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Old 04-27-2012, 01:06 AM   #51
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So legally, they could have an abortion at any given time??
hmm guess ppl didnt read my post :P


we have no laws in canada on whats legal or illegal, the 1988 morgentaler case, that opened the doors for women to abort, simply decriminalized abortion it didn't set any guidelines it didn't do anything other than decriminalize abortion

technically a women can get an abortion when her water breaks if she wants to and it wouldnt be murder but the moment the baby protrudes/comes out of her it would be classified as murder/manslaughter/etc

we, Canada, are the only country in the world with no laws regarding Abortion (hell even much of europe and russia and asia had abortion laws back in the 1920s/30s) there are no laws saying its a womens right to have an abortion so women can still be denied and not all women have easy access to abortion because of that

how archaic are we that we have nothing til this day? and that's all the conservatives are trying to do here its simply the media and the other political parties that are trying to spin this into Conservatives wanting to ban abortion but in actuality we have no idea what they're proposing
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:58 AM   #52
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Pro-choice is not pro-abortion.

I'm still pro-choice and vehemently opposed to abortion. It's basically saying I would do anything to stop it from happening, except force the government to make the choice for you.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:00 AM   #53
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hmm guess ppl didnt read my post :P


we have no laws in canada on whats legal or illegal, the 1988 morgentaler case, that opened the doors for women to abort, simply decriminalized abortion it didn't set any guidelines it didn't do anything other than decriminalize abortion

technically a women can get an abortion when her water breaks if she wants to and it wouldnt be murder but the moment the baby protrudes/comes out of her it would be classified as murder/manslaughter/etc

we, Canada, are the only country in the world with no laws regarding Abortion (hell even much of europe and russia and asia had abortion laws back in the 1920s/30s) there are no laws saying its a womens right to have an abortion so women can still be denied and not all women have easy access to abortion because of that

how archaic are we that we have nothing til this day? and that's all the conservatives are trying to do here its simply the media and the other political parties that are trying to spin this into Conservatives wanting to ban abortion but in actuality we have no idea what they're proposing
That's what I'm trying to figure out. Why do people equate "trying to form abortion laws" with "those evil christians want to ban abortion"?
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:26 AM   #54
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hmm guess ppl didnt read my post :P


we have no laws in canada on whats legal or illegal, the 1988 morgentaler case, that opened the doors for women to abort, simply decriminalized abortion it didn't set any guidelines it didn't do anything other than decriminalize abortion

technically a women can get an abortion when her water breaks if she wants to and it wouldnt be murder but the moment the baby protrudes/comes out of her it would be classified as murder/manslaughter/etc

we, Canada, are the only country in the world with no laws regarding Abortion (hell even much of europe and russia and asia had abortion laws back in the 1920s/30s) there are no laws saying its a womens right to have an abortion so women can still be denied and not all women have easy access to abortion because of that

how archaic are we that we have nothing til this day? and that's all the conservatives are trying to do here its simply the media and the other political parties that are trying to spin this into Conservatives wanting to ban abortion but in actuality we have no idea what they're proposing
First off let me say I am pro choice, I have had my assed saved by abortions twice, no way in hell do I have any interest in having any kids.

Having said that, I too am not understanding why everyone especially the Liberal party is flipping out and overracting and turning this into a pro choice/abortion ban issue when all they are attempting to do is define legally when life begins and modernize the law as the current Canadian law is based on a 400 year old definition, "when a child has fully emerged from the mother's birth canal".

You can all flip out if the Conservatives or any other party tries to define life as beginning at insemination or within the first trimester or 16 weeks, which then would effectively ban abortion/make it a criminal act.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:28 AM   #55
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Actually I am quite OK with that definition
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:02 AM   #56
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OTTAWA (NEWS1130) - Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he'll vote against a motion introduced by one of his MPs that has reignited the national abortion debate.
The Opposition and pro-choice advocates argue Harper himself was inciting a new round of public battles over abortion by allowing debate on Tory MP Stephen Woodworth's motion.

While Harper says he would personally reject the motion, he notes individual members of Parliament can bring anything they choose to the Commons floor. "Every private member can table bills and motions in the House. Party leaders don't have any control over that."

"This motion was deemed votable by an all-party committee of the House. I think that's unfortunate. In my case I will be voting against the motion," he explains.

Harper says he'll vote against bill on human definition - News1130
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:53 AM   #57
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First off let me say I am pro choice, I have had my assed saved by abortions twice, no way in hell do I have any interest in having any kids.
I'm sorry man. I'm just doing this to prove a point.

