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Old 01-11-2012, 06:25 PM   #51
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young people who are down there from like 16-18 until they are 40 because "my dad used to hit me"
Those people are straight up losers,who blame anything and everything but themselves.

Fuck,growing up in a Asian home,I was beaten from a young age every week up till my early teens with the chicken feather duster,my parents broke a few of them on me too.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:37 PM   #52
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our province has some real stupid shit going on in it, don't even know what to say.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:35 PM   #53
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This sounds completely idiotic only when considered from a very simple standpoint "we're giving alcoholics free alcohol." Yes that statement sounds ridiculous. But when you consider the goal of harm reduction programs, which is to do exactly that reduce harm and thus secondarily reduce healthcare costs, it actually has potential to save us money. It stings because as a taxpayer you feel like you're paying for some homeless person to drink alcohol. True that may be the case, but it may end up leaving more money in your pockets ultimately since those people are no longer getting sick and requiring extremely expensive hospitalizations from abusing hand sanitizer.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:39 PM   #54
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lol they should give the liqs to the natives
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:50 PM   #55
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Okay, here's the deal people. There have now been 72 points that have been given out in this thread. I have banned two people for a total of two months.


THE NEXT ASS WHO THINKS HE'S FUNNY BY MAKING A CRACK ABOUT FIRST NATIONS WILL RECEIVE A PERMABAN. AS WILL EVERY ASS AFTER HIM.


There will be no exceptions for those "oh, but I didn't read the previous pages", so if anyone gets a ban and wants an appeal, you can come ask for one at the spring meet to my face where you can explain why you think it's funny to be racist.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:16 AM   #56
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lets stop working n say gass is to expensive so the gov pays for it
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:59 AM   #57
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This sounds completely idiotic only when considered from a very simple standpoint "we're giving alcoholics free alcohol." Yes that statement sounds ridiculous. But when you consider the goal of harm reduction programs, which is to do exactly that reduce harm and thus secondarily reduce healthcare costs, it actually has potential to save us money. It stings because as a taxpayer you feel like you're paying for some homeless person to drink alcohol. True that may be the case, but it may end up leaving more money in your pockets ultimately since those people are no longer getting sick and requiring extremely expensive hospitalizations from abusing hand sanitizer.
Legal businesses have jump thew a bunch of hoops just to get a liquor license and then follow very strict rules on how much they can serve and who they can serve.

Who's going to check for ID at this place? Who's going to stop them when they have had too much to drink, who's going to stop them when they get into a fight, and where are they going to go when they are hammered? I someone gets too drunk and walks into the middle of the street and gets hit by a car who's going to take responsibility?

not only will they have to be provided with alcohol they will have to be provided with security, and some type of holding cell when they get too unruly.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:19 AM   #58
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Legal businesses have jump thew a bunch of hoops just to get a liquor license and then follow very strict rules on how much they can serve and who they can serve.

Who's going to check for ID at this place? Who's going to stop them when they have had too much to drink, who's going to stop them when they get into a fight, and where are they going to go when they are hammered? I someone gets too drunk and walks into the middle of the street and gets hit by a car who's going to take responsibility?

not only will they have to be provided with alcohol they will have to be provided with security, and some type of holding cell when they get too unruly.
A holding cell would be illegal, I suspect, but I digress.

The article is completely lacking in details, which is why I choose not to take a position. The only information provided in the article is a basic background of the man leading it, some scant details on what it will provide and to whom, along with the cost and length of term it will run. It's difficult to make any legitimate conclusions based on that.

It is a research program and will require a membership, so my hope is that solid measurable data will be collected to determine if this is having a positive impact on the community and lessening the problem at hand before moving beyond the research phase. It seems similar to methadone clinics in that is a maintenance and harm reduction program, which have been well researched and proven successful in the past.
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Old 01-12-2012, 03:56 AM   #59
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man... should throw all these bums all onto a deserted island... if they take their liveds for granted and just throw it away, they dont deserve one at all...


