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Old 09-29-2011, 09:38 AM   #1
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RCMP in BC: Stay or Go? What you think

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B.C., Ottawa at odds over RCMP contract
Dirk Meissner, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 7:40 PM

VICTORIA - The normally friendly relations between the federal Conservative government and B.C. Liberal government are being put to the test over talks to renew a 20-year contract with the RCMP in British Columbia.

B.C. Solicitor General Shirley Bond said she's received a take-it-or-leave it ultimatum from the Conservatives, including a threat to start pulling the Mounties out of the province.

Meanwhile the Conservatives said Wednesday that after four years of failed talks aimed at brokering a new deal, a deadline is approaching.

The federal Opposition New Democrats are using the RCMP contract dispute to take shots at the Conservatives' crime-fighting agenda, saying the federal government talks tough on crime, but is threatening to leave B.C. without police protection.

But a Simon Fraser University criminologist who frequently criticizes the RCMP's service record in B.C., says the B.C. government should seize the moment and leave the Mounties behind in favour of a new provincial force.

"It's just simply not acceptable that government would continue with this particular model which is obviously broken down," said Prof. Rob Gordon, a former police officer who has long advocated for a provincial force to police the province and replace the RCMP.

"Here we are thinking about renewing a contract with an organization that simply isn't working."

The Mounties in B.C. have come under heavy public fire in recent years for their handling of investigations and police incidents.

The RCMP faced public criticism over the investigation in the Air India terrorism bombing, the pursuit of serial killer Robert Willie Pickton and the taser-related death of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski at Vancouver International Airport.

Heritage Minister James Moore, B.C.'s Conservative caucus chief spokesman, told reporters in Ottawa the federal and B.C. governments have been negotiating the terms of the $800 million contract for the past four years and the deadline to conclude the agreement is approaching.

He did not directly say the federal government has threatened to start pulling the RCMP out of B.C. in 2014 if the province doesn't renew the contract by the end of November.

"Ultimatum, I think is a torqued word," said Moore. "I mean, the truth is you have to have a deadline. There is a deadline. The province has to step up."

He said the federal government and B.C. government agree on the cost of the contract and the funding formula over the next 20 years, but are deadlocked over governance issues, which include the coverage of unexpected costs over the 20-year deal.

"This is an $800 million obligation by the government of Canada," Moore said. "We want to make sure that those lids - that those costs are dealt with as well so we don't have unexpected increase to costs on either municipalities, the province or the federal government."

Peter Fassbender, the mayor of Langley, B.C. and a municipal observer at the negotiating table, said earlier provincial negotiators are concerned about cost issues like pension and CPP benefits, caps on salaries and how the force runs its headquarters in Ottawa.

Fassbender gave several examples where other costs have increased significantly and the federal government has failed to explain why.

He said the cost for the RCMP's yet-to-be completed divisional headquarters in Surrey was originally $300 million, but the price tag has now risen to $1.2 billion.

Moore said federal Public Safety Minister Vic Toews has signalled to Bond that the federal government wants to talk about governance.

Bond said Tuesday the province now is looking at the costs of a provincial police force in case further negotiations fail and the federal government makes good on its ultimatum.

Bond said the federal government has forwarded to British Columbia the RCMP contracts signed recently by Alberta and Saskatchewan, leaving the impression that if those two provinces can sign a deal, B.C. should be able to too.

She was unavailable for further comment Wednesday.

Federal New Democrat public safety critic Jasbir Sandhu said it appears the Conservatives are willing to leave B.C. without a police force to push through their contract demands.

"Clearly, for some reason, the Conservatives don't seem to be interested in the public safety of British Columbians," he said.

"The Conservatives aren't looking in the interest of the people of British Columbia because safety is important and to threaten B.C. with pulling out the RCMP is certainly not acceptable to me."

The Canadian Press, 2011



So what do you think?
- is RCMP too stretched out by doing federal and provincial work?
- since ONT and QUE have their own provincial police forces, do you think it would be wise to have BCPP?
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:50 PM   #2
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:28 PM   #3
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:31 PM   #4
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If they go does that mean theyre current tickets are rendered useless?
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassijon View Post
no one cares. cops suck regardless if they are delta police, new west police, vancouver police or rcmp.
They are the reason why your mom isn't gang raped in broad daylight, your grandma beaten to death on the street for 5 bucks, and you being able to sleep at home without a shotgun by your pillow.

