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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
I don't care if they buy all of the high end homes. If they rip it down and build new or even renovate, I'll be the one with lots of work to be done.
As of right now all I can do is dream about owning an entry level home outside of Vancouver.
White people drive up the prices just as much as Asians do, it's true. You guys don't see how many high end houses we build for clients that simply use these 10,000+ square foot homes as a weekend retreat simply because they don't like living in hotels.
Just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you doesnt mean they are lazy or dont work hard, or dont have money. I also played in the real-estate speculation game, I bought a lake-side condo in Penticton that I had no intention of ever living in. I was young and just wanted to make money, fortunately for me I grew up a little. I believe this type of investing is unethical, there are many ways to make money folks.
"Dont hate the player, hate the game". Thats the problem with this world, the game IS the problem..but we can choose to play it or not.
Did you rent the condo out?
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
If you look at condos, since 2009 they haven't made fuck all, barely keeping up with inflation. Why anyone would want to park that much money into an asset barely keeping up with inflation is beyond me.
This year we're already seeing records levels of inventory, and significantly lower sales than average, so there's nothing to indicate prices will increase - yet you never know.
For those watching bubbles, you'll be happy to know Australia has popped despite foreign ownership rules and being a destination for wealthy Asians. So I say let them come, buy as much as they can, hopefully it'll pop this bubble.
Condos aren't the main thing we're looking at. We're talking about detached family homes. For houses, it's not a bubble. The middle and upper class of China is only going to grow more. According to Immigration Canada, as of August 2011, there was a backlog of 300,000 Mainland China immigrants applying to BC specifically using the business class/investor visa, which now requires them to bring in $1.6M CAD in liquid cash. Based on what I hear from my realtor friends in Vancouver and now even London (they're buying up there and Sydney, Aus too), the vast majority have FAR, FAR more than $1.6M in liquid cash.
We're talking about people who land at YVR, and buy a $3M house in liquid cash the next day.
Just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you doesnt mean they are lazy or dont work hard, or dont have money. I also played in the real-estate speculation game, I bought a lake-side condo in Penticton that I had no intention of ever living in. I was young and just wanted to make money, fortunately for me I grew up a little. I believe this type of investing is unethical, there are many ways to make money folks.
"Dont hate the player, hate the game". Thats the problem with this world, the game IS the problem..but we can choose to play it or not.
The majority of lake side developments in the Okanagan aren't built with the local population in mind, they cater specifically to part-time residents and tourist rentals. With tourism being a driving force in the economy of the Okanagan and a significantly higher number of condo units on the market than would ever be necessary to serve the needs of the local population, I'm not sure how investing in real estate there could be considered unethical.
We're talking about people who land at YVR, and buy a $3M house in liquid cash the next day.
That's awesome.
Agent makes money, homeowner makes money, and the government makes money. It they don't live here that's even better. there paying the city for things like garbage collection and they are not even using it. Let's also not forget the other businesses that will benefit, like maintenance.
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
Just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you doesnt mean they are lazy or dont work hard, or dont have money. I also played in the real-estate speculation game, I bought a lake-side condo in Penticton that I had no intention of ever living in. I was young and just wanted to make money, fortunately for me I grew up a little. I believe this type of investing is unethical, there are many ways to make money folks.
"Dont hate the player, hate the game". Thats the problem with this world, the game IS the problem..but we can choose to play it or not.
I didn't say that anyone was lazy or that they don't work hard.
But I'm a realist. In one of your first posts here, you say that you're going to China in the coming months to volunteer program. You have my complete respect. However, at the end of it what's going to change? You're going to go back to Canada and share your horror stories with everyone you know when the reality is you've only touched the tip of the ice berg.
Yes, the problem IS the game, but either play it or be left behind. It would be nice if we could all wake up tomorrow and have the world's problems disappear, but is that going to happen?
Human beings are evil and greedy. They naturally want more out of life. From your perspective, you have everything that someone coming out of a first world nation can have. Volunteering for a few weeks might give you a bit of pride and make you feel that you're doing something for the world. But what's going to change?
Maybe instead of coming out here and trying to solve problems out of your reach, you can start by helping the homeless in Vancouver. Socialism doesn't work and doesn't do good for the society. How many times have you heard stories of the bums on East Hastings begging for money for food? And when you actually buy them a sandwich, they'll just go and throw it away?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic!
