Monty Robinson Guilty

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Originally Posted by Eff-1

Thank goodness. Can't believe this guy thought he could get away with that.

B.C. Mountie found guilty in deadly crash - British Columbia - CBC News

He did get away. He rather be found guilty for obstruction of justice than get charged and convicted for manslaughter or criminal negligence.

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Originally Posted by MisterMu

By the same logic, children of Chinese railroad workers who had their parents blown up should be able to get lighter sentences for murder and manslaughter.

This is not comparable.

[spyker]

Originally Posted by Porschedog

Isn't that good then. It would send a message to other cops that they won't hesitate to throw them in prison if they go against the law.

As much as I would like to see cops go to jail for their crimes committed,it's a very bad idea and the courts know this.

The only option for a cop when he/she goes to jail is the hole,it's where they will be doing their time.You can't put them in general population cause they will be deadmeat,can't put them in PC cause the goofs,rats and skinners will want to kill them too.

You need to remember that cops are people too,locking them up in a room alone 23 hours a day for 3-6 months will drive any sane human crazy.

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^I don't know if they do this, but maybe they can move them to a prison on the other side of the country where people are less likely to know who they are.

Btw, jail is for people awaiting trial or for short durations while prison is longer term and for people who are convicted. There's also a distinction between provincial run (2 years less a day) and federal (2 years+).

[quasi]

Originally Posted by spyker

As much as I would like to see cops go to jail for their crimes committed,it's a very bad idea and the courts know this.

The only option for a cop when he/she goes to jail is the hole,it's where they will be doing their time.You can't put them in general population cause they will be deadmeat,can't put them in PC cause the goofs,rats and skinners will want to kill them too.

You need to remember that cops are people too,locking them up in a room alone 23 hours a day for 3-6 months will drive any sane human crazy.

To be fair cops shouldn't be doing things that are going to put them in jail, they are suppose to be better then your average citizen especially when it comes to obeying the laws. If they do break the laws just like anybody else they have to live with the consequences. It's not any different then some gang member that has enemies in jail really, you make your bed sleep in it. It's a pretty messed up Country if cops can walk around with impunity good or bad. Like my daddy always told me if you can't do the time don't do the crime.

[dvst8]

What a failed justice system.

[minoru_tanaka]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Please, educate yourself before giving opinions like the one you've given; the harsh conditions faced by Chinese railroad workers does not even remotely compare to the governments policies against Aboriginal people. Also, Monty Robinson was found guilty of obstruction of justice and given a lighter sentence, not murder or manslaughter.

Chinese railroad workers were not just abused by whites but also First Nations people. Doesn't give me the right as a descendant of someone abused to abuse the descendant of someone who might have abused someone who was the same race as me.

Nor should I be given leniency for committing a crime due it. If anything people should just be offered more help not more leeway

[Iceman_2K]

Guy got the easy way out.....pathetic...

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by minoru_tanaka

Chinese railroad workers were not just abused by whites but also First Nations people. Doesn't give me the right as a descendant of someone abused to abuse the descendant of someone who might have abused someone who was the same race as me.

Nor should I be given leniency for committing a crime due it. If anything people should just be offered more help not more leeway

No, no, no, you really do not understand the subject and should educate yourself to gain a real base of knowledge before commenting.

Leniency is not given because the descendants of First Nations people should be entitled to abuse the descendants of the abusers, not even close. No person or community has any right to abuse or take advantage of another community, regardless of mediating factors. Leniency is granted as a reflection of the fact that the current state of First Nations society fosters addiction and in turn crime, and incarceration and other traditionally European methods of retributive justice that consider solely the offender will not aid in healing the society as whole. Quite the opposite, incarcerating members of the First Nations community who came to their circumstances as a result of the environment they were raised in will perpetuate the issues. Now, the inevitable rebuttal is that First Nations people should not be given special consideration. First Nations people are given special consideration however, because as a society they did not naturally develop the issues that exist today. The issues within First Nations society came about as a direct result of centuries of racist government policies against them across North America, and especially in Canada. Those racist policies only truly were exterminated less than two decades ago and the individual nations are diligently working at rebuilding. The help of the government recognizes the damage it did in prior centuries and its need to make reparations by aiding the first nations community in rebuilding.

