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Old 04-11-2012, 03:21 PM   #51
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I barely skimmed the article, then emailed the author:

"Dear Allen,

You, my friend, are naive and live in a well.

Please come out of your hole, and do some research and how badly Hong Kong got screwed by mainland Chinese in recent years.

Housing pricing raised.
extreme inflation.
Need for hospital bed space for birth mothers DOUBLED.

Vancouver is following Hong Kong, with probably a 5 year lag, and to a smaller degree (we are farther). If we don't do something now, things will keep going down hill. You can practically see the future by looking at HK."
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:29 PM   #52
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Honestly, what can we do, while keeping our values?

1.Limiting house ownership to locals will just get struck down at Supreme court... Not to mention, we will be the only one in North America doing that.
2.The politicians all court the immigrant votes, they won't dare to increase / decrease immigration... besides it is not their fault that immigrants like Vancouver and move their after they "pay their dues"
3.Ditto for foreign asset disclosure similar to the US.
4.Vancouver is river delta, to keep our environmental creed, we can't get more land like they do in HK / Asia.

What we can do as individuals is to increase our own worth to society, earn more etc; or just GTFO.

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Vancouver is following Hong Kong, with probably a 5 year lag, and to a smaller degree (we are farther). If we don't do something now, things will keep going down hill. You can practically see the future by looking at HK."

Last edited by godwin; 04-11-2012 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:31 PM   #53
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The inflation / housing problem has large part to do with macroeconomic factors ie HK's insistence to be tied to USD. It is actually a golden opportunity for Vancouverites to sell their place and go to HK. Since CAD is high and housing market in YVR is high.. if one is in purely for ROI, HK provides a better ROI than in Vancouver over a short term.

More hospital beds means more doctors are needed, hospital get renovated etc. Just a decade ago, there are so many out of work doctors in HK that they had to became drug company sales reps.

In the end, demographically HK is aging really rapidly.. who else are going to do all the dirty / maid work for the area?

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Housing pricing raised.
extreme inflation.
Need for hospital bed space for birth mothers DOUBLED.

Last edited by godwin; 04-11-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:37 PM   #54
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Don't forget they have a lot longer to save up. Even 20 years ago, capitalism is a relatively new thing. 20 years at about say 6-8% interest adds up to quite a bit.

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I am curious to know why you think westerners have a love affair with living within their means? To me, I don't necessarily agree because the fact of the matter is Canadians have a lot of debt outstanding (trillion+ in credit card debt alone) so I think this suggests that we live more for today than tomorrow. Look at the US debt problem since most of their debt is owned by China. It was stated that one key difference was that Chinese families were able to save as much as 50% of their household income while the American saving rate was a meager single digit percentage in comparison.
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:53 PM   #55
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one family one house is what they are doing in China right now. Members in a household cannot own more than one property (if husband owns one already, then the wife can't buy another one for investment or rent it out). The housing policy there is harsh and price fuctuated a lot in these year causing the Mainlanders to move to NA or other parts of the world where their money is safe.

50% saving habit is not the main reason. Would you rather live in a shit hole for your first 50 years, then buy a million dollar house once you retired or would you live comfortably for the entire life in an average $500K house.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:19 PM   #56
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Honestly, what can we do, while keeping our values?

1.Limiting house ownership to locals will just get struck down at Supreme court... Not to mention, we will be the only one in North America doing that.
2.The politicians all court the immigrant votes, they won't dare to increase / decrease immigration... besides it is not their fault that immigrants like Vancouver and move their after they "pay their dues"
3.Ditto for foreign asset disclosure similar to the US.
4.Vancouver is river delta, to keep our environmental creed, we can't get more land like they do in HK / Asia.

What we can do as individuals is to increase our own worth to society, earn more etc; or just GTFO.
In fairness,

Immigration or head tax or non-ownership restrictions won't work.

What works in my opinion is non-resident tax.

