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Old 09-12-2012, 12:53 PM   #176
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it was faith that got the wright brothers going and believing that they could get it done

faith/belief pushes a lot of scientists and inventors towards/into the realm of innovation or if you will... creation

why does faith mean one would expect "divine intervention"?
There are two definitions of faith;

faith/fāTH/
Noun:
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

For us who like to reason, we obviously have no problem with 1, it's 2 that troubles us as we strongly value evidence over blind acceptance, that's all.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:43 PM   #177
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is that not semantics?

complete trust or confidence in SOMEONE or SOMETHING.

if you aren't religious, and you put complete trust in someone or something, without doing all the rigours of science and finding evidence and proof yourself (or looking up work done by a lot of others and cross referencing). is it not exactly the same thing?


ive come to the conclusion that there are two types of people on BOTH sides of the arguments.

the typical follower. and people that... know more.

BOTH SIDES. there are science zealots, and religious zealots.


follower religious people hang on to old archaic stupid stuff like dinosaurs didnt exist and earth was created in X days etc. etc.

follower scientists just follow what other "scientists" have said. they just usually do the easiest thing, attack what follower religious people say.

it's like a brawl of the followers/supporters.

the real debate is up top where the intellectuals sit.

the top intellectuals from both sides. i highly doubt the top intellectuals from the religious sides ever argue FOR the stupid shit like dinosaurs didnt exist and world created in X days.

to put it in perspective,

thousand years ago vs now.

religious stories havent really changed, and people generally still believe them, but less and less people believe it cuz, well, there's new information and old stories gotta go, cuz they're old and outdated.

bible v9.0.2 or whatever. the problem is most people are still following bible... beta. LOL. because the followers of religion just follow. and followers are unable to think for themselves (even though they think they can). they need these stories to anchor them in reality. they are unable to think abstractly. they cant think in the grey zone. they need something black and white. true religion isnt black and white. it's VERY GREY. but followers are unable to think grey. at all. they need these childish black and white stories. MOST people need some sort of black and white. even most scientists.

the most brilliant scientists are all grey area guys. for instance Einstein. thinking out of the box. MOST people from BOTH sides cannot do that.


it would be the same as if an religious person attacked scientists because of the errors in alchemy/astrology and other protosciences (not pseudosciences). but those things are all ANCIENT and old (even though some people still believe it).

science can be updated. religious stories cannot be updated. that's the key problem. what would they update to? who would be in authority to change it? who would agree? because they are so black and white, and based on ancient texts, you CANNOT update them. they just stay static forever. science people are attacking 2000 year old stories.

religious people can do the same, attack 2000 year old science.

but both methods are totally retarded.

you cant include the lower ranking people in any structure in a debate. they're just followers, supporters. most people on this planet fall into that category. and ironically, no matter what these people support, most of it is based on faith. based on feeling. based on group momentum. not individual, scientific logic. even the ones that side with science.


i mean how many of you scientists actually are scientists? or do you just read an article based on science and say, oh look the scientists say this. yay science!
but most of you dont even know what half the shit in the article means. or if its biased. or anything. you just believe what it says. IS THAT NOT FAITH? SAME AS RELIGION.


what needs to be done is to find the top intellectual leaders from BOTH sides.

but i have a feeling they'd just come to some kind of mutual agreement anyway.


now, i'm not a christian, far from it.

but i play the devils advocate because pally777 doesnt seem like he's one of those extremist bible thumping zealots that believe jesus rode a dinosaur and all that. he seems to be getting at something bigger, beyond petty semantics. yet not a lot of people are following. they keep referring back to religious stories and what trailer trash KKK joe dirt believes in.

if one comes across a follower of religion, and they keep spewing retarded stuff like these archaic stories, there's no way you can convince them of anything else. you can kill them. thats about it. or ignore them.

the same when one comes across a follower of science. blabbing on about free energy, or some other radical scientific idea.

i have a buncha friends that are phd's in their respective fields.

you know how many science articles i send them about science and new findings and cool new things that could totally change humanity. they look like me like im some sorta brain washed retard.
they throw back 100 reasons why it wont work, why its just bullshit, or that its widely known in science that if you believe that science, you're not a real scientist.

these things are only known by TRUE scientists. it is their profession. their life.

everything else you read is just chasing a fantasy. chasing some sci-fi fantasy, that is driven by faith. no different than chasing a religious fantasy, driven by faith.



i'll give you a good example. an example i fall into myself. and im still unable to pull myself out. due to faith in technology.

the singularity and free energy. im totally into that shit. i really really hope it happens. but almost all real scientists laugh at that idea. its either not gonna happen or its super far away.
but i think its around the corner. i still firmly believe that, no matter how many scientists tell me its probably not right.
what is that? faith? yeah... it is faith. faith in science and technology. based on articles written by other faith based scientists, who are chasing a sci-fi fantasy. it's just all faith.