ANYWAYS,

I doubt what the news printed is everything we know (surprise surprise). But it would cost a ridiculous amount of TIME AND MONEY if BC wanted to create a provincial force. Money they don't have, and time they don't have. This is what you would need to think about if you were to create a new force (off the top of my head, I am sure there is a TON more)

-someone to design a badge/logo/slogan for the force
-a recruiting dept
-a chief of the dept.
-head office
-equipment and uniforms
-cars
-police officers
-everything that goes into salaries, pensions, insurance etc.

I am sure there is much much more.. it is a lot complex than what a former cop at SFu thinks.. Having a provincial force may or may not be the right thing to do, but at this point, there is way too much to consider and plan to get done before next years contract expiration.
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassijon View Post
no one cares. cops suck regardless if they are delta police, new west police, vancouver police or rcmp.
Idiot ^^



....


Yeah anyways,

Well after contract expiry in march 2012, they have 2 years to phase out.
Honestly, I don't want them to go because of the cost factor. Look at what happened to the HST. people voted it out and now complain the services are cut. Even though the tax was supposed to be revenue neutral it still gathered revenue.
At the same, I want them to go. There is a reason why QUE and ONT are not wanting RCMP. Their PP works, so as long as we adapt a similar model, I think BCPP would work. At a cost. But, it's an investment that will prove to be cheaper in the longer run because the BC would set it's own wages and policies etc.

I think the agency left a big wet spot in BCs history and it would be nice to start fresh.
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:22 PM   #7
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Pros and cons on renewing the contract, but I think they'll end up signing. It'd cost way more to get rid of them and start fresh rather than just resigning the contract.
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:36 PM   #8
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no one cares. cops suck regardless if they are delta police, new west police, vancouver police or rcmp.
fuck tha police! they be mad hatin on us.

...they see me rollin
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:29 PM   #9
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:30 PM   #10
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The RCMP - are they compensated by National Tax dollars or provincials?

If there is a BCPD - will that be paid using provincial tax dollars? I would think so right?

In this case, I would support the RCMP who are paid by federal tax (assuming)..

someone correct me if i'm wrong...
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:33 PM   #11
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I really hope they get rid of them,

when you get pulled over by vpd or delta pd, they are much nicer than rcmp, seems like their generally getting more aggressive towards everything, stop killing people with tasers
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:46 PM   #12
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Cassijon, feel free to share your harassment story. I get harassment about my car, but it doesn't mean I hate them and they suck. They're doing their job. As hard as it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_handheld View Post
The RCMP - are they compensated by National Tax dollars or provincials?

If there is a BCPD - will that be paid using provincial tax dollars? I would think so right?

In this case, I would support the RCMP who are paid by federal tax (assuming)..

someone correct me if i'm wrong...
Im pretty sure They are paid by the Feds who get the money from the provinces. The province does get a break for hiring the RCMP.
if we had BCPP then it would be paid by the province.
The RCMP would not leave entirely because there needs to be a unit looking after federal issues (terrorism etc).
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:48 PM   #13
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The three times ive been pulled over is by RCMP, so i really dont care if they go. The latest one was just outside of Little Fort, cop had nothing better to do so he gave me a work order for my truck.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:06 PM   #14
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:16 PM   #15
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because of the way i look, ive been harassed by the rcmp SO MANY TIMES!

lets see.. 1st example,

driving home from work one night, i get pulled over. (this is when i used to drive an H2) not speeding or anything, actually just speeding up to get to the speed limit on hwy 91 from alderbridge. cop tells me to get out, puts cuffs on me and starts searching my car. takes everything out of the consoles, under the seats, undoes my daughter's carseat in the back, pulls out all the floor mats. this whole time im sitting on the side of the road in the rain, and when he's done, i ask him why? what was his reasoning for pulling me over and searching my truck. he says, we have a suspicion that you are involved in illegal activity. end of the story, they let me go after 45 mins

2nd example,

i own my own business in richmond. one day someone tries to break in by bashing my bay door with his pickup truck. i had the WHOLE thing on video tape. called the cops, gave him the dvd with the footage and told him who i think might have done it. they find out it WAS him from the license plate on the truck, and the guy tells him that my company owes him money blah blah blah... truth is, i severed any business relationship with him and stopped supplying him because i didnt like his attitude and he wanted to get me back. but after him speaking with the cops, they didnt press any charges, and came back at me and told me next time not to lie to them about owing other ppl money. and that they just gave him a warning.

