Stephen Hawking: "There is no Heaven"

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

Because orginized religion makes so much hardship for so many people.

If anyone has taken any biological Anthropolgy, Natural Selection and culture plays a role in Religion.

Hundreds of years ago, many people wanted to fit in, and being an outkast did not help you Financially or socially. If everyone around you and the people you associated with wore a Turbin, Cross etc, you would want to be inclined to be like these people in order to fit in. Not fitting in would mean you don't find a mate, or starve to deaf because people wouldn't have business dealings with you.

Religion was an easy way of keeping order and allowed the young to be taught basic morals. So back then, religion actually helped people keep order and didnt create soo many hardship like it does today.

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

I have NO beef with people who are spiritual or who have faith. I'm all down with self awareness and introspection and morality and personal growth (though these are not only achieved through faith for sure).

I have a HUGE issue though with hate spewing sheeple who use God as an excuse to be close minded bigots.

+ 1.

I was one of these people, mostly because I didn't know any better. My parents raised me to believe what they believed in. I just followed the people like my friends around me like a sheep in a herd.

It wasn't until I educated myself in University and learned more about the world and the ability to make unbiased, informed opinions that allowed me to better shape my morals and views.

[Mancini]

I used to believe that religion was the answer and then I met God.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by cliffhanger33

Noo, that's the point everyone knows right angle is 90 degrees, but do you know why that's true? Coz it just is. Theres no known proof for it so we all rely on faith, regardless of how much people say that faith is not legitimate way of knowing. Hell, im supporting faith here and im Christian too

A right angle is 90 degrees. We can MEASURE it. Show me how we can measure god, measure heaven, measure hell and everything else that requires "faith" and I'll listen to your argument.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by azndude69

and being an outkast did not help you Financially or socially.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by azndude69

. So back then, religion actually helped people keep order and didnt create soo many hardship like it does today.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong btw.

[$_$]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

religion is just a misinterpretation by uneducated human beings of what the universe really is.

I thought my post in the other thread might be interesting to some since you guys are talking about this.

You guys need to have a more open mind about UFOlogy and how it relates to every major religion in the world, and how this relates with current events and certain speculation. Nothing is definitive right now, but information are coming out about governments recorded speculation themselves.There's a certain stigma around UFOlogy or the belief that extraterrestrials having direct contact with our ancestors in modern society you are crazy. You have to understand that the information that you find will not challenge your beliefs. It will only provide you insight on how history has been perceived through the hundreds of years that it has been passed down, as well as how our ancestors view technology. You ever play a game in elementary where your teacher will tell you one thing, and you are trying to tell your classmate the same thing, and when it finally gets to the last person at the other side of the room the message is completely different? Think about it like that. But one thing is for sure though. Every religion includes a being coming down from the sky and descends upon them. This being don't come from the sea, or come from the ground, it's always coming down. This being becomes a deity through its magnificent powers. These accounts are always recorded as truth during its era, and literal and non-fictional.

For those Christians, think about this. When God comes down, in his "physical presence", is he not always appearing in a cloud of smoke, and disappearing in a cloud of smoke? He's often portrayed as a bright light, then leaving as cloud of smoke.

Ezekiel: In the Book of Ezekiel, part of the Hebrew bible, a prophet has a vision of a flying vessel accompanied by fire, smoke and a loud noise. Some ancient alien theorists have argued that the vehicle's design closely mirrors that of a modern spaceship.





The egyptians carved these out of gold:




SALAMANCA, SPAIN


This is an illustration from a book "Ume No Chiri (Dust of Apricot)" published in 1803. A foreign ship and crew witnessed at Haratonohama (Haratono Seashore) in Hitachi no Kuni (Ibaragi Prefecture), Japan this strange object. According to the explanation in the drawing, the outershell was made of iron and glass, and strange letters shown in this drawing were seen inside the ship.





K'inich Janaab' Pakal (23 March 603 – 28 August 683)[1] was ruler of the Maya polity of Palenque in the Late Classic period of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican chronology. During a long reign of some 68 years Pakal was responsible for the construction or extension of some of Palenque's most notable surviving inscriptions and monumental architecture.




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_tomb_lid.svg (Click into it and tell me what you see?)

The Baptism of Christ
Aert De Gelder, 1710






The Madonna with saint Giovannio
Domenico Ghilandaio




Miracle of the Snow: Foundation of Santa Maria Maggiore
Masolino da Panicale, 1430




Sky People: This ancient stone figure, found at the Mayan ruins in Tikal, Guatemala, resembles a modern-day astronaut in a space helmet.