Last edited by Ulic Qel-Droma; 09-12-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:01 PM   #178
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:14 PM   #179
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^^^ except when its not true thanks to new discoveries or multiple conflicting theories/hypothesis
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:17 PM   #180
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Point maken. But science is a constant generation of ideas; some of which are discovered to be accurate, others less so. As long as you are willing to accept new information, science is only incomplete, never completely wrong.

And just to be clear, my mentality on "wrong" is "the opposite of something which can be proven through testing and is falsifiable." Wrong only comes from a final answer; and science doesn't have any of those. Not yet, and possibly not ever. There's always more to discover.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:23 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by observer View Post
There are two definitions of faith;

faith/fāTH/
Noun:
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

For us who like to reason, we obviously have no problem with 1, it's 2 that troubles us as we strongly value evidence over blind acceptance, that's all.

Faith | Define Faith at Dictionary.com

1. is also based on lacking proof

and Ulic put it best anyways
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:45 PM   #182
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Until you can answer "What is god?" and your evidence for such deity, you are doing the same thing as I am doing for Unicorns and Santa Claus.
It depends on your belief, but each religion has its own definition of God. For me, those characteristics defined by my religion can be experienced personally. It cannot be proven, because it is based on personal interpretation. Therefore, I don't think you can proof/disproof God based on scientific methods.

As for Santa Clause, unicorns, etc... Yes, you can say the same thing of them. However, it is pretty hard to personally experience and interpret unicorns, but Santa could work! Until you grown up enough that Santa (aka parents) seem to have stopped giving you presents, which breaks the definition for Santa and you stop believing in him.

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On another note, you were probably raised into Christianity. Don't you find that fascinating? Why Christianity over say, one of the religions in Mindbomber's list?
I'm not raised in a Christian family nor are were most of my friends who I met when I was young. I came to Christianity through God's revelation when I was going through a pretty tough time. You can call it coincidence of randomness that all the events in my life drew me to Christianity, but you know how I interpret it. =)
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #183
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I'm not raised in a Christian family nor are were most of my friends who I met when I was young. I came to Christianity through God's revelation when I was going through a pretty tough time. You can call it coincidence of randomness that all the events in my life drew me to Christianity, but you know how I interpret it. =)
If are a follower of Christianity, then you must believe the deities worshiped by other faiths are false. What aspect of Christianity do you believe is distinct from those faiths, making its teachings true while all others are false?
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:16 PM   #184
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but i play the devils advocate because pally777 doesnt seem like he's one of those extremist bible thumping zealots that believe jesus rode a dinosaur and all that. he seems to be getting at something bigger, beyond petty semantics. yet not a lot of people are following. they keep referring back to religious stories and what trailer trash KKK joe dirt believes in.
Thanks. I think finally someone understands my perspective. Everyone who is against religion or faith is basing their accusations on the extremists or history of the religion. Unfortunately, religion has gotten a pretty bad reputation from all the crazy things extremists have done in the past and even present (e.g. burning Qur'ans, Todd Akin's comments on legitimate rape <-- wtf?, etc...)

Let me apologize for all the crazy stuff that extremists say or do in the name of religion. Sorry! We are not all like them. There are people who have religious faith and are normal by most people's standards.

Anyways, when someone can proof or disproof God, then we can discuss again.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:20 PM   #185
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Thanks. I think finally someone understands my perspective. Everyone who is against religion or faith is basing their accusations on the extremists or history of the religion. Unfortunately, religion has gotten a pretty bad reputation from all the crazy things extremists have done in the past and even present (e.g. burning Qur'ans, Todd Akin's comments on legitimate rape <-- wtf?, etc...)