If you are a Non-Canadian Resident and purchasing for investment purposes (parking your offshore money) and plan to move your wife and kids here for the school, environment, benefits but don't actually contribute to Canada by living and working here (husband staying and working overseas) then you should be taxed heavily for your place in line in Canada.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:38 PM   #57
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That is so easily circumvented under current law. eg Lai Changxing.. his wife / daughter became Canadian citizen under 3 years.. then he transferred all his holdings to them and filed for divorce/ turn himself in.

Not to mention, you will also hurting the people who are actually here to work and Canadians need most eg people who immigrated here to be nurses, welders etc. Those people don't really care where they go as long as there is a job.

Remember Canada is not the only country that seen as a favourable place to emigrate too. Australia, NZ's housing market are the same. However in those countries housing are people's retiring plans, nearly every middle income earner has more than 1 property.

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In fairness,

Immigration or head tax or non-ownership restrictions won't work.

What works in my opinion is non-resident tax.

If you are a Non-Canadian Resident and purchasing for investment purposes (parking your offshore money) and plan to move your wife and kids here for the school, environment, benefits but don't actually contribute to Canada by living and working here (husband staying and working overseas) then you should be taxed heavily for your place in line in Canada.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:09 AM   #58
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I barely skimmed the article, then emailed the author:

"Dear Allen,

You, my friend, are naive and live in a well.

Please come out of your hole, and do some research and how badly Hong Kong got screwed by mainland Chinese in recent years.

Housing pricing raised.
extreme inflation.
Need for hospital bed space for birth mothers DOUBLED.

Vancouver is following Hong Kong, with probably a 5 year lag, and to a smaller degree (we are farther). If we don't do something now, things will keep going down hill. You can practically see the future by looking at HK."
I always hear this while in HK about people complaining about mainlanders but I find it absolutely hilarious how people complain about mainlanders raising up home priecs (which is not the full truth) and taking up hospital beds. I guess the locals don't understand that the thousands of jobs in the service and tourism industry is fueled by mainlanders wanting to buy things and tour around HK. They can't fathom the idea that the people they hate most and taking up their precious bed space are the ones giving them jobs and money.


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The inflation / housing problem has large part to do with macroeconomic factors ie HK's insistence to be tied to USD. It is actually a golden opportunity for Vancouverites to sell their place and go to HK. Since CAD is high and housing market in YVR is high.. if one is in purely for ROI, HK provides a better ROI than in Vancouver over a short term.

More hospital beds means more doctors are needed, hospital get renovated etc. Just a decade ago, there are so many out of work doctors in HK that they had to became drug company sales reps.

In the end, demographically HK is aging really rapidly.. who else are going to do all the dirty / maid work for the area?
Actually HK yield on rentals are horrible. 1-2% on newer properties and 3-4% on older properties. With the SSD and the regular stamp duty, investing in HK real estate is a bad choice compared to other parts of the world.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:51 AM   #59
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I have no issue with people who make their money fair and square, but in many cases, Mainlanders did not make their money fairly. They either embezzled their own government or ran factories which exploit their workers on a daily basis. (But, we buy stuff made from Chinese factories all of the time so we are partly responsible.) It's not like China is a hub of innovation or anything like that.

There are several countries which apply different tax regimes for offshore investors. I don't see why we don't think about implementing similar policies here. Sure the realtors will bitch a bit, but at least local governments get something out of it.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:58 AM   #60
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but in many cases, Mainlanders did not make their money fairly. They either embezzled their own government or ran factories which exploit their workers on a daily basis.
Really? What a bold statement to make. Do you have any data or proof to back up this claim of yours?
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:59 AM   #61
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^ really?, that is a bold statement because it is true most of the time. You do not get ahead in China if you know the key govt official. China and Russia are probably the two most corrupt Govts (not taking the middle east in acct).

There is no proof because the Govt control everything.

If mainlander think China is so great, move back.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:22 AM   #62
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^ really?, that is a bold statement because it is true most of the time. You do not get ahead in China if you know the key govt official. China and Russia are probably the two most corrupt Govts (not taking the middle east in acct).

There is no proof because the Govt control everything.