If you haven't already, check out History Channels Ancient Aliens and it might answer some of your religious questions, as it did mine.

http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens

[SkinnyPupp]

Way to ruin a thread

[cliffhanger33]

When I regard to faith as a basis for knowledge, I'm not saying religion. To be clear, faith is the complete trust or conclusive belief in someone or something rather than proof while the word ‘reason’ would require justification or explanation of a belief or action as evidence.
Faith is indescribable and hard to visualize and understand. In fact, it is not easy for someone to have faith because there’s actually no proof or reason in a god’s existence. Some would agree that faith applies to our ways of knowing while some would disagree. Albert Einstein (1879-1955) was once asked in 1915 what he would do if the experiment he did on his general theory of relativity did not agree with his theory. He calmly replied, “So much the worse for the experiment. The theory is right!” Although it was an unjustifiable theory at that time, he had faith and instinctively believed that his theory was correct, paving the path to the most innovative scientific discovery of the 20th century.
Science is all about acquiring knowledge based on repeated experiments and observations for a consistent pattern to find the answers, and faith does not fall under any of this. On the contrary, what makes us think that the consistent pattern that we are working so hard to find is not based on faith that the universe even has governing principles in the first place? In mathematics, if a series of steps used to solve a problem works, we assume that this procedure would be able to solve similar problems. However, it’s a matter of time before a new theorem will be discovered and that the old theorem will become obsolete, going through a paradigm shift. Now, how can reasoning be a legitimate basis for knowledge when it is so inconsistent? Faith, such as in religion and mathematics, gives the tendency to remain firm on principles even when we face contrary evidence, and that is its strength.

I totally understand all the opinions about religion out there and I am not arguing anything further than this in any religious aspects. Just so much of HOW we gain knowledge and the fact that we all subconsciously apply faith in this.

[BNR32_Coupe]

They had at least 1 collision so far at the LHC.

The higgs boson could not be found. However, that does not eliminate the possibility of its existence. They'll just have to perform the test continually. Until the boson is found, m theory is just that.. a theory.

[rsx]

Any belief system that promotes ignorance, hate in all forms, can't possibly be the basis for someone's "faith"

[frozen]

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe

They had at least 1 collision so far at the LHC.

The higgs boson could not be found. However, that does not eliminate the possibility of its existence. They'll just have to perform the test continually. Until the boson is found, m theory is just that.. a theory.

It should be noted that it still isn't being used at its full power. They're gonna get there in time.

[Culture_Vulture]

Half a century after the demarcation project and people are still arguing over the fine line that stretches between religion and science. Point in case, the numerous responses in this thread.

Hawking did a good job presenting himself in such a way that he doesn't deny the existence of faith and its various ramifications (God, afterlife, what will yous).
People should learn to keep science and religion the fuck away from each other.

[Valour]

Jane Foster: Describe exactly what happened to you last night.
Thor: Your ancestors called it magic...
[Thor skims through a book on Norse mythology]
Thor: ...but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same.

[Chronix]

^that quote doesnt explain anything imo. seemed more like a deus ex machina

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Chronix

^that quote doesnt explain anything imo. seemed more like a deus ex machina

Doesn't it? Any technology advanced enough will appear as though it were magic to those who are unaware of its technology.


When technology becomes sufficiently advanced and dispersed, it become an everyday thing; in time our machines will make more machines, and it will do it all at the wave of a hand and at the call of our voice.


There's a scifi novel I read, where each room in a hotel is assigned a "call name". Room 402 would be "Chiron" for example. Anyone in the hotel who wants service for their room or billed to them needs to just say their call name and order what they want. You're telling me that asking an invisible voice for something to happen or be called for wouldn't be seen as magic? It's all relative. It's magic 'til we understand it.

[Pally777]

Originally Posted by Skyline350gt

Coming from someone that has life long experience, one thing people have to realize is just because you go to church doesn't mean you are a Christian. You actually have to harness a relationship.

As a Christian, I couldn't agree more with the above statement.

Originally Posted by Skyline350gt

But anyway as time went by everything was okay I felt like something was a little off.
It was hard enough living a life trying not to sin.

I don't know if I understood you correctly, but are you saying being Christian is about not sinning? If that is what you're saying, then I'm sorry to say that you misunderstood what being Christian is about.