Let me apologize for all the crazy stuff that extremists say or do in the name of religion. Sorry! We are not all like them. There are people who have religious faith and are normal by most people's standards.

Anyways, when someone can proof or disproof God, then we can discuss again.
BTW, it's PROVE.. not proof. lol.

Anyway, people who make claims, the burden of proof is always on them.

You don't need to 'disprove' something that can't be proven in the first place.

IE. Unicorns. If I say they exist, I need to come up with concrete evidence of such an existence.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:26 PM   #186
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If are a follower of Christianity, then you must believe the deities worshiped by other faiths are false. What aspect of Christianity do you believe is distinct from those faiths, making its teachings true while all others are false?
Hmm... I don't think I have enough knowledge about the other religions to say why Christianity is the one true faith. I have briefly investigated Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, so I do have a bit of a comparison in mind.

What stands out for me about Christianity is love and grace. It is not a religion about personal gain; if anything it's about lost. It is the only religion I know where God seeks us rather than the other way around.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:38 PM   #187
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BTW, it's PROVE.. not proof. lol.
Thanks. I was thinking noun not verb for some reason.

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Anyway, people who make claims, the burden of proof is always on them.

You don't need to 'disprove' something that can't be proven in the first place.

IE. Unicorns. If I say they exist, I need to come up with concrete evidence of such an existence.
I'm not so concerned about the burden of proof since I can call God's existence a theory. Until it is proven or disproved, the theory is plausible. Basically, it is an unknown whether God exists or not.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:42 PM   #188
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Thanks. I think finally someone understands my perspective. Everyone who is against religion or faith is basing their accusations on the extremists or history of the religion. Unfortunately, religion has gotten a pretty bad reputation from all the crazy things extremists have done in the past and even present (e.g. burning Qur'ans, Todd Akin's comments on legitimate rape <-- wtf?, etc...)
To briefly clarify,

I do not judge religion, or those who are religious, on the history of religion or those who differ from the 'mainstream' of any given faith. I have very intelligent friends who practice Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, and Native American faiths, and I respect them regardless, and in some cases partly because of what they believe, even if I don't necessarily agree with them on that particular subject.

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Hmm... I don't think I have enough knowledge about the other religions to say why Christianity is the one true faith. I have briefly investigated Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, so I do have a bit of a comparison in mind.

What stands out for me about Christianity is love and grace. It is not a religion about personal gain; if anything it's about lost. It is the only religion I know where God seeks us rather than the other way around.
Indulge me in a brief comparison, please.

In Bahá'i - God created humans due to his love for them, and his love for his creatures gives them divine grace and eternal life. Bahá'í teachings also state that Bahá'ís should love all humans regardless of religion, race or community.

In Christianity - "The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8

What stands out to you in Christianity is love and grace.

What stands out to me in Christianity is the distinctly conditional nature of God's love, especially in comparison to other religions, such as Bahá'i, which preaches unconditional love and acceptance. I also take note of the importance of divine grace and its instillment in man, according to Bahá'i.

To be honest, in my opinion love is the least distinctive aspect of religion. I think an interesting way to illustrate that would be to compile a short list of deities devoted entirely to love in polytheistic religions, so here goes:

Prende,
Astghik,
Xochiquetzal,
Xochipilli,
Tlazolteotl,
Ixcuiname,
Tiacapan,
Teicu,
Tlaco,
Xocotzin,
Aizen Myō-ō,
Astarte,
Qetesh,
Aine,
Cliodhna,
Yue-Lao,
Tu Er Shen,
Bes,
Hathor,
Bastet,
Albina,
Turan
Aphrodite,
The Erotes,
Anteros,
Eros,
Himeros,
Hedylogos,
Pothos,
Peitho,
Kurupi,
Kamadeva,
Rati,
Milda,
Qandisa,
Frigg,
Freyja,
Freyr,
Sjöfn,
Cupid,
Venus,
Dogoda,
Dzydzilelya,
Lada,
Siebog,
Živa,
Baron La Croix,
Baron Samedi,
Erzulie Freda Dahomey,
Mami Wata,
Oshun;

that's a lot of love gods.

A very fundamental component of Judaism is that God seeks out man, so no, Christianity is not unique in that respect.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:32 AM   #189
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is that not semantics?

complete trust or confidence in SOMEONE or SOMETHING.
Yes, Faith is a difficult topic, and sometimes it depends on the degree as well.

