REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events

Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-29-2013, 04:05 PM   #76
RS.net, where our google ads make absolutely no sense!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: burnaby
Posts: 936
Thanked 956 Times in 123 Posts
Maybe police policy and training resulted in no charges. Cops are trained that once they start shooting, they keep shooting until the threat has been stopped.

Shooting Boyd when he's crawling on all fours and doesn't appear to be a threat definitely looks bad and brings the cop's judgment into question. I wonder if the cop was lucky and got away on a technicality.
Advertisement
jaguar604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 04:10 PM   #77
I subscribe to the Fight Club ONLY
 
westopher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: vancouver
Posts: 7,167
Thanked 18,418 Times in 3,973 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy View Post
And I'll repeat what I said before: they had no way of knowing whether he may have had other weapons ON HIS PERSON. He could have had a knife, a gun, an HIV-tainted needle...
So where is the line drawn? Anyone who has had a violent position to the police COULD have all of those things. The amount of time before the kill shot and THE FACT HE WAS TOLD TO CEASE FIRE BY ANOTHER OFFICER is a pretty good indication that that shot shouldn't have been fired.
And don't paint me with the "armchair quarterback" card or I'll paint you with the "blind follower of authority figure" card. So by all means follow away.
__________________
98 technoviolet M3/2/5
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever View Post
Westopher is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82 View Post
seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked
westopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 04:24 PM   #78
RS Veteran
 
Spidey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,773
Thanked 1,264 Times in 617 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 View Post
Whatever happened to appropriate force? In self-defence, generally you are permitted to use the same force back as the one that is threatening you. If it be deadly force, you're allowed to respond back with deadly force, if it's non-deadly, you must respond with non-deadly.

Yes it can be argued that a Kinder Surprise may be used with deadly force but REASONABLE perspective would tell us that a kinder surprise, like a chain or a belt, even as a weapon, is generally not deadly force; although it can cause bodily harm. So then why, is a gun shooting real bullets, permitted to be a response to non-deadly threat? Here lies the problem. It's what the officer reasonably perceived the situation to be not what it actually was.

Either way, I don't see how you can spin that deadly force was justified here because generally it's only allowed when there is an apparent threat of deadly force or grievous bodily harm. Being hit by a bicycle chain once will unlikely cause grievous bodily harm and certainly wouldn't cause death.
You should know better, since you state that you have family members in that wear the blue. Police are not permitted to match the type of force used. If this were true, we would have the cop and the suspect beating each other with their fists, to no avail. Police are permitted to use AS MUCH FORCE as necessary to stop the suspect (whether from continuation of an offence or to take into custody).

Are you saying that if someone swung a bike lock at your face, you would not possibly face grievous bodily harm? It doesn't necessarily have to mean death, but if i saw someone with what he had and was swinging it like a weapon, I would draw my sidearm, and not my baton. A bike chain can also be used to strangle someone too. Depending on the size difference, and how motivated this guy was (drugs and/or mental illness), are also factors when assessing risk. You also have to remember, it isn't just other Police officers the cops have to think about. There could be 4,5,6 cops there, and all have their guns out protecting themselves, but what if the guy runs off to the side where there are nosey bystanders (because there always are), and starts swinging at them? It's a lot more simple than just him and you... or him and your colleagues. It isn't a closed environment.

Again, I am not saying whether the outcome of the incident was right or wrong. But I can honestly say, if I attended, and a guy was swinging around a bike chain/lock or whatever it was, I would have had my gun out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murd0c View Post
I really think the police need to be trained better for situation's like this, it's really said this has happened cause it truly could of been avoided with proper training.
maybe. But you have to realize that you can have all the training in the world, but when it happens in real life it will all go to muscle memory and instinct because no 2 situations are alike. There are too many variables. You can deal with one guy that is tripping big time from drugs and is hallucinating but is cooperative... and the next time he can be violent and uncooperative. You can be trained to deal with violent people, but sometimes verbal judo works, sometimes it doesn't. When do you draw the line. After how long do you try to verbally negotiate with someone before you have to use force? Even with training, and Police do have this training, you never know what you are going to get out of a situation in real life.

I am not going to comment about this one incident because I was not there, and am not going to make a judgement over a small video clip.