Originally Posted by Skyline350gt

Fast forward 4-5 years or so, I now believe it's IMPORTANT to live the life you want to live. And not be stuck in a huge bubble, life is short and every moment is beautiful.
Reason being not to long ago my mother passed away and..damn do I regret not talking and sharing more moments with her..

Sorry to hear about your lost. My condolences. It's good you realized the importance of those relationships we take for granted everyday.

[bloodmack]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

Doesn't it? Any technology advanced enough will appear as though it were magic to those who are unaware of its technology.


When technology becomes sufficiently advanced and dispersed, it become an everyday thing; in time our machines will make more machines, and it will do it all at the wave of a hand and at the call of our voice.


There's a scifi novel I read, where each room in a hotel is assigned a "call name". Room 402 would be "Chiron" for example. Anyone in the hotel who wants service for their room or billed to them needs to just say their call name and order what they want. You're telling me that asking an invisible voice for something to happen or be called for wouldn't be seen as magic? It's all relative. It's magic 'til we understand it.

I am so fucking high, and this makes SO much sense right now. Star Trek had the voice thing, and their little food making things.

[Pally777]

Originally Posted by Culture_Vulture

People should learn to keep science and religion the fuck away from each other.

Haha... well put.

Science is the HOW. Faith is the WHY. There is no contradiction between science and faith, because they are different perspectives.

[Token]

Originally Posted by cliffhanger33

Just like in math. Axioms for example are statements that are known to be true but can never be proved eg. right angles are always 90 degrees or parallel lines will run infinitely without ever touching. How do we know this?

I never post, but I just had to respond to this. There is an entire section of math devoted to proofs of concepts such as this, it's called LINEAR ALGEBRA.

Another flaw in your post is that these concepts are in no way related. The concepts of right angles and parallel lines HAVE to exist, the fact they have special names attached to them is irrelevant.
With religion/God, the universe could exist without either, does it? Who knows... But please do not make a mockery of mathematics in a poor attempt to prove your point.

TL;DR Please Learn2Math

[moomooCow]

I'm an agnostic atheist. It is ignorant to be blindy on either side (religious vs atheist.) There are as many religious bigots as there are atheists, but the problem I have with religion is the indoctrination. Many children are raised to blindly believe and many never question their religion. This type of blind faith and indoctrination can easily be manipulated to breed extremists. The scary thing is that those terrorists know full well what they're doing but believe that they are just in doing so.

Originally Posted by freakshow

HERE BY CHANCE
PROMOTES ALTRUISM

Altruism: 1. The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. I don't see the problem with believing that we're here by chance and also promoting altruism. Are you implying that people are only altruistic because they believe that's what their god would want them to do.

Originally Posted by freakshow

CAN'T HAVE FREE WILL + DETERMINISM
NO PROBLEM WITH WAVE-PARTICLE DUALITY

Could you explain this a little more in depth? Maybe I don't sufficiently understand the implications of wave-particle duality.

Originally Posted by freakshow

NO OBJECTIVE BASIS FOR MORALS
PUSHES THEM ON OTHERS ANYWAYS

Why does there need to be a basis for morals? woob provided a beautiful quote.

Originally Posted by woob

Fuck yes.
"Developing love and compassion and reducing anger and spite is a universal activity which requires no faith in any religion whatsoever."
- Dalai Lama

Originally Posted by freakshow

LOVES NATURAL SELECTION
OPPOSED TO KILLING

Just because someone is pro evolution and natural selection, they should be pro killing too? Purposely killing would be entirely contradictory to how natural selection functions.

Originally Posted by freakshow

NO BASIS FOR EXISTENCE
BELIEVES IN HUMAN RIGHTS

Again, the quote from woob addresses this quite eloquently. Why does there need to be a basis for morals? woob provided a beautiful quote.

Originally Posted by woob

Fuck yes.
"Developing love and compassion and reducing anger and spite is a universal activity which requires no faith in any religion whatsoever."