However, there is a meaningful difference between faith in science and faith in religion.

Even though scientists have trust over certain theories in any given time, it's not static like a religious doctrine.

The essence of science as you know, lies in the approach, the method. The very nature of the scientific method means constant discoveries are expected to be made.

While Newton was the star, there was always room for Einstein to prove him inaccurate at high speed. Scientists encourage each other to prove themselves wrong without fighting or bloodshed.

Religions on the other hand, generally see themselves as the absolute truth, and followers are strongly discouraged to learn about other religions in the world.

Religion should be taught in school, but we should include all major belief systems as a subject in humanities and history, to help all of us better understand each others past and present.

The problem lies when religion interferes with science, resulting in a significant population not accepting evolution, which is quite a shame in the US.

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what needs to be done is to find the top intellectual leaders from BOTH sides.
but i have a feeling they'd just come to some kind of mutual agreement anyway.
The following discussions/debates take place all the time watched by many, the outcome may surprise you.


Last edited by observer; 09-13-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:48 PM   #190
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To briefly clarify,
In Christianity - "The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8

What stands out to you in Christianity is love and grace.

What stands out to me in Christianity is the distinctly conditional nature of God's love, especially in comparison to other religions, such as Bahá'i, which preaches unconditional love and acceptance. I also take note of the importance of divine grace and its instillment in man, according to Bahá'i.
Sorry if this sounds like rambling, but I am having a hard time articulating what I am trying to say, but here it goes.

God can be likened to a parent. He gets upset, wants the best for his children, and often goes underappreciated. We love it when good things happened to us and heap praise to the "god of love" or "god of success", but what he wants you to realize is that it came from the same place as the "god of discipline" or "god of natural disaster"

Parents get mad, they show love, they make things happen. As kids, would you "worship" those different aspects of them as separate beings? It's easy to love you dad when he's taking you fishing, but what about when he has taken away your video games?
For example: Your parents would not appreciate it if you only showed them love when they hand you your allowance, you may not at the time, but you should show appreciation when they discipline you as well. All these different aspects come from 1 being, and it’s the understanding and reciprocation of that love that God desires. How would your parents feel if you started calling someone else "Dad" or "Mom" after having bringing you into the world and raising you? Or you just straight up said you don’t even need them anymore? "I make my own money, I can stand on my own 2 feet, I don’t need you anymore" They'd be choked. I can only imagine what kind of pain a parent feels when a kid turns their back on them.

I believe the bible says that God is a jealous and even vengeful dude, and like a strict parent, he wants things done his way.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:48 PM   #191
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I came to Christianity through God's revelation when I was going through a pretty tough time. You can call it coincidence of randomness that all the events in my life drew me to Christianity, but you know how I interpret it. =)
It's not coincidence or randomness, people tend to seek a comforting agent when they're in the shits. Look at all the third world countries with intensely strong faiths. They're life is a complete wreck and they go to mass every Sunday. It's like a drug. The opiate of the people. I would say it's the same as drinking, smoking, partying, watching movies and just getting your mind of shit.

The problem with religion is, some people will expect fates and a guiding hand to lead them through life. I find it absolutely sad that people think they need the power of a deity to fight through life. Whatever you went through, Pally777, you fucking did it on your own.

If I can take away anything from being brought up as buddhist, schooled as a catholic, is that whatever god they speak of, that god is actually YOU. You do everything, you can create your own hell or heaven. Prayer...well that's just meditation, you're talking to yourself and clearing your mind for the answer that's already there. Fuck organized religions, be nice don't be a cunt. Spread knowledge not ignorance.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:55 PM   #192
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However, there is a meaningful difference between faith in science and faith in religion.

Even though scientists have trust over certain theories in any given time, it's not static like a religious doctrine.
There is a reason why scientific theories change over time. It's because our understanding of the world is becoming more accurate as we discover more. There is the underlying truth or knowledge about the universe that does not change. We play the role of trying to align our theories with those underlying truths.

In religion, the doctrines do not change because what is written is universal truth that spans all time. This truth is in regards to God's unchanging character, so of course doctrine does not change.

What does change in religion is our understanding of God's character. For me personally, my understanding of God becomes clearer with experience. I think it is the same with people's interpretation of doctrine, which changes as they understand more about God.