And that point is, you just proved mine.

"I'm all for a woman's right to choose. Especially when it works out for me"

I'm going to share a story here. When I was 19, I decided to move to BC to join my family that had already moved here . I had a girlfriend at the time. The girlfriend wasn't coming.

It took a long time to decide what to do. I finally decided to leave my home, my way of life and I knew I wasn't going back. It was permanent.

So, I was 19, and I think we were having sex about 3 times a day. After I decided to move, and I'm telling you, I was back and forth on this thing for about 6 months, I became paranoid that now that I decided to leave, this would be when something went down.

She made no secret that she wanted kids. I became 'concerned' that as she was in charge of taking birth control, she could be in charge of my fate.

And I had finally come to terms that my fate involved my coming here.

So, I made a decision. I was 19 years old, and thoroughly enjoying some good times here(i'm gonna stop here as my gf reads this shit, and there is no need for people to know too much about this stuff, but she was a little older and knew how to work the equipment) I stopped. I was not ready to deal with that curve ball in life.

There was no way that she was going to intentionally get knocked up, but the point is, it could have happened by accident, or anyone of a thousand things.

I wasn't ready. I knew that if it happened, man it was going to be had..adoption and abortion were NOT on the menu.

Take some responsibility for the actions you take. There is no such thing as "accidentally getting pregnant" You did decide to fuck, yes? Fucking does actually have the ascribed purpose of making babies, yes? It can be done. I took the responsibility that at that time, I could not even afford the risk of it happening. At 19.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:08 AM   #58
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I respectfully decline to continue this dialogue.

I feel that by discussing it, we are no better than the old men who want to decide what women can do to their own bodies.
I just wanted to point out that I totally respect that decision. Also, and I think this is pretty awesome, that this has been a really mature conversation here.

I just wanted to say, I think there is a huge distinction between "the old men that want to make decisions" and "men being involved in the decisions"

I mean, that shit that went down in the states a few months ago where that girl was vilified as a slut and not a single woman was invited to participate was disgusting.

But I think to eliminate men from the discussion entirely is wrong too. There ARE things that can be done to mitigate some types of abortion that while still providing access, can work to stop some really horrific types-and I'm thinking the partial birth ban in the states, which if you can read the details of that procedure and not support that ban, god, I don't know how you can.

I think it does not matter if you are male or female, it matters that you are a human when discussing things like partial birth abortion, or selective abortion.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:39 AM   #59
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"I'm all for a woman's right to choose. Especially when it works out for me"
Oh no, I would support a females right to choose even if it didn't work out for me, but like with any decision, consultation and consideration should take place with all parties involved, both cases where with girlfriends at the time both on the pill, I just made it clear my stance on it but in the end told them it is ultimately their decision with the 51% vote so to speak. Obviously my preference would be abortion but if they chose routes of adoption or to keep it, I'd give them financial support and such, but made it clear don't expect any traditional family unit model or marriage crap from me.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:42 AM   #60
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But I think to eliminate men from the discussion entirely is wrong too. There ARE things that can be done to mitigate some types of abortion that while still providing access, can work to stop some really horrific types-and I'm thinking the partial birth ban in the states, which if you can read the details of that procedure and not support that ban, god, I don't know how you can.

I think it does not matter if you are male or female, it matters that you are a human when discussing things like partial birth abortion, or selective abortion.
Partial birth abortions ARE horrific. In BC they're only used in the cases of major health issues that either put the mother at health risk or render the fetus non viable and they're extrodinarily traumatic for the mother in either case. I have only ever met two people that I know of who have had to go through this and it fucked them up in ways you can not understand, as if discovering your baby to be has half a heart or is brain dead in the womb isn't fucked up enough.

In the states you know what they make you do? Carry your dead baby to term knowing it can't survive, feeling it survive off what is essentially the life support system your body is building for it and THEN push it out in full labor that rips apart your body, and god your heart because every contraction puts your baby closer to dead, with no comfort of having a baby to hold at the end. Just a funeral to plan. And you have to pay the hospital bills afterwards to boot - about $10,000 I understand for a vaginal birth, more for a C-section.

That's cruel. That's cruel beyond anything I can imagine. I don't know how anyone can survive that cause just thinking about having to go through it makes me kinda wanna put a gun in my mouth.

