The Decline of our beloved Honda

[optiblue]

My dad had an 83 Honda Civic, Brother had a CRX, Mom has a 94 Civic, uncles and aunts all drove civics/accords, and I had an Integra RS. The cars I drooled over all day long through high school and uni were the SiR coupe, Type-R, S2K and the NSX. Like most poor students, I vowed to study hard and buyself the latest and greatest Honda once I could afford more than one meal a day. Fast forward to a few years ago as i walked into a dealership, I found myself staring at a CR-Z thinking the world was playing a bad joke on me. Long gone were the days of driving feel for the enthusiasts and in came the Eco friendly tree hugging hippie "sporty" hatches (STI was guilty of the later). Cuting my nostalgic story short, I still love Honda's from the early 90's to early 2000's and I sport the Asimo doll in my Mitsu as a reminder that someday I will be back in one. Honestly, Hyundai is the new Honda.

[RRxtar]

I actually think Hyundai is the new Toyota and Kia is the new Honda.

[Tapioca]

Another thing which is slowly killing Honda is luxury brands and their competitive lease offerings. When you can basically own a 3-series for $400-500 a month with free maintenance, why would you buy a Honda?

In the 80s and 90s, luxury cars were only for the wealthy because you basically had to buy them. Now, almost anyone who considers themselves as middle class can afford a Lexus, Merc, or a BMW. A lowly C240 still carries more status than a fully-loaded Civic EX sedan. Like anything else these days, people don't buy cars and expect them to last 10 years - they want a new model every 4-5.

[Kidnapman]

^^^^Well it really depends whether you care more about face or your financial situation. Anyone retarded enough (Half of Richmond) to buy a luxury car for status is fucking kidding themselves. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK.... Just buy a car which you think will serve you well for years to come, not some hunk of steel with a german badge slapped onto its face and ass. It's quite ironic, those who care so much about what other people think about them prefer to show off the not soo elite cars, but the ACTUAL rich people are much more humble and properly INVEST the money in stocks and property to have some money for the education of their sons/daughter instead of giving a shit about what some nobody thinks of them. /end of rant.

[belaud]

3 series, and C class' are so played out, I don't consider them any classier then a Corolla or Camry now.

Though obviously, they ARE in a different class.

To avoid double posting:

When I was car shopping, I had considered the CR-Z, but not seriously enough to bother listing it as one of my options, it was weak, it had squishy springs, the interior was like a fit/civic mushed together, the aftermarket support of this car was limited to aesthetics.

It was a fantastic looking concept, but with any concept, the production model had angles that were shaven, the car is shrunken, the wheels are smaller, it just looked bad compared to the concept.

[Gridlock]

Any car company is going to go through phases of where they lose touch with the consumer.

It's called 'hubris' and the feeling that we can't lose.

GM was at one point, on top of the world. I'm not going to mention the same examples from the article, as I think they were very good, but I'll add the Cimarron. Let's take the cadillac badge, and slap it on a cavalier, add some shitty leather and sell that shit. We're GM! They'll buy it! If not, R+D cost us 50 bucks.

No consideration for the damaging of their name plate. Their entire system was based on being the best and maintaining the best. They had no idea how to deal with an actual struggle. I worked for a company like that(obvious MUCH smaller scale) but they were the best at what they did in the local market, and then lost money(a LOT) and watching a company have to learn to do change was fascinating.

Toyota.

Their perceived quality was legendary. In fact, it was so legendary that they just started making the boring family cars. They said, we're going to stop negotiating price. Thats hubris. That is effectively saying, "our shit is so good, you pay this, or someone else will" So what happened? A few slams to the quality and suddenly their shit doesn't smell so sweet. With nothing to sporty in the showroom-NOTHING there was no reason to go there and think Toyota. The sports cars(grand scale...4 bangers on up) aren't a profit center. They are a dream center. They build EQ(emotion quotient)for your company.

And suddenly we have the BRZ entering the world.

Why are hyundai and Kia hot right now? Because they want to be. No one now thinks "pony" when someone says "hyundai" They think "genesis" and if you think that name happened by accident, you are mistaken. They're making sports cars that get people thinking hyundai and 'settling' for a sonata when they realize that they have a kid to go racing with to the grocery store.

Ford is the one that always fascinates me. I've never personally owned one, but I was raised in a ford family. My mom drove her 88 mustang to death...I finally told her she had to replace it, I couldn't keep it going anymore. They had a lot of the problems of other company's, but were small enough to avoid the big press. Even with the bridgestone tire thing, it didn't impact them as heavy as it could, or should have. Right now, I think they want it to. Their line up is the most import inspired I've ever seen in a domestic manufacturer for good prices and their quality has improved by leaps and bounds.

I think Honda will get it. They'll look at the sales figures and start to learn.

[Kidnapman]

Yeah Gridlock I totally agree with your post about Fords becoming MUCH more reliable. It's a real shame that not much people buy Fords because of its reputation in the past. I feel that people shouldn't judge a company for what it DID, but what its DOING. Hyundai is definitely much like Ford in that they are both starting to build up their reputation for great drivers cars. I guess I was abit harsh to the germans in my previous post about the hunk of metal and the badge, but what I was really trying to get at was to try and look at a car past its badge. One shouldn't purchase a car because someone else thinks its cool, they should purchase it out of their own driver enjoyment, and that imo is what the japanese do well.