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by cliffhanger33

When I regard to faith as a basis for knowledge, I'm not saying religion. To be clear, faith is the complete trust or conclusive belief in someone or something rather than proof while the word ‘reason’ would require justification or explanation of a belief or action as evidence.
Faith is indescribable and hard to visualize and understand. In fact, it is not easy for someone to have faith because there’s actually no proof or reason in a god’s existence. Some would agree that faith applies to our ways of knowing while some would disagree. Albert Einstein (1879-1955) was once asked in 1915 what he would do if the experiment he did on his general theory of relativity did not agree with his theory. He calmly replied, “So much the worse for the experiment. The theory is right!” Although it was an unjustifiable theory at that time, he had faith and instinctively believed that his theory was correct, paving the path to the most innovative scientific discovery of the 20th century.
Science is all about acquiring knowledge based on repeated experiments and observations for a consistent pattern to find the answers, and faith does not fall under any of this. On the contrary, what makes us think that the consistent pattern that we are working so hard to find is not based on faith that the universe even has governing principles in the first place? In mathematics, if a series of steps used to solve a problem works, we assume that this procedure would be able to solve similar problems. However, it’s a matter of time before a new theorem will be discovered and that the old theorem will become obsolete, going through a paradigm shift. Now, how can reasoning be a legitimate basis for knowledge when it is so inconsistent? Faith, such as in religion and mathematics, gives the tendency to remain firm on principles even when we face contrary evidence, and that is its strength.

I totally understand all the opinions about religion out there and I am not arguing anything further than this in any religious aspects. Just so much of HOW we gain knowledge and the fact that we all subconsciously apply faith in this.

Yeah, I would agree that faith is present in science and in all our lives, but the faith in this context is merely holding on to what theory fits best to explain a situation and has no religious connotation at all.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by moomooCow

It is ignorant to be blindy on either side (religious vs atheist.)

I disagree. If you were arguing about something like, the big bang theory vs some other scientific theory on how the universe was created, you might have a point.

But arguing religion vs science is not even 'apples vs apples'. One is science which CAN eventually be proven with study, the other is a story book that people only believe in because that's what they've been told to believe in since they were born.

It is not ignorant to say that you don't believe in fairy tales. It is ignorant to even consider it a possibility that just because we are human, there is some great reason for us to exist in this universe. There's not. We're just here because we are.

[moomooCow]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

I disagree. If you were arguing about something like, the big bang theory vs some other scientific theory on how the universe was created, you might have a point.

But arguing religion vs science is not even 'apples vs apples'. One is science which CAN eventually be proven with study, the other is a story book that people only believe in because that's what they've been told to believe in since they were born.

It is not ignorant to say that you don't believe in fairy tales. It is ignorant to even consider it a possibility that just because we are human, there is some great reason for us to exist in this universe. There's not. We're just here because we are.

Sorry I probably should have clarified, I think being religious is a good thing, like neggo mentioned earlier in this thread.

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by neggo

Anybody can have beliefs of a higher power without having to belong to a religion or strongly associate with one. Religion and faith can essentially be viewed as different entities.

Religion is created, institutionalized and bureaucratized by people. Faith, however, is unconstricted and unconstrained by any of those elements.

As long as people, theists and atheists alike, tell you to rigidly believe in a particular set of rules or doctrines without any room for personal interpretations and beliefs, the tensions between religions and atheists will always exist.

Simply put? Believe in what you want to believe. Just don't be a fucking jackass about it.

It is the mostly institutions of religions that cause problems. Faith in a higher being, heaven and hell, or karma gives some people the strength they need to carry on with their lives. I genuinely think it's great that some people can find strength in faith, but personally, I can't bring myself to take that leap of faith as much as I want to.

And you might notice that being an atheist is the popular thing to be now. You have tons of little kids that just bash on theists without a god damn clue what they're talking about. All they ever do is revert to stating that their faith has no logic, no shit. Anyone who tries to logically debate a theist with the expectation of "winning" and converting the theist is silly.

[flagella]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

I disagree. If you were arguing about something like, the big bang theory vs some other scientific theory on how the universe was created, you might have a point.

But arguing religion vs science is not even 'apples vs apples'. One is science which CAN eventually be proven with study, the other is a story book that people only believe in because that's what they've been told to believe in since they were born.

It is not ignorant to say that you don't believe in fairy tales. It is ignorant to even consider it a possibility that just because we are human, there is some great reason for us to exist in this universe. There's not. We're just here because we are.

Seriously, is this guy serious? I have never seen more a biased view than this. Where the hell did you get all your ideas from? Just like a brainless religious fanatic who spews out statements without any basis, you seem to have some extreme views planted in your head since you were small too.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by flagella

Seriously, is this guy serious? I have never seen more a biased view than this. Where the hell did you get all your ideas from? Just like a brainless religious fanatic who spews out statements without any basis, you seem to have some extreme views planted in your head since you were small too.

The best you can do is act like a mindless troll? We have enough of those, thanks.