I think there is some confusion here. The fiery pit of sulfur etc is often used to describe hell, but at it's core, it is described as a place devoid of God. Basically a place outside his presence. Again using my other analogy, this would equate to someone without the love of a parent/guardian. No one to go back to when you are out of luck, out of money. No one to offer them unconditional love or even love at all. More of a personal hell than anything.

Sin doesnt go un-punished, but not in the way you are thinking. I think in revelations, the punshiment for believers would be that all their sins would be announced from the rooftops for all to hear. Everything would be known to everyone.

seems like a pretty peaceful place to me.

No it's not, it's just good parenting.

This is the essential problem that skeptics (like me) have problems with when it comes to discussions of religion.

"God is absolute and His Truth is supreme!"
...
"Well, what I think that means is..."

Absolute Truth is Absolute Truth. It shouldn't require interpretation if it's an Absolute Divine Will.

Yup my mistake, after some more research, I can't find anything in revelations like I had said. Must have heard it somewhere when I was a kid to instill some fear.

There are no conditions to my receiving my parents love, not even for me to call them my Mother or Father or to include them in my life. If I were to abandon my relationship with my parents today, cut them out of my life without notice, I have no doubt that the love they feel for me would be unchanged. Even if I were to strengthen my relationship with my in-laws in turn, coming to consider them as my true parents, I still have no doubt that the love they feel for me would be unchanged. That, is unconditional love.

Yup, it's been explained to me that 'hell' is as you've described it.

My question following that description has remained constant, why describe a place that is essentially a void absent of love as a 'fiery pit of burning sulfur'?

One could say, consignment to a 'fiery pit of burning sulfur' is meant to describe the experience of the absence of God's love in degree of suffering. That's quite the stretch, however..

None taken. Education is the ultimate key to anything, practice, and a good support system. Sure there are some child prodigies, but for the rest of the population, mastering a skill can be done, it's not arrogance, it's discipline. 10,000 hours is all you need. (really good book, if you haven't read it)

As for the eventual destruction of the human race, of course it'll happen, it's bound to happen, be it through natural disasters, diseases, wars etc. It's not a revelation (pun) it's documented proof. Civilizations have come and gone before us and it's not because we're being punished by a God, it's just the way the universe works.

Are you a catholic or a protestant or some other sect?

doc·trine/ˈdäktrin/
Noun:
A belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group.

Church doctrines change all the time.

Pius XII made it crystal clear as to just what it takes to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church:

"Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith, and have not, to their misfortune, separated themselves from the structure of the Body, or for very serious sins have not been excluded by lawful authority." (Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, encyclical, June 29, 1943; Denzinger 2286)

A highly respected Catholic theologian and teacher explains what the Pope said in these terms:

"According to this declaration three conditions are to be demanded for membership of the Church: a) The valid reception of the Sacrament of Baptism. B) The profession of the true Faith. C) Participation in the Communion of the Church. By the fulfilment of these three conditions one subjects oneself to the threefold office of the Church, the sacerdotal office (Baptism), the teaching office (Confession of Faith), and the pastoral office (obedience to Church authority)." (Ludwig Ott, Op. Cit.)


COUNTERED BY:

"In the worship of any religion whatever, men can find the way toi eternal salvation, and can attain eternal salvation." (Pius IX, "Syllabus," or Collection of Modern Errors, Section III; Denzinger 1716)

"We must have at least good hope concerning the eternal salvation of all those who in no wise are in the true Church of Christ." (Pius IX, "Syllabus," or Collection of Modern Errors, Section III; Denzinger 1717)

Here's more:
1st ISSUE: Basis of Truth

BIBLE: The Bible is the sufficient source for truth

Titus 1:2 - "God cannot lie."

Matthew 4:4 - Jesus answered "It is written: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Deuteronomy 4:2 - "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it."

2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto every good work."

ROME says: The basis of truth is not just the Bible but also tradition plus what is proposed as divinely revealed by the Roman Church.

CCC* 82 - "The Church... does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." (*Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), Veritas, 1994.)

