WANTED LED LIGHTING GENUIS!LOCAL

[godwin]

Why do you need firmware for a simple LED light array? Maxim and other makes plenty of LED drivers. (heck if you only need one or 2 for prototyping you can always get them for free, as long as you have equipment to do surface mount).

The thing people forget is you shouldn't directly connect your LED lights with the existing 12V triggers. At least run the trigger signals through and opto isolator and use a decent voltage regulator for the source 12V. Off the top of my head, I would say the component count for a LED board with features like isolators, regulator, variable brightness (ie "brake tap" and "long brake" brightness", proper driver, shouldn't be more than 6 ICs (of course excluding LEDs).

For PCB under $20? go to Futurlec.. type in 200mm x 80mm out come the price $18 bucks for the single side PCB. Of course it is not populated. (silkscreening extra). There are a few other places that sources from China (same idea, upload your PCB and they run it through their CNC machines. for even cheaper. I recommend futurlec, at least they are decent enough that they won't keep copies of your PCB and files (in case it is really valuable). Of course populating the boards is extra. Ever wonder why those LED sign business rake in so much money?

In the end why jerry rigging mods so hard? Because Automotive grade components go through way more rigourous R&D.. that's why Hella costs so much more than say Inpro or eBay.. and that's why Companies like Morgan etc reuses headlight components from Mini or VW?

I think in a SAE article a few years back, basically 10% of consumer electronics passes through automotive grade tests.

In the end, lighting on cars are safety equipment and should be treated as such.

Originally Posted by RabidRat

No.

Where are you even finding a place that will produce a one-off PCB for you for $20? Almost no one would do that for you for any price.

And these guys aren't engineers. How could they even begin to implement the circuit if they don't have a clue how a microcontroller works or what it even is? How would they write the firmware if they've never done any embedded programming? They wouldn't know how or where to source any of the components and they wouldn't know the difference between an operational amplifier and a switching regulator. They're going to blow something up. At the very least, somebody will inevitably try and do something dumb involving linear regulators, bare wire, and butt connectors, melting the housing, starting a fire.

This has to be the worst advice you've ever given on the forum. Ever.

[RabidRat]

Because what you quoted was not just a simple LED light array. Looks to me like there was custom animation etc. You wouldn't be able to achieve those effects without a rudimentary microcontroller.

None of these guys would have surface mount equipment lying around at home. I don't. And I'm pretty sure you don't either. I'll grant you that at least a small subset of the components out there will at least be through-hole, but most people have no experience with even soldering wires together (guess why butt connectors are so popular) let alone soldering components onto a PCB.

And once again you're talking about components like optocouplers and "decent" voltage regulators? How would anyone know how and where to source these components, which variant they need, and what specifications they need if they don't even know what it is?

So I punched in your 200mm x 80mm dimensions for a single sided PCB. I don't see $18, I see $15 for just setup alone (this is suspiciously cheap though.. you sure this a reputable company?).
Btw did you think that they would ship for free?

Good luck on routing the traces between your 6 IC's and whatever supporting resistors, caps, transistors, etc on a single sided PCB. There's no way.

Honestly, all of this is just an impending catastrophe. It is not good advice to tell people they should try and do something like this if they don't know what they're doing. At best, they're going to waste all their money, and at worst, they're going to start fires. Those NSX tail lights are simply out of reach for most DIYers, end of story. You're helping no one by grossly oversimplifying the degree of difficulty for someone not at least in their 2nd year of EE.

Consumer grade electronics doesn't pass SAE tests because it was never designed to function in an automotive setting. Why the hell would a firm add $100 to cost per unit designing a hairdryer to operate while bolted inside your oil pan?! Just like your automotive components won't pass FDA tests because it was never designed to function in a biomedical setting. But none of this has anything to do with how difficult "jerry rigging mods" is. It is simply a lack of the necessary electronics design experience for a lot of people who want to try and do something like this. If they had the knowledge and experience, it should not be difficult to design to SAE spec at all.

Originally Posted by godwin

Why do you need firmware for a simple LED light array? Maxim and other makes plenty of LED drivers. (heck if you only need one or 2 for prototyping you can always get them for free, as long as you have equipment to do surface mount).

