Speeding too fast for conditions

[zulutango]

I issued a VT to a person in a 4X4 who was driving the posted limit in a blizzard with about a foot of unplowed snow on the road and poor visibility...110 in a 110k zone. No crash at all...just dangerously stupid. Said there was no problem or danger because they had the cruise control set. Driver contested the ticket and lost. JP expressed astonishment at the lack of "road sense" and common sense as well. A crash is not required but it does make it easier to prosecute.

[BallPeenHammer2]

Originally Posted by zulutango

"My front tyres meet some ice/uneven dense snow patch, and I understeer and continue to go straight. So Am I driving too fast for conditions? "

144 (1) A person must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway


(c) at a speed that is excessive relative to the road, traffic, visibility or weather conditions

By your own definition, you were...if you had been going slower you would not have lost control in the scenario you just described. If you had hit another vehicle or pedestrian because you were skidding and not turning would you be asking this question? The section definition is "speed relative to conditions"....not excessive speed *( plus 40 or 60 k over the limit) , speed against hwy sign, speed in a municiplaity....relative to the conditions that existed..an uneven dense snow patch, you were going so fast that you admit you lost control.

at about 20k, then slow down to 10K to make the right turn <=====did we miss that parT? how slow should I be going then, hmmm?

It was something that I was not able to see. whatever it was that made my car slip, was only made aware to me when it happened.
I figured it was just ice/uneven patch, hidden underneath softer top layer of snow. I wasn't able to see any of that at all. I managed to stop quickly, since i was going only 10KM/H <----incase you missed it the second time.

[gars]

I'm not trying to bash you or anything, but I know for some of the turns, I need to slow down slower than 10km/h, more like to a walking pace of <5 km/h, because I worried I couldn't make the turn... I'd basically be stopped, and using my front tires turned to slowly propel me into the turn, rather than using my cars momentum to carry me forward and steering with my front tires...

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by BallPeenHammer2

at about 20k, then slow down to 10K to make the right turn <=====did we miss that parT? how slow should I be going then, hmmm?

It was something that I was not able to see. whatever it was that made my car slip, was only made aware to me when it happened.
I figured it was just ice/uneven patch, hidden underneath softer top layer of snow. I wasn't able to see any of that at all. I managed to stop quickly, since i was going only 10KM/H <----incase you missed it the second time.

Sarcasim will not make your point of view correct. As you told us, you lost control, therefore, by definition you were "speeding relative to conditions". An experienced winter driver will anticipate ice/slippery roads in certain areas...intersections are prime locations. The slowing vehicles tyres will compress snow and form ice. The heat from the idling engines also melt snow which freezes into ice. When I approach intersections I expect that I may encounter this and drive accordingly. I slow way earlier than normal, slip the tranny into neutral and use a very light brake application. 10 kmh was obviously too fast in your specific case. I will be barely moving.....maybe 1 or 2 kmh as I creep to the stop line.

Most of the winter traffic crashes I investigated in town were due to drivers doing just what you did and getting surprised by slippery conditions. They then slid thru stop signs, red lights, bounced off curbs, tagged pedestrians on crosswalks...that sort of thing.

Drivers in BC don't get as much winter driving experience as those in the rest of Canada. ROC drivers know to expect slippery areas at intersections and drive accordingly. Those who move here from snow and ice belt areas are astonished at how badly we drive here, as some other "imports" on this BB will likely tell you. Spend a couple of winters in Ontario, Newfoundland or Alberta and you will quickly get the needed on-the-job winter driver training. I'm not calling you a bad driver, just one who exceeded the available traction in this situation that you described to us. Just a question..if you were not at fault, who are you blaming? I know ICBC would hold you responsible for any resulting crash in the circumstances you described.

[sebberry]

I would love to see the police put on a winter driving course in locations where we see little snow. People could really do with the practice. Instead it is all about flexing the law and order muscle and turning people into criminals when they slip up.

[gars]

I haven't seen anybody flexing the law and order muscle. All I see is Ballpeenhammer asking a hypothetical question, and a PO giving an answer. Nobody's received a ticket for understeering through a snowy corner.

All I see with the snow are people who just drive too fast. People just need to slow down when it snows, it's simple as that. If you don't know the limits of your car in the snow, then slow down.

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by sebberry

I would love to see the police put on a winter driving course in locations where we see little snow. People could really do with the practice. Instead it is all about flexing the law and order muscle and turning people into criminals when they slip up.

I'm sure if you were the victim of one of these drivers you would wish the Police and ICBC would flex their muscles & turn people into criminals. BTW, you have to be convicted of a CC charge to be a "criminal" Getting a traffic ticket doesn't make you a "criminal". Like gars said, slow down and the problem goes away.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by zulutango

I'm sure if you were the victim of one of these drivers you would wish the Police and ICBC would flex their muscles & turn people into criminals. BTW, you have to be convicted of a CC charge to be a "crinminal" Getting a traffic ticket doesn't make you a "criminal". Like gars said, slow down and the problem goes away.

No, I wouldn't. If I was hit by a driver who couldn't control their car properly I would be more upset that despite all the muscle flexing and ticket writing, the driver still doesn't know how to drive properly. Does writing him a ticket teach him any more of a lesson than the act of crashing his car did? I don't think so.