Canon 750** "All that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, that is, in the one deposit of faith,... must be believed with divine and catholic faith." (**The official Post-Vatican Council II Roman Catholic source quoted is The Code Of Canon Law: A Text And Commentary promulgated by the Authority of Pope John Paul II, 1983, published by the Paulist Press, 1985.)

QUESTION: If God said His word was all we need, why would we seek religious traditions which end up according to Jesus in St. Mark 7:13, "making the word of God of none effect" (of no use)? Scripture is to be our only source for God's truth.

2nd ISSUE: Inerrancy

Can we trust the Bible, or the Church to speak faithfully for God, and without any error?

BIBLE: God's Word alone is without any error.

Psalm 12:6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

Psalm 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning."

John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth."

Proverbs 30:5-6 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

Romans 3:4 "Let God be true, but every man a liar."

ROME: The Pope's word is infallible when he proclaims on matters of faith or morals.

Canon 749 - "The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful ... he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such." (Sect. 1)

Canon 333 (Sect. 3) - "There is neither appeal nor recourse against a decision or decree of the Roman Pontiff."

QUESTION: Which authority are you willing to stake your future on - God's word, or man's teaching?

3rd ISSUE: How One Is Saved?

BIBLE: It is by grace that a person is saved through faith in the substitutionary death of Christ Jesus. This is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Isaiah 53:5 - "But he (Jesus) was wounded for our transgressions (sins), he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed."

Romans 5:1 - "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 10:26 – "There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

ROME: We become children of God by baptism, and through a whole lot of effort from then on.

CCC 1821 - "In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ."

Canon 849 - "Baptism, the gate to the sacraments, necessary for salvation in fact or at least in intention, by which men and women are freed from their sins, are reborn as children of God..."

QUESTION: With all your best efforts, are you 100% certain you are worthy of heaven when you die, and that you will not end up instead in hell for all your sins? If not sure, then don't overlook the full forgiveness and pardon offered by Jesus Christ on the cross!

4th ISSUE: Confession to God or Man?

BIBLE: Sins are forgiven by you confessing them directly to God.

Mark 2:7 - "Who can forgive sins but God only?"

1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Psalms 32:5: "I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin."

1 Timothy 2:5 - "There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

ROME: The only ordinary way to have serious sins forgiven is to confess to a priest.

CCC 1456 - "Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance."

Canon 960 - "Individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the only ordinary way by which the faithful person who is aware of serious sin is reconciled with God and with the Church;. . ."

Canon 978 (Sect. 1) - "In hearing confessions the priest is to remember that he acts as a judge as well as a healer..."

The only way into heaven is to have all your sins paid for before death. The Church says it is by your works of contrition and penance, while God says it is by faith in the perfect work of Jesus Christ! Shouldn't you be trusting Jesus, who alone gave Himself in your place on the Cross knowing every one of your sins ahead of time?

5th ISSUE: Graven Images

BIBLE: We are to have no graven images for worship. God utterly despises them!

Exodus 20:4-5 - "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God."

Leviticus 26:1 - "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it. "

Romans 1:22-24 - "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image.... Wherefore God also gave them up."

Yet ROME says: Display of sacred images is to remain, to encourage the worship of the saints.

Canon 1188 - "The practice of displaying sacred images in the churches for the veneration of the faithful is to remain in force;

QUESTION: Does God want anyone to turn to idols or to religious statues as aids in worship when we have a living Saviour and Lord named Jesus?

Yes, I thought about culture being one of the factors. Yes, it can be the influencing factor. However, there are also Christians in countries that are predominately other religions: Egypt, Indonesia, India, etc... You'd be surprised at how God can reveal Himself in countries that are predominately other religions. I think God reveals Himself through nature and through our lives.

In the end, I cannot tell you nor can anyone tell you who is going to heaven or hell; that is God's decision. It is by faith alone that we believe we are going to heaven, based on what Jesus has done for us. Also, the reason for believing in God is not to go to some nice place called Heaven. It is because you desire an eternal relationship with God, because you trust it's the best thing in the world. That to me is what "Heaven" is about really.