The thing people forget is you shouldn't directly connect your LED lights with the existing 12V triggers. At least run the trigger signals through and opto isolator and use a decent voltage regulator for the source 12V. Off the top of my head, I would say the component count for a LED board with features like isolators, regulator, variable brightness (ie "brake tap" and "long brake" brightness", proper driver, shouldn't be more than 6 ICs (of course excluding LEDs).

For PCB under $20? go to Futurlec.. type in 200mm x 80mm out come the price $18 bucks for the single side PCB. Of course it is not populated. (silkscreening extra). There are a few other places that sources from China (same idea, upload your PCB and they run it through their CNC machines. for even cheaper. I recommend futurlec, at least they are decent enough that they won't keep copies of your PCB and files (in case it is really valuable). Of course populating the boards is extra. Ever wonder why those LED sign business rake in so much money?

In the end why jerry rigging mods so hard? Because Automotive grade components go through way more rigourous R&D.. that's why Hella costs so much more than say Inpro or eBay.. and that's why Companies like Morgan etc reuses headlight components from Mini or VW?

I think in a SAE article a few years back, basically 10% of consumer electronics passes through automotive grade tests.

In the end, lighting on cars are safety equipment and should be treated as such.

[godwin]

What are you talking about? You do know that the LED lighting is a common application that there are specific ICs that don't need general micro controllers right? eg Maxim have a huge range. http://www.maxim-ic.com/solutions/hb_led_drivers/ Use MAX16834 if you want to have variable braking lights! NO FIRMWARE involved!
They also make ones for signage, if you want to make graphics from your taillights.

Actually I do SMT PCB all the time, it is not that hard and the tools are basically glorified hair dryers. You don't need to solder because those components are so small and presoldered. You only just need to apply a small bit of heat to melt and the component will stick to the PCB.. google up SMT rework for the tools. I use a Hakko with chinese tips. I do a lot of ARM development and they typically have 60pins, I mount them by hand with the rework tool. For small quantities, you don't need a reflow table! You do know nearly every cell phone store that does unlocking would have a SMT rework machine right? they are typically $300 a pop. Actually because of the low heat.. some people cheap out and use a toaster oven, if they are only mounting the components. Just put the components on the board, turn on the heat and viola the solder melts and the circuit is made.

Futurlec is reputable since a few universities including UBC use them. As I say, I find them more reputable than other Chinese places since a few other projects I got made, I find out my PCB got reused / sold in other products.

Oh I picked 20cm * 8 cm because it is roughly the size of the NSX taillight, given as an example.






That's for 1 board.
$15 + $4 = $19 AUD with shipping!

I don't think you have any experience in electronics, but it is a typical going price. At the back of EE times there are even ones for $7. As I had said some firms farm the work out to China and are bit iffy on the IP.

Opto isolators is a common electronic component has been covered in all 2nd year physics/CS/EE labs I had TAed. RP sells them for $1.25 a piece.
http://www.rpelectronics.com/cny17-2.html

What I am telling you it is not that expensive these days. AND making PCB and getting people to mount it for you is a lot more reliable than soldering each component yourself.

Oh you can do nearly everything with 1 layer boards including especially an LED tailight. More layers' key advantage is to allow you to compact things more. In the LED tailight application, since nearly all components in LED tailights are in series, you have to be an idiot not to be able to route everything on a single sided board. As I had said the component count is not that big, you should be able to do it under 10 components (excluding LED chains and 1 resistor at the end of each chain).

In the end, people who like to work with cars, should be proficient in at least 2nd year university physics courses.

Originally Posted by RabidRat

Because what you quoted was not just a simple LED light array. Looks to me like there was custom animation etc. You wouldn't be able to achieve those effects without a rudimentary microcontroller.

None of these guys would have surface mount equipment lying around at home. I don't. And I'm pretty sure you don't either. I'll grant you that at least a small subset of the components out there will at least be through-hole, but most people have no experience with even soldering wires together (guess why butt connectors are so popular) let alone soldering components onto a PCB.

And once again you're talking about components like optocouplers and "decent" voltage regulators? How would anyone know how and where to source these components, which variant they need, and what specifications they need if they don't even know what it is?

So I punched in your 200mm x 80mm dimensions for a single sided PCB. I don't see $18, I see $15 for just setup alone (this is suspiciously cheap though.. you sure this a reputable company?).
Btw did you think that they would ship for free?

Good luck on routing the traces between your 6 IC's and whatever supporting resistors, caps, transistors, etc on a single sided PCB. There's no way.