If mainlander think China is so great, move back.
You think things in Canada (and the western world) are different?
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:46 AM   #63
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^ really?, that is a bold statement because it is true most of the time. You do not get ahead in China if you know the key govt official. China and Russia are probably the two most corrupt Govts (not taking the middle east in acct).

There is no proof because the Govt control everything.

If mainlander think China is so great, move back.
Sorry I base my arguments on factual figures and not heresy. With a population of 1.3b, even if 0.05% of rich that's 650,000 rich people and you are telling me that you have heard that many cases of corruption?

Also lets not forget that majority of the super rich that are in private enterprise have listed companies on the HKSE or NYSE. You think their books are going to be cooked as a public traded company?

If you are going to make statements saying "in many cases" then show me those cases. I am sure if there are over 100,000 cases, you can easily find more than 100.

Also China is ranked 75th in terms of corruption perception in the world. Not that great but not as bad as you make it sound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupt...ceptions_Index
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:24 PM   #64
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You think things in Canada (and the western world) are different?
actually it is quite different.....one economy is based on democratic rights and freedoms while the other is a veiled dicactorship. Seriously?
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:27 PM   #65
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Sorry I base my arguments on factual figures and not heresy. With a population of 1.3b, even if 0.05% of rich that's 650,000 rich people and you are telling me that you have heard that many cases of corruption?

Also lets not forget that majority of the super rich that are in private enterprise have listed companies on the HKSE or NYSE. You think their books are going to be cooked as a public traded company?

If you are going to make statements saying "in many cases" then show me those cases. I am sure if there are over 100,000 cases, you can easily find more than 100.

Also China is ranked 75th in terms of corruption perception in the world. Not that great but not as bad as you make it sound: Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
dude, I guess that's why mainlanders are rushing to buy up Vancouver and moving there families here......keep telling yourself Chinese companies and mainlanders are on the up and up.......if you think China is so great, why don't you move over there...why are you here then?
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:34 PM   #66
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His location is Hong Kong. Hes already in China
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:41 PM   #67
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^ HK is not China.......
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:06 PM   #69
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^ you are clueless.......
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actually it is quite different.....one economy is based on democratic rights and freedoms while the other is a veiled dicactorship. Seriously?
BWHAHAHAHA

You keep believing that buddy. Stay poor and ignorant my friend.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:19 PM   #71
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BWHAHAHAHA

You keep believing that buddy. Stay poor and ignorant my friend.
There is no doubt that there's corruption here, but it's definitely more muted and it's not as blatant.

@RFlush: I made a bold accusation, but why would a wealthy person invest his money overseas if he has no reason his money wouldn't be safe or somehow could be laundered/hidden in his home country? Moreover, if someone has gotten money through ill means, of course it won't show up in official statistics. China is the country I would least rely on for quality data anyway.

Something doesn't add up - how did millions of Chinese become millionaires over 2 decades? Through innovation? They built factories and/or they benefitted from the sale of state-owned enterprises intiated during the Deng Xiaoping era.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:33 PM   #72
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There is no doubt that there's corruption here, but it's definitely more muted and it's not as blatant.

@RFlush: I made a bold accusation, but why would a wealthy person invest his money overseas if he has no reason his money wouldn't be safe or somehow could be laundered/hidden in his home country? Moreover, if someone has gotten money through ill means, of course it won't show up in official statistics. China is the country I would least rely on for quality data anyway.

Something doesn't add up - how did millions of Chinese become millionaires over 2 decades? Through innovation? They built factories and/or they benefitted from the sale of state-owned enterprises intiated during the Deng Xiaoping era.
When did investing overseas automatically mean illegitimate reasons? People invest overseas because of VARIETY of reasons. You and your assumptions are unfounded and based on what you hear. My parents invest here because of the stable economic policies and government, they see Canada as a back-up plan IF and WHEN China's economy tanks and government falls. China's economy = penny stocks. Canada's economy = GIC

Millions of Chinese became millionaires because of the free market developed by DXP. Not only is China exporting billions each year in manufactured goods, agriculture goods, and natural resources. They also have 1.3 billion CITIZENS to support. Why is it surprising that there are millions of millionaires in China? Have you been to China?

