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Old 05-02-2012, 06:15 PM   #1
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Do I have a case? (Speeding) (Solved!/Won)

My court date is June 4 in the Robson Court. I have asked and received for the evidence and the thing that gets me is "-there is no such calibration logs available for our laser instruments."

Last time I went to court in Richmond Court house and as it was my first time in court i decided to stay and listen to the trials. Judge A. Himani was informing the alleged speeders of the procedures the police have to make and he said that police have to calibrate before their shift, and then again after their shift. If the calibration is off at the end of their shift all their tickets are considered void (but if you go out and pay right away to get that 20% or so off you are admitting to guilt for those who dont know.) Judge A. Himani was very informative and mentioned laser methods and radar methods so im assuming there must be calibration for both.

Here are the officer notes as well as what i found in the manual of the laser device the officer used that i found relevant. I also added the letter i used to ask for evidence.
Spoiler!


So the manual says it recommends daily calibration. Although the officer says "there are no such calibration logs available for our laser instruments" wouldn't the system be set up to have that documentation otherwise i would assume officers would NEVER EVER calibrate as there is no repercussions if they dont (they would just say they did even if they didnt). I have a feeling this cop is jerking me off because why wouldn't there be documentation? The manual also states that there should be a set area for such calibration for consistency, so why would they (police department) ignore such an important step? Judge A. Himani is in Richmond so im asking because maybe its different in vancouver? Please those with more knowledge than me shed some light. And please im not looking for answers like "if you were speeding then pay up, stop wasting the courts time" i understand your opinion and respectfully disagree. Keep it on topic! Sorry for the mega long read.

WON CASE BY COP NOT SHOWING UP, SKIP TO LAST PAGE.
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Last edited by z3german; 06-05-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:21 PM   #2
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Regardless of calibration, if you really weren't speeding, 80km/hr in a 50km/hr zone is like purchasing the gun & immediately using it is what you're trying to say.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:30 PM   #3
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Like how he spelled visible wrong. But anyways, you don't need a radar gun to tell that you're going over the speed limit if you're going 80 in a 50 zone. He was nice enough to give you a break and only charge you for 51km/h so I dont see what you're complaining about. I doubt that they would throw out the case because of this
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:31 PM   #4
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belaud View Post
Regardless of calibration, if you really weren't speeding, 80km/hr in a 50km/hr zone is like purchasing the gun & immediately using it is what you're trying to say.
According to Officer Bains he says there is "no such calibration logs" so if there really is no such calibration logs why would officers ever calibrate? If there are no logs at all would it be a not so unreasonable assumption that they have never calibrated it since purchase? Or in fact ever? That long without calibration can make up the gap between 50 and 80 kmh.

Again im not trying to fight my case to win, i made this thread more for the information i can get since now i have the time for this. If in the end you guys convince me to just pay, i will do so. But in learning if i happen to win then all the better!
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:34 PM   #6
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Like how he spelled visible wrong. But anyways, you don't need a radar gun to tell that you're going over the speed limit if you're going 80 in a 50 zone. He was nice enough to give you a break and only charge you for 51km/h so I dont see what you're complaining about. I doubt that they would throw out the case because of this
The last two sentences in the original posts are ment for your type of comments. I have nothing to complain about i understand but as i said in the OP its a learning experience more than anything. And if in the end i can get away with it all the better.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
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According to Officer Bains he says there is "no such calibration logs" so if there really is no such calibration logs why would officers ever calibrate? If there are no logs at all would it be a not so unreasonable assumption that they have never calibrated it since purchase? Or in fact ever? That long without calibration can make up the gap between 50 and 80 kmh.

Again im not trying to fight my case to win, i made this thread more for the information i can get since now i have the time for this. If in the end you guys convince me to just pay, i will do so. But in learning if i happen to win then all the better!
Continuous usage of a gun without calibration will not deter it even further, its calculations remain the same regardless if you used the gun once or 100 times afterwards, the actual difference from no calibration to calibration is 3-5km/hr~, it would've never passed QC if it was reading 80km/hr @ 50km/hr.

