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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 06-23-2011, 10:44 AM   #1
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ISBC using DL information/facial recognition to identify rioters

Here's a legal question for the RS's local constabulary.

ICBC will be dusting off and firing up their facial recognition computer to help identify Vancouver rioters.

We know from previous discussions that only a peace officer/autoplan insurance agent can request an individual's driver's licence for the sole purpose of verifying that the individual is entitled and licence to operate a motor vehicle. For example, if I ran a video rental store I can't insist on specifically seeing your DL, but I can request "photo ID".

So with that in mind, it is reasonable to assume that the information contained within a DL is to be used only for the purpose of licencing that individual whom the DL belongs to to operate a motor vehicle (and the things that go along with it, insurance, penalties, etc..)

So would ICBC be using that information in an inappropriate way when attempting to identify a rioter smashing up a store window?

Should ICBC's use of that information be limited to identifying people involved in damaging property insured by ICBC?

I can't stand the idea of walking the streets amongst the same people who smashed up the city and I'm all for locking the perps away, but my concern is if that information was used to identify a rioter who was later let off because ICBC's data on that person was used in a way not originally intended.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:51 AM   #2
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What about ICBC sending information about you to Parking Enforcement Agencies like your full name and address just because they have the model/colour and license plate of your vehicle?

I think people should be more up in arms about that than anything else.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:58 AM   #3
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Good point, but the use of that information is tied into the operation of the car so I don't personally see a huge problem with that.


*Would a mod please correct the title of the thread? It's the Insurance Corp of BC, not the Insurance Scammers of BC. Well.. sort of.
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post
Good point, but the use of that information is tied into the operation of the car so I don't personally see a huge problem with that.


*Would a mod please correct the title of the thread? It's the Insurance Corp of BC, not the Insurance Scammers of BC. Well.. sort of.
Wait, what? How is that information tied with the operation of the car?

ICBC is releasing your PRIVATE information that would not otherwise be available to someone who only has your make/colour and the license plate.

This means that parking agencies can just WALK DOWN THE STREET and write down any car they see parked or otherwise and get the registered owners full name and address.

How is that not a problem?
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:39 AM   #5
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If you're parking illegally, how is that different from a moving violation in that the officer in both cases would look up your registration information in order to issue you a ticket?

Unless the parking agency is using the information in a different way.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:51 PM   #6
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I'm pretty sure they would be seeking a warrant first, then it doesn't need to be specifically car related.
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:52 PM   #7
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:06 PM   #8
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post
Here's a legal question for the RS's local constabulary.

ICBC will be dusting off and firing up their facial recognition computer to help identify Vancouver rioters.

We know from previous discussions that only a peace officer/autoplan insurance agent can request an individual's driver's licence for the sole purpose of verifying that the individual is entitled and licence to operate a motor vehicle. For example, if I ran a video rental store I can't insist on specifically seeing your DL, but I can request "photo ID".

So with that in mind, it is reasonable to assume that the information contained within a DL is to be used only for the purpose of licencing that individual whom the DL belongs to to operate a motor vehicle (and the things that go along with it, insurance, penalties, etc..)

So would ICBC be using that information in an inappropriate way when attempting to identify a rioter smashing up a store window?

Should ICBC's use of that information be limited to identifying people involved in damaging property insured by ICBC?

I can't stand the idea of walking the streets amongst the same people who smashed up the city and I'm all for locking the perps away, but my concern is if that information was used to identify a rioter who was later let off because ICBC's data on that person was used in a way not originally intended.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point ICBC has only offered the use of their facial recognition software if police can obtain authorization from a judge to use it. So for police to be able to use it, they will have to go before a judge and have the use of it authorized.

I don't really see an issue with it as police already have access to drivers license photos. If police can not locate a photograph of a suspect, we can apply before a judge or judicial justice of the peace to obtain a production order. A production order in this type of case would order ICBC to produce the drivers licence photograph to police.

As a citizen, I have no problem with ICBC making my photograph available to police because I would never put myself in a situation where I risk being criminally charged with anything, making it no big deal if the police have my photograph.
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:36 PM   #10
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Thanks for your response.

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As a citizen, I have no problem with ICBC making my photograph available to police because I would never put myself in a situation where I risk being criminally charged with anything, making it no big deal if the police have my photograph.
There's also the flip side of that.. I as someone who would never put myself in a position where I risk being criminally charged see no reason for the police to have free access to my information and photograph.

I do agree that once someone has broken the law, all bets as to their privacy are off. I see no reason for ICBC to withhold information on a person should that person be involved in damaging property insured by ICBC.

On the other hand, I would hope that a judge would refuse to force ICBC to hand over information on their customers if the crime it isn't related to an ICBC insured vehicle. Sadly because so many people are rather lax about how their personal information is collected and distributed, I don't have faith that this would be the case.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:03 PM   #11
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On the other hand, I would hope that a judge would refuse to force ICBC to hand over information on their customers if the crime it isn't related to an ICBC insured vehicle.
But WHY would a judge actually do that?
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Old 06-24-2011, 08:56 AM   #12
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I have used DL photos from the ICBC database in a personation investigation. Needed a search warrant, a lot of paperwork and a lot of time. Almost not worth the effort. Your picture is encoded in the magnetic strip on the back of your DL and Police will be able to access it when the software and politics permit them to grab it from the in-car swiper that is currently installed in many Police cars. They won't need to stop you while driving to access that picture. Name and DOB will get them that, as it currently does for criminal and driving records and previous Polce contacts that are in the database.
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
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If you're parking illegally, how is that different from a moving violation in that the officer in both cases would look up your registration information in order to issue you a ticket?