It's a subtle difference between the truth written in doctrine being unchanging and our understanding of that doctrine changing.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:05 PM   #193
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whatever god they speak of, that god is actually YOU. You do everything, you can create your own hell or heaven.
That's very high self-confidence. Not trying to insult you, but there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. I know where my abilities end and where opportunities have to be given. Even my basic abilities were born to me, not earned in some way (e.g. natural talent towards mathematics).

I do not believe the human race can save itself from its own eventual destruction. We see this throughout history that we always forget the past lessons and repeat the same mistakes. People throw statistics around that say our mortality rates are lower, standard of living is higher, etc... However, all that is relative. Sure you live longer, but is it a better life? Sure our standards of living are higher, but at the expense of what? Worst family relationships? Increase in material goods at the cost of quality time with friends/family? I think the best we can do is trade-offs... we better one aspect of life at the expense of another. Sort of like conservation of energy and other physical laws I guess.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:06 PM   #194
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Sorry if this sounds like rambling, but I am having a hard time articulating what I am trying to say, but here it goes.

God can be likened to a parent. He gets upset, wants the best for his children, and often goes underappreciated. We love it when good things happened to us and heap praise to the "god of love" or "god of success", but what he wants you to realize is that it came from the same place as the "god of discipline" or "god of natural disaster"

Parents get mad, they show love, they make things happen. As kids, would you "worship" those different aspects of them as separate beings? It's easy to love you dad when he's taking you fishing, but what about when he has taken away your video games?
For example: Your parents would not appreciate it if you only showed them love when they hand you your allowance, you may not at the time, but you should show appreciation when they discipline you as well. All these different aspects come from 1 being, and it’s the understanding and reciprocation of that love that God desires. How would your parents feel if you started calling someone else "Dad" or "Mom" after having bringing you into the world and raising you? Or you just straight up said you don’t even need them anymore? "I make my own money, I can stand on my own 2 feet, I don’t need you anymore" They'd be choked. I can only imagine what kind of pain a parent feels when a kid turns their back on them.

I believe the bible says that God is a jealous and even vengeful dude, and like a strict parent, he wants things done his way.
My parents love me regardless of my cowardly moments; they do not condemn me for them, they support me through them.

My parents love me regardless of what I believe; I am a free thinking individual, capable of error, whose parents raised me to explore the world and draw my own conclusions rather than simply accept what is told to me; leaving my Christian upbringing in my past is a result of that. My departure from Christianity may have been in error, but they would never condemn me for the result of something they raised me to be capable of.

My parents love me regardless of my being vile, by the biblical definition of it; after all, if I were homosexual or muslim, there would be no legitimate reason to look down on me, would there?

My parents love me regardless of being sexually immoral; I am sexually immoral, but my parents do not condemn me for participating in an act that does harm to no one, but creates pleasure for all those involved.

My parents love me regardless of practicing magical arts; my parents encourage my intellectual expansion, how could they not, the most characteristic quality of humanity is the desire to further our knowledge and understanding of the universe.

My parents love me regardless of idolizing other figures; it is through the inspiration of those who I idolize that I am driven to achievement.

Jealousy and vengefulness are the opposite of love.

My parents love me. Christianity preaches a God who desires to smother the very characteristics, he, as the creator, instilled in me.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:52 PM   #195
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In Bahá'i - God created humans due to his love for them, and his love for his creatures gives them divine grace and eternal life. Bahá'í teachings also state that Bahá'ís should love all humans regardless of religion, race or community.

In Christianity - "The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8
I read up on Wikipedia about Bahá'i and I see that it's sort of an all encompassing religion that accepts all other religions represented by Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, etc... It seems like a "let's accept everyone into the club" religion.

The problem with that is there is no universal truth that does not change. It tries to change God's message according to the times. Does that mean one day what's principal can be overwritten the next day? These messengers that God supposedly sends have obviously different principals.

I believe God does not change with time and does not have changing characteristics. If God sends different messengers to represent his character at different periods in human history, then it's not monotheistic. It's just trying to incorporate polytheism under a monotheistic banner. A schizophrenic God is what we'd have.

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What stands out to you in Christianity is love and grace.