Just eat the ticket, guy didn't even charge you for excessive speeding, he's being HELLA nice.

Last edited by belaud; 05-02-2012 at 06:43 PM. Reason: fixed
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:49 PM   #8
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Continuous usage of a gun without calibration will not deter it even further, its calculations remain the same regardless if you used the gun once or 100 times afterwards, the actual difference from no calibration to calibration is 3-5km/hr~, it would've never passed QC if it was reading 80km/hr @ 50km/hr.

Just eat the ticket, guy didn't even charge you for excessive speeding, he's being HELLA nice.
Damn you sound so reasonable T_T sigh, guess another $138 gone in july...
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:00 PM   #9
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80 in a 50 zone isn't excessive

Cop saying charge may go up is trying to scare you, unless you're a douche, fine won't go up.

No log will likely mean get off free, as manufacturer recommends it. But be prepared to argue well in court (by well, I mean good, reasonable, articulate discussion), otherwise, you'll look a fool and judge won't be impressed
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:29 PM   #10
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Another 138? If this is your second speeding ticket you'll be 6 points or over, meaning you'll have to pay more icbc premiums. Just go to court and try your best to dispute, you never know what will happen, the cop might not even show up and they'll throw the case out
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:31 PM   #11
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When do recommendations become procedures?
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:18 PM   #12
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I know this english grad that asked the officer if she could write an essay instead of get the ticket for going 20mph over. She copied and pasted some BS physics from wikipedia and got out of the ticket. Just be original haha
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:00 AM   #13
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at first i was like "who cares about the calibration, just pay the ticket you fuck"

then i looked at your location. then i was like "oh. right."




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Old 05-03-2012, 07:15 AM   #14
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I have a feeling this cop is jerking me off

Im pretty sure what you mean to say is the cop is "jerking you around". Telling people the cop is "jerking you off" is not quite the same thing.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:40 AM   #15
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I know on revscene you get a lot of "you did it, so pay the ticket" but I for one support fighting it.

And I'm not talking, "well, if the cop doesn't show I win" but actually a person taking on justice.

It's these types of cases that come up when there is a big news story, "100's of laser guns not calibrated before use in BC" and shit changes. Yeah, you were probably doing 80 in a 50. The next guy might be doing 54,,in which case the calibration comes into effect.

It's your right to go to court. Right. Not the way we use the term 'rights' in conversation about bullshit, but actual right.

Use it, or you lose it.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:04 AM   #16
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the problem with posting your potential ticket fighting evidence on RS,

is that no one cares, and would rather bash you and flame you for trying to dispute it, rather than just admitting it and paying the ticket.

which is stupid in itself, the guy came here asking for advice and everyone just rags on him for speeding, even if he did, who gives a shit, he's trying to find a loophole, we should be helping him.

I wish we could just come here and discuss potential ticket fighting methods together as a team, since its a car website, instead we bicker and the government collects our money.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:21 AM   #17
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I know on revscene you get a lot of "you did it, so pay the ticket" but I for one support fighting it.

And I'm not talking, "well, if the cop doesn't show I win" but actually a person taking on justice.

It's these types of cases that come up when there is a big news story, "100's of laser guns not calibrated before use in BC" and shit changes. Yeah, you were probably doing 80 in a 50. The next guy might be doing 54,,in which case the calibration comes into effect.

It's your right to go to court. Right. Not the way we use the term 'rights' in conversation about bullshit, but actual right.

Use it, or you lose it.
I'd normally be right on the "man up, you do the crime, you pay the fine" bandwagon, but in this case, I have to agree to a point.

Cops have procedures that they have to follow to prevent them from just sitting at the side of the road pulling people over randomly and handing them any ticket they feel like... or for that matter, from just busting down anyone's door and cuffing them without some burden of evidence.

The dispute process exists to help ensure the cops follow their rules too.

If the cops are getting slack in their procedures, it's absolutely your right to work within the system to keep them accountable, just as their job is to keep you accountable for your actions.