Now, the really important bit.

Chinese railroad workers compared to the entire First Nations community.

About 15,700 Chinese worked on the railroad. Those workers who wished to work for the railroad were not enslaved, they took the job by choice, were remunerated for services, and many left and found other work. The injustices were that Chinese workers were paid about thirty percent less than other races, were required to purchase equipment others races were provided with, and were not given equal access to hospital services in comparison to other races. It's also frequently mentioned that Chinese workers were not prepared for the harsh Canadian winters, but that's a fact common to all frontier and pioneering people that immigrated to Canada.

Did racially motivated injustices take place?
No doubt, but objectively they were not all that heinous, widespread, or long lasting.

In comparison, the treatment of First Nations people stands as the most shameful series of actions in Canadian history. I'll provide a few points on Residential Schools to demonstrate why you cannot compare racism against Chinese railroad workers to that against First Nations people.

-Residential Schools open in the mid-1850's and the last closed in 1996.
- Residential Schools began as a method of assimilating First Nations people into European society with the unspoken long term goal of breaking up the community to free up land for development.
- Residential Schools had the goal of stripping First Nations children of their culture in every way. Religion, language, stories, tradition, subsistence lifestyle, connection to ancestral lands, and convert them into Christians totally disconnected from and ashamed of their heritage.
- Residential Schools were essentially mandatory; it was the only option for government education of FN children, and if parents did not agree to send children away they would lose government benefits and food rations, which were essential due the European impact on the land that was previously the base of subsistence living.
- First Nations children endured routine sexual, physical and emotional abuse, deprivation and loneliness in Residential Schools.
- Children were moved to Residential Schools hundreds of kilometers from their families, whom they only spent two months a year with.

There's just a few brief points, maybe now you and the others will understand why the mistreatment of Chinese on a single construction project cannot and should not be compared to that of First Nations people in Canada.

[minoru_tanaka]

^Aware of all that. But you can't just have lower expectations for First Nations people.

If you let people get away with things, well guess what, they will do it.

You can look at the chinese, you can look at the Jews. Jew's had been living suppressed for thousands of years and received know leniency. They were expected to be more clever. So look at the US where they are the wealthiest group despite a lot of people still being predjudice against them.

[Shades]

^
Were the Jewish children sexually abused because Native children definitely were.

[minoru_tanaka]

^No every christian and muslim gave then candy and sung them lullabies.

Tell a kid that they're smart and they'll try to act smart. They read more, they'll do math questions and solve puzzles. Tell a kid he's stupid and he'll grow up tihnking he's incapable.

Tell a first nations person that because their parents and grandparents were abused so they'll unlikely be able to follow the law? Well guess what's going to happen.

Better to tell them that they come from a great people who weren't able to fight off the europeans(everyone loses someday) and were forced to suffer thru hard times but that can and will overcome.

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I should add, section 718.2(e) is not a 'get out of free jail card', it is only a guiding principle that requires Courts take into account circumstances facing Aboriginals and taking into account all reasonable alternatives to incarceration.

I mean, if they were letting everyone go, how are Aboriginals still over-represented at every stage of the criminal justice process and in the prison populations?

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Originally Posted by minoru_tanaka

You can look at the chinese, you can look at the Jews. Jew's had been living suppressed for thousands of years and received know leniency. They were expected to be more clever. So look at the US where they are the wealthiest group despite a lot of people still being predjudice against them.

The big difference between these groups for me is that this is Aboriginal land that was taken away by Europeans and the government sponsored the systematic dismantling of their culture, which they are still suffering heavily as a result. Whereas the Chinese and Jews had a choice to come here and they are not suffering to the extent of Aboriginals who are facing high levels of poverty and addiction.