What stands out to me in Christianity is the distinctly conditional nature of God's love, especially in comparison to other religions, such as Bahá'i, which preaches unconditional love and acceptance. I also take note of the importance of divine grace and its instillment in man, according to Bahá'i.
I don't agree that Christianity says God has conditional love; it's the contrary. It takes more than just a forum discussion to really understand this. It takes reading the Bible from cover to cover and studying the meaning and purpose of each book within the Bible. There's a general theme that cannot be grasped by reading bits and pieces.

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To be honest, in my opinion love is the least distinctive aspect of religion.
To me love is a very important aspect. It is a force that compels people to be selfless and do what is right. It is the epitome of any relationship (family or marriage). It is something that everyone ultimately desires to feel truly satisfied with life.

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A very fundamental component of Judaism is that God seeks out man, so no, Christianity is not unique in that respect.
Well, you have to understand that Christianity is really a continuation of Judaism. That's why Judaism also has "God seeks out man". The same relationship can be drawn between Islam and Christianity. I see these faiths as different perspectives of the same God.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:04 AM   #196
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My parents love me regardless of my cowardly moments; they do not condemn me for them, they support me through them.

My parents love me regardless of what I believe; I am a free thinking individual, capable of error, whose parents raised me to explore the world and draw my own conclusions rather than simply accept what is told to me; leaving my Christian upbringing in my past is a result of that. My departure from Christianity may have been in error, but they would never condemn me for the result of something they raised me to be capable of.

My parents love me regardless of my being vile, by the biblical definition of it; after all, if I were homosexual or muslim, there would be no legitimate reason to look down on me, would there?

My parents love me regardless of being sexually immoral; I am sexually immoral, but my parents do not condemn me for participating in an act that does harm to no one, but creates pleasure for all those involved.

My parents love me regardless of practicing magical arts; my parents encourage my intellectual expansion, how could they not, the most characteristic quality of humanity is the desire to further our knowledge and understanding of the universe.

My parents love me regardless of idolizing other figures; it is through the inspiration of those who I idolize that I am driven to achievement.

Jealousy and vengefulness are the opposite of love.

My parents love me. Christianity preaches a God who desires to smother the very characteristics, he, as the creator, instilled in me.
I can tell you God loves you also regardless of how many sinful (His definition) things you do. That is why He sent Jesus to die for our sins as payment for our deserving punishment.

You have to understand the the characteristic of God. God is loving and forgiving, but He is also just. Justice means that if there is wrong done, then punishment must be given. It's like what was said... God is a father figure who loves you, but must also discipline you at the same time.

Let me get one thing straight though, God did not make us the way we are now. We have been corrupted from our original perfection, which He allowed to happen, because He gave us free-will to make decisions. He gave us free-will, because that's the only way love can exist. And love is the whole reason He created us at all.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:05 AM   #197
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hey pally777: here's a question for ya.

have you ever thought about the fact that the chance of someone following a particular religion is based mostly on where you were born and raised?

for example if you were born in a middle eastern country you are overwhelming likely to be a follower of Islam and if you are in north america the chances of you being a christian is high. likewise asian countries and buddhism.

so if you believe non-followers of christianity goes to hell (if you do, that is), how is that fair to everybody else on earth? they don't choose where they were born.

matter of fact, most religious people are born into their religions, rather than deciding themselves they wanted to pursue a certain religion.

like richard dawkins said, don't force your kids into religion. let them grow up and make up their own mind.



also: as a follow up.

how do you explain all the pain and suffering in this world if god really loves us that much? i mean just take a scroll through the internet.. go through any one of those beheading videos and tell me how there really is a god. there are plenty of bad stuff that happens in this world, in countries you probably can't even spell, that will go unnoticed through history. how many people have been murdered and tortured throughout history, like during the spanish inquisition and all that. how can you still say god is just? if he can just let all those people suffer through so much pain.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:34 AM   #198
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I read up on Wikipedia about Bahá'i and I see that it's sort of an all encompassing religion that accepts all other religions represented by Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, etc... It seems like a "let's accept everyone into the club" religion.

The problem with that is there is no universal truth that does not change. It tries to change God's message according to the times. Does that mean one day what's principal can be overwritten the next day? These messengers that God supposedly sends have obviously different principals.