I believe personally that the increased access to Plan B (which you can get at a pharmacy with out prescription now) and early drug induced abortions that don't require any vacuum or surgery are GOOD THINGS. But to allow women access to these things in the early stages they need to 1. know they're pregnant, 2. have ready access to the information and services and 3. not be getting a lot of moral flack about it because other wise they delay because of guilt and shame.

I also believe in early birth control education and ready access to it for teenagers and even pre teens (because the stats on sexually active 12 - 14 years old would give you nightmares if you had children that age), especially girls. Girls who are educated about their choices and are confident about buying their own condoms and such rather then relying on some guy who really just wants to get it in them as fast as possible, are less likely to get knocked up or get STDs.

This is why I have never understood why anti abortionists aren't all for preventing pregnancy. But that's really it, if you want to prevent elective abortions, that's what you need to do.

Also guys - if you don't want kids, get yourself cut cause that's a whole lot less traumatic then an abortion and far more reversible.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:08 AM   #61
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Take some responsibility for the actions you take. There is no such thing as "accidentally getting pregnant" You did decide to fuck, yes? Fucking does actually have the ascribed purpose of making babies, yes? It can be done. I took the responsibility that at that time, I could not even afford the risk of it happening. At 19.
I totally agree with you. And also with NewGirl's comment about the Plan B.

However, there are far too many youths in this day and age that abuse their ability to have sex. I don't know if it's because their parents/school aren't educating them enough about sex...but people just simply don't care nowadays. "Sex is just sex." Sex isn't about pregnancy, or STDs...it's just a few minutes of pleasure with no real consequences. yeah..no. Even at 25 I still get freaked out with the thought of having a child, and this is even with me protecting myself with BC's and everything!



I will say though, although Plan B can be seen as a "saviour" and can help in real emergencies (condom breaking etc)... a lot of people use it on the regular because they simply don't care enough about themselves to go on the pill or use condoms.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:22 PM   #62
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All the stats say the more you talk to your kids about the realities of sex (especially girls) the more likely they are to delay actual intercourse.

To do this properly though means dealing with some really uncomfortable conversations. Do you think anyone in their right mind wants to have the 'listen I know you have sexual desires, and I appreciate that, let me tell you about some lower risk activities you can do with your boyfriend' conversation with their teenaged daughters? It's horrible. Like genuinely horrible. But you know what's more horrible? Driving your 14 year old to an abortion clinic or a maternity ward.

As for chronic plan b use, it really is birth control as it prevents pregnancy, so what ever to people who chose to use it instead, I don't think there's any moral difference. But who in their right mind would do that? I have in all my years of being sexually active used it once and it was such a miserable experience, I don't know who in their right mind would chose to to it repeatedly.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:34 PM   #63
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I'd say putting your 14 year old through the horror and trauma of an abortion is a great way to prevent future pregnancy. And not one here where there are no protesters, but out in the Fraser Valley where you run the chance of seeing anti-abortion rhetoric.

Parade your Junior High School-aged child in front of people foaming at the mouths, screaming words like "Sinner" and "Whore", then take them inside and let them have their body poked and prodded at, pieces of metal inserted into them to open their cervix, and a vacuum shoved deep inside to suck out the child to be, and then shoved out the door.

I guaran-goddamned-tee that'll keep your kid from having sex until at LEAST her mid 20s.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:20 PM   #64
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I'm sorry man. I'm just doing this to prove a point.

And that point is, you just proved mine.

"I'm all for a woman's right to choose. Especially when it works out for me"

I'm going to share a story here. When I was 19, I decided to move to BC to join my family that had already moved here . I had a girlfriend at the time. The girlfriend wasn't coming.

It took a long time to decide what to do. I finally decided to leave my home, my way of life and I knew I wasn't going back. It was permanent.

So, I was 19, and I think we were having sex about 3 times a day. After I decided to move, and I'm telling you, I was back and forth on this thing for about 6 months, I became paranoid that now that I decided to leave, this would be when something went down.

She made no secret that she wanted kids. I became 'concerned' that as she was in charge of taking birth control, she could be in charge of my fate.

And I had finally come to terms that my fate involved my coming here.

So, I made a decision. I was 19 years old, and thoroughly enjoying some good times here(i'm gonna stop here as my gf reads this shit, and there is no need for people to know too much about this stuff, but she was a little older and knew how to work the equipment) I stopped. I was not ready to deal with that curve ball in life.

There was no way that she was going to intentionally get knocked up, but the point is, it could have happened by accident, or anyone of a thousand things.