With a law enforcement background, I can see how you'd blame the collision on speeding too fast for conditions. But the real problem is not that the car was going too fast, it's the driver who didn't know how fast the car should have been going.

In my mind, any time you have been dealt with by an officer, you might as well be a criminal.

[zulutango]

Then the tickets I got in the past should have excluded me from a few decades of law enforcement. Mea culpa. 1 stop sign and 1 speeding. I learned my lesson...and grew up at the same time. If we are lucky we survive our youth by only making mistakes that hurt us just enough that we don't repeat the stupid behaviour. My experience is that a ticket can be the final motivating factor needed to make a driver adjust their behaviour.

The problem was that the car was going too fast...because the driver chose to drive it that way. Why the choice was made could well be because of a lack of experience..and it could also be because of a choice to disregard the law. My experience has shown that it is sometimes a combination of both. A good driving course will teach you to scan ahead and anticipate problems. That way there are fewer surprises and you are ready when the unexpected actually becomes the "expected". I don't know of any Police driving courses open to the public but the private ones I teach cover exactly this situation.

[sebberry]

Interesting. Police depts will hire people with questionable driving histories to enforce traffic laws, but driver training institutions usually refuse to hire instructors who have one or more offences on their record.

IMO, the mandate of the safety squad should include public training through open house sessions. And I'm not talking about driving a car into a few cardboard boxes on TV and saying "there, that's the education, now we're flexing our enforcement muscle".

[zulutango]

My tickets were in 1966, I was hired in 1988. 22 years clean record was good enough for them.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by sebberry

driver training institutions usually refuse to hire instructors who have one or more offences on their record.

Except those who are just selling people licences... they hire fraudsters from the get-go!

[zulutango]

Standards, qualifications and procedures for driver training instructor's licence applications
27.07 (1) An applicant for a driver training instructor's licence must

(a) have a driving record acceptable to the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia that shows less than 10 demerit points within the past 2 years, and no convictions under the Criminal Code concerning driving of a motor vehicle or convictions in any other jurisdiction for offences analogous to those under the Criminal Code concerning driving of a motor vehicle for 3 years before the application,

(b) provide a police check acceptable to the corporation, and the application may be rejected if the police check indicates a conviction for an offence involving dishonesty, violence or indecency within the past 5 yea

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by zulutango

My tickets were in 1966, I was hired in 1988. 22 years clean record was good enough for them.

Just curious, what are the driving record requirements required to be hired by most police forces?

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by zulutango

Standards, qualifications and procedures for driver training instructor's licence applications
27.07 (1) An applicant for a driver training instructor's licence must

(a) have a driving record acceptable to the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia that shows less than 10 demerit points within the past 2 years, and no convictions under the Criminal Code concerning driving of a motor vehicle or convictions in any other jurisdiction for offences analogous to those under the Criminal Code concerning driving of a motor vehicle for 3 years before the application,

(b) provide a police check acceptable to the corporation, and the application may be rejected if the police check indicates a conviction for an offence involving dishonesty, violence or indecency within the past 5 yea

If you see job postings for driving instructors they usually require people with no history of infractions.

I'm not sure why the MVAR permits instructors to have a questionable driving record.

[gars]

That's like saying school boards should only hire teachers who have only ever gotten 100% on courses they are teaching.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by gars

That's like saying school boards should only hire teachers who have only ever gotten 100% on courses they are teaching.

Would you be happy knowing that your math teacher failed math 12?

[gars]

Honestly, when I was a student going through HS, I could care less how smart the teacher was. What I cared was whether the teacher could teach ME the material. I had plenty of teachers who were smart, including one with a PhD, who I found were horrible teachers. They understood the concepts themselves, but couldn't explain it. And if a math teacher ACTUALLY failed Math 12, and was able to pull themselves together, work their ass off and go to teaching school to teach math, I think they'd probably be a better teacher than most.

The same goes for a driving instructor. I could care less if he's gotten a speeding ticket a few years back. There are laws that prevent dangerous drivers from teaching, and that's all I really care.

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Just curious, what are the driving record requirements required to be hired by most police forces?

You would have to check with each individual Police Force as each has their own set of requirements. I also would have to believe that they would look at the actual convictions as rolling a stop sign at 11pm and a regular speeding charge would likely not be looked on as badly as an excessive, due care, unsafe pass etc.

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Would you be happy knowing that your math teacher failed math 12?

What you said has absolutely nothing to do with what he said.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by gars

Honestly, when I was a student going through HS, I could care less how smart the teacher was. What I cared was whether the teacher could teach ME the material. I had plenty of teachers who were smart, including one with a PhD, who I found were horrible teachers. They understood the concepts themselves, but couldn't explain it. And if a math teacher ACTUALLY failed Math 12, and was able to pull themselves together, work their ass off and go to teaching school to teach math, I think they'd probably be a better teacher than most.

The same goes for a driving instructor. I could care less if he's gotten a speeding ticket a few years back. There are laws that prevent dangerous drivers from teaching, and that's all I really care.

Thank you.