I cannot explain all the reasons why suffering happens. I can only explain why my own suffering happens. The reason for my suffering is to shape me into a better person, to teach me humility that I'm not ultimately in control of my life, to cause me to search for answers about the meaning of life and to ultimately find the answer in God. Nobody can tell you why someone else suffers, but if you reflect on your own life and see where the suffering has lead you, then you might find some answers. Though people suffer, people can have hope that things will be made right one day if they believe in a righteous and all-powerful God.

What you quoted was Exodus and Deuteronomy. That was when the Israelite had no laws and God was laying out the foundation of discipline. Therefore, the rules stated there are to help prevent those things from happening with harsh consequences. Also, we can go deeper into the issue of slavery at that time in history. I'd rather not since I'm not knowledgeable enough and it does require historical context.

As for Ephesians, it's the same thing in terms of slavery at the time in history in Rome. It is not promoting slavery, but given that slavery exists this is what slaves should do. It's basically saying be honest and good work for your employer. As silly as that sounds for slaves, slaves were like employees that employers were supposed to take good care of. Therefore, they should work hard as an employee. That's my take.

My understanding of what Christianity's principal is: "Christ died for our sins to redeem us, so that we are reconciled with God."

Most Christian denomination have this as the principal. They may disagree on other things, but not on this principal. If they do disagree on this, then I would not call that religion Christianity.


It'd be interesting to talk to you more on a personal level to discuss your understanding of the Bible and what you've learnt.


When I said "God seeks out man and love" are unique to Christianity, I generalized God sending Christ to die for our sins. That is unique to Christianity.


The fiery lake of sulfur is a metaphor, just like the gnashing of teeth, Hell and other things found int he Bible. To me "Hell" is just the absence of God, because that's what those people in Hell want. They want nothing to do with God and God gave them what they wanted. It is described through such metaphors, because those people will eventually realize that there is no hope in the world, no righteousness, no unconditional love that God offered.

This love they have for you sounds great. If I wanted to be loved by your parents the same way, how could I get that same unconditional love from them?

You should read my post here on why I think that is here.

God kills more people than the Devil in the bible. :considered:

And that is why I'm not catholic or any denomination of Christianity that believes one person dictates what God's Word means. God wants a relationship with you personally, not through some other medium or person.

To be honest, I didn't read all those quotes. =P

Maybe my understanding of doctrine is different. I mean the core believes of a religion. For me, Christianity is just "Christ died for our sins to redeem us, so that we can be reconciled with God". That's the main doctrine of my faith.

Personally, I just find it disgusting to use as anyone's moral compass. Why not treat everyone equally, that should be in the 10 commandments.

It's bad to beat a slave to death but alright if the slave survives for a couple of days before dying off?

Where is the love and compassion?

But if that's the case, then how can you trust the bible? The bible was put together by a council of what was the precursor of the Catholic religion. Some of the stories were modified and changed to reflect the attitudes-du-jour as well, down the road.

I agree that we should all have a personal relationship with the thing that shapes our beliefs and attitudes, but when the basis for that is something that was voted on democratically two thousand years ago through written records of the word-of-mouth stories of someone who'd been dead for hundreds of years...I find it very difficult to believe that it's the Unaltered Word of God and Absolute Truth. Especially when its interpretations change over time.

This is one of the reasons why I'm much more comfortable as an agnostic; saying "I'm not sure and maybe one day we'll find out" is better for me than "This is the Absolute Truth and how It Really Happened. Except this part. And this part. And that part...well, we probably shouldn't pay attention to that. And then there's the other thing that used to mean this but means this now."

Add to that the fracturing and the splintering of the many different faiths who all profess to worship the true version of whichever deity, and it makes it easier to look to science for "how" answers, and simply acknowledge that I will most likely never get an answer to "why". For me, it's much easier to look at things this way rather than have to try and reshape and warp my existing world view to conform to a 2,000 (or 6,000 if you're jewish) year old book.