Also, Police deal with so many mentally ill people now adays, maybe the problem lies with the mental health system in BC. Personally, more money/resources should be available for people who are mentally ill. Then again, it is nearly impossible to force someone to take their medication. Most if not all meds out there will allow someone to function in society, but the side effects of those meds are horrible. Imagine being a zombie with no feelings or anything because you are on drugs.
Spidey is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 10-29-2013, 05:30 PM   #79
My homepage has been set to RS
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,423
Thanked 1,470 Times in 562 Posts
The dudes crawling on all fours with seven bullets in him, better assume he's got an HIV tainted needle down his pants and he's just baiting them in before he goes on a AIDS stabbing spree. If this is how things are going to happen from now on then there's going to be a lot of senseless deaths in our future.

Guys waving a gun around? Sure shoot to kill. Crawling on all fours with no visible weapons, get real.
MarkyMark is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 10-29-2013, 05:40 PM   #80
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
parm104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,779
Thanked 2,599 Times in 672 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
You should know better, since you state that you have family members in that wear the blue. Police are not permitted to match the type of force used. If this were true, we would have the cop and the suspect beating each other with their fists, to no avail. Police are permitted to use AS MUCH FORCE as necessary to stop the suspect (whether from continuation of an offence or to take into custody)..
That's like saying I should know how an engine works because my cousin is a mechanic...

But your statement is simply not true. An officer is not allowed to use as much force to prevent any offence or take into custody any person. It's as much force needed under REASONABLE grounds (edited from as much reasonable force.) Based on your theory, a peace officer could shoot a person in the back after they run away from a bank robbery in attempt to stop the suspect from getting away.

But regardless of what I (THINK) the law is, the R.S.C. does dictate the grounds for an officer to use deadly force.

This section of the R.S.C. under C-46 (25) sets forth the grounds where the law will protect a person who has the authority to either administer or enforce the law in a situation where physical conflict may arise.

I'd like to avert your attention to 4(D) which states than officer IS protected under this statute, WHEN "the peace officer or other person using the force believes on reasonable grounds that the force is necessary for the purpose of protecting the peace officer, the person lawfully assisting the peace officer or any other person from imminent or future death or grievous bodily harm..."

Addressing your point made that police are allowed to use "as much force necessary" to take a person into custody...the law clearly states that the police cannot use deadly force on a suspect when there are less-violent manners available at their disposal to prevent the flight of the suspect.

That being said, I will not speculate on an issue that I was not present for. I will not speculate what I would do in that situation because I'm NOT or was not in that situation. All I've done and will continue to do is apply the facts provided to the law as it stands.

I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyMark View Post
The dudes crawling on all fours with seven bullets in him, better assume he's got an HIV tainted needle down his pants and he's just baiting them in before he goes on a AIDS stabbing spree. If this is how things are going to happen from now on then there's going to be a lot of senseless deaths in our future.

Guys waving a gun around? Sure shoot to kill. Crawling on all fours with no visible weapons, get real.
Unfortunately, the part that saves the officer in this situation is that he believed that the suspect still had the weapon in his hand. Corroboration from other witnesses, although it ended up being false observations, the victim was believed to have had the weapon in his hand still. Whether it was reasonable for the officer to feel that that was a threat that needed deadly force is a whole different question and I believe that is where the officer's case should've been lost.
__________________
Clicky Clicky For my Feedback

Last edited by parm104; 10-29-2013 at 06:18 PM.
parm104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 05:50 PM   #81
RS Veteran
 
Spidey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,773
Thanked 1,264 Times in 617 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 View Post
That's like saying I should know how an engine works because my cousin is a mechanic...

But your statement is simply not true. An officer is not allowed to use as much force to prevent any offence or take into custody any person. It's as much REASONABLE force. Based on your theory, a peace officer could shoot a person in the back after they run away from a bank robbery in attempt to stop the suspect from getting away.

But regardless of what I (THINK) the law is, the R.S.C. does dictate the grounds for an officer to use deadly force.

This section of the R.S.C. under C-46 (25) sets forth the grounds where the law will protect a person who has the authority to either administer or enforce the law in a situation where physical conflict may arise.

I'd like to avert your attention to 4(D) which states than officer IS protected under this statute, WHEN "the peace officer or other person using the force believes on reasonable grounds that the force is necessary for the purpose of protecting the peace officer, the person lawfully assisting the peace officer or any other person from imminent or future death or grievous bodily harm..."

Addressing your point made that police are allowed to use "as much force necessary" to take a person into custody...the law clearly states that the police cannot use deadly force on a suspect when there are less-violent manners available at their disposal to prevent the flight of the suspect.