Did you rent the condo out?
No, I sold it. At the time it seemed like the smart thing to do..the market was strong and it was easy money. I still think this is a viable strategy for new buyers trying to work their way up to a better home, my issue is when extremely rich people engage in this type of investing..like the previous poster mentioned "the game"...some people see the world as a game and just want to make as much money as the can even if they dont need it. Once we stop looking at this world as a game, we can start building a future for all the people instead of a fortunate few.
You know, I really don't mean to critisize the rich and I certainly don't single out the Chinese...I just try to spread my view of the world, and hope that once people have built a comfortable life for themselves they can think of helping others instead of just amassing more wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber
The majority of lake side developments in the Okanagan aren't built with the local population in mind, they cater specifically to part-time residents and tourist rentals. With tourism being a driving force in the economy of the Okanagan and a significantly higher number of condo units on the market than would ever be necessary to serve the needs of the local population, I'm not sure how investing in real estate there could be considered unethical.
Im glad you asked this question. You are correct, most people buying those condo's are not locals, but wealthy tourists buying a Summer home. Myself, I had no intention of living in the condo, I simply wanted to hold it, then sell it at a higher price.
But why? If I hadn't flipped it, someone else who really wanted to live there could have bought it for the pre-construction price. So what happened? They still got their condo, but they had to pay a significantly higher price..possibly eating into their savings/retirement fund. I didn't offer any service to the public, all I did was create more burden in someone elses life, simply so I could make a profit.
I won't be doing that type of investing anymore. I have enough money to live a great life (most of us do, we just have an appetite for material objects), so I make sure all of my future investments at least offer a service or help others in addition to making me profit.
EDIT- by the way, this is the same reason why I don't buy futures contracts or commodities. . I'm having an even more difficult time trying to explain that to friends and colleagues!
Last edited by Redlines_Daily; 01-29-2012 at 03:46 PM.
No, I sold it. At the time it seemed like the smart thing to do..the market was strong and it was easy money. I still think this is a viable strategy for new buyers trying to work their way up to a better home, my issue is when extremely rich people engage in this type of investing..like the previous poster mentioned "the game"...some people see the world as a game and just want to make as much money as the can even if they dont need it. Once we stop looking at this world as a game, we can start building a future for all the people instead of a fortunate few.
You know, I really don't mean to critisize the rich and I certainly don't single out the Chinese...I just try to spread my view of the world, and hope that once people have built a comfortable life for themselves they can think of helping others instead of just amassing more wealth.
I never actually told you I was going to flip anything. In fact, if and when I do choose to live in Vancouver again, I will be living there. It was a personal investment for my own future. Hope that clears things up.
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Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by xclone2002
I didn't say that anyone was lazy or that they don't work hard.
But I'm a realist. In one of your first posts here, you say that you're going to China in the coming months to volunteer program. You have my complete respect. However, at the end of it what's going to change? You're going to go back to Canada and share your horror stories with everyone you know when the reality is you've only touched the tip of the ice berg.
Yes, the problem IS the game, but either play it or be left behind. It would be nice if we could all wake up tomorrow and have the world's problems disappear, but is that going to happen?
Human beings are evil and greedy. They naturally want more out of life. From your perspective, you have everything that someone coming out of a first world nation can have. Volunteering for a few weeks might give you a bit of pride and make you feel that you're doing something for the world. But what's going to change?
Maybe instead of coming out here and trying to solve problems out of your reach, you can start by helping the homeless in Vancouver. Socialism doesn't work and doesn't do good for the society. How many times have you heard stories of the bums on East Hastings begging for money for food? And when you actually buy them a sandwich, they'll just go and throw it away?
Completely understand your perspective! I just don't agree with it! . I am hopeful that if enough people change their way of thinking that bigger change will happen in generations to come
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by xclone2002
I never actually told you I was going to flip anything. In fact, if and when I do choose to live in Vancouver again, I will be living there. It was a personal investment for my own future. Hope that clears things up.
Absolutely, and a smart choice too if you plan on living there again. Sorry, I was referring to speculation-investing in general, not specifically to you!
I'm sick and tired of seeing these mother fuckers coming here and buying up everything. It's disappointing to see many people that were born and raised here having to move away because they can't afford to live here in this city.
Didn't know you planning to get a 5 million dollar house!
