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Old 02-16-2012, 01:33 PM   #1
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BC's Huge Gamble - Enbridge Northern Gateway Pipeline controversy


Thought I'd share with everyone that wants to protect the BC coast, Great Bear Rainforest, and our way of life, etc.

Enbridge Inc, with their horrible spill record, wants to build a pipeline from Alberta thru the heart of BC and run tankers up and down our rocky coasts.

I searched to make sure it's not a repost..
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:36 PM   #2
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Pipelines with shutoffs are much safer than any other transportation method. Once it gets put onto the tanker however....
So what if it's under the sand? Where do you think oil nauturally is stored? In the air?

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Old 02-16-2012, 02:36 PM   #3
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:24 PM   #4
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:34 AM   #5
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Hopefully it gets stopped. Alberta and China benefits the most!
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:41 AM   #6
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Irreparably scar our stunning natural landscapes in exchange for a few decades of income, makes sense.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:16 AM   #7
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Oh hell no, this just made me steaming mad. Going to google and see what I can do about this. Sign/protest and going to email my Current MLA about this.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:18 PM   #8
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Oh hell no, this just made me steaming mad. Going to google and see what I can do about this. Sign/protest and going to email my Current MLA about this.
Yeah it made me steaming mad to see these tree-huggers making a biased video full of scare tactics and in-correct information to promote their agenda.

I have no problems whatsoever with them building a pipeline and allowing tankers.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:48 PM   #9
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Irreparably scar our stunning natural landscapes in exchange for a few decades of income, makes sense.
Did the Trans Mountain pipeline "Irreparably scar our stunning natural landscapes"?
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:51 PM   #10
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I dont mind the pipeline. What I do mind is the limit on liability in the event of an oil tanker spilling oil into the shores. That area has pretty narrow passages and if something happens, it will be the government and Tax payers that have to clean up the mess.
You think corporations will actually do the ethical thing here?

I say let the pipeline go through only if corporations will be FULLY liable if a spill happens, and also criminal prosecution is also on the table for major fuckups.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:02 PM   #11
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With all due respect OP.. you're a moron, and a typical moron at that.

This Gateway and the Keystone have been demonized by the media.. if you were that concerned about the pipeline you should have been fighting to keep the Port at Kitimat from coming to fruition.

Newsflash, there is already a mess of pipeline infrastructure in North America:



Two new pipelines is not very significant when you consider the existing infrastructure, and that many of these existing lines are much older and were constructed with poor quality control, lower grade materials (Perhaps good at the time.. 50 years ago), and "backwoods" engineering.

Enbridge's "Horrible" spill record? Can you please elaborate? Why don't you total the number of barrels that have been spilled then compare it to the number of barrels that have been transported by Enbridge.. and then come back and tell us just how horrible of a figure you get.

Pipelines are THE SAFEST and most ENVIROMENTALLY FRIENDLY way to transport oil/gas/etc. If they don't build these pipelines they will ship it via tanker ship, transport trailer, train tankers, etc... all methods are almost certainly going to result in a higher instance of spills and accidents. For example, with train transportation in 2010 there were 4 main-track train collisions and 80 main-track train derailments in Canada. Nevermind using all of these alternative shipping methods consumes far more energy in the long term than the construction of a pipeline would.

The actual construction of the pipeline is IMO very non-invasive to the environment, obviously far less so than a massive increase in land/water traffic to transport the oil.

Having said all that, I would prefer they built a refinery in Canada to create more long term jobs, and then ship the refined products south....

Now back to slamming you for being a shortsighted hippy, if you don't want them to build pipelines or develop the Canadian oil sands, (Can't have one and not the other) that's totally fine. But, you had better be ready to do your part, live in a cave or hut made from plants, don't drive a car, don't buy a car, don't use mass transit, don't buy anything plastic or otherwise derived from hydrocarbons (Which is basically everything) etc.

Disclaimer: I hold a management position with a pipeline company lol. My resume includles the new build portion (370km) of the original Keystone Pipeline. If you really want to talk about the pros and cons of the gateway, let's have an intelligent conversation where your uneducated environmentalist mentality don't get in the way of reality.

EDIT: Oh and Oil from the tar-sands is causing seizures? They live in a trailer park... if anything is giving them seizures it's probably the asbestos in the walls of their trailer.. oh but they probably already sue'd the trailer company and lost.

EDIT# 2: Mr. Seizure also had his brake lines cut by the evil oil companies...
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #12
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Did the Trans Mountain pipeline "Irreparably scar our stunning natural landscapes"?
No, not significantly; the impact of constructing a pipe line is no greater than that of a hydro electric line.