That being said, I will not speculate on an issue that I was not present for. I will not speculate what I would do in that situation because I'm NOT or was not in that situation. All I've done and will continue to do is apply the facts provided to the law as it stands.

I'll leave it at that.
25. (1) Every one who is required or authorized by law to do anything in the administration or enforcement of the law

(a) as a private person,

(b) as a peace officer or public officer,

(c) in aid of a peace officer or public officer, or

(d) by virtue of his office,

is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.

CCC does not state "reasonable". Although I do agree when articulating your actions, the use of force should be reasonable, but under CCC what I initially stated was not wrong.
Spidey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 06:01 PM   #82
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
parm104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,779
Thanked 2,599 Times in 672 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
25. (1) Every one who is required or authorized by law to do anything in the administration or enforcement of the law

(a) as a private person,

(b) as a peace officer or public officer,

(c) in aid of a peace officer or public officer, or

(d) by virtue of his office,

is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.

CCC does not state "reasonable". Although I do agree when articulating your actions, the use of force should be reasonable, but under CCC what I initially stated was not wrong.
So you're ignoring the actual part of the code where it states exactly when an officer is protected and making Section 1 a stand-alone act that has no other parts to it...

An act is stated, and the sub-sections of the act further define and set forth when an officer is protected under the law, but we're ignoring that and pretending like it's not there?

Perhaps I was unclear in my last paragraph when I stated reasonable force when I meant force under reasonable grounds. At the end of the day, those two should end up meaning the same thing as force under reasonable grounds would be force that is reasonable and vice versa.

Anyways, there is no point in going back and forth about it. You must've read the entire Act and came to the decision that only Section 1 applies and I respectfully disagree as I chose not to ignore the rest of the act. The Criminal Code is up for everyone to view, anyone that wants to make an informed decision and interpretation can do so themselves.

Section (3) and Section (4) are the expansions and exceptions laid forth by Parliament.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...age-8.html#h-6
__________________
Clicky Clicky For my Feedback

Last edited by parm104; 10-29-2013 at 06:22 PM.
parm104 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 10-29-2013, 06:21 PM   #83
RS Veteran
 
Spidey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,773
Thanked 1,264 Times in 617 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 View Post
So you're ignoring the actual part of the code where it states exactly when an officer is protected and making Section 1 a stand-alone act that has no other parts to it...

An act is stated, and the sub-sections of the act further define and set forth when an officer is protected under the law, but we're ignoring that and pretending like it's not there?
I am not ignoring it. 4(d) specifically states when an officer or anyone lawfully assisting a PO is protected from using force that may cause death or grievous bodily harm. 25(1) just states is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose, which I was referring to initially. It could be for common assault, aggravated assault etc. Ultimately, whether or not a PO is protected under s.25, is how they articulate their actions.
Spidey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 07:20 PM   #84
My homepage has been set to RS
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,423
Thanked 1,470 Times in 562 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 View Post
Unfortunately, the part that saves the officer in this situation is that he believed that the suspect still had the weapon in his hand. Corroboration from other witnesses, although it ended up being false observations, the victim was believed to have had the weapon in his hand still. Whether it was reasonable for the officer to feel that that was a threat that needed deadly force is a whole different question and I believe that is where the officer's case should've been lost.
Even then, it's a chain. The biggest threat at that point is the officer getting a bruised ankle if he's dumb enough to stand there and do nothing but watch him. Oh and AIDS.
MarkyMark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 10:46 PM   #85
Rs has made me the man i am today!
 
ninjatune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: LMD
Posts: 3,145
Thanked 228 Times in 71 Posts
Swinging a chain with a padlock on it at me? Screw you, you're dead. Don't go trying to kill people with a chain. Yeah the guy was mental, yes society probably failed him - but that's not the problem of the cop who responds to the call of a crazy guy beating people with a chain and padlock.

I can easily think of the damage I could do to a living human being with a padlock on a chain, even with one swing. It does not take much to smash someones skull and instantly turn their head into mush. Try taking a hockey stick and swing it as hard as you can into the a piece of wood, how would you like if that wood was your face? You're throat or neck? No thanks!
ninjatune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 11:16 PM   #86
My homepage has been set to RS
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,423
Thanked 1,470 Times in 562 Posts
Once again, was the dude standing up swinging a chain violently at that point? It's just like assholes who kick a guy in his head after he's already down and out. The point of him being a serious threat was over by then.
Posted via RS Mobile
MarkyMark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 11:43 PM   #87
I help report spam so I got this! <--
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,513
Thanked 910 Times in 418 Posts
Those mentally ill people are dangerous as fuck yet they are allowed to remained in society without any preventive/protective measures. I was once pushed in front of a car by one of those people and I was just walking down Burrard....