Honestly, all of this is just an impending catastrophe. It is not good advice to tell people they should try and do something like this if they don't know what they're doing. At best, they're going to waste all their money, and at worst, they're going to start fires. Those NSX tail lights are simply out of reach for most DIYers, end of story. You're helping no one by grossly oversimplifying the degree of difficulty for someone not at least in their 2nd year of EE.

Consumer grade electronics doesn't pass SAE tests because it was never designed to function in an automotive setting. Why the hell would a firm add $100 to cost per unit designing a hairdryer to operate while bolted inside your oil pan?! Just like your automotive components won't pass FDA tests because it was never designed to function in a biomedical setting. But none of this has anything to do with how difficult "jerry rigging mods" is. It is simply a lack of the necessary electronics design experience for a lot of people who want to try and do something like this. If they had the knowledge and experience, it should not be difficult to design to SAE spec at all.

[Shun Izaki]

lol fight club much?

as far as i'm concerned, LED work is pretty simple for an electard like me... programming is even easier... but meh... you guys are arguing over vansky equipment, throw in some China beijin R sounds while you're at it

[RabidRat]

You're kidding right? The MAX16834 is capable only of dimming. How do you propose to achieve animation of the tail lights like how it's flashing through the sequences in that GIF you quoted, using this?

Good for you that you do SMT all the time with toaster ovens. That's really professional.



You've ordered a quantity of 0 boards. Maybe that's why it costs you nothing.

Thank you for reiterating my point - you've been teaching WHO about optocouplers? 2nd year EE students. This was exactly what I just told you in my last post - you'd need to be at least a 2nd year EE student to have a chance at getting those animated tail lights done. But most people aren't. Most people have never picked up a soldering iron before, and you're telling them to source components and layout PCB's!

You say you'd have to be an idiot not to be able to route 6 IC's on a 1 layer board? Tell me how it is physically possible to route the power to a Vdd pin half way down the side of an IC when you have data pins routed all along the side of that package from the adjacent IC's. Show me and I Paypal you your $19 AUD.

Originally Posted by godwin

What are you talking about? You do know that the LED lighting is a common application that there are specific ICs that don't need general micro controllers right? eg Maxim have a huge range. http://www.maxim-ic.com/solutions/hb_led_drivers/ Use MAX16834 if you want to have variable braking lights! NO FIRMWARE involved!
They also make ones for signage, if you want to make graphics from your taillights.

Actually I do SMT PCB all the time, it is not that hard and the tools are basically glorified hair dryers. You don't need to solder because those components are so small and presoldered. You only just need to apply a small bit of heat to melt and the component will stick to the PCB.. google up SMT rework for the tools. I use a Hakko with chinese tips. I do a lot of ARM development and they typically have 60pins, I mount them by hand with the rework tool. For small quantities, you don't need a reflow table! You do know nearly every cell phone store that does unlocking would have a SMT rework machine right? they are typically $300 a pop. Actually because of the low heat.. some people cheap out and use a toaster oven, if they are only mounting the components. Just put the components on the board, turn on the heat and viola the solder melts and the circuit is made.

Futurlec is reputable since a few universities including UBC use them. As I say, I find them more reputable than other Chinese places since a few other projects I got made, I find out my PCB got reused / sold in other products.

Oh I picked 20cm * 8 cm because it is roughly the size of the NSX taillight, given as an example.






That's for 1 board.
$15 + $4 = $19 AUD with shipping!

I don't think you have any experience in electronics, but it is a typical going price. At the back of EE times there are even ones for $7. As I had said some firms farm the work out to China and are bit iffy on the IP.

Opto isolators is a common electronic component has been covered in all 2nd year physics/CS/EE labs I had TAed. RP sells them for $1.25 a piece.
http://www.rpelectronics.com/cny17-2.html

What I am telling you it is not that expensive these days. AND making PCB and getting people to mount it for you is a lot more reliable than soldering each component yourself.

Oh you can do nearly everything with 1 layer boards including especially an LED tailight. More layers' key advantage is to allow you to compact things more. In the LED tailight application, since nearly all components in LED tailights are in series, you have to be an idiot not to be able to route everything on a single sided board. As I had said the component count is not that big, you should be able to do it under 10 components (excluding LED chains and 1 resistor at the end of each chain).

[RabidRat]

Originally Posted by godwin

In the end, people who like to work with cars, should be proficient in at least 2nd year university physics courses.