My opposition is specifically grounded in the risk involved with a spill, either along the pipeline or from a tanker. I realize, pipelines are statistically the safest method of transporting oil and gas, as Jason has pointed out. Furthermore, even if a spill were to occur, while it would be significantly and irreparably damaging to the contaminated area, it could be quickly contained. The small area contaminated would take decades or more to recover, but it would be a small area, therefore it is an acceptable risk. I don't like it, but I pick my battles.

A tanker spill is where my issues begin, that could not be quickly contained into a small area and it would contaminate a significant stretch of coast line. The risk is not worth the reward, period.

I may be a hippy, but I'm not short sighted. I realize that my laptop is made out of plastic and I drove my car this morning; I try to minimize the amount of hydrocarbons I consume, but it is impossible to eliminate them entirely without living in a log cabin surrounded by wilderness. Oil and gas development is for now, unfortunately necessary. That however, does not mean I will support development into every region.

I would MUCH rather see refineries built in Alberta. Reduce the carbon foot-print associated with transporting the raw and refined materials, establish long term jobs, the benefits are endless. Refineries are discussed quite often on Lang & O'Leary (I really like that show), they are not very profitable in part as a result of the environmental regulations they must conform too. So, farmers are subsidized, give a small subsidy to a company willing to build a refinery. The increased tax revenue would displace the actual cost of the subsidy anyway.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:26 PM   #13
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I do agree that Kitimats location and geographic features increase the possibility of a tanker accident and the complexity of a clean up in the event of a spill.

I would be happy to see them re-route and construct a new port/terminal dedicated to the pipeline at a location which takes the above concerns into consideration.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:27 PM   #14
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what's the current % of the resources currently transported from Alberta to Asia via pipeline?

from jasonturbo's map there's only two running across BC...are the majority still through trailers/trains?

Or is my question really moot since most of the resources are going Stateside?
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:36 PM   #15
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None of the Oil is going to Asia, the existing Kinder-Morgan transports oil to the Chevron Refinery in Burnaby. (If I'm not mistaken)
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:13 PM   #16
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None of the Oil is going to Asia, the existing Kinder-Morgan transports oil to the Chevron Refinery in Burnaby. (If I'm not mistaken)
It's a switching station, routes to Petrocan refinery as well.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:28 PM   #17
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Agreed with everything Jasonturbo said.

The migraines / seizures actually can be caused by LONG term asbestos exposure, that combined with more than likely the black mold in their roofs and walls, and booze / drugs use it seems plausible. Their buildings defenatly look like they were built around the time asbestos was booming. Doubtful its from the oil.. I worked at chevron refinery for half a year (7 days a week 10 hrs a day for 3 of those months) and it reaked of raw crude & other chemicals all day, working on pipes, never even got a headache lol.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:30 PM   #18
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None of the Oil is going to Asia, the existing Kinder-Morgan transports oil to the Chevron Refinery in Burnaby. (If I'm not mistaken)
Burnaby, as well as Washington State.

There was a spill at the pipeline terminal in Sumas a couple weeks ago, it was not managed well by Kinder-Morgan. The number of people who live in close proximity to the facility reporting illness as a result is to high to be discounted.

http://www.kindermorgan.com/business...KMinCanada.pdf
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:34 PM   #19
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None of the Oil is going to Asia, the existing Kinder-Morgan transports oil to the Chevron Refinery in Burnaby. (If I'm not mistaken)
Burnaby's Chevron refinery in peril?


Looks like Chevron Refinery could soon become mostly a Tank farm, like Petro Can..
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:49 PM   #20
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I work at the Suncor Energy mine, where they extract the oil. Bitumin smells, and the chemicals as well. I have never had a migraine, or a seizure, and I have been working around it for over a year. I get oil and diesel on me every day at work. Im healthy. Weird. Guess Im just super human.
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:07 PM   #21
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Burnaby, as well as Washington State.

There was a spill at the pipeline terminal in Sumas a couple weeks ago, it was not managed well by Kinder-Morgan. The number of people who live in close proximity to the facility reporting illness as a result is to high to be discounted.

http://www.kindermorgan.com/business...KMinCanada.pdf
"A couple weeks ago... reporting illness" Were these people drinking the oil???

Do these people also get sick when they pour oil in their engine or pump gas gas in their cars? lol

It also says that the containment berm of the facility contained the leak?

Oil spill contained on Sumas Mtn.

People bitcing about the fumes from a small leak at a terminal... I can assure you it's nothing compared to the smell of living near a refinery... something I did for most of my life, and many others from Ft. Saskatchewan, Edmonton, Sherwood Park, etc.

Though I will say my Mom always thought the refinery aggrevated her Asthma when the wind blew just right...
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:47 PM   #22
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"A couple weeks ago... reporting illness" Were these people drinking the oil???