3rd example,

my license plates got jacked from my truck in the middle of the night one day, and on my way to the insurance company to get new plates, i get pulled over by 3 cop cars on 3 rd, guns drawn and demanding me to get out like i just carjacked somebody... i told them what happened and where i was going and they still gave me a ticket for over $300 after making me sit in the cop car for over an hour.

4th example,

christmas time, driving with my wifey and my 1.5 yr old daughter on our way to get pictures with santa taken. punk kid rear ends us because he is texting on his phone. rear ends us to hard that his car gets totaled. i walk up to the car after making sure my girls are ok, and i demand his phone, since i saw it in his hand. long story short, i scared him enough that he gave it to me and i found texts from him and his friend at the EXACT time he hit us. i held onto the phone until the cops got there and the first bitch cop comes over to me and started yelling and swearing at me through my window (all the while, my kid is sitting in the carseat) and bitches me out for 10 mins that i cant take the other driver's phone because i can get charged for assault. and its all up to her if she wants to or not.


do i need more examples?
1st : they can do that if they think you're a suspicious person..
2nd : cant you take him to court ? you have the proof, jsut because the police didn't do anything doesnt mean you cant..nothing illegal ofcourse or that can get you in trouble.
3rd : fight the ticket ?
4rd : you're harassing the kid and now YOU complain of being harassed by cops?

tbh i want them to stay, not only becuz thats my field of choice i want to do when i'm older, but because they keep us safe. Wether it's from ppl like you who utter threats or thiefs/rapists/killers
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:22 PM   #16
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:25 PM   #17
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[QUOTE=Cassijon;7595995] i walk up to the car after making sure my girls are ok, and i demand his phone, since i saw it in his hand. long story short, i scared him enough that he gave it to me and i found texts from him and his friend at the EXACT time he hit us. i held onto the phone until the cops got there /QUOTE]

Don't think you should of 'demanded' anything from that kid except for his information, or gone through his personal texts. Wtf lol
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:28 PM   #18
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:37 PM   #19
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1st: just because they can do that, i dont have the right to hate them for doing it? especially since it wasnt the first time? prob about the 15th time that's happened
2nd: i wanted the guy to get arrested or fined for attempted break and enter and destruction of private property.
3rd: ya i fought the ticket and won
4: i harassed the kid? shut the fuck up!. if you are driving with ur 1.5 yr old and get rear ended at a stop light by a punk kid that is texing and not paying attention, dont tell me that you wouldnt yell at him and do the same thing


its easy for an idiot like yourself to say that you can do this, you can do that.. but if it hasnt happened to you or doesnt happen to you, u dont know how stressful, time wasting and a piss off all those things really are. you TOO would develop a hatred for them.
1. i didn't say you dont have the right to hate them, all i said was they can do that..
2. good, the guy deserves it. Maybe shoulda followed up with another agent ? or chief or sheriff of some police dept ?
3. good for you (not saying in a sarcastic way)
4. there's a diff between harassing the kid and yelling at him. i woulda done the latter. But i think theres a line somewhere in there that we can't cross or we ourselves can get in trouble. and no i wont stfu because that IS harassing, whether you were right or wrong.

Yes , and since i've been harassed as well , countless times, and IM the idiot then so are you

ps : harass : 1.to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.
2.
to trouble by repeated attacks, incursions, etc., as in war or hostilities;

so yes you WERE harassing him
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:38 PM   #20
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damn punk kids.....

and are you sure cops had their guns drawn... this isn't the states, I thought in Canada you can't pull guns unless the officer is threatened.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:42 PM   #21
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damn punk kids.....

and are you sure cops had their guns drawn... this isn't the states, I thought in Canada you can't pull guns unless the officer is threatened.
yes, guns drawn. not something that i would forget.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:54 PM   #22
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:31 PM   #23
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I really hope they get rid of them,

when you get pulled over by vpd or delta pd, they are much nicer than rcmp,
This,

One time I got pulled over in Delta for a routine check. After that he asked what mods I had on my Civic, then asked me if I ever go into Richmond alot.