Are you kidding me? So any enthusiast isn't at least a 2nd year engineer or physicist should get off the forum then? Could you be more arrogant?

Dude it's not that terribly difficult a concept I'm trying to convey to you. A lot of things, most DIYers and hobbyists could handle. But something like this, where you're talking about some serious electrical design, you can't just downplay it as "oh whatever anybody can do it".. "and hey, nevermind that you've never picked up a soldering iron before, just throw in a couple of drivers and isolators and surface mount it all together with your mom's toaster oven!!". Like I said - best case scenario, somebody wastes a lot of money. Worst case scenario, they burn their car down.

[underscore]

This is all pretty simple guys...

IF you know how to do it at last half decently and can DIY as a hobby, then it's sweet.

BUT if you don't have a clue when it comes to electronics and can't figure out the polarity of an LED, then something like this will cost you a stupid amount for something relatively minor (as far as the end result).

Just to make LED taillights, with some basic knowledge, is not hard. With enough reading online, and practice, quite a few people could sort it out (albeit they won't know exactly how it works, but they can make the necessary connections on a PCB layout etc), but you're looking at a very large amount of time invested for one project.

Now I'm tempted to do this, just because I'm fairly certain I can. But I think visible LED's look gay as hell so...

[GabAlmighty]

Originally Posted by godwin

In the end, people who like to work with cars, should be proficient in at least 2nd year university physics courses.

Remind me to fake some "turbulence" when i'm flying you around... You'll have a new appreciation for flying.

[godwin]

Actually I didn't refer or posted that GIF. When I suggest MAX16834's application is for variable brake lighting (ie differentiate brake tap, and full on braking). Just to throw it out there the way to implement it is you will use a clock to time the brake time, you then increase the time proportions when the time is longer than a predetermined intervals, from say the initial LED's brightness from an initial 60% to to a full 100%. Actually the chip doesn't actually dims the LED per say, but it turns it on and off rapidly (via PWM) to achieve different light levels.

I said you can use a toaster oven to illustrate you don't need full clean room + robotic tools to do SMT PCB. In your post, you made it sound like you need a full blown clean room to fabricate SMT PCBs and it is out of most people's league. SMT parts are also easy because there is adhesive that one can stick to the PCB. I use a quartz oven to solder my SMT components, but that's another story. Yes SMT PCBs are geared towards mass manufacturing, however you can still do things one at a time, without automation. My point is to refute your contention that SMT is complex, unaffordable and only reserved for the chosen few.

If you want to do a tailight like WetorDry's GIF animation, you can need to go pick signage packages that Maxim offers, from the Maxim link I pointed out? You still don't need a dedicated micro-controller as the IC has everything built in.

Oh you do realize as long as the board area is available, you even if data pins are all on one side, you can still route 6 ICs, especially the 6 ICs will be interconnected anyways. As I say multilayer is primarily as a space saving feature. That's one of the reason why most PCB layout too have schematic and layout view aspects.

Originally Posted by RabidRat

You're kidding right? The MAX16834 is capable only of dimming. How do you propose to achieve animation of the tail lights like how it's flashing through the sequences in that GIF you quoted, using this?

Good for you that you do SMT all the time with toaster ovens. That's really professional.



You've ordered a quantity of 0 boards. Maybe that's why it costs you nothing.

Thank you for reiterating my point - you've been teaching WHO about optocouplers? 2nd year EE students. This was exactly what I just told you in my last post - you'd need to be at least a 2nd year EE student to have a chance at getting those animated tail lights done. But most people aren't. Most people have never picked up a soldering iron before, and you're telling them to source components and layout PCB's!

You say you'd have to be an idiot not to be able to route 6 IC's on a 1 layer board? Tell me how it is physically possible to route the power to a Vdd pin half way down the side of an IC when you have data pins routed all along the side of that package from the adjacent IC's. Show me and I Paypal you your $19 AUD.

[godwin]

If you look at all the queries on this forum, nearly 90% of the car related issues from simple things how winter tires work, to shocks to turboing, ecu mapping etc. All the issues can be explained by physics. The fact is the school curriculum doesn't cover all the aspects that a working of the modern automobiles (especially ones with electronics), until second year university. I throw in second year, because that's where integration is taught and that's what fuel mapping is all about.