Oh, and fun random sidenote about religious fundamentalists. It's not just limited to Christianity.

The recent controversy and riots that've been happening in Libya, Egypt and other places in the middle east that were spurred on by the (actually incredibly shitty and deceptively produced) anti-Mohammed movie come from the ban that Muslims place on displaying any depiction of Mohammed.

Now, very few media outlets have gone into the details of why depictions of Mohammed are forbidden. Anybody want to know? Anyone curious? Even a little bit?


It's because...


Fun fact is that Jesus was also considered a prophet of Allah. And yet no Muslims protest the depiction of him or any other Prophet.


Ah religion. Thy name is hypocrisy.

Agree, even the peaceful Buddhism has its own share of serfdom and slavery issues.

It does take faith to believe the Bible is the Word of God. I studied and am still studying it. Based on what I've studied so far, it has a continuous message throughout. This helps me put my faith in it. If there were glaring contradictions I'd also question its authenticity as God's Word.

Interesting, what makes you believe in some higher power vs. being atheist?

This is consistent with most of the other prophets, angels and other servants of God mentioned in the Bible. They all want the attention put on God rather than themselves. This is how it should be and it's a sign of humility.

The problem is when people take it too far by saying no images can be made of characters mentioned in holy text. They forget the intention of the "don't make images" is to prevent people from worshipping idols and forgetting the real God.

This whole media story around the film, the creation of the film and the reaction of some extremists is just plain wrong. This world is screwed up and I think most people can agree with that.

Anyways, it's not like we can ever come to conclusions on religion and faith. Even if I answered all your questions, will you really become a Christian? I think not.

Christianity has never been about logic, but personal experiences of God. It's not something you can teach. That's why I don't try to preach to non-Christians. I try to live the life Christ wants me to live. When I do that, I feel people will see the results and be curious. This is the best way, in my mind, to help people understand God and His love.

I read the bible, but I also read a variety of different translations. And a bit of the history of it. The thing that really awoke me to the ease of changing this kind of thing was the original King James. He hated witches, and so changed every 'sinner' to 'witch'. If one dude could change everything...how do we know it was all changed back?

Did you know that Hebrew has no punctuation? How do we know every bit of puncutation is exactly where it should be? Let's look at Isaiah 40:3
or is it
Two places, one colon. It wouldn't make as good a video as that other one, but it is a more challenging conundrum.

Please. Please. Do not lump me in with the atheists. In my mind, Atheism requires just as much faith as Theism, but in the exact opposite direction. I'm an agnostic. I have no idea what lies in the future or in the past, or why anything happened. I am much much more comfortable saying "I have no idea right now" than I am saying "Everyone is wrong and I am right". For me, Atheism is just as un-falsifiable as Theism is, which means that I can't believe in either God or not-God without proof. No proof, no belief.
Bingo. And the thing that is hilarious (not in a funny way, in a sad way) is that by being so extreme towards Mohammed, they are in fact doing exactly what he didn't want them to do. Ironing of ironing.

Quite.
You're right, but that's because you would have to say "You won't return to Christianity" rather than "you won't become one".

And mad props to you for being like that too. I have a lot of friends who are like that, but I also have just as many who say "Wow, you're such a good person. You should come to my church and find out what it means to be really good!"

And it pisses me off twofold. First, it insinuates you can't be good without their brand of Jesus. Second, it goes against Jesus' teachings. Again, the hypocrisy.

I think, for once, Mindbomber and I are on the same side.

Couldn't help but point out, why not agnostic to Zeus, Santa Claus, etc etc?

And your mentioning of atheism requiring as much 'faith' as theism is just not correct.

Atheism requires faith like 'off' is a TV channel. From what I've seen, agnostics and atheists are essentially the same thing. Agnostics just seem to pretend to be a tad more clever or humble by going 'I don't know.'.

But for some reason agnostics fail when it comes to Zeus or Atlas. Who knows, there COULD be some invisible deity that's actually holding up the earth! I just don't know!