Now given the level of training and experience cops have in estimating speed and that the instruments are normally used for *confirmation* of that estimate; and given that if you were actually doing 80 in a 50 zone, even a noob would know you were speeding, even if they couldn't state the exact speed... I doubt you'll get off on this one. However, it's still a good thing to hold the cop's feet to the fire to "encourage" him to follow proper procedures in the future.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:25 AM   #18
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I think it is worthwhile arguing for the sake of $138.

But, there are few things different with this speed gun that are worth noting. First, there is NO calibration, only a passive "Confidence Check". If you ask why was there no calibration? The cop is right in saying that there is no calibration function with this speedgun. A lot of measurement devices such as a thermometer, scale etc, require an active calibration at a known setpoint, but this device differs. However, I guess you could argue whether or not he performed a confidence check. In the manual it says, "The scope may become misaligned by a heavy blow to the instrument" (Pg. 28). Misalignment to a laser gun means its not reliable, so you could ask the cop, how do you know the officer before you didn't drop it or damage it (which could have dealt a heavy blow) if you don't do a confidence check before you use the gun? Maybe you have better ideas...

Also, the manual "recommends" that the user checks daily, but it doesn't say it "must" be checked daily. It reads "Tele-Traffic recommends that this test be performed at regular intervals (daily)." If the cop says it is checked monthly, or bi-weekly, or weekly? the judge might say, that is good enough. The spec on this device says error values are within +/- 1 mile/hr by the way.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. I am curious to know.

Last edited by GGnoRE; 05-03-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:32 AM   #19
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fight it and see!
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:39 AM   #20
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Curious to know the results as well.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:57 AM   #21
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Yeah, I mean I get a little annoyed with the "hey, the n00b cop made a spelling error in my address, so that means I get off right" posts, but so many times we jump on people exercising their rights to question a ticket received.

Was this guy speeding? Probably. I wasn't there.

Has someone done his homework, collected evidence and going to go to court and make a legitimate case? Hell yeah!

You get props from me right there.

Let's lower the morality clause on revscene a little bit and save it for the dumbasses.

It's not this guys single-handed job to not clog the court system. It's his court system too.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:20 AM   #22
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PMed you some advice. Good luck.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:36 AM   #23
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Another 138? If this is your second speeding ticket you'll be 6 points or over, meaning you'll have to pay more icbc premiums. Just go to court and try your best to dispute, you never know what will happen, the cop might not even show up and they'll throw the case out
I recently had a ticket that had to do with a rolling stop

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Yeah, I mean I get a little annoyed with the "hey, the n00b cop made a spelling error in my address, so that means I get off right" posts, but so many times we jump on people exercising their rights to question a ticket received.

Was this guy speeding? Probably. I wasn't there.

Has someone done his homework, collected evidence and going to go to court and make a legitimate case? Hell yeah!

You get props from me right there.

Let's lower the morality clause on revscene a little bit and save it for the dumbasses.

It's not this guys single-handed job to not clog the court system. It's his court system too.
Awesome bunch of replies! After reading all the replies im gonna fight it. Marco911 gave some great advice as well as other members on the forum. When court date is here i will update you on what happened!
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:31 PM   #24
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I am disputing a rolling stop ticket as well. Well not rolling stop he said I blew through the 4 way stop.

The thing is he had no clear line of sight and a big white van was on my left and waved me through even though he got there first, that is why it looked like I just gunned it through.

Do I have a case?
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:43 PM   #25
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I am disputing a rolling stop ticket as well. Well not rolling stop he said I blew through the 4 way stop.

The thing is he had no clear line of sight and a big white van was on my left and waved me through even though he got there first, that is why it looked like I just gunned it through.

Do I have a case?
Was the cop perpendicular to you? Recently a professor won a rolling stop case with this paper. http://db.tt/u4ahwJbX

it sounds very similar to your case. You can print out the paper and try to understand the jist of it, you can also state what case it is and that the professor won the case. just google his name im sure you can find more details

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