[minoru_tanaka]

Originally Posted by bing

The big difference between these groups for me is that this is Aboriginal land that was taken away by Europeans and the government sponsored the systematic dismantling of their culture, which they are still suffering heavily as a result. Whereas the Chinese and Jews had a choice to come here and they are not suffering to the extent of Aboriginals who are facing high levels of poverty and addiction.

Disregard what happened there, it was horrible. Stop reminding them they were treated as savages. Tell them they will be treated like scum for acting like scum.

Only aboriginal guy I grew up with, he wasn't called chug on a daily basis. His friends called him that as friends give each other a hard time. We gave him a hard time for not going to university cause it was free for him but only because it was free. Nobody said he was native so he was less capable. He was treated like any other asian who didn't make it. He was ribbed for not fulfilling his potential like any other of us. He's got a decent job, he's not rich and he's not poor, makes a living like the rest of his friends. He wasnt given a free pass to be a fuck up and he didn't. I know small sample but he doesn't say I'm going to go back to the reserve and wait to get land and money. He does say tho that if they give it to him he will take it just like any shrewd chinaman he grew up with who treated him like another shrewd chinaman. And his brother hung out with greeks and italians, also does just fine. Don't know too much about him

Im just saying it's expectations. Well they wont work for everyone but that's the same for everyone else

[dvst8]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Well said.

Special considerations is given to aboriginal people at the time of sentencing for very good reason. Unfortunately, most people are so resentful that aboriginal people receive benefits beyond those of the ordinary Canadian, it's difficult to educate the reasons behind special considerations at sentencing.

Good reason? When is it Ok for someone to get away with murder? The past has nothing to do with this case. Nothing. Monty's getting a free ride off this outdated aboriginal law. This sets a bad example future cases involving aboriginals. We don't need to be educated about the special considerations. Its common sense that when person A kills person B they should be punished. Even Monkeys know that. Its foolish laws that fuck up cases like these.

Last time I checked it was 2012. Everyone is born on this earth equally. Its nobodies land.

[MindBomber]

^Again, aboriginal status is not a factor in whether a person is charged or found guilty. It is only considered at the time of sentencing.

That fact has been repeated throughout this thread.

[dvst8]

^ uh yea...no need to repeat.
What I am trying to say is it shouldn't be used at any point. This is just a 'Get out of jail because I am Native' card. With all do respects to Aboriginals, we don't care what the past has to do with this case. The law should make the playing fields equal and have a race card for everyone else. Every nationality has faced hardship. Not just the Natives.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by dvst8

^ uh yea...no need to repeat.
What I am trying to say is it shouldn't be used at any point. This is just a 'Get out of jail because I am Native' card. With all do respects to Aboriginals, we don't care what the past has to do with this case. The law should make the playing fields equal and have a race card for everyone else. Every nationality has faced hardship. Not just the Natives.

Okay, the way you phrased your sentence, it sounded as if you were under the misconception that Robinson's Aboriginal status played a role in the charges.

Every race has faced hardship at some point in history if you go back far enough; however, the systematic racism that occurred in Canada was very unique, and far more damaging in many respects, compared to most other cases. That systematic racism has lead to the current state of aboriginal society in Canada, which is quite low. As a country, Canada now wants to undo the damage it did, and not simply apologize and move on. Success, failure, addiction, crime, is heavily passed on from one generation to the next. Section 718.2(e) seeks to help break the current cycle by not simply incarcerating a criminal, but to seek a way to better help reform the person being sentenced (which should be done in every sentencing decision regardless of race, imo). Section 718.2(e) being referred to as a 'get out of jail free card' is a bit of a misnomer in truth, because it doesn't prevent Aboriginal people from seeing jail time, only mandates judges to consider whether it is the best possible approach.

It's not perfect way of handling this issue, but it's not a perfect system. Even I have hesitations in the exact approach taken by Section 718.2(e), because a more narrow definition of what should be considered as alternatives to prison would greatly improve effectiveness. Still, my over riding thought is that a mostly good approach is better than none at all, because the problems will be prolonged much longer without intervention (on every level, government, nations, bands, individual reserves).