I dont mind people who have lows in their life and gets welfare.. but to say on it forever and do shit with your life, thats just retarded...
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:18 AM   #60
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Harm reduction programs is fucking bullshit.
No fucking shit it saves us money in form of healthcare. A fucking monkey could tell you that. The point is that we should not be encouraging activities that are a)illegal and/or b)disruptive to society. The point is, TAX PAYER money, should be spent on people who contribute or are unable (children, disabled people, the elderly) to contribute to society; not those that just choose not to. If you want to get clean and get a job, we should give you money for that; in form of rehab, temporary address/clothes/help for job application, etc. But giving free crack pipes, places to shoot up, places to get drunk; is fucking retarded. Why are we helping people who clearly don't give a shit.
Furthermore, I don't care if I get failed into oblivion, but just because you're alive, does not mean you have the RIGHT to be. Your life is worth what you put in. And if you're living on the street, wasting your life away on drugs and alcohol; then your life is worth nothing. Millions of people in third world countries are derelict through no fault of their own. And you have these assholes who choose to be a worthless leech on society. If they do not take advantage of how they've won the lottery of life, being born in a 1st world country, then we should let them die, and direct all money currently going to them, to matters like hot lunch programs for kids who don't get to eat, disabled people, the elderly, 3rd world country support, etc.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:26 AM   #61
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Alright...let me preface this by saying that yes, I think everyone in life has a choice as to how they are going to live it. I do NOT agree with giving alcohol to alcoholics on the DTES and in fact, the who situation on the DTES annoys the fuck outta me (read my posts on the "crack anyone?" thread).

I do, however, sympathize and understand how some First Nations people have chosen this type of life-style. You need to remember that barely a generation ago, FN people and families were torn apart. Children/teenagers were ripped from their parents, given new names, fed new food, forced to accept a different religion, forced to speak a different language, and in some cases physically and sexually abuse. Their identities were stolen. Everything you ever knew in life was now dead. Their parents and other family members were scooped up and placed on little shitty squares of land and told to start a new life as well.

Imagine being 8 years old....picked up in a truck on day and taken to a place far from your family. You have no communication with them, can no longer communicate in your language with them, you don't know where they are or if they are alive. You are then forced to live in a quasi-prison setting with hundreds of other children, all in similar situations. When you are old enough and have been assimilated enough to "european" ways-of-life, you are then pointed towards the door. Now what? There is no home to go back to...there is no family to go back to...what do you do? Unfortunately as certain number of those in that situation chose a life on the DTES. In all, over 150,000 children were places in residential schools. Try taking twice the population of New West, pulling a "men in black" memory erasing maneuver on them and then expecting each to be a normal contributing member of society after.

It is not as easy as, "just go to the rez". FN Reserves are usually on crappy pieces of land, in crappy areas far away from the eye of the people who put them there, and can not support an entire population of FN people. There is limited space and sometime not electricity or running water. Also, in regards to "free" education and not paying tax, it isn't just that easy. There are rules, guidelines, regulations, and an approval system. It is not about just waking up one day and signing up for uni for free. You don't really get "free hand-outs on reserve". Maybe you should education yourself on how the reserve system works and the differences between status and non-status.

Think all this residential school bullshit was in the past and "they" should just get over it? Mandatory attendance ended only in 1948 and the last school closed in 1996. For some of us, that is out parents generation. The Canadian gov't fucked an entire generation of people. Do some reading and research...and when you are done, pick you jaw up off the floor, and adjust your thoughts towards FN people of Canada.

In all reality, what does this all mean and how is this relevant to the gov't giving out free crack pipes, needles, and now alcohol? nothing really. But to sit there and chirp off that this is a FN/Native issue and that this is one more free thing they get, is bullshit.

Sorry that this was off-topic....keep calm and carry on.
Despite my previous unecessary remarks. I do SEE the point you are making. Yes the first nations people have had a rough history with surviving. I dont think it is 100% the governments fault or the assimilation into "european lifestles" that is fully to blame. A lot of has to do with their attitudes towards change. A lot of natives are too used to their traditional ways of doing things.

Sometimes I think maybe it was best their kids are forced to be taken away and learn this "new lifestyle". Think of it this way I am not saying that ALL natives are alcoholics BUT imagine how much it would suck be staying with an alcoholic father who physically beat and sexually raped you. I honestly think it is for the best interest of the child and giving them a chance at a future that will prevent them from going into the wrong direction.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:58 AM   #62
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Despite my previous unecessary remarks. I do SEE the point you are making. Yes the first nations people have had a rough history with surviving. I dont think it is 100% the governments fault or the assimilation into "european lifestles" that is fully to blame. A lot of has to do with their attitudes towards change. A lot of natives are too used to their traditional ways of doing things.