I didn't know it is arrogant to state that you need knowledge to understand something as complex as a car. I mean of all things, cars are probably the most complex thing out there. To fully understand how it performs, you need physics (load transfer, friction), chemistry (compounds, fuel), biology (reaction time), throw in modern things like electronics and programming. The kicker is all area is best described in math.

I know the current Canadian society is geared towards "be all you can be" and everyone is equal. However one still has to acquire the knowledge. For most people, the easiest, structured and most comprehensive way to gain all the knowledge is to go to school. Like it or not, the current education system is a spiral model and the knowledge to understand a lot of the complex aspects of the car are imparted at second year university (at least on paper). The spiral of knowledge model is when you roughly go over the same areas (eg math) over the years in increasing complexity. Eg Grade 10 you learn about variables, Grade 11 you learn about equations, Grade 12 you deal with quadratic equations, First year you deal with differentiation, 2nd year Integration.

Of course, you can learn by yourself on your own pace outside school environment, without going to classes etc. In the end, people who learn as comprehensively or as efficiently are a rarity.
I think it is more arrogant to expect the rest of the world to have the knowledge imprinted like you, without needing to go to school for it.

Originally Posted by RabidRat

Are you kidding me? So any enthusiast isn't at least a 2nd year engineer or physicist should get off the forum then? Could you be more arrogant?

Dude it's not that terribly difficult a concept I'm trying to convey to you. A lot of things, most DIYers and hobbyists could handle. But something like this, where you're talking about some serious electrical design, you can't just downplay it as "oh whatever anybody can do it".. "and hey, nevermind that you've never picked up a soldering iron before, you could do surface mount with your mom's toaster oven!!". This is ridiculous, quit being an idiot.

[RabidRat]

I'll give you a corner case right now to prove it to you - say you have two DIP packages and they're both 8 pin. Pin6 and Pin7 of IC1 is routed to Pin2 and Pin4 of IC2. What do you do when Pin 3 of IC2 is Vdd?

Anyway I don't want to keep arguing with you. I think you already know the point I'm trying to make. And if I understand you correctly, your point is "this is all incredibly easy, anybody can do this.. if you're a 2nd year engineer or physicist. and if you're not a 2nd year engineer or physicist, then I wasn't even talking about you, because you just shouldn't be here".

Originally Posted by godwin

Oh you do realize as long as the board area is available, you even if data pins are all on one side, you can still route 6 ICs, especially the 6 ICs will be interconnected anyways. As I say multilayer is primarily as a space saving feature. That's one of the reason why most PCB layout too have schematic and layout view aspects.

[underscore]

^ 1) run it under the IC (depends on sizing of course)

2) jumper wire, if a multilayer board isn't an option.

[RabidRat]

Originally Posted by underscore

^ 1) run it under the IC (depends on sizing of course)

2) jumper wire, if a multilayer board isn't an option.

Exactly. You either run through the ground plane (but he's talking about a 1 layer board here), or you run a jumper. I've been trying to get him to say that .

Edit: misunderstood your first point, but ya that's situational like you said.

[godwin]

I think you are mistaken to think that people who design and package chips don't think about the layout / application of the eventual user. I would say your example is rather rare. It seems that you like to pick up on the most obtuse of examples.

Actually if you have read and think what I had written, I was doing the opposite from what you implied. In your posts, you first painted the picture that creating PCBs and SMT PCBs are out of reach, too complex and expensive for most people. I refuted that one can utilize PCB prototype manufacturers cheaply; one even without specialized tools can do mount SMT components on a PCB with a toaster oven. (However you seem to come up with the idea that I use one other than to make toast.) Heck for PCB manufacturing, Futurlec is one of the more "barebones" operations. There are ones that give away layout tools for free for those without PCB layout experience (and live engineers to talk to!)! eg http://www.4pcb.com/ For those who want to try, you can get their software here: http://www.4pcb.com/free-pcb-layout-software/ along with tutorial etc.

I like to point out that even if one haven't touch a soldering iron before like you say, one can still always get the components mounted at nearly all SMT PCB manufacturers. In fact the costs are often reasonable and turn around just as quick, since the manufacturer already has your PCB and schematic on file, and they just have to load the tapes of components.

If I want the post to be exclusive to 2nd year EE or equivalent, I won't have pointed out the places where one can get PCB board made cheaply at places like Furturlec, would I? I would have taken up the same Wizard in Wizard of Oz like attitude similar to yours, and say it is too hard or abstract for people and hand wiring is the way to go!