I told him of course then he just told me to be careful of the Richmond RCMP since they're picky on modded cars.
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassijon View Post
because of the way i look, ive been harassed by the rcmp SO MANY TIMES!

lets see.. 1st example,

driving home from work one night, i get pulled over. (this is when i used to drive an H2) not speeding or anything, actually just speeding up to get to the speed limit on hwy 91 from alderbridge. cop tells me to get out, puts cuffs on me and starts searching my car. takes everything out of the consoles, under the seats, undoes my daughter's carseat in the back, pulls out all the floor mats. this whole time im sitting on the side of the road in the rain, and when he's done, i ask him why? what was his reasoning for pulling me over and searching my truck. he says, we have a suspicion that you are involved in illegal activity. end of the story, they let me go after 45 mins

2nd example,

i own my own business in richmond. one day someone tries to break in by bashing my bay door with his pickup truck. i had the WHOLE thing on video tape. called the cops, gave him the dvd with the footage and told him who i think might have done it. they find out it WAS him from the license plate on the truck, and the guy tells him that my company owes him money blah blah blah... truth is, i severed any business relationship with him and stopped supplying him because i didnt like his attitude and he wanted to get me back. but after him speaking with the cops, they didnt press any charges, and came back at me and told me next time not to lie to them about owing other ppl money. and that they just gave him a warning.

3rd example,

my license plates got jacked from my truck in the middle of the night one day, and on my way to the insurance company to get new plates, i get pulled over by 3 cop cars on 3 rd, guns drawn and demanding me to get out like i just carjacked somebody... i told them what happened and where i was going and they still gave me a ticket for over $300 after making me sit in the cop car for over an hour.

4th example,

christmas time, driving with my wifey and my 1.5 yr old daughter on our way to get pictures with santa taken. punk kid rear ends us at a red light because he is texting on his phone. rear ends us to hard that his car gets totaled. i walk up to the car after making sure my girls are ok, and i demand his phone, since i saw it in his hand. long story short, i scared him enough that he gave it to me and i found texts from him and his friend at the EXACT time he hit us. i held onto the phone until the cops got there and the first bitch cop comes over to me and started yelling and swearing at me through my window (all the while, my kid is sitting in the carseat) and bitches me out for 10 mins that i cant take the other driver's phone because i can get charged for assault. and its all up to her if she wants to or not.


do i need more examples?
honestly, besides the 2nd example, the others don't seem extreme at all. You seem to cry victim a lot. People get randomly searched al the time. your vehicle may have matched description of a call that was in, and when you are cuffed, you are not under arrest. It is for the safety of the officers. In the fourth example, you may have been reacting in the heat of the moment, but reflecting back, can you honestly say that taking the phone away from another person is reasonable? But then again, coming from someone who threatened me over the internet to come over and assault me with a shotgun doesn't show me any reason to give you any benefit of the doubt.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:01 PM   #25
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This,

One time I got pulled over in Delta for a routine check. After that he asked what mods I had on my Civic, then asked me if I ever go into Richmond alot.

I told him of course then he just told me to be careful of the Richmond RCMP since they're picky on modded cars.
The funny thing is, I have experienced the complete opposite... It is all luck of the draw though. I have never been pulled over by anyone except the RCMP or VPD... VPD imo, have all given me attitude and had a "I am better than you" vibe. Not saying I really care, because at the end of the day if they are doing their job, then they don't have to smile and act nice to me. With the RCMP, they seem more like real people, and actually seem to care about customer service. That is just my experience though.

Anyways, here is a copy and paste from another forum with good point on why the RCMP is actually more cost effective than a provincial force,

"I can't really understand what BC is thinking....

No way in hell do they save money by setting up and maintaining their own police force...equipment, recruiting, training etc..

Plus the comments about accountability? Seriously? They're going to pin the mistakes made by a small number of members on the 99.9% who go about their days in a professional and dignified manner? Perhaps the politicians should discuss dissolving parliament every time one of their own does/says something stupid/illegal.[/quote]

It's not even the start up costs. The muni's have real unions which means higher pay, about 10k+ for VPD full cst. over an RCMP one, plus two man cars and all these other things. Don't tell me the RCMP doesn't come at a significant discount. Trying to cap the cost when we're already hurting for more members and certain equipment, no, just no. Let them complain that the RCMP are the one's walking away from the table... I firmly believe they wouldn't have done so if the prov. gov't wasn't being unreasonable. I have nothing to base this on, but walking away from the table typically only happens when one side just won't compromise to a degree where both sides could meet.

I have no problems with lowering costs or budgets but stop blaming the RCMP when service quality drops"
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