That being said, I think it's reasonable to say the officer who delivered the killing shot was likely trigger-happy or was just scared shitless. He was told to stand down but didn't. To me, the first 7 shots fired consecutively are justified as a mean to stop the threat. If you choose to unleash on the same target again after, you better have a damn good reason to. Bet he got away from being charged based on technicalities.
Nlkko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 12:02 AM   #88
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,730
Thanked 12,144 Times in 3,366 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by westopher View Post
And don't paint me with the "armchair quarterback" card or I'll paint you with the "blind follower of authority figure" card. So by all means follow away.
EVERYBODY commenting here is a fucking armchair quarterback. NONE of us were there, NONE of us know what actually went down, EVERYTHING said here is speculation based on various media reports, usually those that jive with already-formed opinions (if CiC found a PressTV item on this story, sure as shit he'd be posting that as fact as well).

Blind follower of authority? Hardly. Sick to death of wild speculation and automatic blaming and finger pointing at those who put their lives on the line on a daily basis? Damn straight. Hell, I'd be the first to cast stones if the cop was proven to be in the wrong... the simple fact is, other authorities with FULL ACCESS to the case data have decided otherwise, so who am I to second-guess them based on limited, probably biased info?

Others in this thread decided from day one that they knew exactly how everything went down and where all the blame had to be placed, and will refuse to give up those beliefs no matter what evidence presented to the contrary. They're not the ones standing hip-deep in the shit when it's going down, but they still think they know best how everyone involved SHOULD have performed.

It's worth noting that the ultimate "always-assume-the-cops-must-be-in-the-wrong" watchdog, the BC Civil Liberties Assn., has declined to further pursue this case. I'd think if they could let it go, maybe the collective braintrust here should consider that as well. (Note that the word "brain" automatically excludes CiC...)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"
Soundy is online now   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 10-30-2013, 03:31 AM   #89
Need my Daily Fix of RS
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: vancouver
Posts: 279
Thanked 45 Times in 15 Posts
I started this thread I think I'll add something here.

I have completed a varitey of courses offered through the JIBC and I have been employed in law enforcement not police(no union scapegoating for me), Understanding the use of force protocol is of major importance here. You are allowed to escalate force up to the point of what you are facing no more. You can't use a knife(gun) on someone who does not posess knife(gun). You can not use deadly force against someone unless they are using deadly force against you. Use of force protocol dictates reactive not proactive force. You can not just shoot someone becuse you think there is a possability that they are armed, You have to evalute the force being used against you. Paul was shot 7 times in the body(1 missed) he was ordered to the ground and was unarmed, He was on all fours as instructed and the kill shot indicated he was either on all fours or in a forward leaning direction(coroner report). The kill shot (to the head)didn't enter his face it went directly into the top of his head wich is consistant with the coroners assement.

When was the last time you attacked somone with your eyes pointing at the ground not looking at your target. Paul was shot in the top of his head wile in a very vulnerable position on his hands and knees. This outcome is outrageous from an outsiders perspective, I have been in the industry and my heart is cold as ice now so just cover your ass and keep on keeping on. $$$$$$>lawsuit. Awaiting fails from spidy,soundy and hondaracer...Tell me how many people you have had to fight, Arrest, Charge and testify against before chirping.....

Last edited by impulse777; 10-30-2013 at 04:00 AM. Reason: waiting for fails from people pretending to be on our side
impulse777 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 10-30-2013, 10:04 AM   #90
I subscribe to the Fight Club ONLY
 
westopher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: vancouver
Posts: 7,167
Thanked 18,418 Times in 3,973 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy View Post
Blind follower of authority? Hardly. Sick to death of wild speculation and automatic blaming and finger pointing at those who put their lives on the line on a daily basis? Damn straight. Hell, I'd be the first to cast stones if the cop was proven to be in the wrong... the simple fact is, other authorities with FULL ACCESS to the case data have decided otherwise, so who am I to second-guess them based on limited, probably biased info?