I’ve seen multiple posts claiming 'corruption' this, 'corruption' that. Yes, corruption does exist. But it’s heavily penalized, usually by death if caught.
too bad you could pay your way out of death by giving the prosecutor a good amount
Condos aren't the main thing we're looking at. We're talking about detached family homes. For houses, it's not a bubble. The middle and upper class of China is only going to grow more. According to Immigration Canada, as of August 2011, there was a backlog of 300,000 Mainland China immigrants applying to BC specifically using the business class/investor visa, which now requires them to bring in $1.6M CAD in liquid cash. Based on what I hear from my realtor friends in Vancouver and now even London (they're buying up there and Sydney, Aus too), the vast majority have FAR, FAR more than $1.6M in liquid cash.
We're talking about people who land at YVR, and buy a $3M house in liquid cash the next day.
London house prices are down.
Sydney house prices are down.
Vancouver house prices are down.
Sales are down in all 3 cities.
~200K new immigrants call Canada home every year, with 60% being Asian, and only 16% calling BC home. 60% of 16% is ~10% of 200K or 20K people. Average 3 per family, that's ~6K families buying homes.
~100K properties are sold in BC in an average year. That amounts to 6% of the BC market.
Investor class immigration is capped:
Quote:
The Federal Immigrant Investor Program is now closed as 700 complete applications have been received at the Centralized Intake Office. This new annual cap was introduced through ministerial instructions, which came into force on July 1, 2011.
In my mind, there is nothing wrong with flipping houses. The problem is, in Vancouver, the term flipping got co-opted by people buying pre-sales and flipping them when the condo was built.
Why people were buying them at a 10-20% or more premium when the were built, I have no idea. Some people just like to touch and feel before they buy.
Flipping in the traditional sense of buying a "shitty" house and renovating it and re-selling is a benefit to the housing stock. It improves the neighborhood both aesthetically and through property value and people "can" make money in the process. The problem is, even the shitty houses now are 600k. The house has less to do with purchase price..its land.
At one point, I was going to be the renovation end of a house flipping organization. We were looking at houses all over the city. Finally, they decided instead of buying and renovating they decided to buy and re-build. They had bought one property and sold it for a profit, and I don't even think they got to the point of pulling permits. They marketed it differently. Fuck the house, here's what you can build on this size lot in this location. Use this guy, and sign me a check. The original owners could have done the same thing, but didn't. They tried to put lipstick on a pig and sell the original home.
Is that right or wrong? I have no ethical problem with that.
He finally got to the point of telling his real estate agent that he wanted properties in this price range, either priced low for the area or on the market for 30+ days, just go in and make an offer. Tell them cash sale, so guaranteed financing, whatever closing date they want and no inspection. Don't even clean the thing.
The people have a choice. I take a guaranteed offer thats a bit low, or dick around with someone that is going to pick the place apart with a home inspector and take a chance for an extra 20g.
If you are in a position where you can write the check and take the risk, then the rewards are yours.
A lot of people would have a huge issue with buying a house practically sight unseen.
I still think this is a viable strategy for new buyers trying to work their way up to a better home, my issue is when extremely rich people engage in this type of investing..like the previous poster mentioned "the game"...some people see the world as a game and just want to make as much money as the can even if they dont need it. Once we stop looking at this world as a game, we can start building a future for all the people instead of a fortunate few.
As I said before, I have no clue why anyone with money would buy a condo only to get little more than inflation over the past 2 years. Wealthy buyers should be smarter than the average joe.
The real problem is wealthy buyers can afford to take the loss and afford to move they investments elsewhere when the market turns - while locals are stuck and cannot afford the loss.
Outside of the lower mainland prices are down, in the interior quite a bit. I think the time for new buyers has passed, they should sit it out and see what happens. if they sat out the last 2 years in the lower mainland they missed out on minimal gains, yet if they sat out elsewhere in BC, especially the interior they are up, as anyone who got in recently has lost money.
I'm actually OK with the "game" yet that's cause I'm OK with the outcome. Any game has winners and losers. The problem is the average joe tries to get into the "game" thinking they cannot possibly lose. Capitalism is has its ups and downs. Everyone loves the ups, yet the downs wipe the average Joe out while the wealthy can buy back in at new lows and make money on the up and down.