Sometimes I think maybe it was best their kids are forced to be taken away and learn this "new lifestyle". Think of it this way I am not saying that ALL natives are alcoholics BUT imagine how much it would suck be staying with an alcoholic father who physically beat and sexually raped you. I honestly think it is for the best interest of the child and giving them a chance at a future that will prevent them from going into the wrong direction.
Ummm....I am really not sure how to respond to this and I am a little at a loss for words, but I will try.

Ok...FN children were not taken away from their families because of abuse. They were taken away from their families and assimilated to a "european" way-of-life because the powers that be, thought their life-style was wrong and theirs was right. Traditional First Nation lifestyle WRONG, White-European Lifestyle RIGHT. Think about that...

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A lot of natives are too used to their traditional ways of doing things.
Too use to their traditional ways of doing things? Is there such a thing?

Read this again, because I am not sure you realized what you said, because instead of using the term "native", you mean "people". Nobody likes change. Everyone likes to maintain their traditional ways....hell, look at the Lower Mainland. People can move to this region and still maintain their traditional life-style. You can move here, keep your language, religion, diet, culture, have your house modified, use traditional medicine, etc...When you move to this country, regardless of where you came from, you are NOT required to assimilate to a "Canadian" way of life. I think is one of the best things about living here! I have been to some of the whitest places in NA and it tripped the fuck outta me! It was like some weird "children of the corn" horror movie nightmare.

Now picture this (please excuse my blatant stereo-typing as I am only doing so to prove a point)...I pick up my shit...move to, let's say, Japan. I walk up to someone's house and kick the door in. Meet the family and you know what? no more chop sticks...here is a fork! Also, we are now sitting on chairs! Say good-bye to Buddhism, you are all now Christians! Here is a bible-learn it, live it! You like sushi!? Too bad...have a bowl of poutine and ham! Also, this whole Japanese language is confusing as FUCK, so it is English from now on...oh, and if I hear you speaking Japanese, I get to punch you. In regards to sports...here is a hockey stick, no more sumo for you! No more traditional medicine, from this day forward you must forget everything and whoever you were before. Like J-pop? Too bad, here is a Nickleback CD. YOU ARE A NEW PERSON! Everything you did before was WRONG and I am RIGHT, so you need to do this or I will beat you.

How well would that go over? Sounds a little ridiculous, ya think? Now when people watching this protest...you say that it is okay, because they just don't like change-ya know, typical Japanese people. I am saving them from a life a strict parents and being forced to get the best grade in the class. I am saving them from a live of having to be doctors and mathematicians because my way-of-life is RIGHT.

Now, this scenario is total bull-shit and would hopefully never happened now, but it did happen not that long ago.

We go go around and around talking about this subject for days. I realize everyone has different thoughts and opinions but all I ask is that you put yourself in that position. Take you own way-of-life and think about it being raped from you. How would you respond? I am not saying it is an excuse to abuse drugs and alcohol or to live a life of crime, all I am saying is that have some empathy towards FNs people and that struggles some have had as a result of the treatment the Gov't.

I feel like I am talking in circles....I am sorry of this doesn't make any sense.
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:05 AM   #63
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In regards to the actual point of this thread:

I don't agree with giving out alcohol to addicts. If we are trying to throw money at the situation, I would like to see it go towards rehab facilities, prevention, and recovery and mental health programs.

This is not a FN (Native) issue, this is not a "white" issue, or any other ethnic or racial group issue. This is an addict and mentally ill issue.

Without a doubt, the partial closure of RiverView and the cuts to mental health has added to the issues on the DTES. There should be more focus on that.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:48 AM   #64
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Despite my previous unecessary remarks. I do SEE the point you are making. Yes the first nations people have had a rough history with surviving. I dont think it is 100% the governments fault or the assimilation into "european lifestles" that is fully to blame. A lot of has to do with their attitudes towards change. A lot of natives are too used to their traditional ways of doing things.

Sometimes I think maybe it was best their kids are forced to be taken away and learn this "new lifestyle". Think of it this way I am not saying that ALL natives are alcoholics BUT imagine how much it would suck be staying with an alcoholic father who physically beat and sexually raped you. I honestly think it is for the best interest of the child and giving them a chance at a future that will prevent them from going into the wrong direction.
Oh yes man. Your explanation of your previous unnecessary with your new unnecessary remarks has done you a world of good.