It's worth noting that the ultimate "always-assume-the-cops-must-be-in-the-wrong" watchdog, the BC Civil Liberties Assn., has declined to further pursue this case. I'd think if they could let it go, maybe the collective braintrust here should consider that as well. (Note that the word "brain" automatically excludes CiC...)
When is the last time that one of these charges has actually stuck against a police officer charged with brutal force? When you look at the number of charges to guilty verdicts, doesn't that make you consider that maybe the watchdog/the courts/the police aren't really going to let guilty verdicts be reached for the powers that be? Damage control is the likely the priority before justice. A picture is worth 1000 words, a video is worth 1000000. As stated above. The bullet entered through the top of the head based on speculation of still having weapons. Wether there was malicious intent from the police officer none of us will ever know other than him, but in hindsight it was the wrong decision and that is pretty much quantifiable by the evidence. People pay for their poor decisions all the time in heat of the moment incidents, this should be no different just because he's a cop, but it is. I could be wrong, but the court has proved itself to be COMPLETELY corrupt when it comes to police cases in the past (think Monty Robinson) so how can we trust their verdict is based on the same process as the public. Just because someone was found not guilty doesn't mean they aren't.
__________________
98 technoviolet M3/2/5
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever View Post
Westopher is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82 View Post
seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked

Last edited by westopher; 10-30-2013 at 11:09 AM.
westopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 10:52 AM   #91
RS Lurker, I don't post!
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
.

Last edited by sideways; 10-30-2013 at 11:08 AM.
sideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 07:56 PM   #92
RS Veteran
 
Spidey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,773
Thanked 1,264 Times in 617 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse777 View Post
I started this thread I think I'll add something here.

I have completed a varitey of courses offered through the JIBC and I have been employed in law enforcement not police(no union scapegoating for me), Understanding the use of force protocol is of major importance here. You are allowed to escalate force up to the point of what you are facing no more. You can't use a knife(gun) on someone who does not posess knife(gun). You can not use deadly force against someone unless they are using deadly force against you. Use of force protocol dictates reactive not proactive force. You can not just shoot someone becuse you think there is a possability that they are armed, You have to evalute the force being used against you. Paul was shot 7 times in the body(1 missed) he was ordered to the ground and was unarmed, He was on all fours as instructed and the kill shot indicated he was either on all fours or in a forward leaning direction(coroner report). The kill shot (to the head)didn't enter his face it went directly into the top of his head wich is consistant with the coroners assement.

When was the last time you attacked somone with your eyes pointing at the ground not looking at your target. Paul was shot in the top of his head wile in a very vulnerable position on his hands and knees. This outcome is outrageous from an outsiders perspective, I have been in the industry and my heart is cold as ice now so just cover your ass and keep on keeping on. $$$$$$>lawsuit. Awaiting fails from spidy,soundy and hondaracer...Tell me how many people you have had to fight, Arrest, Charge and testify against before chirping.....:)
What field are you in, if you don't mind me asking? Sheriff? ... So does that mean all the things you have learned are from a textbook? Have you had hands on experience with real life situations; robbery in progress, stolen vehicle, mental ill people, people tripping on drugs? If not, all the points you made are fine, but you are basically spewing out what you read/learned.

If I am responding to a robbery/break and enter in progress, I am damn sure I will have my sidearm out. Break in tool can and are often used as weapons.. deadly ones at that. Just because my sidearm is out, it does not mean I am going to shoot them. Heck it doesn't even mean I will point it at the suspect. But it will be out, and I will be ready to use it if buddy decides to swing at me with a crowbar, screwdriver, or hammer. So the first point you made that I bolded is not true. It may be your opinion, but I do not agree with it. If someone is able to cause death or grievous bodily harm, it is the perception of the Police, or victim. If someone is on top of another person and just laying haymakers at the skull of an unconscious individual, I can articulate why I believe shooting the suspect was the proper response.

So, like I have said before, it isn't yes or no. gun or no gun. I could give thousands of more examples. The real world offers even more.


Second bolded part. When was the last time anyone HERE, who for the most part, isn't a burden to society has gotten into situations like that. I can't imagine many, or any people on this forum who regularly has negative encounters with the Police, let alone other citizens. So to ask people on this forum that question does not accurately backup your theory. Mentally ill people are unpredictable. I would never let my guard down when dealing with drunk, mentally ill, or people influenced by drugs. Because they are unpredictable. As I mentioned before, I am not commenting on this incident for respective thread, because I was not there.