[wasabisashimi]

who cares about honda anymore? I drive a honda, but as a company I rather see them fall and fall. Its the only way they can wake up and climb out of this hole they dug themselves into. I will never buy another honda until they bring some heart and soul into their design. Otherwise, They can keep on selling cars to people who are born from 1960 and older.

Current honda is like the "motorola Razr", who wants that piece of shit when everyone is rocking an iphone or Galaxy S2 or something touch screen

[tofu1413]

Originally Posted by Juwlzx

^^^^Well it really depends whether you care more about face or your financial situation. Anyone retarded enough (Half of Richmond) to buy a luxury car for status is fucking kidding themselves. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK.... Just buy a car which you think will serve you well for years to come, not some hunk of steel with a german badge slapped onto its face and ass. It's quite ironic, those who care so much about what other people think about them prefer to show off the not soo elite cars, but the ACTUAL rich people are much more humble and properly INVEST the money in stocks and property to have some money for the education of their sons/daughter instead of giving a shit about what some nobody thinks of them. /end of rant.

people nowadays tend to get cars they cant quite afford... u should see leasing companies nowadays...

one year leases on high end premium cars isnt out of the norm nowadays in vancouver! ud be surprised how many customers actually walk into premium dealers... with really bad credit.

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Another thing which is slowly killing Honda is luxury brands and their competitive lease offerings. When you can basically own a 3-series for $400-500 a month with free maintenance, why would you buy a Honda?

In the 80s and 90s, luxury cars were only for the wealthy because you basically had to buy them. Now, almost anyone who considers themselves as middle class can afford a Lexus, Merc, or a BMW. A lowly C240 still carries more status than a fully-loaded Civic EX sedan. Like anything else these days, people don't buy cars and expect them to last 10 years - they want a new model every 4-5.

How do you lease a 3 Series for 400-500? How much down do you need for a payment like that?

[NLY]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

How do you lease a 3 Series for 400-500? How much down do you need for a payment like that?

I had a friend lease a 2011 bmw 323i for under 300 a months with zero down payment. This was back in 2011 when he just sold his integra, he walked into the dealership and test drove the 323i. He told the salesmen exactly how much he wanted to pay monthly and if the salesman had no solution, he would go lease a honda.

I mean it's a 323i but for $300 a month? (we're talking the same price for a camry, accord, altima, etc) That's fricking awesome.

It was the BMW dealership on cambie right by the McDonalds and used euro car dealership.

I still couldn't believe it.


P.S. I apologize for not being as coherent with details about the vehicle. I believe it was a demo with very low KMS (under 5,000)

[LiquidTurbo]

That's amazing. If you're leasing a car for only that cost a month, it sure beats owning these things.

[NLY]

Yeah definitely, combine that with the idea of writing off a percentage of the payment/insurance as a work expense.

I always tell him he's got a horseshoe up his bottom.

[tofu1413]

leasing demo specials... bmw lease rates are competitively insane.

they have definitely taken a chunk out of the lower end car segment with those lease rates.. i mean, who wouldnt?

not to mention they do offer maintenance pkgs too!

[NLY]

It's somewhat confusing when you walk into a Honda dealership and deal with the smug arrogant salespeople that treat you like a paycheque. (I'm basing this off of the Honda dealership at the automall)

I remember going to check out the new Honda Pilot and as soon as I finished the test drive, the sales guy brought up the numbers and would not negotiate at all. He must of been a top sales guy selling cars left and right because that's the mentality he had and it showed in the way he presented himself. No negotiation on the price, lease or finance rates, it was basically "buy it for this price or leave because someone else will."

I don't want this to turn into a dealership rant but when I went to Mercedes/BMW, they were much more compassionate towards selling their cars.

[PJ]

Originally Posted by Juwlzx

^^^^Well it really depends whether you care more about face or your financial situation. Anyone retarded enough (Half of Richmond) to buy a luxury car for status is fucking kidding themselves. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK.... Just buy a car which you think will serve you well for years to come, not some hunk of steel with a german badge slapped onto its face and ass. It's quite ironic, those who care so much about what other people think about them prefer to show off the not soo elite cars, but the ACTUAL rich people are much more humble and properly INVEST the money in stocks and property to have some money for the education of their sons/daughter instead of giving a shit about what some nobody thinks of them. /end of rant.

Thanked you for good points. But at the same time like people posted above, it's not always that simple. There's lots to consider.

I agree that an entry level luxury car does not turn heads. You see as many C-Classes, 3-Series, and A4's rolling around in Richmond as you do Civics and Corollas.