I totally agree with you. It's not 100% the governments fault-if the natives had just given up and assimilated faster, then there wouldn't be any issue now!

And shit! Once again I'm totally in agreement-not ALL your posts are stupid but imagine what it would be like to have to listen to this shit in person. Maybe it would be better to knock on your door and take your kids away to save them from having to listen to it.

No one deserves to have their kids taken from them for no reason-and raising your kids the best you can in the traditions in which you were raised in is not a reason! Period.

Human history is littered with forced relocations in the name of the greater good. It's never been acceptable, and its never worked! Not for the people anyway. Forcing the children into the residential schools was a forced relocation for the purpose of breaking the will of the native people. And like so many others, its worked for the power, and not for the people relocated.

In this very thread, people-wait, you, have treated natives as second class citizens. For that, you should be sorry.

None of this means that I think we should be holding their hands and taking them to a free bar to pickle themselves, but it means that we have A LOT of work to do in overcoming past mistakes.

And that work has a long way to go if there are people that will openly say, or type that they don't even think the problem occurred in the first place, and they should just get over it. I think they do need to move on from it, and there is a huge difference. I do commend this guy for trying to come up with something, I just think its in the wrong direction.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:49 PM   #65
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I hate bullshit like this that just enables people's addiction, calling it a disease that we should all be wearing ribbons or running miles for.

This sort of thing just makes me wonder why I'm not an alcoholic or a drug addict because apparently you can do dick all, leech off the government and they'll still trip all over themselves trying to give you free alcohol/drugs because "oh, we have to help the poor, addicted masses in the DTES.". Why punish the functioning, useful part of society and reward the people that have no desire to benefit anything but their drinking habit?

If this shit goes through, we should petition for our own drinking club...free RS club booze for everyone!
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:02 PM   #66
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Despite my previous unecessary remarks. I do SEE the point you are making. Yes the first nations people have had a rough history with surviving. I dont think it is 100% the governments fault or the assimilation into "european lifestles" that is fully to blame. A lot of has to do with their attitudes towards change. A lot of natives are too used to their traditional ways of doing things.

Sometimes I think maybe it was best their kids are forced to be taken away and learn this "new lifestyle". Think of it this way I am not saying that ALL natives are alcoholics BUT imagine how much it would suck be staying with an alcoholic father who physically beat and sexually raped you. I honestly think it is for the best interest of the child and giving them a chance at a future that will prevent them from going into the wrong direction.
Residential schools had nothing to do with removing Native children from unhealthy situations, they were designed to purge the community of traditional culture andf convert the children to christianity. Had it no been for dedication Native people have as a community to preserving that culture, they may have been successful and the work by artists like Bill Reid would never have existed.

Furthermore, you're insinuating that prior to 1946 all Native parents were alcoholics who molested their children and residential schools were refuges. That's a ridiculous statement, even if it were true however, why would a native child who is subject to abuse need to be handled differently than a European one. In reality, the stories of sexual and physical abuse in residential schools are so common one would think it was almost standard policy to abuse the children.

I hope you take the time to educate yourself on this tragic portion of Canadian and Native history.
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:14 AM   #67
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So this is what I wrote. Sent the e-mail to my MLA, a member of the NDP and the premier.

So often lately, I have complained when I hear of these hand-outs, and I forget that I do have a voice. Ms. Black, specifically, you are my voice.

So here is a member of your constituency telling you straight out that this is a ridiculous idea. I don't care about the logic behind it, or the sense it makes in people's lives. I do not support free alcohol for alcoholics. Let's add to the list of other freebies we've handed out lately:

Free stop smoking aids for smokers. Smokers, that I might add CAN AFFORD TO SMOKE
Free crack pipes for crack users.
Free alcohol for illicit alcohol abusers

And yet we're in the middle of a recession, operating in the red, but its been a real field day for the portion of the province that contributes nothing, but takes everything.

So here you go. I'm a middle class citizen that works more than most to build a life for myself. So far, my MSP gets raised, the HST boondoggle has caused confusion for my clients and frustration for everyone, and I get nailed with carbon tax credits for a truck that I must operate for work purposes.

I'm too rich for the hand-outs and too poor to rise above the whole thing.

You know what would really help it out? A nice, free drink. So if the honorable ladies that are the recipients of this e-mail would like to help me out, I like my scotch to be old enough to order its own scotch.