Do these people also get sick when they pour oil in their engine or pump gas gas in their cars? lol

It also says that the containment berm of the facility contained the leak?

Oil spill contained on Sumas Mtn.

People bitcing about the fumes from a small leak at a terminal... I can assure you it's nothing compared to the smell of living near a refinery... something I did for most of my life, and many others from Ft. Saskatchewan, Edmonton, Sherwood Park, etc.

Though I will say my Mom always thought the refinery aggrevated her Asthma when the wind blew just right...
Auguston is very close to the Kinder-Morgan Sumas Facility, a 2 minute drive perhaps.

I realize that you, iceman and many others have spent your adult lives working around refineries, but the entire community reporting the same symptoms on the day of the spill is noteworthy. It could be dismissed as mass hysteria, but I don't believe that was the case. I'm certainly no expert, so I can't draw any conclusions short of the empirical evidence.

It wasn't just soccer moms complaining, who are a bit paranoid by nature.

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However, residents did not accept that answer, saying they did get sick, with complaints of headaches, nausea, breathing problems and even chest pain. Numerous health-related questions were put to the panel.

Speakers also took exception to the term "nuisance odours" that Kinder Morgan used to describe the issue on the day of the spill.

"If I'm sick and my wife is sick and other residents are sick, then there are health concerns," said Martin Sunderland, an Auguston resident and inspector with Abbotsford Fire Rescue Service. "This is more than an inconvenience. An inconvenience in Auguston is when raccoons get in my garbage. This is more than that."
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Auguston resident Tiffany Kafka said she is familiar with the effects of air pollution, having spent time in Mexico City and other places with bad air, but never experienced symptoms like she did on the day of the spill.

"I had a headache and I was nauseated," she said. "I've lived in polluted areas, and haven't had that before."
The topography of Auguston and Sumas is interesting as well, worth mentioning. It's a very steep series of mountains, the Kinder-Morgan facility is a slightly higher elevation than Auguston and buffered on two/three sides by higher mountains. Slightly down hill from Kinder-Morgan, Auguston has a peak rising up sharply behind it. It's possible that the fumes would settle and be trapped in the Auguston area.

Kinder-Morgan contained the leak, then proceeded to meet with the public, but they've been very dismissive regarding the health concerns. There was a not insignificant spill in direct proximity to a populated area, but Kinder-Morgan largely dismissed it, how would they react to a spill in the middle of no where?

Like I said, my opposition is primarily to routing tanker traffic through the Kitimat location. I accept that pipelines are necessary, but it would be nice to see it go through a less pristine and sensitive area or be refined within Alberta, because my faith in oil companies is not all that high with recent incidents like this on my mind.

http://www.abbynews.com/news/139269138.html
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:12 PM   #23
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:13 PM   #24
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Kinder-Morgan contained the leak, then proceeded to meet with the public, but they've been very dismissive regarding the health concerns.
Abbotsford News - Kinder Morgan answers questions about Sumas Mountain oil spill

This article IMO is not being presented in an impartial fashion, perhaps they should conduct a survey of residents in the area which asks them if they suffered any adverse health conditions as a result of the spill, and what those symptoms were.. actually provide some sort of basic statistics.

The article gives me the impression that the a large number of people fell ill, I can only speculate on the local affected population (Guessing over 1000 people/day-minimum were exposed to the vapors), but when 50 people show up to the meeting, many of which are likely their in support of others who "fell ill" it doesn't provide any credibility to the claims IMO.

If there was really serious health problems associated with the vapors, it shouldn't have been very hard to connect the dots. Did any of these people get admitted to the hospital? I couldn't find a single article which documents someone visiting a doctor with regards to the spill.

From a biological perspective, humans are 99.9% identical, if the vapors make one person sick, it should make 99.9% of everyone else sick. If they breathed in chloroform, they would all be sleeping (or dead), if they breathed in H2S, they would all be sleeping (or dead), if they breathed in xxxxx gas, they would all share xxxxx symptom. (Being realistic, if they have a previously existing condition, it's possible the smaller concentrations of xxxxx gas may affect some people more severely than others)

Just my .02

Don't buy into the media BS, just a few years back the original Keystone was built with barely a "wimper" in the media, now only 4 years later and pipelines are the big story that get all the reads and comments, and thats what media outlets care about.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:28 PM   #25
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A co worker of mine lives in Auguston area. Dude rarely misses work. He was home ill and couldn't figure out why. He found out about the incident later that day.

BTW, jasonturbo, there's no need to be a dickhead toward the OP.

With all due respect........... yeah, right.

With all due respect, you are an asshole! a typical one at that...... but you knew that already.
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