But at the same time, if you're a car guy (after all, we're on a car enthusiast forum), then cars will always be a vice of yours. Sure if you just want a reliable car that you can drive forever until it dies, then go with financing an A-to-B Civic or something. But for that same price (let's say 500 a month) you can lease an entry level luxury car. Not to mention lower lease rates and lease write-offs (if applicable). No, you're not impressing anyone, but you get to enjoy a nicer ride. And who doesn't like driving nicer cars? After all, lease or finance, you're only paying for the depreciation of the car (unless you keep the car forever on the finance and never sell it.) So if people finance a Civic and end up selling it a few years down the road, for the same monthly payments they were paying, they could've been driving a leased luxury. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I never thought in a million years I'd even think about leasing. But now that I learned more about it, it actually makes more sense in my situation.

There are plenty of "ACTUAL" rich people who drive nice cars. Yeah, they know how to spend their money wisely, but that doesn't mean they don't enjoy themselves.

[NLY]

Originally Posted by PJ

I never thought in a million years I'd even think about leasing. But now that I learned more about it, it actually makes more sense in my situation.

I was in the same boat, I just leased my latest car and I couldn't be happier.

[C5_Ryder]

I don't get why everyone doesn't lease. You can purchase or refinance the car after the lease. If the redidual is higher then the value of the car, you buy it. If its not you walk away. Your not really renting it. Those payments goes towards paying down the car. Doesn't this sound better then financing a car?

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by tofu1413

leasing demo specials... bmw lease rates are competitively insane.

they have definitely taken a chunk out of the lower end car segment with those lease rates.. i mean, who wouldnt?

not to mention they do offer maintenance pkgs too!

Anyone know if Mercedes is equally competitive as BMW? Just curious

[too_slow]

^Nah, only because BMW over-inflates their MSRP and residue values.

They make $ on 1st hand lease, and make money again on CPO lease/finance..

I still remember reading an article about how Berkshire refuses to invest in BMW, because the BMW Ag (car company) is just a toy to BMW Finance (which is quite a bit bigger than the actual car company)...

Anyways, sorry for going slightly off topic..

I hope for Honda's sake that they will resurrect a RSX/Prelude type car that can match the fun to drive/value factor for a FR-S. Then again, a base BB6 in 2000 was over $29k ($33k in todays dollars), I don't think it's possible..

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by C5_Ryder

I don't get why everyone doesn't lease. You can purchase or refinance the car after the lease. If the redidual is higher then the value of the car, you buy it. If its not you walk away. Your not really renting it. Those payments goes towards paying down the car. Doesn't this sound better then financing a car?

Leasing carries restrictions on mileage and modifications. I would imagine you also have to follow the dealer's maintenance schedule. In some cases, the manufacturer's maintenance schedule underestimates the wear-and-tear that a car goes through.

On another note, I'm somewhat ambivalent about the leasing model from a car longevity perspective. I understand why BMW has moved to a leasing model in order to remain competitive on the global stage. However, the company now produces cars which are no longer built to last.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by too_slow

I hope for Honda's sake that they will resurrect a RSX/Prelude type car that can match the fun to drive/value factor for a FR-S. Then again, a base BB6 in 2000 was over $29k ($33k in todays dollars), I don't think it's possible..

If the FR-S/BR-Z twins do well over the next couple of years, the other carmakers such as Honda will have to respond. Honda executives probably think there's no market for such a car, but they could get their eat their words in a few years.

On the other hand, tastes of the market have changed too. I personally don't think you need all the crap that goes into cars these days such as traction control systems, nav systems, parking sensors, active steering systems, etc. In fact, the only mass-produced car which remains true to its roots is the Miata. Unfortunately, most people want it all - creature comforts, and a thousand horsepower with 8-speed dual-clutch transmissions.

[too_slow]

^Pretty sure stability systems are a mandate for all cars starting in MY2012.

From my recollection Honda is extremely pathetic in only allowing you to add BT and TCS on the most expensive models. Hell, with the Oddysey you can only get a 6spd auto on the Touring model when everyone else has a 6spd auto as standard

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by too_slow

with the Oddysey you can only get a 6spd auto on the Touring model when everyone else has a 6spd auto as standard

Good point too_slow.
That was one of the negatives against buying the Odyssey. Cross shopping it with the Sienna, the Odyssey was down 10hp and lacked that additional gear.

I still went with the Honda in the end, mainly because of a few minor features, but also because it drives like a Honda. I preferred dealing with the Honda service dep't, and they were willing to make a deal on exactly what I wanted. Plus the kids can watch a dvd in comfort while I pretend I'm Ayrton Senna while driving the S2S to Whistler.

Originally Posted by rizo

I believe it was a demo with very low KMS (under 5,000)

That seems like a crazy good deal.
Depending on how long he signed for. If it's less than 3 years, he did well. But if he signed on for 60 months, the numbers say he could be fucking himself.

[xerograv]

My 2nd to last car was an 04' accord coupe, I loved that thing, it was fantastic, then I sold it, and a year later bought a ford focus, it was pretty awful, and I've gotten back into the Honda/Acura fold, I don't think I'll ever leave again, but when I went to the dealer on a 2013 Civic SI they told me the lowest they could give me was $550 a month, to hell with that, the acura dealer across the street was willing to give me a TSX for $380 a month, nearly took it.