Thank you.

It's just that easy guys.

Look up who your MLA is in case they have done nothing for you lately, and you forgot their name.

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Just wanted to post a follow up that I did get a response from my MLA. Nada from the premier, but she's a busy lady for the likes of little ole me.

"Thanks for your message.
I believe this is a proposal which is supported by a group who are active in Vancouver’s downtown eastside. There is currently an eight-patient pilot program underway there and in other cities so professionals can judge if this type of “harm reduction” program would assist hard-core alcoholics (including those drinking Listerine, hand sanitizer, rubbing alcohol etc.) to reduce or abstain from drinking. I will be interested to see the results of the pilot program.
As you may know, my colleagues and I in the Official Opposition Caucus speak out frequently against the repeated increases in many fees and charges which are negatively affecting all British Columbians. MSP premium increases, Hydro rate increases, BC Ferries fare increases and, of course, the HST are just some of the items causing hardship for many.
Thanks for sending me your comments.
Dawn Black"

So it sounds like she kind of supports it.
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:56 AM   #68
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All I got from that message was:
We're testing it out, but don't worry, Im one of the good guys.

Pc responses suck.
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Old 01-28-2012, 09:16 AM   #69
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got to be honest, I really wasn't expecting my NDP MLA to send back a response that said, "I'm sick of this shit too"

I agree with a lot of the list of money items at the end of her e-mail, but when I read it I was just thinking, "you guys are going to come up with way worse stuff to spend money on"
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:21 AM   #70
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Managed-alcohol program helps battle addiction | Vancouver, Canada | Straight.com

This article was a much less senstationalized version.

TLDR:
Only 8 people.
Those 8 people were already addicted to "non-consumable alcohols" (listerine, hand sanitizer, etc etc) and this is a method of reducing the harmful effects of that.
It's a residential program (have to live there to get it). It costs about $350/mo/person, and it keeps all EIGHT of them out of hospital (where they would typically be).


I admit, I wasn't really a proponent of the program, though neither was I necessarily opposed initially. With this, I think I kind of get the point.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:25 AM   #71
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That's a much better article, all biases aside, it focuses on the program itself rather than irrelevant race and conveys excellent information.

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Joe was quick to state the results so far are “preliminary”. However, he said that, overall, drinking in the participant group has gone down significantly, binge drinking has been curtailed, and other side benefits have sprung up, such as renewed or improved contact with family. And if there are less visits to the emergency ward following seizures and falling down, there is less of a strain on the public purse, Joe added.
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:10 PM   #72
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i know quite a lot of these welfare guys and most of them are not as poor as the general population think they are. they get between 600-800 a month for their welfare check, on the side they do A LOT of cash jobs such as unloading oversea containers for warehouses, which usually yields them between 60-80 dollars per containers and they get free breakfast, lunch and dinner at their local churches. to be honest, they are making as much as my dad and my dad can support himself, a home and his whole family....i have no sympathy for them at all...
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:12 PM   #73
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i know quite a lot of these welfare guys and most of them are not as poor as the general population think they are. they get between 600-800 a month for their welfare check, on the side they do A LOT of cash jobs such as unloading oversea containers for warehouses, which usually yields them between 60-80 dollars per containers and they get free breakfast, lunch and dinner at their local churches. to be honest, they are making as much as my dad and my dad can support himself, a home and his whole family....i have no sympathy for them at all...
For every guy working the system, there is a guy shafted by the system.

Solution? You know of an abuse, report it. It might take awhile, but the more you can do to weed out the assholes from the system, the more people who can actually use the protections we're all supposed to be able to have.
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Old 01-28-2012, 06:23 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 46_valentinor View Post
i know quite a lot of these welfare guys and most of them are not as poor as the general population think they are. they get between 600-800 a month for their welfare check, on the side they do A LOT of cash jobs such as unloading oversea containers for warehouses, which usually yields them between 60-80 dollars per containers and they get free breakfast, lunch and dinner at their local churches. to be honest, they are making as much as my dad and my dad can support himself, a home and his whole family....i have no sympathy for them at all...
Seriously.....like Graeme S said,report that shit,report every single one of them for ripping off the system we taxpayers pay for.

Social services will do a full blown investigation,once they gather enough eveidence,they will make these people pay back every red cent that was given to them,plus be charged for fraud.
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