Originally Posted by RabidRat

I'll give you a corner case right now to prove it to you - say you have two DIP packages and they're both 8 pin. Pin6 and Pin7 of IC1 is routed to Pin2 and Pin4 of IC2. What do you do when Pin 3 of IC2 is Vdd?

Anyway I don't want to keep arguing with you. I think you already know the point I'm trying to make. And if I understand you correctly, your point is "this is all incredibly easy, anybody can do this.. if you're a 2nd year engineer or physicist. and if you're not a 2nd year engineer or physicist, then I wasn't even talking about you, because you just shouldn't be here".

[godwin]

Please do tell us the airline you work for, so we can say hello the next time we fly?

Originally Posted by GabAlmighty

Remind me to fake some "turbulence" when i'm flying you around... You'll have a new appreciation for flying.

[RabidRat]

Not gonna bother talking about it, so just do me a favor and try routing one of your designs with a 60 pin ARM processor on one layer and tell me how that goes. Assuming of course, you actually have sensors and actuators hooked up to this thing.

Originally Posted by godwin

I think you are mistaken to think that people who design and package chips don't think the layout / application of the eventual. I would say your example is rather rare. It seems that you like to pick up on the most obtuse of examples.

I honestly think you are misleading people. There is a reason no one is ever surprised whenever cheap ebay china electronics bursts into flames. You have to know what you're doing when things get complicated, and I say those NSX tail lights are probably along the lines of "complicated" for most people. Ask your next door neighbor what transients are and how he should design around it. Get up and ask. But I forgot; according to you, individuals without an engineering/physics background are not "people".

Originally Posted by godwin

...

[godwin]

Err I didn't say I use 1 layer board for my projects. I said for LED taillight application you can get away with 1 layer layout, because of the sheer area of circuit board real estate and the lack of pins.

Also you said "individuals without an engineering/physics background are not people". I didn't say the above statement.

Not me. Here is what I said:
"In the end, people who like to work with cars, should be proficient in at least 2nd year university physics courses."

Originally Posted by RabidRat

Not gonna bother talking about it, so just do me a favor and try routing one of your designs with a 60 pin ARM processor on one layer and tell me how that goes. Assuming of course, you actually have sensors and actuators hooked up to this thing.



I honestly think you are misleading people. There is a reason no one is ever surprised whenever cheap ebay china electronics bursts into flames. You have to know what you're doing when things get complicated, and I say those NSX tail lights are probably along the lines of "complicated" for most people. Ask your next door neighbor what transients are and how he should design around it. Get up and ask. But I forgot; according to you, individuals without an engineering/physics background are not "people".

[RabidRat]

Well I said you should try, because you might realize that eventually you'll get stuck at some point.

Okay and I'm still saying that comes off as arrogant. Not everyone around here has bothered with those kinds of courses. There are plenty of other people in all kinds of careers on RS and we're all enthusiasts and we all like working on our cars, whether you give us "permission" or not. True enough, if they DID have that kind of background, this is all very doable. But not everyone does, and you can't just write them off as "oh well I didn't mean them, they shouldn't be here anyway."

PS. Do you ever go to sleep?

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

this is madness

[dhari]

Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN

this is madness

agreed! i kept reading even though i had no clue what they were saying, hoping that some insults were thrown around here and there

[Bath Tussue]

i have to say electronic DIY is not for everyone.
i just recently seen an example of an inexperenced person creating a circuit.
they were fully capable of using a soldering iron, although poorly, but i was completely surprised that their circuit didn;t catch on fire. (it was a direct short)

[MindBomber]

Fight club electrical engineering style.

I took first year physics but I guess I should have continued onto second year, because I'm completely lost.

[underscore]

What you learn in Physics and what you learn in electronics are completely different.

To be slightly helpful to the OP: Are there any actual cars out there that have the "shape" of lighting that you want (ie circles?) If so, maybe look into acquiring a set and combining them with your current tails.

[Shun Izaki]

Originally Posted by Bath Tussue

i have to say electronic DIY is not for everyone.
i just recently seen an example of an inexperenced person creating a circuit.
they were fully capable of using a soldering iron, although poorly, but i was completely surprised that their circuit didn;t catch on fire. (it was a direct short)

that's why i have you, to do it for me

[GabAlmighty]

Originally Posted by godwin

Please do tell us the airline you work for, so we can say hello the next time we fly?

NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!