Corruption exists in every part of the World, obviously China is one of the worst. BUT whose to say China's corruption money is to blame for our tiny vancouver's housing market
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:44 PM   #73
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dude, I guess that's why mainlanders are rushing to buy up Vancouver and moving there families here......keep telling yourself Chinese companies and mainlanders are on the up and up.......if you think China is so great, why don't you move over there...why are you here then?
Let's see.... Stable economy, Fresh Air, One of top 5 cities to live in the world, the education system, english speaking country, easy immigration process, recommendation from friends and family, low crime rate, peaceful country, close proximity to USA, for a better life?

China isn't great for families, It's great for MOOONNEEEYYY. That's why they are moving here, best of both worlds.

HK is a part of China, officially since 1997. Enlighten us on how hk ISNT part of China

I honestly hate fucking corrupted government officials... They should all be shot.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:16 PM   #74
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dude, I guess that's why mainlanders are rushing to buy up Vancouver and moving there families here......keep telling yourself Chinese companies and mainlanders are on the up and up.......if you think China is so great, why don't you move over there...why are you here then?
People move their families here because the living environment is better, the healthcare is better, and you get to experience more "freedoms". China is awesome for making money, not so awesome for living, is that so hard to understand?
How does preference of where to live take away from people in China becoming successful? This "veiled dictatorship", allows a lot of Mainlanders to make money (I'm talking just the ones who make it legitimately), who wouldn't make shit in Canada. They work in China and have their family live here because that's the only way they can afford it.
I know you think EVERYONE in China is a corrupt mother fucker, but from ACTUAL experience and not blind prejudice, there are a LOT of rich Mainlanders who make their money from legitimate businesses; as well as those who do it via illegitimate means. Grouping all rich Mainlanders in one group is border line retarded. Saying that if they really were that awesome they'd stay in their own country is retarded as well.
Are you honestly saying, you wouldn't send your kids to a country with a better environment than your home country, to live a better life, if you could afford it. And guess what, Canada is ridiculously un-business friendly. You either work as a big boy in a big corporation, or you work for a union. Everyone else gets fucked. They couldn't afford to live in Canada if they didn't keep working in China.

The devil is in the details. There are a million things to consider in every scenario, not just two blanketing sides to jump to.

And like most people in this thread, when I see a Mainlander teen in a 6 digit car with an elitist attitude, I say fuck him up the ass as well.
But when I see people who hate on every rich asian person they see cause they're "ruining my country", I say fuck you as well.

/rant
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:51 PM   #75
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I have no issue with people who make their money fair and square, but in many cases, Mainlanders did not make their money fairly. They either embezzled their own government or ran factories which exploit their workers on a daily basis. (But, we buy stuff made from Chinese factories all of the time so we are partly responsible.) It's not like China is a hub of innovation or anything like that.

There are several countries which apply different tax regimes for offshore investors. I don't see why we don't think about implementing similar policies here. Sure the realtors will bitch a bit, but at least local governments get something out of it.
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@RFlush: I made a bold accusation, but why would a wealthy person invest his money overseas if he has no reason his money wouldn't be safe or somehow could be laundered/hidden in his home country? Moreover, if someone has gotten money through ill means, of course it won't show up in official statistics. China is the country I would least rely on for quality data anyway.

Something doesn't add up - how did millions of Chinese become millionaires over 2 decades? Through innovation? They built factories and/or they benefitted from the sale of state-owned enterprises intiated during the Deng Xiaoping era.

Are you even Chinese? or know any successful main lander families? You have made so many assumptions that it makes you sound like another person unhappy with the housing prices and looking to blame someone or something. "yes they must be all corrupt. It wasn't fair." all because you heard 5 stories.. out of thousands of success stories out there? Typical uneducated Canadian attitude if you're gonna make a huge claim, research it or at least think a little more critically about it.
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