I wasn't ready. I knew that if it happened, man it was going to be had..adoption and abortion were NOT on the menu.

Take some responsibility for the actions you take. There is no such thing as "accidentally getting pregnant" You did decide to fuck, yes? Fucking does actually have the ascribed purpose of making babies, yes? It can be done. I took the responsibility that at that time, I could not even afford the risk of it happening. At 19.
That's a great story, but what you're kinda doing is passing judgement that everyone should consider the "responsibilities" of sex as deeply as you.

Some people just don't care as much as you do. Who's to tell them they should?

It's along the same plane as how the religo's think. The only thing that's different is that you're saying that even though someone may not think the same as you, they should still be able to do what they want.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:45 PM   #65
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Man, I often wonder how fathers with daughters keep their sanity. All the power to you, I'd be crazy with paranoia 24/7 of anybody with a penis if I had a daughter.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:50 PM   #66
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All the stats say the more you talk to your kids about the realities of sex (especially girls) the more likely they are to delay actual intercourse.

To do this properly though means dealing with some really uncomfortable conversations. Do you think anyone in their right mind wants to have the 'listen I know you have sexual desires, and I appreciate that, let me tell you about some lower risk activities you can do with your boyfriend' conversation with their teenaged daughters? It's horrible. Like genuinely horrible. But you know what's more horrible? Driving your 14 year old to an abortion clinic or a maternity ward.

As for chronic plan b use, it really is birth control as it prevents pregnancy, so what ever to people who chose to use it instead, I don't think there's any moral difference. But who in their right mind would do that? I have in all my years of being sexually active used it once and it was such a miserable experience, I don't know who in their right mind would chose to to it repeatedly.
I absolutely agree. My mom gave me the talk when I was..12? She explained to me how sex works but in true Momma Crayon fashion...she instilled the idea that I'd be in deep shit if I had sex. I wasnt even allowed to date in HS because she didn't want me to have "relationships" and have it hurt my education. Now that I look back on it..I'm glad I listened. I think i could have been really stupid during those teen years.

Anyhow, even to this day it still makes me uncomfortable to have her know I am active but it worked. I was a "late bloomer" as some of you might say and didn't start having sex until I was out of highschool. Mentally I was more capable to wrap my head around the idea of sex and what can come out of it.

And for the Plan B, I've never used it once. Like you, I don't know how someone can use it more than once...but then agian..it probably wasn't "an accident" but more of a "I just don't want to use the pill cause I dont wanna get fat and my bf doesn't wanna use a condom..sooo...this is the best thing!"
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:37 PM   #67
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also....i want to date 19 yo Grid! fucking 3 times a day?! where the fuck is THAT guy!?
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:51 PM   #68
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also....i want to date 19 yo Grid! fucking 3 times a day?! where the fuck is THAT guy!?
you killed him

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Old 04-27-2012, 04:12 PM   #69
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:24 PM   #70
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That's a great story, but what you're kinda doing is passing judgement that everyone should consider the "responsibilities" of sex as deeply as you.

Some people just don't care as much as you do. Who's to tell them they should?

It's along the same plane as how the religo's think. The only thing that's different is that you're saying that even though someone may not think the same as you, they should still be able to do what they want.
wait.. so he thinks that everyone should think the way he thinks (be responsible for sex), and you think that everyone should think the way you think (free choice for that responsibility), and all of a sudden you're criticizing him because he thinks like a 'religo'?

Your stance might appear to be more benign, but it isn't. Sorry buddy, you just convicted yourself.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:49 PM   #71
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if a pregnant lady can't use the HOV lane, isn't that enough proof that abortion isn't murder?
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:19 PM   #72
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also....i want to date 19 yo Grid! fucking 3 times a day?! where the fuck is THAT guy!?
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:29 PM   #73
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if a pregnant lady can't use the HOV lane, isn't that enough proof that abortion isn't murder?
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:40 AM   #74
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Just sayin...

But seriously, this debate needs to die already, let the women decide and keep your religious hang-ups to yourself.
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:22 AM   #75
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wait.. so he thinks that everyone should think the way he thinks (be responsible for sex), and you think that everyone should think the way you think (free choice for that responsibility), and all of a sudden you're criticizing him because he thinks like a 'religo'?

Your stance might appear to be more benign, but it isn't. Sorry buddy, you just convicted yourself.
The funny thing is that you're making an assumption as to how I actually think on the matter when all I was doing was simply presenting the flip side of the coin.
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