If I hadn't flipped it, someone else who really wanted to live there could have bought it for the pre-construction price. So what happened? They still got their condo, but they had to pay a significantly higher price..possibly eating into their savings/retirement fund. I didn't offer any service to the public, all I did was create more burden in someone elses life, simply so I could make a profit.
I won't be doing that type of investing anymore. I have enough money to live a great life (most of us do, we just have an appetite for material objects), so I make sure all of my future investments at least offer a service or help others in addition to making me profit.
Faith in humanity restored!
Well put, I couldn't agree with you more. The majority of the benefit goes to the parties involved and less is contributed social welfare. By that I mean the well-being, health and prosperity of a person or community.
On a related note, I thought this was a pretty eye-opening article.
Quote:
Cage dogs of Hong Kong: The tragedy of tens of thousands living in 6ft by 2ft rabbit hutches - in a city with more Louis Vuitton shops than Paris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xclone2002
I’ve seen multiple posts claiming 'corruption' this, 'corruption' that. Yes, corruption does exist. But it’s heavily penalized, usually by death if caught. 5 million Canadian dollars is by no means a small sum. With a banking system MUCH more monitored than Canada’s, no one can funnel that kind of money nowadays.
lol.... yes there's a death penalty if you're not paying off all the right people and there's a risk that you might piss off the wrong guy or need to be made an example of (something that your payment doesn't cover) that's why they try to get their money and families out
and no... you can get money out, theres always a way around everything but this is also why there's a market for launderers/smugglers to help these people get their cash out to canada/usa/europe
Quote:
There's a way of doing business in China called 'guanxi' and it's NOT corruption. Ever hear of networking? The relationship building skills they teach you in business school? ‘Guanxi’ is networking on not only a business level, but a personal one as well. Once you know the right people and have the brains and balls, there’s a lot more money to be made in China than in any western country.
guanxi is becoming less and less useful as compared to how it was but that subject is quite different from the corruption
to say guanxi makes you money, is fine but guanxi also helps out corruption
not to say there aren't "legitimate" (everyone bends the rules) multi millionaires it'd be stupid to assume there isn't
I read that those WenZhou guy's came and bought nothing.
I'm a realtor myself and I deal with Chinese immigrants.
I'm fairly new to the game but I notice my clients don't throw their money at any house they see. I still write a load of offers and counter/recounter until everyone is happy at a fair price.
There are so many factors on how home prices are driven up.
Home sellers ultimately set the price on how much they want to sell their homes for.
I lost a listing because the comparative market analysis I presented was low. Another realtor who wanted to list the house for a crazy amount got the listing.
It also doesn't help when BC Assessment assessed homes really high for 2012. Sellers just think their homes are worth even more.
The market is slowing down and house prices are dropping slightly. There is currently too much supply and not enough demand.
I read that those WenZhou guy's came and bought nothing.
I'm a realtor myself and I deal with Chinese immigrants.
I'm fairly new to the game but I notice my clients don't throw their money at any house they see. I still write a load of offers and counter/recounter until everyone is happy at a fair price.
There are so many factors on how home prices are driven up.
Home sellers ultimately set the price on how much they want to sell their homes for.
I lost a listing because the comparative market analysis I presented was low. Another realtor who wanted to list the house for a crazy amount got the listing.
It also doesn't help when BC Assessment assessed homes really high for 2012. Sellers just think their homes are worth even more.
The market is slowing down and house prices are dropping slightly. There is currently too much supply and not enough demand.
Oh man, realtors are a breed upon themselves. I could totally represent buyers, I think it would be fun and interesting. Sellers on the other hand? I just don't think you can do it without losing just that little part of your soul.
When my family bought the house in Abbotsford, we met up with a realtor that we then started working with for representing us. He was amazing. We'd go into a place and just stand there. In the good way, like a waiter at a fancy restaurant. If you had a question, he'd launch into action. Someone made a comment about what the size of the backyard was at a place. Next thing, you look out the window and he's measuring it.
We found him really great, but I can imagine a lot of others wouldn't. I don't need one of those douchy realtors that walk you through the place, "oh look how cozy this living room is!" Oh, you mean, look how small this thing is?
Then what is there left to trade that benefits others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlines_Daily
EDIT- by the way, this is the same reason why I don't buy futures contracts or commodities. . I'm having an even more difficult time trying to explain that to friends and colleagues!
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. I'm having an even more difficult time trying to explain that to friends and colleagues! 