Regarding the last bolded sentence. As you may have already realized from my post(s), I am in Law Enforcement (Police). I am not about to list all the arrests I have made.. But I will keep "chirping".
Spidey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 12:20 AM   #93
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
parm104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,779
Thanked 2,599 Times in 672 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy View Post
Others in this thread decided from day one that they knew exactly how everything went down and where all the blame had to be placed, and will refuse to give up those beliefs no matter what evidence presented to the contrary. They're not the ones standing hip-deep in the shit when it's going down, but they still think they know best how everyone involved SHOULD have performed.)
Didn't you make up your mind from Day 1 too? From what I recall, you had come to the conclusion that the deceased, who happened to be mentally ill, was a bitch and got what was coming to him...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
Regarding the last bolded sentence. As you may have already realized from my post(s), I am in Law Enforcement (Police). I am not about to list all the arrests I have made.. But I will keep "chirping".
It's refreshing getting insight from an actual member of law enforcement and not some rent-a-cop like someone else I know in this thread. If it isn't an intrusion, do you mind elaborating on your occupation in law enforcement? I always hear of people referring to "Spidey" in the police thread and never knew who he was until now lol.
__________________
Clicky Clicky For my Feedback

Last edited by parm104; 10-31-2013 at 12:25 AM.
parm104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 03:00 AM   #94
My homepage has been set to RS
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,423
Thanked 1,470 Times in 562 Posts
In before we find out he's a mall cop
MarkyMark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 07:32 AM   #95
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,730
Thanked 12,144 Times in 3,366 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 View Post
Didn't you make up your mind from Day 1 too? From what I recall, you had come to the conclusion that the deceased, who happened to be mentally ill, was a bitch and got what was coming to him...
As you recall... or as you hear in your imagination?

By all means, find the place I said this in the thread and share it with the class.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"
Soundy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 08:38 AM   #96
The "You'd Know" Moderator
 
impactX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 20,885
Thanked 214 Times in 118 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse777 View Post
I started this thread I think I'll add something here.

I have completed a varitey of courses offered through the JIBC and I have been employed in law enforcement not police(no union scapegoating for me), Understanding the use of force protocol is of major importance here. You are allowed to escalate force up to the point of what you are facing no more. You can't use a knife(gun) on someone who does not posess knife(gun). You can not use deadly force against someone unless they are using deadly force against you. Use of force protocol dictates reactive not proactive force. You can not just shoot someone becuse you think there is a possability that they are armed, You have to evalute the force being used against you. Paul was shot 7 times in the body(1 missed) he was ordered to the ground and was unarmed, He was on all fours as instructed and the kill shot indicated he was either on all fours or in a forward leaning direction(coroner report). The kill shot (to the head)didn't enter his face it went directly into the top of his head wich is consistant with the coroners assement.

When was the last time you attacked somone with your eyes pointing at the ground not looking at your target. Paul was shot in the top of his head wile in a very vulnerable position on his hands and knees. This outcome is outrageous from an outsiders perspective, I have been in the industry and my heart is cold as ice now so just cover your ass and keep on keeping on. $$$$$$>lawsuit. Awaiting fails from spidy,soundy and hondaracer...Tell me how many people you have had to fight, Arrest, Charge and testify against before chirping.....
Your understanding of the use of force is not quite consistent with the National Use-of-Force Model.

Anyhow, I get your point. What Cst. Chipperfield failed to do was the continuous assessment of the threat when the threat (ie: the bike chain) had already been taken away. We can argue all day of whether the constable really believed Boyd still had a weapon on him or whether he deliberately/mistakenly killed Boyd; but we will never find out. After all, they were not able to charge Cst. Chipperfield as they don't really have a solid case without a reasonable doubt.

Hindsight is 20-20, and it is always unfortunate when mental health issues that were neglected by the government escalated to the point that needed police intervention (and the use of deadly force). I don't believe any sane police officer goes to work wanting to empty a clip in someone he/she does not know.
__________________
08 CBR600RR
03 IS300

Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.
impactX is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 10-31-2013, 01:04 PM   #97
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
parm104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,779
Thanked 2,599 Times in 672 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy View Post
As you recall... or as you hear in your imagination?

By all means, find the place I said this in the thread and share it with the class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy View Post
Bitch doesn't know enough to stay down.

He's been violent, he's been belligerent, he's been armed with a dangerous weapon... you've put him down and he's still coming toward you and may STILL be armed with another dangerous or even deadly weapon... what do you do?