Unless the parking agency is using the information in a different way.
I'm talking about PRIVATE parking agencies like Impark who can easily sell your info or anyone else's info for that matter.

Don't you find it a little disturbing that they can get so much info from you from just your make/colour + license plate?
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:27 AM   #14
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I'm talking about PRIVATE parking agencies like Impark who can easily sell your info or anyone else's info for that matter.

Don't you find it a little disturbing that they can get so much info from you from just your make/colour + license plate?
I would be worried about the information being sold or misused. I would hope that there are strict controls on what companies like Impark can do with that information, but given people's rather nonchalant attitude towards how their personal information is stored and distributed, I doubt this is the case.

I hardly think the chick with half-naked drunken pics on facebook for everyone to see cares about who has access to their vehicle registration information, unfortunately.
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Old 06-24-2011, 11:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
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As a citizen, I have no problem with ICBC making my photograph available to police because I would never put myself in a situation where I risk being criminally charged with anything, making it no big deal if the police have my photograph.
Oh god I hate that attitude.

"I don't do anything wrong, so what does it matter?"

Well, I'll tell you what it matters.

I want to know that if I look similar to a rioter, I'm not going to have police knocking on my door.

I want to know that if their names are similar to mine, I'm not going to have police knocking on my door.

Hell...I live a good life. I don't drink. I pay most of my bills relatively on time I want to be left alone.

I can think of 1000 things that would make our streets safer, and catching criminals easier.

Think of the safe city we could live in with:

Roving police patrols asking for id and running you for outstanding warrants-it happens in arizona if you look like you could be an illegal immigrant, the police can ask you to prove your status.

Police having the power to suspend your license on the spot without the involvement of a judge for drunk driving-happens right here in BC

Erosions in due process to make the system faster and more efficient-happening right now all over North America-due process being the main tool to protect the idea that to wrongfully incriminate an innocent person is far worse than letting a guilty party go free

Yes, there is outrage at the riots. However, I do not support information that I provide for the purpose of operating a motor vehicle to be used in such a manner.
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Old 06-24-2011, 11:13 AM   #16
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"If I have nothing to hide, what do you have to gain from searching me?"

I'm a legal immigrant. I wouldn't appreciate being forced to carry my passport and immigration papers everywhere I go.

Sir, papers please.
Sorry, officer, can't you see I am out for a run? I don't have a way to carry my papers while out for a jog.
Sorry, sir, you're going to have to come with me. Hands behind your back, watch your head.. you'll get a phone call to a lawyer at the station.
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Old 06-24-2011, 05:07 PM   #17
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I saw that TV series...Banged up Abroad. Didn;t know they were filming in the LMD? Better stay outa Surrey !
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Old 06-24-2011, 08:26 PM   #18
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On the other hand, I would hope that a judge would refuse to force ICBC to hand over information on their customers if the crime it isn't related to an ICBC insured vehicle.
This is WORSE then car vandalism or insurance claim on a car.. This is Damaging to "OUR CITY!", Vancouver's reputation.
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Old 06-24-2011, 11:32 PM   #19
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I'm talking about PRIVATE parking agencies like Impark who can easily sell your info or anyone else's info for that matter.

Don't you find it a little disturbing that they can get so much info from you from just your make/colour + license plate?
I assume that there is an agreement with companies to obtain this information from ICBC. Same as private insurance companies. It's just that ICBC is also the Motor Vehicle Branch for this province. I think that in other provinces or states in the US, private companies have to approach the local Government's MVB to obtain that info as well, so I don't think this is something that is just ICBC is doing.
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Old 06-25-2011, 03:46 PM   #20
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I would ASSUME that they have an agreement in place. I would ASSUME that the privacy policy is specified in detail and I would ASSUME that they pay ICBC for the privilege.

However, here we are having to ASSUME that all this is done because I don't remember signing a disclaimer that says the wonderful folks at Impark, a fine organization of exemplary citizens is going to keep that data secure.
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:04 PM   #21
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Driving is a privilege.
Having a drivers license is a privilege.

If you don't like what the government does with your information, you have a simple choice: don't apply for a drivers license and don't drive.
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:13 PM   #22
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There's also the flip side of that..

...
You sure are anal about privacy, can I ask if your ethnic background seeing that you're an immigrant? I find certain backgrounds more anal than others, mostly cause they come from countries where the government cannot be trusted. Welcome to Canada, our government may suck at times, yet they tend to use our information for good, not evil.
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:55 PM   #23
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I don't care who I give my information to, ICBC, the phone company, hydro, etc.. I give my information to them in exchange for a product or service. I don't give them my information so they can do whatever they want with it.

As for my ethnic background, I'm from the UK.
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:22 PM   #24
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What's the big deal? because it involves mistakenly identifying someone? I don't get it.
You think your credit card companies don't submit your information? Cell phone companies? They're not supposed to but they find a way to be able to.

Who cares if ICBC helps find those that contributed to the riot? Privacy or no privacy, I'm sure they will help given Vancouver just fcked up their own city and probably caused ICBC a sht load of money for their misjudgements.
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:32 PM   #25
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I don't take issue with ICBC identifying people who damaged roperty insured by ICBC. But I do have an issue with ICBC using driving records to identify people who didn't damage anything insured by ICBC.


Let me ask you this then - why don't you care about who does what with your personal info?
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