the HST and that will make the province run more efficently as a whole.