Be great if it was really that easy, right?
'nuff said.
__________________
Clicky Clicky For my Feedback
parm104 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 10-31-2013, 07:42 PM   #98
RS Veteran
 
Spidey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,773
Thanked 1,264 Times in 617 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 View Post
Didn't you make up your mind from Day 1 too? From what I recall, you had come to the conclusion that the deceased, who happened to be mentally ill, was a bitch and got what was coming to him...



It's refreshing getting insight from an actual member of law enforcement and not some rent-a-cop like someone else I know in this thread. If it isn't an intrusion, do you mind elaborating on your occupation in law enforcement? I always hear of people referring to "Spidey" in the police thread and never knew who he was until now lol.
PM me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyMark View Post
In before we find out he's a mall cop
Spidey is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 11-01-2013, 07:22 AM   #99
Need my Daily Fix of RS
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: vancouver
Posts: 279
Thanked 45 Times in 15 Posts
ImpactX and spidy I appreciate your informed responses...spidy and mark delving like that is unbecoming.



Oh you really got me now, Real singer there mark, A quick glance at my post history mentioned cctv at metro 7-8 years ago good sleuthing you might like my job...

I am pondering if I should even indulge your pandering in greater detail then this: not a mall cop...but there isn't anything wrong with that job. I have worked in asset protection/recovery in the past. I have had to ''deal'' with drunks,drugs users and the mentally unstable to the perfectly coherent who go bat shit crazy facing the loss of their liberty. I get that what you learn in the books and during combat training goes out the window some what when facing a suspect twice your size who would like nothing more then to beat you within a inch of your life I've been there a few times and proper training really helps in these situations.

Just to partially indulge you. What I do now helps to keep your premiums in check depending on who you are insured by and depending on what I come up with you could be facing civil and criminal penalties.

cst, chipperfield's response that night was more likely then not a mistake rather then malicious but that only leads us to this, Due to provocation "loss of control" is a partial defence to a charge of murder which acts by converting what would otherwise have been murder into manslaughter. Taking into account mens rea and other mitigating factors the absolute minimum here should be involuntary manslaughter if not voluntary manslaughter.....

If it makes you feel better you can write me off as just another arm chair cowboy with no knowledge on the proper application of the law because as you now know I don't ride around in a patrol car all day but then neither does the crown or defence or you know the judge. Of course all our ideas will remain less then informed here simply because police are clearing police on what would otherwise be serious investigations leading to tangable outcomes decided by impartial independant parties. Whatever floats your boat.

Last edited by impulse777; 11-01-2013 at 08:16 AM. Reason: forogt the thumbs up, Hell when in rome right delve away.
impulse777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2013, 10:42 AM   #100
RS Veteran
 
Spidey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,773
Thanked 1,264 Times in 617 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse777 View Post
ImpactX and spidy I appreciate your informed responses...spidy and mark delving like that is unbecoming.



Oh you really got me now, Real singer there mark, A quick glance at my post history mentioned cctv at metro 7-8 years ago good sleuthing you might like my job...

I am pondering if I should even indulge your pandering in greater detail then this: not a mall cop...but there isn't anything wrong with that job. I have worked in asset protection/recovery in the past. I have had to ''deal'' with drunks,drugs users and the mentally unstable to the perfectly coherent who go bat shit crazy facing the loss of their liberty. I get that what you learn in the books and during combat training goes out the window some what when facing a suspect twice your size who would like nothing more then to beat you within a inch of your life I've been there a few times and proper training really helps in these situations.

Just to partially indulge you. What I do now helps to keep your premiums in check depending on who you are insured by and depending on what I come up with you could be facing civil and criminal penalties.

cst, chipperfield's response that night was more likely then not a mistake rather then malicious but that only leads us to this, Due to provocation "loss of control" is a partial defence to a charge of murder which acts by converting what would otherwise have been murder into manslaughter. Taking into account mens rea and other mitigating factors the absolute minimum here should be involuntary manslaughter if not voluntary manslaughter.....

If it makes you feel better you can write me off as just another arm chair cowboy with no knowledge on the proper application of the law because as you now know I don't ride around in a patrol car all day but then neither does the crown or defence or you know the judge. Of course all our ideas will remain less then informed here simply because police are clearing police on what would otherwise be serious investigations leading to tangable outcomes decided by impartial independant parties. Whatever floats your boat.
wth. I didn't even say anything.
Spidey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net