I believe God does not change with time and does not have changing characteristics. If God sends different messengers to represent his character at different periods in human history, then it's not monotheistic. It's just trying to incorporate polytheism under a monotheistic banner. A schizophrenic God is what we'd have.
God's message has never been preached with any degree of uniformity, and is in a constant state of evolution to suit the contemporary views held by society.

Today hundreds of different denominations and sects of Christianity exist, all preaching very different principles.

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I don't agree that Christianity says God has conditional love; it's the contrary. It takes more than just a forum discussion to really understand this. It takes reading the Bible from cover to cover and studying the meaning and purpose of each book within the Bible. There's a general theme that cannot be grasped by reading bits and pieces.
I've read the Bible cover to cover more than once, studied the meaning and purpose of each book, and my view that God's love is highly conditional is unchanging. At one point I was a councillor at a Christian camp, there's one bit of evidence that I am very well versed in the Bible's teachings.

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To me love is a very important aspect. It is a force that compels people to be selfless and do what is right. It is the epitome of any relationship (family or marriage). It is something that everyone ultimately desires to feel truly satisfied with life.
Yes, love is a very important aspect in many religions.

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Well, you have to understand that Christianity is really a continuation of Judaism. That's why Judaism also has "God seeks out man". The same relationship can be drawn between Islam and Christianity. I see these faiths as different perspectives of the same God.
Regardless, Judaism and Christianity are distinct faiths. I originally asked what aspect of Christianity makes it true, while all others are false, you cited the fact that in Christianity God seeks out man, but that's not unique and therefore cannot alone be a reason for Christianity to be the one true faith.


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I can tell you God loves you also regardless of how many sinful (His definition) things you do. That is why He sent Jesus to die for our sins as payment for our deserving punishment.

You have to understand the the characteristic of God. God is loving and forgiving, but He is also just. Justice means that if there is wrong done, then punishment must be given. It's like what was said... God is a father figure who loves you, but must also discipline you at the same time.

Let me get one thing straight though, God did not make us the way we are now. We have been corrupted from our original perfection, which He allowed to happen, because He gave us free-will to make decisions. He gave us free-will, because that's the only way love can exist. And love is the whole reason He created us at all.
For the sake of argument, I'll agree God loves me and an extension of that is the need to exert discipline.

As discipline for my sins I must be consigned to a fiery lake of burning sulfur, wait, what?

I would never condemn any person to a fiery lake of burning sulfur for eternity.

Committing a sin of sexual immorality does not equal being consigned to a fiery lake of burning sulfur, the punishment is far more severe than any sin committed by man could ever be.

Last edited by MindBomber; 09-14-2012 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:38 AM   #199
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In religion, the doctrines do not change because what is written is universal truth that spans all time. This truth is in regards to God's unchanging character, so of course doctrine does not change.

What does change in religion is our understanding of God's character. For me personally, my understanding of God becomes clearer with experience. I think it is the same with people's interpretation of doctrine, which changes as they understand more about God.
I agree it is important not to take the wording literally, however certain verses in the Bible just seem wrong, regardless how one interprets them:

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:38 AM   #200
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My parents love me regardless of my cowardly moments; they do not condemn me for them, they support me through them.

My parents love me regardless of what I believe; I am a free thinking individual, capable of error, whose parents raised me to explore the world and draw my own conclusions rather than simply accept what is told to me; leaving my Christian upbringing in my past is a result of that. My departure from Christianity may have been in error, but they would never condemn me for the result of something they raised me to be capable of.

My parents love me regardless of my being vile, by the biblical definition of it; after all, if I were homosexual or muslim, there would be no legitimate reason to look down on me, would there?

My parents love me regardless of being sexually immoral; I am sexually immoral, but my parents do not condemn me for participating in an act that does harm to no one, but creates pleasure for all those involved.

My parents love me regardless of practicing magical arts; my parents encourage my intellectual expansion, how could they not, the most characteristic quality of humanity is the desire to further our knowledge and understanding of the universe.

My parents love me regardless of idolizing other figures; it is through the inspiration of those who I idolize that I am driven to achievement.

Jealousy and vengefulness are the opposite of love.

My parents love me. Christianity preaches a God who desires to smother the very characteristics, he, as the creator, instilled in me.
This. This is Christianity.
Your parents unconditional love requires what? only that you call them mom/dad/Father and you call yourself their son in return. Nothing else.
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